Will Rytlock ever get called out for his actions?

[castlemanic.3198]

I think you're making a huge mistake in determining what is or is not critical information.

 

1. Rytlock didn't know it was Balthazar. If Rytlock had known it was Balthazar, he would have told the commander. The critical information is that it was Balthazar. THAT is the critical information. The Balthazar part. Which Rytlock didn't know. So Rytlock didn't hold back critical information, because it could have been literally anyone, and literally anyone else wouldn't have mattered.

2. Rytlock had no possible way to know that Balthazar left the mists. Rytlock left first. He didn't wait for this other random dude to walk through the portal, Rytlock just went through the portal. For all Rytlock knew, this human like being could have just stayed back in the mists. He had absolutely no reason and no way of knowing that this being would have crossed back into tyria. So why is it important for Rytlock to tell the commander that he met a random dude in the mists who opened a portal if Rytlock had no idea the figure would follow him through it?

3. What Caithe and Logan did is so fundamentally different than what Rytlock did, it's honestly comparing mountain ranges to a mosquito bite. Caithe and Logan took DIRECT decisions to betray their allies. Caithe stole the egg from the commander, who she knew was a good person and who would protect the egg at all costs. Logan abandoned Destiny's Edge, knowing they were about to fight an elder dragon. Rytlock knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the being he freed in the mists. Rytlock didn't betray anyone. Rytlock was duped. Logan and Caithe knew EXACTLY what they were doing, Rytlock only wanted his sword back and saved a dude who was chained in return.

4. Rytlock left the mists through the portal directly into the battle with the Mordrem. Remember, that was Rytlock's first moment back from the mists. His priority was ultimately killing Mordremoth.

5. Rytlock met Glint in the mists and learned revenant magic from her. The amount of emotional turmoil from meeting a literal ghost from the past outweighs any of his other experiences in the mists. That's a ton of baggage to carry when you're directly faced with a ghost who reminds you of the fact that you failed to protect them. Rytlock has the baggage of both Snaff and Glint on his shoulders. And now, Rytlock essentially carries Glint with him everywhere he goes.

6. Eir died in the Maguuma Jungle, and Rytlock failed to save her too. That's a third death of someone who was so close to him and so important. Also in the Maguuma Jungle was Glint's egg, that had to also be another priority for Rytlock, especially after dealing with Mordremoth. We knew it was safe with the exalted, but Rytlock still had to have that "protect her egg at all costs" mindset.

7. Rytlock THEN was forced to go to the black citadel and talk to the brass about what happened. When you have all this emotional baggage you have to carry, the last thing you want to do is deal with military types who want to grill you over a hot fire and demand answers when you're still going through huge emotional turmoil. He refused the first three letters and then was faced down with two charr who were ready to take in Rytlock by force. Rytlock just went with it, and was then, for ages, in the Black Citadel, talking about the mists and how to be a revenant, possibly even training a few charr.

8. Rytlock's first appearance since travelling to the black citadel was at Amnoon in Path of Fire. So that's even more time Rytlock didn't have to talk about what happened in the mists, since he wasn't present. And of course, we have to put out literal fires caused by a rampaging god of war. Rytlock, being a military type, is probably better at dealing with a situation at hand rather than unloading his emotional baggage, which he's still dealing with.

9. THEN Rytlock meets Balthazar, who personally thanks him, Rytlock suddenly draws a connection between a thing he more than likely forgot about or dismissed, and then tells the commander.

 

We also directly see how emotional turmoil affects Rytlock, in Glint's Lair. He has to take a moment after the fighting to just sit down and stare at Snaff's golem. He STILL carries that burden, and for the second time is directly faced with the emotional burden of his failure in the aftermath of that event (Eir died in front of him as well, so there must also be that on top of Glint and Snaff's deaths, which he must be reminded of).

