WvW Arrow Cart Nerfing

[Israel.7056]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > This nerf isn't enough. Hope there are more nerfs to defenders in the future since it's killing this game. No1 wants to spend their raid hitting doors and walls for hours. SMC also needs to be nerfed.

> > >

> > > I fail to see how making it easier to break into structures is going to do anything other than keep you hitting doors and walls. The folks in there are not coming out to fight, do really think that if you get in faster you'll what? Take em by surprise? They'll just port to citadel sooner.

> > >

> > > Nerfing AC fire is not going to create the outcome that you want.

> >

> > What's the point of playing if you're just gonna sit in keeps and spawns all day? I just don't get it.... sounds super boring

>

> Agreed. It's boring as hell.

>

> But the point stands: if they won't come out when they outnumber you, they won't come out when they don't.

 

Then they deserve to lose all their things until they grow a spine don't you think?

[Israel.7056]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> All this call for nerfing AC I am sure everyone has noticed when SMC is held by the dominant server it is always loaded with AC and siege , waiting for fights?? ok if you want fights put no seige then you can defend with your superior forces , instead of talking the talk try walking the walk PUT up or shut up about siege time you lads grew a set. Make SMC a seige free zone remove cannons and mortars ,NO siege can be placed even on 3rd floor.

 

I never build siege but I can't control what others do. Servers are not a hive mind.

[Usagi.4835]

The meme that is oft circulated about YB being _the_ arrow cart server is precisely that: a meme. Mag (and really any other server, barring FA who can't build siege to save their lives) were just as bad.

 

Though I think it's a bit late for this and imagine they don't have the time, I think it would've been vastly more helpful if the devs actually played WvW at both small and large scales, rather than sifting through forum threads trying to decide what's actually relevant. People have complained about population imbalance and this patch has actually exacerbated the issue and leaves room to wonder what direction ANet has for the mode.

 

For all the talk about how easy it is to defend, it's ironic that shield gens are almost always used when attacking keeps to cover rams and make it impossible to kill them unless you have equal numbers. Suggestions about ballistas on the edge of walls are impractical. They've also just gutted staff eles over two to three patches. I think it's kind of dishonest to claim you want fights when, really, what you want is to farm bags and train over people.

 

In the context of trying to defend while outmanned, pre-patch, it was pointless defending paper towers against zergs because, even if they didn't build shield gens, you wouldn't have time to get siege up. Superior acs didn't do nearly enough damage to rams to make a difference and it was worse still if firebrands were manning them. Post-patch, I managed to get a superior ram down to 94% health with a superior ac over the space of a minute. I can get behind siege doing less damage to players, and agree that people need to be more proactive about defense by using supply traps and flipping camps (the importance of good roamers who can win fights is a separate topic) but again, with regards to population imbalance, **how does this help if you play during an outnumbered timezone?**

 

 

[Israel.7056]

I've read what you have said now let me tell you what you really meant despite what you've said. Poor argumentation tactics my friend.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

> @"Usagi.4835" said:

> The meme that is oft circulated about YB being _the_ arrow cart server is precisely that: a meme. Mag (and really any other server, barring FA who can't build siege to save their lives) were just as bad.

>

>

 

It's not a meme when I have witnessed 30+ YB sit in a T3 Bay on arrow carts while a group of about 30 is outside of Bay, literally just throwing down siege looking for a fight. Most other servers build siege, that is true. But most other servers actually come out to fight when they have comparable numbers, not YB though, sorry not sorry.

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > All this call for nerfing AC I am sure everyone has noticed when SMC is held by the dominant server it is always loaded with AC and siege , waiting for fights?? ok if you want fights put no seige then you can defend with your superior forces , instead of talking the talk try walking the walk PUT up or shut up about siege time you lads grew a set. Make SMC a seige free zone remove cannons and mortars ,NO siege can be placed even on 3rd floor.

>

> I never build siege but I can't control what others do. Servers are not a hive mind.

 

Always an easy out for some I guess ,well done.

[bunnyblender.8954]

I once saw a zerg (server shall remain nameless but you can probably guess which one it was) run into a durios and almost within 30 seconds they had 4 arrow carts, deployed, built, manned and firing before the enemy zerg even arrived at the tower. It was almost like the players were on autopilot and instinctively went straight to building and manning whatever siege they could. The most disappointing thing about it was that they outnumbered the enemy zerg that was chasing them.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

 

 

> It isn't more about skill than about to invest time and motivation in this game mode (but yeah playing h24 scout is boring for me.). That said, average defenders who know how to use weapon/trap at the right moment and give information in map are way more skilled than the average metabatle copy/paste blob spam 1 leechers who only touch a third of WvW.

