Will Rytlock ever get called out for his actions?

[Loesh.4697]

 

 

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > OP you keep skirting around the point and the only people agreeing with you seeming to be radically anti-charr or anti-Rytlock or both is -very- telling. There's also the matter of Glint having a part in this, she could have told Rytlock who the old man was but didn't. If anything it was probably her fault, because Rytlock is a herald explicitly and it can be assumed Glint talks to him. Unless Balthazar already had Lyssa's mirror at this point which would make it so Glint could be fooled too.

> >

> > I mean what am I skirting around that people are saying? That Rytlock viewed it as irrelevant and therefore he didn't need to tell us? that if he did tell us it wouldn't mattered and so it's okay? I acknowledge these points, I just plain disagree with them and they don't resonate with my morality.

> >

> > It's kind of funny that you'd mention people being Anti-Charr and Anti-Rytlock agreeing with me, because unless i'm mistaken I don't think _anyone_ has agreed with me. Which I hardly mind, my goal isn't to get the approval of the masses it's to see if anyone can actually fashion together a convincing reason for the sake of discussion that i'd view his actions as okay.

>

> My issue is: youve dismissed the given reasons that many people find okay and accepting of as totally nonsense.

>

> Itd be like if the medics in WW1 that treated dozens of soldiers, and the one who treated Adolf kitten should be blamed for Adolf kitten rising to power. Obviously not, he was just another soldier who was wounded. Balthazar was just another spirit in the mists to Rytlock, its a very very similiar thing.

 

I think there's a strict difference between disagreeing with reasoning, and thinking it's nonsense. I can feel that saying that Rytlock shouldn't of told us anything is irrational, but still see the mechanics that arrive at that conclusion.

 

The primary difference between the scenario you gave, and Rytlock is that the medic who treated Adolf Hitler was never asked not to treat him because he was going to do X horrible thing in the future. It's an extremely imperfect analogy just because of the actual mechanics of the situation. Rytlock was asked and he refused, he knew we were curious, he knew presumably that a functional squad needs information passed between it to work. He chose not to speak to us immediately, fair enough we had pressing things and was confused.

 

But months pass, bits of information possibly including that become classified by the Citadel which also would presumably indicate it's important. A god is unveiled and he might be getting an incing, still doesn't tell us or send a letter. PoF happens and he's STILL putting thing s together but despite his suspicions, he's not willing to share. He reveals it only, _only_ when it's confirmed by Balthazar himself and it's too late to do anything with it.

 

You see where i'm getting at? The situation you presented has no impetus, there's nothing pushing the medic to feel that Adolf is different then anyone else, not much anyway. But for Rytlock there was signposting, there was months of signposting, and either he didn't tell us because of himself or because of the Citadel. To add insult to injury it doesn't really have any consequences for him. Recalling the memory does not bring Rytlock into an emotional breakdown(He seems mildly annoyed if anything, as if inconvenienced by the retelling.) and the Citadel doesn't come after him, though possibly because the Commander doesn't say it to anyone else.

 

And that's why the 'it's irrelevant' argument doesn't work for me. There's not apparent reason for him to not tell us, he gets several things that point to him maybe telling us and by his own admission he seems to be putting things together, and then he admits only way beyond the point of it's too late. If Balthazar never called him friend, how much longer until he told us? Would he of *ever* told us?

 

So you see, that reasoning is like pushing a square peg into a round hole, it just doesn't work.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

>

>

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > OP you keep skirting around the point and the only people agreeing with you seeming to be radically anti-charr or anti-Rytlock or both is -very- telling. There's also the matter of Glint having a part in this, she could have told Rytlock who the old man was but didn't. If anything it was probably her fault, because Rytlock is a herald explicitly and it can be assumed Glint talks to him. Unless Balthazar already had Lyssa's mirror at this point which would make it so Glint could be fooled too.

> > >

> > > I mean what am I skirting around that people are saying? That Rytlock viewed it as irrelevant and therefore he didn't need to tell us? that if he did tell us it wouldn't mattered and so it's okay? I acknowledge these points, I just plain disagree with them and they don't resonate with my morality.

> > >

> > > It's kind of funny that you'd mention people being Anti-Charr and Anti-Rytlock agreeing with me, because unless i'm mistaken I don't think _anyone_ has agreed with me. Which I hardly mind, my goal isn't to get the approval of the masses it's to see if anyone can actually fashion together a convincing reason for the sake of discussion that i'd view his actions as okay.

> >

> > My issue is: youve dismissed the given reasons that many people find okay and accepting of as totally nonsense.

> >

> > Itd be like if the medics in WW1 that treated dozens of soldiers, and the one who treated Adolf kitten should be blamed for Adolf kitten rising to power. Obviously not, he was just another soldier who was wounded. Balthazar was just another spirit in the mists to Rytlock, its a very very similiar thing.

>

> I think there's a strict difference between disagreeing with reasoning, and thinking it's nonsense. I can feel that saying that Rytlock shouldn't of told us anything is irrational, but still see the mechanics that arrive at that conclusion.

>

> The primary difference between the scenario you gave, and Rytlock is that the medic who treated Adolf kitten was never asked not to treat him because he was going to do X horrible thing in the future. It's an extremely imperfect analogy just because of the actual mechanics of the situation. Rytlock was asked and he refused, he knew we were curious, he knew presumably that a functional squad needs information passed between it to work. He chose not to speak to us immediately, fair enough we had pressing things and was confused.

>

> But months pass, bits of information possibly including that become classified by the Citadel which also would presumably indicate it's important. A god is unveiled and he might be getting an incing, still doesn't tell us or send a letter. PoF happens and he's STILL putting thing s together but despite his suspicions, he's not willing to share. He reveals it only, _only_ when it's confirmed by Balthazar himself and it's too late to do anything with it.

>

> You see where i'm getting at? The situation you presented has no impetus, there's nothing pushing the medic to feel that Adolf is different then anyone else, not much anyway. But for Rytlock there was signposting, there was months of signposting, and either he didn't tell us because of himself or because of the Citadel. To add insult to injury it doesn't really have any consequences for him. Recalling the memory does not bring Rytlock into an emotional breakdown(He seems mildly annoyed if anything, as if inconvenienced by the retelling.) and the Citadel doesn't come after him, though possibly because the Commander doesn't say it to anyone else.

>

> And that's why the 'it's irrelevant' argument doesn't work for me. There's not apparent reason for him to not tell us, he gets several things that point to him maybe telling us and by his own admission he seems to be putting things together, and then he admits only way beyond the point of it's too late. If Balthazar never called him friend, how much longer until he told us? Would he of *ever* told us?

>

> So you see, that reasoning is like pushing a square peg into a round hole, it just doesn't work.