 

There's a LOT of very important reasons why Ryltock not telling the commander is in no way a betrayal. What Rytlock went through (and is still probably dealing with silently) and the decisions as a result is in no way comparable to the direct betrayals by Logan and Caithe. Logan chose to abandon Destiny's Edge at the eve of what may have been the most important battle in history, one that could have saved all the lives taken by Kralkatorrik and his branded from that moment onwards, and Logan is responsible for that. Caithe chose to steal the egg that the commander was going to protect anyway, making it a betrayal as well, since Caithe must have known deep in her heart that the commander would have taken care of it, but she had Mordremoth whispering in her ear. Moredremoth, who would have turned her into one of the mordrem if she wavered for even an instance. She proved unable to lean on her friends in her most dire circumstances, and thus was proven to be untrustworthy. She also, however, refused to tell anyone about how the Sylvari were the minions of Mordremoth and could have prevented countless Sylvari from becoming Mordrem by preparing for it and also maybe preventing Aerin from taking down the Zephyrites and perhaps even may have seen Moredremoth's influences on Scarlet (or cause someone else to realise that). Both Logan and Caithe still worked on being trustworthy again and both have made advancements in that direction. Both of those are above and beyond intentional actions by both those characters that resulted in countless avoidable deaths. Rytlock didn't make an intentional decision to release a fallen Balthazar, the only intentional decision Rytlock made was to save someone in the mists who was bound in chains, a very far cry from betrayal at any level.

[Torolan.5816]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> I think you're making a huge mistake in determining what is or is not critical information.

>

> 1. Rytlock didn't know it was Balthazar. If Rytlock had known it was Balthazar, he would have told the commander. The critical information is that it was Balthazar. THAT is the critical information. The Balthazar part. Which Rytlock didn't know. So Rytlock didn't hold back critical information, because it could have been literally anyone, and literally anyone else wouldn't have mattered.

> 2. Rytlock had no possible way to know that Balthazar left the mists. Rytlock left first. He didn't wait for this other random dude to walk through the portal, Rytlock just went through the portal. For all Rytlock knew, this human like being could have just stayed back in the mists. He had absolutely no reason and no way of knowing that this being would have crossed back into tyria. So why is it important for Rytlock to tell the commander that he met a random dude in the mists who opened a portal if Rytlock had no idea the figure would follow him through it?

> 3. What Caithe and Logan did is so fundamentally different than what Rytlock did, it's honestly comparing mountain ranges to a mosquito bite. Caithe and Logan took DIRECT decisions to betray their allies. Caithe stole the egg from the commander, who she knew was a good person and who would protect the egg at all costs. Logan abandoned Destiny's Edge, knowing they were about to fight an elder dragon. Rytlock knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the being he freed in the mists. Rytlock didn't betray anyone. Rytlock was duped. Logan and Caithe knew EXACTLY what they were doing, Rytlock only wanted his sword back and saved a dude who was chained in return.

> 4. Rytlock left the mists through the portal directly into the battle with the Mordrem. Remember, that was Rytlock's first moment back from the mists. His priority was ultimately killing Mordremoth.

> 5. Rytlock met Glint in the mists and learned revenant magic from her. The amount of emotional turmoil from meeting a literal ghost from the past outweighs any of his other experiences in the mists. That's a ton of baggage to carry when you're directly faced with a ghost who reminds you of the fact that you failed to protect them. Rytlock has the baggage of both Snaff and Glint on his shoulders. And now, Rytlock essentially carries Glint with him everywhere he goes.

> 6. Eir died in the Maguuma Jungle, and Rytlock failed to save her too. That's a third death of someone who was so close to him and so important. Also in the Maguuma Jungle was Glint's egg, that had to also be another priority for Rytlock, especially after dealing with Mordremoth. We knew it was safe with the exalted, but Rytlock still had to have that "protect her egg at all costs" mindset.

> 7. Rytlock THEN was forced to go to the black citadel and talk to the brass about what happened. When you have all this emotional baggage you have to carry, the last thing you want to do is deal with military types who want to grill you over a hot fire and demand answers when you're still going through huge emotional turmoil. He refused the first three letters and then was faced down with two charr who were ready to take in Rytlock by force. Rytlock just went with it, and was then, for ages, in the Black Citadel, talking about the mists and how to be a revenant, possibly even training a few charr.

> 8. Rytlock's first appearance since travelling to the black citadel was at Amnoon in Path of Fire. So that's even more time Rytlock didn't have to talk about what happened in the mists, since he wasn't present. And of course, we have to put out literal fires caused by a rampaging god of war. Rytlock, being a military type, is probably better at dealing with a situation at hand rather than unloading his emotional baggage, which he's still dealing with.