 

Well, I mean sure, blobbing isn't a skill either, but we're kinda setting the bar low.

 

Defensive metas only lead to degenerate gameplay because it punishes people for taking initiative. It just means everything gets taken 10 minutes after people log off. On a lesser level, we can see this in former bunker metas in pvp and pirate ship metas in WvW. It becomes about who gets bored first. There is practically no difference between some veterans on arrow carts and someone that picked up the game last week. It actually devalues defending as a whole if anyone can do it.

 

Besides, we're talking specifically about arrow carts here. Sure blobbing is dumbed down, but so is defense. One doesn't justify the other.

 

Currently the system is broken due to population imbalance, and because this system will be replaced for a new one that will balance population better, there should be much less of a problem with outnumbered defending in the first place. And in that case, there doesn't need to be such large force multipliers. We shouldn't design things around things that do not work.

 

> The ease of setting a trap is more profession dependant than skill dependant.

 

It's easier on some classes than others, but I'd say it's more build dependent than class dependent since all classes have some way of mobility and negating damage. Of course, having the proper build and class for the right occasion is a skill of and itself.

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > All this call for nerfing AC I am sure everyone has noticed when SMC is held by the dominant server it is always loaded with AC and siege , waiting for fights?? ok if you want fights put no seige then you can defend with your superior forces , instead of talking the talk try walking the walk PUT up or shut up about siege time you lads grew a set. Make SMC a seige free zone remove cannons and mortars ,NO siege can be placed even on 3rd floor.

> >

> > I never build siege but I can't control what others do. Servers are not a hive mind.

>

> Always an easy out for some I guess ,well done.

 

Well when you figure out mind control let me know how it works thanks.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Tell you what. If you guys want to nerf ACs all to hell and back then we need to make WPs uncontestable and Double the HP and Toughness on Lords.

 

I wouldn't mind if they went back to having a window where WPs can't be contested. Extra health/tough on lords? Well, that's not even that big of a deal given power creep.

 

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> All this call for nerfing AC I am sure everyone has noticed when SMC is held by the dominant server it is always loaded with AC and siege , waiting for fights??

 

This is an argument for nerfing ACs. Because the dominant server can just devote a piece of its blob to hold off any ninjas and distractions, there is almost no chance of taking it once it gets upgraded.

[Usagi.4835]

> @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> It's not a meme when I have witnessed 30+ YB sit in a T3 Bay on arrow carts while a group of about 30 is outside of Bay, literally just throwing down siege looking for a fight. Most other servers build siege, that is true. But most other servers actually come out to fight when they have comparable numbers, not YB though, sorry not sorry.

Bit of a moot point; YB is neither the worst nor the only offender. It might not be siege-related but here's a start: get rid of junk like Iron Hide guards and Dragon Banners. That stuff shouldn't be in the game.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > > This nerf isn't enough. Hope there are more nerfs to defenders in the future since it's killing this game. No1 wants to spend their raid hitting doors and walls for hours. SMC also needs to be nerfed.

> > > >

> > > > I fail to see how making it easier to break into structures is going to do anything other than keep you hitting doors and walls. The folks in there are not coming out to fight, do really think that if you get in faster you'll what? Take em by surprise? They'll just port to citadel sooner.

> > > >

> > > > Nerfing AC fire is not going to create the outcome that you want.

> > >

> > > What's the point of playing if you're just gonna sit in keeps and spawns all day? I just don't get it.... sounds super boring

> >

> > Agreed. It's boring as hell.

> >

> > But the point stands: if they won't come out when they outnumber you, they won't come out when they don't.

>

> Then they deserve to lose all their things until they grow a spine don't you think?

 

Yes.

 

Which is anethema to the people who want the fights....

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> > > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > > > This nerf isn't enough. Hope there are more nerfs to defenders in the future since it's killing this game. No1 wants to spend their raid hitting doors and walls for hours. SMC also needs to be nerfed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I fail to see how making it easier to break into structures is going to do anything other than keep you hitting doors and walls. The folks in there are not coming out to fight, do really think that if you get in faster you'll what? Take em by surprise? They'll just port to citadel sooner.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nerfing AC fire is not going to create the outcome that you want.