 

Thats another thing entirely. Ive always viewed the charrs(id gladly be proven wrong on this, but i havent seen anything in game that would do so) opinions on things like breakdowns much like how our military(The US's at least) the same. You simply *dont*, you take out your anger, and annoyance on those around you, or you bottle it up entirely and keep it deep down(What Rytlock does). We also tend(in my experience in the military) to *not* do something until its to late and shit hits the fan and someones injured, in trouble or worse, *thats* when things change, if they do.

 

Hell even in the Charr's personal story, he refuses to tell you important information if i remember correctly, so its not new to him doing such things.

 

Maybe thats why it makes sense to me, i already think like that, and i already well, when im at work at least, live that way.

[Randulf.7614]

Would he have ever told us? Prob not, but since it was irrelevant, it doesn't matter if he did or not. It really is that simple. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the fact is, Rytlock has nothing, absolutely not one iota to answer for. He's betrayed no one. He's proved unequivocably reliable and valuable as an ally. There just hasn't been a convincing argument put forward that suggests he might be untrustworthy. As soon as the connection was made, he revealed it. If he kept the information knowing it would cause harm or the deaths of others, then we'd have a discussion or an argument, but that wasn't the case. He kept information, that for all intents and purposes was of no ones business. To suggest the Commander should believe otherwise is to force a perspective of unwarranted arrogance and self importance onto them.

 

Until a convincing argument for Rytlock to be labelled a traitor or untrustworthy is put forward - and so far one has not been - then the discussion will go round and round and round.

 

What this essentially boils down to is that you have a personal moral code which is not really shared by the rest of us. And that is absolutely fine, but you have to realise, the story doesn't share that either so Rytlock in that case has nothing to answer to because it doesn't fit the moral code or logic presented forth by the narrative. Conversely in the situation of Caithe, whilst we overreacted considerably, she at least performed actions that did warrant a logical, lingering lack of trust.

 

tdlr:

"Will Rytlock ever get called out for his actions". Based on all the facts available and the logical morality presented solely by the story itself, he has nothing to answer for

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > > OP you keep skirting around the point and the only people agreeing with you seeming to be radically anti-charr or anti-Rytlock or both is -very- telling. There's also the matter of Glint having a part in this, she could have told Rytlock who the old man was but didn't. If anything it was probably her fault, because Rytlock is a herald explicitly and it can be assumed Glint talks to him. Unless Balthazar already had Lyssa's mirror at this point which would make it so Glint could be fooled too.

> > > >

> > > > I mean what am I skirting around that people are saying? That Rytlock viewed it as irrelevant and therefore he didn't need to tell us? that if he did tell us it wouldn't mattered and so it's okay? I acknowledge these points, I just plain disagree with them and they don't resonate with my morality.

> > > >

> > > > It's kind of funny that you'd mention people being Anti-Charr and Anti-Rytlock agreeing with me, because unless i'm mistaken I don't think _anyone_ has agreed with me. Which I hardly mind, my goal isn't to get the approval of the masses it's to see if anyone can actually fashion together a convincing reason for the sake of discussion that i'd view his actions as okay.

> > >

> > > My issue is: youve dismissed the given reasons that many people find okay and accepting of as totally nonsense.

> > >

> > > Itd be like if the medics in WW1 that treated dozens of soldiers, and the one who treated Adolf kitten should be blamed for Adolf kitten rising to power. Obviously not, he was just another soldier who was wounded. Balthazar was just another spirit in the mists to Rytlock, its a very very similiar thing.

> >

> > I think there's a strict difference between disagreeing with reasoning, and thinking it's nonsense. I can feel that saying that Rytlock shouldn't of told us anything is irrational, but still see the mechanics that arrive at that conclusion.

> >

> > The primary difference between the scenario you gave, and Rytlock is that the medic who treated Adolf kitten was never asked not to treat him because he was going to do X horrible thing in the future. It's an extremely imperfect analogy just because of the actual mechanics of the situation. Rytlock was asked and he refused, he knew we were curious, he knew presumably that a functional squad needs information passed between it to work. He chose not to speak to us immediately, fair enough we had pressing things and was confused.

> >

> > But months pass, bits of information possibly including that become classified by the Citadel which also would presumably indicate it's important. A god is unveiled and he might be getting an incing, still doesn't tell us or send a letter. PoF happens and he's STILL putting thing s together but despite his suspicions, he's not willing to share. He reveals it only, _only_ when it's confirmed by Balthazar himself and it's too late to do anything with it.

> >

> > You see where i'm getting at? The situation you presented has no impetus, there's nothing pushing the medic to feel that Adolf is different then anyone else, not much anyway. But for Rytlock there was signposting, there was months of signposting, and either he didn't tell us because of himself or because of the Citadel. To add insult to injury it doesn't really have any consequences for him. Recalling the memory does not bring Rytlock into an emotional breakdown(He seems mildly annoyed if anything, as if inconvenienced by the retelling.) and the Citadel doesn't come after him, though possibly because the Commander doesn't say it to anyone else.

> >

> > And that's why the 'it's irrelevant' argument doesn't work for me. There's not apparent reason for him to not tell us, he gets several things that point to him maybe telling us and by his own admission he seems to be putting things together, and then he admits only way beyond the point of it's too late. If Balthazar never called him friend, how much longer until he told us? Would he of *ever* told us?

> >

> > So you see, that reasoning is like pushing a square peg into a round hole, it just doesn't work.

>

> Thats another thing entirely. Ive always viewed the charrs(id gladly be proven wrong on this, but i havent seen anything in game that would do so) opinions on things like breakdowns much like how our military(The US's at least) the same. You simply *dont*, you take out your anger, and annoyance on those around you, or you bottle it up entirely and keep it deep down(What Rytlock does). We also tend(in my experience in the military) to *not* do something until its to late and kitten hits the fan and someones injured, in trouble or worse, *thats* when things change, if they do.

>

> Hell even in the Charr's personal story, he refuses to tell you important information if i remember correctly, so its not new to him doing such things.

>

> Maybe thats why it makes sense to me, i already think like that, and i already well, when im at work at least, live that way.

 

Which i'd understand. I only consider it really criminal if he did it on orders of the Citadel, and which point he's putting everyone elses safety after his countries interests, at that point we would need to have a serious talk about him being anywhere near Dragon's Watch because that's a dangerous mentality to have. But if it was something along the llines of, and it would have to be REALLY crippling anxiety to the point he can't really talk normally in general, then sure. That still warrents a callout and an apology however. Because another important aspect of that lifestyle is you need to constantly improve and adjust to your mistakes. If in reality, Rytlock's machoman bullshit is just that, and he's wracked with grief, fair enough.

 

Because on some level I do like Rytlock, even if I view his legion as a bunch of insufferable shortsighted twits. He's capable of understanding subtly as per the Ash Legion storyline, he doesn't let racial hatred get in the way of cooperation, and unlike a lot of Charr he has a down to earth personality and moral code with an inclination towards being real, which is why the lack of information provokes such a strong reaction.

 

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Would he have ever told us? Prob not, but since it was irrelevant, it doesn't matter if he did or not. It really is that simple. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the fact is, Rytlock has nothing, absolutely not one iota to answer for. He's betrayed no one. He's proved unequivocably reliable and valuable as an ally. There just hasn't been a convincing argument put forward that suggests he might be untrustworthy. As soon as the connection was made, he revealed it. If he kept the information knowing it would cause harm or the deaths of others, then we'd have a discussion or an argument, but that wasn't the case. He kept information, that for all intents and purposes was of no ones business. To suggest the Commander should believe otherwise is to force a perspective of unwarranted arrogance and self importance onto them.

>

> Until a convincing argument for Rytlock to be labelled a traitor or untrustworthy is put forward - and so far one has not been - then the discussion will go round and round and round.

>

> What this essentially boils down to is that you have a personal moral code which is not really shared by the rest of us. And that is absolutely fine, but you have to realise, the story doesn't share that either so Rytlock in that case has nothing to answer to because it doesn't fit the moral code or logic presented forth by the narrative. Conversely in the situation of Caithe, whilst we overreacted considerably, she at least performed actions that did warrant a logical, lingering lack of trust.

>

> tdlr:

> "Will Rytlock ever get called out for his actions". Based on all the facts available and the logical morality presented solely by the story itself, he has nothing to answer for

 

I don't know if people simply miss this aspect of my posts, or choose not to address it. But before anyone, Rytlock should of been the first person to put this together. He spent years studying Orrian and Ascalonian history, he might even know it's Balthazars sword though it's unclear if anyone knows that about Sohothan. It is impossible for me to believe, not without assuming Rytlock was a massive idiot, that he would not know. At the very least even if he thought the spirit was like anyone else, he should of put togethers Sohothans reignited flame when Balthazar first appeared. By not sharing it with us, when we were the ones who had the most chance to do something with it he was either directly or indirectly putting people in danger. If he truly thought it didn't matter, he should of started to tell us when he thought it did matter, which by all indications was before we fought Balthazar. Nevermind the morality of breaking out a spirit without knowing why it was locked up, but that's a kettle of fish for another day.

 

It's hard for me to reconcile the above with distrusting Caithe who was, after all, under a lot, perhaps more, mental duress.

[Randulf.7614]

There's was absolutely zero chance of him putting it together earlier. The links were completely tenuous and given the gods were told to us had left, it would be very strange for a ragged old man imprisoned in irons to be thought of as a God. sohotjin being Balthazar sword was new info as well

 

It looks more obvious because it has been explained to us, but for Rytlock to have made any connection prior to when he did would have been totally ridiculous. So, no that isn't an argument to prosecute against Rytlock.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> There's was absolutely zero chance of him putting it together earlier. The links were completely tenuous and given the gods were told to us had left, it would be very strange for a ragged old man imprisoned in irons to be thought of as a God. sohotjin being Balthazar sword was new info as well

>

> It looks more obvious because it has been explained to us, but for Rytlock to have made any connection prior to when he did would have been totally ridiculous. So, no that isn't an argument to prosecute against Rytlock.

 

The thing is, it doesn't even need to be Balthazar. It could be a super empowered god touched being which could still be dangerous, and we know for sure are still totally around. Reigniting the fire of a two of a kid sword with a magic nuke built into it would raise some eyebrows, at least from me. I think it's absolutely absurd for an Orrian/Ascalonian scholar to __not__ realize.

[Pax.3548]

Though Rytlock being shut all the time regarding his time in the mist annoyed me, that his actions ended up causing a series of events that would ended up killing thousands of people and putting a great danger on Tyria because of his rash doings...... the same could be said about the commander's actions, couldn't it? (Joko being the latest example) damn if you do, damn if you don't.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Pax.3548" said:

> Though Rytlock being shut all the time regarding his time in the mist annoyed me, that his actions ended up causing a series of events that would ended up killing thousands of people and putting a great danger on Tyria because of his rash doings...... the same could be said about the commander's actions, couldn't it? (Joko being the latest example) kitten if you do, kitten if you don't.

 

I mean I don't disagree with that in the slightest, it's just the cognitive dissonance kicks in when he doesn't seem to tell us for little reason. Or at least, reasons that are poorly explained at best and don't hold an ounce of water at worst. Sure hindsight plays some factor into it, but the sheer importance of Sohothan as an object should of at least made hims start to question how something could reignite it once he was out of the mists, and why exactly it's only payment would be letting the spirit go.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > There's was absolutely zero chance of him putting it together earlier. The links were completely tenuous and given the gods were told to us had left, it would be very strange for a ragged old man imprisoned in irons to be thought of as a God. sohotjin being Balthazar sword was new info as well

> >

> > It looks more obvious because it has been explained to us, but for Rytlock to have made any connection prior to when he did would have been totally ridiculous. So, no that isn't an argument to prosecute against Rytlock.

>

> The thing is, it doesn't even need to be Balthazar. It could be a super empowered god touched being which could still be dangerous, and we know for sure are still totally around. Reigniting the fire of a two of a kid sword with a magic nuke built into it would raise some eyebrows, at least from me. I think it's absolutely absurd for an Orrian/Ascalonian scholar to __not__ realize.

 

Whos to say some other being in the mists couldnt have done the same thing? We simply *dont* know if anything else there could have, so we cant exactly take this one instance as an oddity. We know all sorts of beings end up there, and some of them are insanely powerful, so why it would be that odd given that he met Glint?

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > There's was absolutely zero chance of him putting it together earlier. The links were completely tenuous and given the gods were told to us had left, it would be very strange for a ragged old man imprisoned in irons to be thought of as a God. sohotjin being Balthazar sword was new info as well

> > >

> > > It looks more obvious because it has been explained to us, but for Rytlock to have made any connection prior to when he did would have been totally ridiculous. So, no that isn't an argument to prosecute against Rytlock.

> >

> > The thing is, it doesn't even need to be Balthazar. It could be a super empowered god touched being which could still be dangerous, and we know for sure are still totally around. Reigniting the fire of a two of a kid sword with a magic nuke built into it would raise some eyebrows, at least from me. I think it's absolutely absurd for an Orrian/Ascalonian scholar to __not__ realize.

>

> Whos to say some other being in the mists couldnt have done the same thing? We simply *dont* know if anything else there could have, so we cant exactly take this one instance as an oddity. We know all sorts of beings end up there, and some of them are insanely powerful, so why it would be that odd given that he met Glint?