> > > >

> > > > What's the point of playing if you're just gonna sit in keeps and spawns all day? I just don't get it.... sounds super boring

> > >

> > > Agreed. It's boring as hell.

> > >

> > > But the point stands: if they won't come out when they outnumber you, they won't come out when they don't.

> >

> > Then they deserve to lose all their things until they grow a spine don't you think?

>

> Yes.

>

> Which is anethema to the people who want the fights....

 

But the "fight" crowd isn't looking to fight unless they outnumber their opponent. Which is why they siege smc up, run around flipping paper objects farming smaller groups until their smc trebs crack open a T3 outer tower, than zerg it down. Or, they drop siege "near" the tower to take, knowing that even if the enemy does come out to "face them", the enemy force is half or less of their size...they are guaranteed victory in either case. It's what we see year after year. People bandwagon to a server, so they can have "fights", yet they only want to fight when they have 100% chance of winning due to numbers. When they lose at equal fights, they log out and then bandwagon to the next server in lower tiers to ride the numbers back to the top "looking for fights".

[Evolute.6239]

People who are saying they won’t be able to defend keeps against blob servers: good? That’s quite literally what the tier system is for?

 

We have servers in T1 and T2 who have .5 KDA and still win or sustain the matchup despite literally feeding because they’re able to PPT keeps.

 

If you and your server can’t command and get a group going.. maybe you should be in tier 4 or 5?

 

In regards to bandwagon fight servers.. lmao. Whatever you say, bud. I’ve done my fair share of setting up a billion catas hoping for any response. If they can’t respond, we should get the keep, not be bored for two hours against arrow carts. If nobody responds, these guilds tend to tag down after ktraining. Your hate should be towards the groups who literally blitzkreig ktrain maps and port of any response comes. Not the guilds who only attack keeps to get players to fight.

 

If you don’t like those “fight guilds” then get out of the bloody tiers that they are in and go to the tiers your server deserves to be in.

[Ceistebi.4023]

> @"Evolute.6239" said:

> People who are saying they won’t be able to defend keeps against blob servers: good? That’s quite literally what the tier system is for?

>

> We have servers in T1 and T2 who have .5 KDA and still win or sustain the matchup despite literally feeding because they’re able to PPT keeps.

>

> If you and your server can’t command and get a group going.. maybe you should be in tier 4 or 5?

>

> In regards to bandwagon fight servers.. lmao. Whatever you say, bud. I’ve done my fair share of setting up a billion catas hoping for any response. If they can’t respond, we should get the keep, not be bored for two hours against arrow carts. If nobody responds, these guilds tend to tag down after ktraining. Your hate should be towards the groups who literally blitzkreig ktrain maps and port of any response comes. Not the guilds who only attack keeps to get players to fight.

>

> If you don’t like those “fight guilds” then get out of the bloody tiers that they are in and go to the tiers your server deserves to be in.

 

I'm on a t4 server, can't go any lower. We don't have the numbers that some of our enemies do and never will be able to cover all of the BL's with our own blobs like other servers can. It requires crying for help from our EBG group most nights just to defend home BL. Keeps should be hard to break into, and there are often multiple ways to succeed at it as well. Sneaking in, hiding mesmers, draining supply, etc. We plebs in t4 find a way, but we can't do anything about TC running through our BL with 40+ people when we barely have that on EBG and people want to just fight over SMC all night. You can say that we should just then lose all our stuff, but that further encourages ktrains/blobs and forces people out of WvW.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> > > > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > > > > This nerf isn't enough. Hope there are more nerfs to defenders in the future since it's killing this game. No1 wants to spend their raid hitting doors and walls for hours. SMC also needs to be nerfed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I fail to see how making it easier to break into structures is going to do anything other than keep you hitting doors and walls. The folks in there are not coming out to fight, do really think that if you get in faster you'll what? Take em by surprise? They'll just port to citadel sooner.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nerfing AC fire is not going to create the outcome that you want.

> > > > >

> > > > > What's the point of playing if you're just gonna sit in keeps and spawns all day? I just don't get it.... sounds super boring

> > > >

> > > > Agreed. It's boring as hell.

> > > >

> > > > But the point stands: if they won't come out when they outnumber you, they won't come out when they don't.