 

I mean that's the thing, releasing a super powerful being into the Mists is something we should know about. People say that the Mists don't effect reality, but every great cataclysm to befall Tyria without the Dragons has roots back to the Mists, spirits can destroy entire countries by brushing up against people.

 

Sohothan is also a singularly unique artifact. It's explicitly from the gods, part of a single pair, and comes packaged in with a magical nuke. It is unlikely for me that any ordinary spirit could reignite it to say the least, if it could Rytlock would of probably gone somewhere where he actually knew who or what was rendering the service to him. Like a lot of these arguments _hinge_ on the idea the Mists are irrelevant to function or they just collapse, but the Mists even in a post-god world have absolutely absurd effects on our world.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > There's was absolutely zero chance of him putting it together earlier. The links were completely tenuous and given the gods were told to us had left, it would be very strange for a ragged old man imprisoned in irons to be thought of as a God. sohotjin being Balthazar sword was new info as well

> >

> > It looks more obvious because it has been explained to us, but for Rytlock to have made any connection prior to when he did would have been totally ridiculous. So, no that isn't an argument to prosecute against Rytlock.

>

> The thing is, it doesn't even need to be Balthazar. It could be a super empowered god touched being which could still be dangerous, and we know for sure are still totally around. Reigniting the fire of a two of a kid sword with a magic nuke built into it would raise some eyebrows, at least from me. I think it's absolutely absurd for an Orrian/Ascalonian scholar to __not__ realize.

 

Since when was Rytlock a scholar? He's a Tribune of the least scholarly of the legions.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > There's was absolutely zero chance of him putting it together earlier. The links were completely tenuous and given the gods were told to us had left, it would be very strange for a ragged old man imprisoned in irons to be thought of as a God. sohotjin being Balthazar sword was new info as well

> > >

> > > It looks more obvious because it has been explained to us, but for Rytlock to have made any connection prior to when he did would have been totally ridiculous. So, no that isn't an argument to prosecute against Rytlock.

> >

> > The thing is, it doesn't even need to be Balthazar. It could be a super empowered god touched being which could still be dangerous, and we know for sure are still totally around. Reigniting the fire of a two of a kid sword with a magic nuke built into it would raise some eyebrows, at least from me. I think it's absolutely absurd for an Orrian/Ascalonian scholar to __not__ realize.

>

> Since when was Rytlock a scholar? He's a Tribune of the least scholarly of the legions.

 

 

Remember that Sohothans Rytlocks baby, he needed to study that sword for a really long time in order to unlock the rituals for that thing. He has, at the very least, seen an Orrian stamp enough times to know when a paper is legitimate or not, he spent _years_ of research on this project with the Durmond Priory.

[Cristalyan.5728]

I don't think Rytlock made any mistake in the way he acted. Not informing the others about the details of his trip in the Mist is very well suited with his character. We know that he jumped into the Mist to find his sword. We know he returned. In Rytlocks opinion this is all we need to know - and this fits very well with what we know about it.

 

He did not share other data because the Citadel asked? Is this a real fault? We, as Commander, are tied by an oath to the Shining Blade to keep secret any aspect related with this organization. Even if we will find that the Shining Blade planned to eliminate our own guild we cannot say a word. Why is Rytlock guilty and the commander is not?

 

Caithe acted as she acted because Mordremoth tried again and again to break hers will and to make her one of his underlings. Taking this into consideration she resisted admirably - the only wrong thing she done was stealing the egg. But she did not any harm to it. And in the end Mordremoth was not able to capture the egg - this was our goal also - first to protect the egg from Mordremoth and then to plan our future action based on what the egg will become.

 

As for the Logan's "betrayal" - he did not betrayed. He told his mates what he want to do and why. The guild has the chance to postpone the attack. But they attacked - I think this is a kind of betrayal - Glint told them that they can win only fighting all of them. And they thought they can win. That means that even without Logan they thought they are **all**, reducing Logan's value to **zero** - as per the Destiny Edge assessment.

 

Each of the members of the Commander guild - including the Commander - has weaknesses and each of them are far from being perfect.

The only situation we can blame Rytlock is if he really knew who the stranger was, what plans the stranger had, and even so, without knowing what results the plans may have on Tyria he still cannot be blamed. And we know that the "revelation" of how bad killing the dragons is came from Taimi, after more than 10 minutes of intense thinking, putting at shame 5 ancient races and all the knowledge coming from over 10 000 years of history. The true was so easy to find that I even started to question if the 5 ancient races were intelligent beings or not. PFF!! even a large group of skritts can find the true very fast - it is so bright and shiny!

 

As a conclusion: Rytlock acted normally - a very rytlockish behavior - but the situation he was involved is something not normal. It was a forced plot twist and the questions we debate here are a sign that the characters in GW were correctly "crafted". I think theirs action will raise again questions if the lore team will put them again in forced and unrealistic situations.

[norbes.3620]

I can agree with some of ur Points and some of ur "morale code" but the Details vary from ur opinion

 

first: will he ever be punished? in some Kind? hopefully

but like i said i dont think that releasing some Spirit wich turned out to be a god wich no one knew was enchained cuz 250 years there was no contact to those entitys and it was doubted that those gods really did exist.. like it always is with Religion / if u cant get in touch with the god u cant be sure that he exist /ever existed

 

not talking about ANYTHING that happened during his mist vacation on the other Hand is a different case. but if i remember correctly rytlock only stalled his answers cuz he was not ready to talk about it wich can be understood under the circumstances still i would like him talking a bit bout that

 

next Thing is that ur saying u want him to apologize and everything would be fine..

but he did.

maybe he did not go down on his knees and begged for forgiveness but he made clear that he regretted his Actions and to wich results those lead(whats more than some "sorry bro, netflix session tomorrow?"). not only that but he did infact a LOT to make things up to the mistakes he did in the past intentionally or not

and this is some heavy Point in his regards cuz thats something that most People would not do

sure Thing it would be awesome if everyone lived that way world would be a better place for sure (real world and virtual world alike) but only cuz thats something u wish for everyone should act like does not mea that People actually do

 

 

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> I don't think Rytlock made any mistake in the way he acted. Not informing the others about the details of his trip in the Mist is very well suited with his character. We know that he jumped into the Mist to find his sword. We know he returned. In Rytlocks opinion this is all we need to know - and this fits very well with what we know about it.

>

> He did not share other data because the Citadel asked? Is this a real fault? We, as Commander, are tied by an oath to the Shining Blade to keep secret any aspect related with this organization. Even if we will find that the Shining Blade planned to eliminate our own guild we cannot say a word. Why is Rytlock guilty and the commander is not?

>

> Caithe acted as she acted because Mordremoth tried again and again to break hers will and to make her one of his underlings. Taking this into consideration she resisted admirably - the only wrong thing she done was stealing the egg. But she did not any harm to it. And in the end Mordremoth was not able to capture the egg - this was our goal also - first to protect the egg from Mordremoth and then to plan our future action based on what the egg will become.

>

> As for the Logan's "betrayal" - he did not betrayed. He told his mates what he want to do and why. The guild has the chance to postpone the attack. But they attacked - I think this is a kind of betrayal - Glint told them that they can win only fighting all of them. And they thought they can win. That means that even without Logan they thought they are **all**, reducing Logan's value to **zero** - as per the Destiny Edge assessment.

>

> Each of the members of the Commander guild - including the Commander - has weaknesses and each of them are far from being perfect.

> The only situation we can blame Rytlock is if he really knew who the stranger was, what plans the stranger had, and even so, without knowing what results the plans may have on Tyria he still cannot be blamed. And we know that the "revelation" of how bad killing the dragons is came from Taimi, after more than 10 minutes of intense thinking, putting at shame 5 ancient races and all the knowledge coming from over 10 000 years of history. The true was so easy to find that I even started to question if the 5 ancient races were intelligent beings or not. PFF!! even a large group of skritts can find the true very fast - it is so bright and shiny!

>

> As a conclusion: Rytlock acted normally - a very rytlockish behavior - but the situation he was involved is something not normal. It was a forced plot twist and the questions we debate here are a sign that the characters in GW were correctly "crafted". I think theirs action will raise again questions if the lore team will put them again in forced and unrealistic situations.

 

I mean my answer to that, particularly in the case of the Order of Whispers is the Commander is *not* guiltless and I felt this episode in particular did a pretty good job demonstrating that. Though to be fair when it comes to the Shining Blade, you're bound by a magical oath and if you break it you just fall over dead, you probably don't even get what you want to say out before you bite it.

 

And I think really the reason i'm so harsh on Rytlock is the reasons you mention with Logan. Humans are, inherently, more negative towards hypocrisy. Logan might still feel he made the right choice but at least he feels somewhat bad about it, and Rytlock still berates him for that choice. In many ways Rytlock did the same thing: He put the Citadel before anything, before any other nation or people in order to keep secrets from s, and this time a lot more people then Snaff may of died as a result. His inability to look inward leaves us the situation of...well this thread. All we have for counter arguments are implications, he might be feeling terrible but we don't know, he never explicitly admits any kind of guilt and at times he even comes off as the same cocky asshole he always was.

 

That kind of feeling isn't just reprehensible, it's a liability.

[Castigator.3470]

Of all our fellows, Rytlock admitted his mistake, gave us his sword to end Balthazar and did everything in his power to fix his mistake.

If anything he's competition for Taimi's spot as MVP of Dragon's Watch.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

This whole thread should be the next chapter achievement. "Defend Rytlock at the Citadel jury."

At least 3 or whatever objectives of evidence or argument to prevent imprisonment. The achievement makes it a critical success (fully trustworthy decision) as opposed to an ordinary "pardon" success (leadership questioned) kinda like with what happened with the Asura-pestilence situation.

 

Or you could be a total d**k and instantly condemn a DW member out like you're voting someone off the island.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Castigator.3470" said:> Of all our fellows, Rytlock admitted his mistake, gave us his sword to end Balthazar and did everything in his power to fix his mistake.

If anything he's competition for Taimi's spot as MVP of Dragon's Watch.Pretty much all our companions admitted guilt for what they have done, and all of them have at some point lent their arm to our cause. Just because Kormir happened to point out his sword would be the best tool for slaying Balthazar doesn't mean i'll give him some special treatment.

[Castigator.3470]

Look, we all know Rytlock isn't perfect. I guess he himself knows that better than anyone else. If you don't like him, that's perfectly fine, but you're calling for some nebulous punishment, because he didn't behave like you wanted him to behave, essentially scapegoating him for everything that happened.One of the accusations is this one:> [...] Rytlock had essentially done is what he had always critiqued Logan for: Putting his country before literally everyone and everybody else.This is demonstrably false, he ignored several summons by the Black Citadel to stay with us and help us in the Caudecus/White Mantle situation. Rytlock stayed with us until the Imperators lost their patience and signalized they were serious about this. He was stripped of his rank and the Adamant Guard was dispatched to fetch him. @"castlemanic.3198" made a very good breakdown of that in this post.

We didn't canonically visit the Black Citadel in that time, but we can be certain he was tried for dereliction of duty. He returned to us as soon as he was allowed to, which was in Amnoon at the beginning of Path of Fire.So Rytlock got court-martialed for preferring to stay with us, and you claim he put his race before everything else? The other accusation was, that him not telling us in depth about his mist adventures somehow constitutes treason.> [...] and he did this either out of selfishness or orders from someone else. To me, that reeks of treachery, there's few other ways to describe it.To be quite honest, I'm curious of what happened to Rytlock during his time in the Mists. But that is a long story and I'm not particularly mad at him if he doesn't tell us during a mission. In fact, he did open up to us during Eir's Funeral. This leads to the following conclusion. If you want Rytlock to tell you a story, move his tail to a tavern, where you can sit down and have a talk. Not during a mission, where time is of the essence.Also, you can't just go around and accuse someone of treason for not telling you about all the homeless ghosts he met in the Mists. Rytlock likely met a ton of ghosts. Maybe he even met Scorch Emberspire, or any number of notable historical figures.Still the complete story could take several hours to tell so asking him during missions will only give you evasive answers.But maybe I am looking at this the wrong way. Maybe this is not so much a rational condemnation of Rytlock's actions and more subjective misgivings with his past behaviour?> And I think really the reason i'm so harsh on Rytlock is the reasons you mention with Logan. Humans are, inherently, more negative towards hypocrisy. Logan might still feel he made the right choice but at least he feels somewhat bad about it, and Rytlock still berates him for that choice.Did you play Citadel of Flame story mode? And did you play Crucible of Eternity story mode after that? Rytlock and Logan are good. After Gaheron's death, they had some drinks and ended their quarrel.In Arah story mode they have another reunion. I really hope you noticed, that I've linked the relevant Wiki pages, check out the dialogue to see what Rytlock actually thinks of Logan.If you want to argue that Rytlock acted irrationally by lashing out at Logan, the yes, I agree! That's the point. People do not behave rationally 100% of the time and If you demand they do, you will find infinite disappointment.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Castigator.3470" said:> Look, we all know Rytlock isn't perfect. I guess he himself knows that better than anyone else. If you don't like him, that's perfectly fine, but you're calling for some nebulous punishment, because he didn't behave like you wanted him to behave, essentially scapegoating him for everything that happened.> Allow me to be specific then. At the very least, at the VERY LEAST, Rytlock should be in the same doghouse Caith is in at this point. A lot of damage was inadvertently caused by his actions for reasons he couldn't completely control, but that he still had _some_ agency over.> One of the accusations is this one:> > [...] Rytlock had essentially done is what he had always critiqued Logan for: Putting his country before literally everyone and everybody else.> This is demonstrably false, he ignored several summons by the Black Citadel to stay with us and help us in the Caudecus/White Mantle situation. Rytlock stayed with us until the Imperators lost their patience and signalized they were serious about this. He was stripped of his rank and the Adamant Guard was dispatched to fetch him. > @"castlemanic.3198" made a very good breakdown of that in this post.