> > >

> > > Then they deserve to lose all their things until they grow a spine don't you think?

> >

> > Yes.

> >

> > Which is anethema to the people who want the fights....

>

> But the "fight" crowd isn't looking to fight unless they outnumber their opponent. Which is why they siege smc up, run around flipping paper objects farming smaller groups until their smc trebs crack open a T3 outer tower, than zerg it down. Or, they drop siege "near" the tower to take, knowing that even if the enemy does come out to "face them", the enemy force is half or less of their size...they are guaranteed victory in either case. It's what we see year after year. People bandwagon to a server, so they can have "fights", yet they only want to fight when they have 100% chance of winning due to numbers. When they lose at equal fights, they log out and then bandwagon to the next server in lower tiers to ride the numbers back to the top "looking for fights".

 

Couldn’t agree more. All these keyboard superheroes always front and say they want a fight, but never bring less than a map blob and then some. And yet when you visit their keeps, towers and camps, it’s sieged up more than Fort Knox. But of course, they love to “fight”.

[MilkChocolate.3201]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> The sad thing is, even with the nerfs to siege, so called "fight" servers are still using spies to prematurely use EWPs followed by a full map blob. And then they have the nerve to say they're here looking for fights when they disabled one of the key ways to get them. So which one is it? You want actual hard/even fights? Or you want to just map blob and ktrain? Yes, looking at you Whiteside Ridge.

 

WSR didnt have have main fighting com to even tag up for last +4days just cuz piken/kodash cant even form more than 30man squad, or if they do it gets wiped in less than 1sec in open field (with ac's behind)

so all i can see currently WSR is running random com tags and ppl are ktraining cuz there is simply no1 to fight

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > > > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> > > > > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > > > > > > This nerf isn't enough. Hope there are more nerfs to defenders in the future since it's killing this game. No1 wants to spend their raid hitting doors and walls for hours. SMC also needs to be nerfed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I fail to see how making it easier to break into structures is going to do anything other than keep you hitting doors and walls. The folks in there are not coming out to fight, do really think that if you get in faster you'll what? Take em by surprise? They'll just port to citadel sooner.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nerfing AC fire is not going to create the outcome that you want.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What's the point of playing if you're just gonna sit in keeps and spawns all day? I just don't get it.... sounds super boring

> > > > >

> > > > > Agreed. It's boring as hell.

> > > > >

> > > > > But the point stands: if they won't come out when they outnumber you, they won't come out when they don't.

> > > >

> > > > Then they deserve to lose all their things until they grow a spine don't you think?

> > >

> > > Yes.

> > >

> > > Which is anethema to the people who want the fights....

> >

> > But the "fight" crowd isn't looking to fight unless they outnumber their opponent. Which is why they siege smc up, run around flipping paper objects farming smaller groups until their smc trebs crack open a T3 outer tower, than zerg it down. Or, they drop siege "near" the tower to take, knowing that even if the enemy does come out to "face them", the enemy force is half or less of their size...they are guaranteed victory in either case. It's what we see year after year. People bandwagon to a server, so they can have "fights", yet they only want to fight when they have 100% chance of winning due to numbers. When they lose at equal fights, they log out and then bandwagon to the next server in lower tiers to ride the numbers back to the top "looking for fights".

>

> Couldn’t agree more. All these keyboard superheroes always front and say they want a fight, but never bring less than a map blob and then some. And yet when you visit their keeps, towers and camps, it’s sieged up more than Fort Knox. But of course, they love to “fight”.

 

This exactly. I have been in the lands where we equal numbers to the enemy or at least close and had fmultiple fights. The enemy loses a few fights and calls in help from other Borderlands. Of a sudden we outnumbered facing the blob.

 

Guess what. The fights STOP.

 

The reason why people move to higher tier servers , is not for the fights. It for the numbers around them so they can win the fight.

 

 

[Israel.7056]

Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

 

We are on AC's because there are 5 of us and 50 of you outside the tower. What the fuck else are we supposed to do. That time on siege is after we managed to get IN the tower because the 30 by the gate couldn't kill us before we got in and the other 20 were chasing who knows what or goofing off. We get to pull invul (oh wait, nvm the blob troll already hit that 1 minute before the blob showed), than hop on ac's hoping to kill the few clueless pugs in full glass builds before the "fight blob" ktrain flips the tower. Maybe, on a good day, our 30-40 man appears (cause it's prime time and people are on) and chases off the "fight blob" because they really just wanted the tower, not a fight. Literally, as soon as swords appear anywhere else on the map, the blob reappears to quickly flip the tower.