We didn't canonically visit the Black Citadel in that time, but we can be certain he was tried for dereliction of duty. He returned to us as soon as he was allowed to, which was in Amnoon at the beginning of Path of Fire.> So Rytlock got court-martialed for preferring to stay with us, and you claim he put his race before everything else? I'd point out what pretty much everyone else did after the conclusion of the Citadel storyline: Rytlock was not stripped of rank, he was pulled aside for a time to tell his superiors what happened, once he spilled his guts he suffered no consequences. Again assuming he'd want to tell us what would happen(Which he didn't, because we ask him as soon as we see him in Amnoon and are promptly denied.) all he'd have to do is send us a letter, that's it. Staying behind was a nice gesture, but it was clear he was never in danger of actual serious consequences. > > The other accusation was, that him not telling us in depth about his mist adventures somehow constitutes treason.> > [...] and he did this either out of selfishness or orders from someone else. To me, that reeks of treachery, there's few other ways to describe it.> To be quite honest, I'm curious of what happened to Rytlock during his time in the Mists. But that is a long story and I'm not particularly mad at him if he doesn't tell us during a mission. In fact, he did open up to us during Eir's Funeral. This leads to the following conclusion. If you want Rytlock to tell you a story, move his tail to a tavern, where you can sit down and have a talk. Not during a mission, where time is of the essence.> Also, you can't just go around and accuse someone of treason for not telling you about all the homeless ghosts he met in the Mists. Rytlock likely met a ton of ghosts. Maybe he even met Scorch Emberspire, or any number of notable historical figures.> Still the complete story could take several hours to tell so asking him during missions will only give you evasive answers.This is the one which confuses me the most, the Living World stories don't happen one after another rapid fire, by the time PoF starts it's a different year. He had a *long* time to tell us something, anything, and he chose not to. I'v also already explained why Rytlock believing that ghost was irrelevant, ESPECIALLY due to his time studying in the Priory, is complete nonsense and why not telling someone something because you don't think it's worth their time when they have asked repeatedly makes no sense. Especially in a situation like the one we're in now when every bit of information counts. These arguments fall apart for me because the basis of them really doesn't hold water, the information is simultaneously important enough to hold on to but irrelevant enough not to matter if you don't tell someone it.> > But maybe I am looking at this the wrong way. Maybe this is not so much a rational condemnation of Rytlock's actions and more subjective misgivings with his past behaviour?> > And I think really the reason i'm so harsh on Rytlock is the reasons you mention with Logan. Humans are, inherently, more negative towards hypocrisy. Logan might still feel he made the right choice but at least he feels somewhat bad about it, and Rytlock still berates him for that choice.> Did you play Citadel of Flame story mode? And did you play Crucible of Eternity story mode after that? > Rytlock and Logan are good. After Gaheron's death, they had some drinks and ended their quarrel.> In Arah story mode they have another reunion. I really hope you noticed, that I've linked the relevant Wiki pages, check out the dialogue to see what Rytlock actually thinks of Logan.> If you want to argue that Rytlock acted irrationally by lashing out at Logan, the yes, I agree! That's the point. People do not behave rationally 100% of the time and If you demand they do, you will find infinite disappointment.I was pretty exact in my wording, I didn't say his *current* condemnation of Logan, just his condemnation of Logan. You'd figure if he realized he may of let everyone down in the same way he might feel pretty bad about it, right? But we only really have implied guilt, if even implied, and it doesn't have any lasting impact on the story. Rytlock goes "oh I fucked up!" early on, doesn't mention it again aside from Kormir poking at him about it, and none of the characters comment on it ever again despite it being such a major plotpoint that it warrented it's own cinematic and has been held in two expansions now.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Castigator.3470" said:

> > Look, we all know Rytlock isn't perfect. I guess he himself knows that better than anyone else. If you don't like him, that's perfectly fine, but you're calling for some nebulous punishment, because he didn't behave like you wanted him to behave, essentially scapegoating him for everything that happened.

> >

>

> Allow me to be specific then. At the very least, at the VERY LEAST, Rytlock should be in the same doghouse Caith is in at this point. A lot of damage was inadvertently caused by his actions for reasons he couldn't completely control, but that he still had _some_ agency over.

>

>

 

I highly disagree here.

 

The reason i distrust Caithe *still*, was she literally stole from the player character, without any reason, i have a unhealthy loathing of thieves both IRL and in games, she continued to put the player character and the rest of the NPCs in danger the entire time she had the egg because we where required to obtain the egg and make sure it was safe, so we chased her until we obtained it. The entire first arc of HoT including some of the deaths and injuries of main characters where in part caused by Caithe, who could have used her masterful use of stealth skills to rescue those people, had she had just given use the egg in the first place instead of taking it for herself. Caithe doesnt even really apologize to the player before she vanishes again..

 

Rytlock did what? not tell us he encountered a spirit(one of many he more than likely encountered), what would it have changed? We would have continued to go after Balthazar with or without knowing the information he had, the PC *still* would have "died" to him in that encounter we had with him the first time, so what would be different?

 

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > @"Castigator.3470" said:

> > > Look, we all know Rytlock isn't perfect. I guess he himself knows that better than anyone else. If you don't like him, that's perfectly fine, but you're calling for some nebulous punishment, because he didn't behave like you wanted him to behave, essentially scapegoating him for everything that happened.

> > >

> >

> > Allow me to be specific then. At the very least, at the VERY LEAST, Rytlock should be in the same doghouse Caith is in at this point. A lot of damage was inadvertently caused by his actions for reasons he couldn't completely control, but that he still had _some_ agency over.

> >

> >

>

> I highly disagree here.

>

> The reason i distrust Caithe *still*, was she literally stole from the player character, without any reason, i have a unhealthy loathing of thieves both IRL and in games, she continued to put the player character and the rest of the NPCs in danger the entire time she had the egg because we where required to obtain the egg and make sure it was safe, so we chased her until we obtained it. The entire first arc of HoT including some of the deaths and injuries of main characters where in part caused by Caithe, who could have used her masterful use of stealth skills to rescue those people, had she had just given use the egg in the first place instead of taking it for herself. Caithe doesnt even really apologize to the player before she vanishes again..