 

It's the same every time at every tier. I just rode a link all the way back in to T1 and back down to T4 again, and every blob is doing the same thing. Watch the fight guilds that stream, sure they skirmish some here and there, but stop the second the enemy fields an equal number and kills them, that's when "they have to call it, it's been a long day", regardless of whether that is 30 minutes or 4 hours in to their stream. My favorite is when the fight guild streamer says "you know I never do this" and drops AC's all over lord's room. Yet, I watch their stream often, and they do it just like every one else does...every time they "need" to win the fight, because at that moment they weren't.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

 

The same can be said about groups of 5+ that chase 1 single person. For every instance that people are reporting strolling past some objective being fired at by a person on an ac, I can report 5 times that number being chased by roaming groups of "fight guilds". There's no difference, neither are looking for a fight, they're looking for points, participation, achievements, a bag or maybe they're just too bad to fight even numbers and only go after what they can probably kill, or if not kill, take to the forums and complain about that players teleports, movement speed, walls, gates and how the player got into said gate in the hopes that next time their bag won't get away.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"MilkChocolate.3201" said:

> > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > The sad thing is, even with the nerfs to siege, so called "fight" servers are still using spies to prematurely use EWPs followed by a full map blob. And then they have the nerve to say they're here looking for fights when they disabled one of the key ways to get them. So which one is it? You want actual hard/even fights? Or you want to just map blob and ktrain? Yes, looking at you Whiteside Ridge.

>

> WSR didnt have have main fighting com to even tag up for last +4days just cuz piken/kodash cant even form more than 30man squad, or if they do it gets wiped in less than 1sec in open field (with ac's behind)

> so all i can see currently WSR is running random com tags and ppl are ktraining cuz there is simply no1 to fight

 

Bandwagoning doesn’t seem so good now, does it?

 

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

 

Yes, because 5 or 10v50 would be considered a “fight”. I’ve only seen a few guilds that have the talent to blob bust and theyre few and far between. Xv50 isn’t a fight. Its a bag farm.

 

[MilkChocolate.3201]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"MilkChocolate.3201" said:

> > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > The sad thing is, even with the nerfs to siege, so called "fight" servers are still using spies to prematurely use EWPs followed by a full map blob. And then they have the nerve to say they're here looking for fights when they disabled one of the key ways to get them. So which one is it? You want actual hard/even fights? Or you want to just map blob and ktrain? Yes, looking at you Whiteside Ridge.

> >

> > WSR didnt have have main fighting com to even tag up for last +4days just cuz piken/kodash cant even form more than 30man squad, or if they do it gets wiped in less than 1sec in open field (with ac's behind)

> > so all i can see currently WSR is running random com tags and ppl are ktraining cuz there is simply no1 to fight

>

> Bandwagoning doesn’t seem so good now, does it?

>

 

hoping to get vabbi matchup to have long and intense fights, last time MS ruined that matchup totally...

[joneirikb.7506]

All this talk about 5vs50 and other outnumbered situations, as well as how "fight blobs" and "AC defenders" ruin the game mode of others are valid concerns and deserving of a own topic. But essentially off-topic in this one.

 

That said, just reading through all this: This is exactly what WvW is, because the way it is designed (24/7, drop in/out, population, coverage, fairweather, server structure/size, objectives attempting to incentive fights but being too meaningless save a few points, no team comp, etc). Honestly the easiest and probably only way to solve those problems is sPvP, essentially sPvP solves *most* of those issues, and there is a reason why WvW was made to be a casual pvp mode, and not a serious/hardcore one, it's in the design. So it becomes a little bit silly to complain about it (now, or ever).

 

This game mode (WvW) is mean to be a PVP similar mode to PVE Open World Tyria. As usual, no design/game design survives first contact with players. All the complaining on the forums (or elsewhere) isn't going to change how players plays the game mode or how they want to play it, nor to make people come out of towers/keeps to get farmed. And all knee-jerk suggestions about "remove AC" and "punish players for Zerging", if implemented would just make players stop going to WvW, and we'd be stuck with 10 roamers on each side, spread out over coverage.