>

> Rytlock did what? not tell us he encountered a spirit(one of many he more than likely encountered), what would it have changed? We would have continued to go after Balthazar with or without knowing the information he had, the PC *still* would have "died" to him in that encounter we had with him the first time, so what would be different?

>

>

 

Don't forget Caithe murdered all those peaceful centaurs and *still* seems willing to go along with Faolain despite how obviously evil she is.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > @"Castigator.3470" said:

> > > Look, we all know Rytlock isn't perfect. I guess he himself knows that better than anyone else. If you don't like him, that's perfectly fine, but you're calling for some nebulous punishment, because he didn't behave like you wanted him to behave, essentially scapegoating him for everything that happened.

> > >

> >

> > Allow me to be specific then. At the very least, at the VERY LEAST, Rytlock should be in the same doghouse Caith is in at this point. A lot of damage was inadvertently caused by his actions for reasons he couldn't completely control, but that he still had _some_ agency over.

> >

> >

>

> I highly disagree here.

>

> The reason i distrust Caithe *still*, was she literally stole from the player character, without any reason, i have a unhealthy loathing of thieves both IRL and in games, she continued to put the player character and the rest of the NPCs in danger the entire time she had the egg because we where required to obtain the egg and make sure it was safe, so we chased her until we obtained it. The entire first arc of HoT including some of the deaths and injuries of main characters where in part caused by Caithe, who could have used her masterful use of stealth skills to rescue those people, had she had just given use the egg in the first place instead of taking it for herself. Caithe doesnt even really apologize to the player before she vanishes again..

>

> Rytlock did what? not tell us he encountered a spirit(one of many he more than likely encountered), what would it have changed? We would have continued to go after Balthazar with or without knowing the information he had, the PC *still* would have "died" to him in that encounter we had with him the first time, so what would be different?

>

>

 

Contrast with me, I have an intense hatred of people with bystander syndrome or who tell lies of omission. Countless wars and murders across history could of been avoided if people simply told someone else a seemingly irrelevant piece of information they had asked for, or hadn't decided there just wasn't anything they could do about it and moved on with their lives. People above all should communicate and be honest with another, *communication* more then anything else leads to death and destruction. Collaborators and bystanders are my 'evil person' of choice because of their inability to do something even though they have all the power in their hands. To Caithe I distrust her for much the same reasons, she could of told us what was going on but did not. However, she also had the crushing will of a Wyld Hunt clouding her thoughts and visions of what to do. On a whole i'm more sympathetic to people who have mental damage to one degree or another, and Caithe was clearly suffering under the Dream.

 

Rytlock on the other is, if we believe what people have said thusfar in the thread, suffering intense guilt certainly. But he's had an extended time period to work through his feelings and ultimately despite having several months to organize his thoughts he tells us nothing about what happened despite we are the single most important person to give information like this to. I keep coming back to this, but Rytlock dismissing the spirit as non-important is absurd. Nevermind it's not his call to say what we do or do not need to know at this juncture, but the fact the spirit had as I have mentioned many times reignited a godsword is telling. That in itself is a massive clue and Rytlock more then anyone else should know this because he spent years researching Orrian and Ascalonian texts for the Priory precisely so he could utilize Sohothans divine nature and unmake the Foefire. The best you could argue with me on this point is Anet simply didn't realize how stupid it sounds for Rytlock to discard such a pivotal point in his msit adventure as meaningless,.

 

We could of divined that it was an extremely powerful Balthazar entity, and one that could upset the balance of the Mists. If we were particularly lucky we might even piece together that since Lazerous might not be who we thought, it might be related in some way, shape or form. It's discarded fairly early on in the story but it's worth noting that Balthazar is hiring mercenaries for his cause, at some point someone somewhere has to know something. We have so many tools at our disposal, not the least of which is the Order of Whispers to find a lead.

 

So yes, is it possible that it would of solved nothing. But if there is even a 0.00003% chance you could save a thousand lives, or even *a life* by doing something as simple as telling them a bit of information you deem as meaningless anyway? *You should do it.*

[Dante.1763]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > > @"Castigator.3470" said:

> > > > Look, we all know Rytlock isn't perfect. I guess he himself knows that better than anyone else. If you don't like him, that's perfectly fine, but you're calling for some nebulous punishment, because he didn't behave like you wanted him to behave, essentially scapegoating him for everything that happened.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Allow me to be specific then. At the very least, at the VERY LEAST, Rytlock should be in the same doghouse Caith is in at this point. A lot of damage was inadvertently caused by his actions for reasons he couldn't completely control, but that he still had _some_ agency over.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I highly disagree here.

> >

> > The reason i distrust Caithe *still*, was she literally stole from the player character, without any reason, i have a unhealthy loathing of thieves both IRL and in games, she continued to put the player character and the rest of the NPCs in danger the entire time she had the egg because we where required to obtain the egg and make sure it was safe, so we chased her until we obtained it. The entire first arc of HoT including some of the deaths and injuries of main characters where in part caused by Caithe, who could have used her masterful use of stealth skills to rescue those people, had she had just given use the egg in the first place instead of taking it for herself. Caithe doesnt even really apologize to the player before she vanishes again..

> >

> > Rytlock did what? not tell us he encountered a spirit(one of many he more than likely encountered), what would it have changed? We would have continued to go after Balthazar with or without knowing the information he had, the PC *still* would have "died" to him in that encounter we had with him the first time, so what would be different?

> >

> >

>

> Contrast with me, I have an intense hatred of people with bystander syndrome or who tell lies of omission. Countless wars and murders across history could of been avoided if people simply told someone else a seemingly irrelevant piece of information they had asked for, or hadn't decided there just wasn't anything they could do about it and moved on with their lives. People above all should communicate and be honest with another, *communication* more then anything else leads to death and destruction. Collaborators and bystanders are my 'evil person' of choice because of their inability to do something even though they have all the power in their hands. To Caithe I distrust her for much the same reasons, she could of told us what was going on but did not. However, she also had the crushing will of a Wyld Hunt clouding her thoughts and visions of what to do. On a whole i'm more sympathetic to people who have mental damage to one degree or another, and Caithe was clearly suffering under the Dream.

>

> Rytlock on the other is, if we believe what people have said thusfar in the thread, suffering intense guilt certainly. But he's had an extended time period to work through his feelings and ultimately despite having several months to organize his thoughts he tells us nothing about what happened despite we are the single most important person to give information like this to. I keep coming back to this, but Rytlock dismissing the spirit as non-important is absurd. Nevermind it's not his call to say what we do or do not need to know at this juncture, but the fact the spirit had as I have mentioned many times reignited a godsword is telling. That in itself is a massive clue and Rytlock more then anyone else should know this because he spent years researching Orrian and Ascalonian texts for the Priory precisely so he could utilize Sohothans divine nature and unmake the Foefire. The best you could argue with me on this point is Anet simply didn't realize how stupid it sounds for Rytlock to discard such a pivotal point in his msit adventure as meaningless,.

>

> We could of divined that it was an extremely powerful Balthazar entity, and one that could upset the balance of the Mists. If we were particularly lucky we might even piece together that since Lazerous might not be who we thought, it might be related in some way, shape or form. It's discarded fairly early on in the story but it's worth noting that Balthazar is hiring mercenaries for his cause, at some point someone somewhere has to know something. We have so many tools at our disposal, not the least of which is the Order of Whispers to find a lead.

>

> So yes, is it possible that it would of solved nothing. But if there is even a 0.00003% chance you could save a thousand lives, or even *a life* by doing something as simple as telling them a bit of information you deem as meaningless anyway? *You should do it.*

 

And heres the dilemma for rytlock, regardless of the actions that followed:

 

If he hadnt have had balthazar reignite the sword, who would have, i doubt it would take anything less than a demigod that was able to use fire to do so? as *THE* Leading expert in dealing with the ghosts of ascalon the sword is the only hope to actually end the curse put on the region, he put his people first in the hopes of saving their lives in the long run, he did exactly what you said he shouldve done. That sword could save hundreds if not thousands of charr if they can complete the ritual and that is what is most important to both him and the citadel and more than likely the real reason he got called back. Without the sword they have nothing, with the sword they have hope to end a terrible curse that is constantly killing people.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > > > @"Castigator.3470" said:

> > > > > Look, we all know Rytlock isn't perfect. I guess he himself knows that better than anyone else. If you don't like him, that's perfectly fine, but you're calling for some nebulous punishment, because he didn't behave like you wanted him to behave, essentially scapegoating him for everything that happened.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Allow me to be specific then. At the very least, at the VERY LEAST, Rytlock should be in the same doghouse Caith is in at this point. A lot of damage was inadvertently caused by his actions for reasons he couldn't completely control, but that he still had _some_ agency over.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I highly disagree here.

> > >

> > > The reason i distrust Caithe *still*, was she literally stole from the player character, without any reason, i have a unhealthy loathing of thieves both IRL and in games, she continued to put the player character and the rest of the NPCs in danger the entire time she had the egg because we where required to obtain the egg and make sure it was safe, so we chased her until we obtained it. The entire first arc of HoT including some of the deaths and injuries of main characters where in part caused by Caithe, who could have used her masterful use of stealth skills to rescue those people, had she had just given use the egg in the first place instead of taking it for herself. Caithe doesnt even really apologize to the player before she vanishes again..

> > >

> > > Rytlock did what? not tell us he encountered a spirit(one of many he more than likely encountered), what would it have changed? We would have continued to go after Balthazar with or without knowing the information he had, the PC *still* would have "died" to him in that encounter we had with him the first time, so what would be different?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Contrast with me, I have an intense hatred of people with bystander syndrome or who tell lies of omission. Countless wars and murders across history could of been avoided if people simply told someone else a seemingly irrelevant piece of information they had asked for, or hadn't decided there just wasn't anything they could do about it and moved on with their lives. People above all should communicate and be honest with another, *communication* more then anything else leads to death and destruction. Collaborators and bystanders are my 'evil person' of choice because of their inability to do something even though they have all the power in their hands. To Caithe I distrust her for much the same reasons, she could of told us what was going on but did not. However, she also had the crushing will of a Wyld Hunt clouding her thoughts and visions of what to do. On a whole i'm more sympathetic to people who have mental damage to one degree or another, and Caithe was clearly suffering under the Dream.

> >

> > Rytlock on the other is, if we believe what people have said thusfar in the thread, suffering intense guilt certainly. But he's had an extended time period to work through his feelings and ultimately despite having several months to organize his thoughts he tells us nothing about what happened despite we are the single most important person to give information like this to. I keep coming back to this, but Rytlock dismissing the spirit as non-important is absurd. Nevermind it's not his call to say what we do or do not need to know at this juncture, but the fact the spirit had as I have mentioned many times reignited a godsword is telling. That in itself is a massive clue and Rytlock more then anyone else should know this because he spent years researching Orrian and Ascalonian texts for the Priory precisely so he could utilize Sohothans divine nature and unmake the Foefire. The best you could argue with me on this point is Anet simply didn't realize how stupid it sounds for Rytlock to discard such a pivotal point in his msit adventure as meaningless,.

> >

> > We could of divined that it was an extremely powerful Balthazar entity, and one that could upset the balance of the Mists. If we were particularly lucky we might even piece together that since Lazerous might not be who we thought, it might be related in some way, shape or form. It's discarded fairly early on in the story but it's worth noting that Balthazar is hiring mercenaries for his cause, at some point someone somewhere has to know something. We have so many tools at our disposal, not the least of which is the Order of Whispers to find a lead.

> >

> > So yes, is it possible that it would of solved nothing. But if there is even a 0.00003% chance you could save a thousand lives, or even *a life* by doing something as simple as telling them a bit of information you deem as meaningless anyway? *You should do it.*

>

> And heres the dilemma for rytlock, regardless of the actions that followed:

>

> If he hadnt have had balthazar reignite the sword, who would have, i doubt it would take anything less than a demigod that was able to use fire to do so? as *THE* Leading expert in dealing with the ghosts of ascalon the sword is the only hope to actually end the curse put on the region, he put his people first in the hopes of saving their lives in the long run, he did exactly what you said he shouldve done. That sword could save hundreds if not thousands of charr if they can complete the ritual and that is what is most important to both him and the citadel and more than likely the real reason he got called back. Without the sword they have nothing, with the sword they have hope to end a terrible curse that is constantly killing people.

 

But you see, that's the *exact* point i'm getting at. If it was some irrelevant spirit, how did it do that? My problem has never been that he ignited the sword, it's that he didn't *tell* anyone about it even though he should know better, and he did that for no reason. Why? is it because human lives just don't matter to him as much? or is he just a self centered prick?

 

And this cognitive dissonance is what baffles me so much about the defenses presented. By admission the sword is important, but the spirit is not even though he reignited the sword? It could be any number of things even though that was a important moment? Or people somehow construe it as me arguing he should of never ignited the sword even though what i'm arguing is he should of taken five seconds to tell someone? It's either irrelevant, a result of my bias, important but not important enough to tell us, a result of fear to the Citadel even though others or even the same person will say he's loyal to us for not answering the Citadels summons despite facing no consequences, or implied guilt that is never elaborated on throughout the entire expansion. I'd say pick one, but these are poor arguments even individually, the most convincing thing i'v heard so far is something in the Mist might be binding his tongue that we don't know about or *Anet simply dropped the ball.*

 

None of these arguments are congruent within themselves, *much less one another.*