> 9. THEN Rytlock meets Balthazar, who personally thanks him, Rytlock suddenly draws a connection between a thing he more than likely forgot about or dismissed, and then tells the commander.

>

> We also directly see how emotional turmoil affects Rytlock, in Glint's Lair. He has to take a moment after the fighting to just sit down and stare at Snaff's golem. He STILL carries that burden, and for the second time is directly faced with the emotional burden of his failure in the aftermath of that event (Eir died in front of him as well, so there must also be that on top of Glint and Snaff's deaths, which he must be reminded of).

>

> There's a LOT of very important reasons why Ryltock not telling the commander is in no way a betrayal. What Rytlock went through (and is still probably dealing with silently) and the decisions as a result is in no way comparable to the direct betrayals by Logan and Caithe. Logan chose to abandon Destiny's Edge at the eve of what may have been the most important battle in history, one that could have saved all the lives taken by Kralkatorrik and his branded from that moment onwards, and Logan is responsible for that. Caithe chose to steal the egg that the commander was going to protect anyway, making it a betrayal as well, since Caithe must have known deep in her heart that the commander would have taken care of it, but she had Mordremoth whispering in her ear. Moredremoth, who would have turned her into one of the mordrem if she wavered for even an instance. She proved unable to lean on her friends in her most dire circumstances, and thus was proven to be untrustworthy. She also, however, refused to tell anyone about how the Sylvari were the minions of Mordremoth and could have prevented countless Sylvari from becoming Mordrem by preparing for it and also maybe preventing Aerin from taking down the Zephyrites and perhaps even may have seen Moredremoth's influences on Scarlet (or cause someone else to realise that). Both Logan and Caithe still worked on being trustworthy again and both have made advancements in that direction. Both of those are above and beyond intentional actions by both those characters that resulted in countless avoidable deaths. Rytlock didn't make an intentional decision to release a fallen Balthazar, the only intentional decision Rytlock made was to save someone in the mists who was bound in chains, a very far cry from betrayal at any level.

 

1. I agree, although it would have been surely been interesting for the commander to learn about a presence powerful enough to reignite an artifact. And Rytlock could have probably paused for a moment, reflecting why this super powerful being was chained here. He must also have met Glint before that so either Glint did not know about Balthazar(highly doubtful) or kept that information from Rytlock for a reason.

2. If I free a powerful being from his chains, I can safely assume that the being is also able to get out of the mists once unchained.

3. Agree with this point. It was not clever, but it was not a betrayal in the style of Logan or Caithe.

4. Agree. Pressing matters are pressing. Still there was some time between Mordremoth and Balthazar to tell about what happened in the mists. Does he not even brush aside the question once?

5+6. Also agree, it´s emotional baggage. Still the main culprit for the death of Snaff and Glint is Logan, and the one responsible for the death of Eir is Faolain.

7. He is a leader in a soldier society. If he can´t even report when in turmoil, he should be demoted. It´s the same with Logan to be honest, that guy is totally unfit for any staff position and captain material at best.

8+9. Agree.

 

Rytlock is not a betrayer in the sense of Logan and Caithe, he is more of a guy withholding interesting information that could have been crucial. It was crucial, so tough luck for him.

 

And if you want to be a real nitpicker, lets assume DE had managed to slay Kralkatorrik then. If Taimi is right, Tyria would not be right on the brink of destruction but probably right in the middle of destruction. So if you want to paint Logan as hero and Rytlock as an idiot, you can also twist it in a way that Logan saved Tyria by not showing up and Rytlock should retrospectively feel guilty for the attack against the dragon.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> I think you're making a huge mistake in determining what is or is not critical information.

>

> 1. Rytlock didn't know it was Balthazar. If Rytlock had known it was Balthazar, he would have told the commander. The critical information is that it was Balthazar. THAT is the critical information. The Balthazar part. Which Rytlock didn't know. So Rytlock didn't hold back critical information, because it could have been literally anyone, and literally anyone else wouldn't have mattered.

> 2. Rytlock had no possible way to know that Balthazar left the mists. Rytlock left first. He didn't wait for this other random dude to walk through the portal, Rytlock just went through the portal. For all Rytlock knew, this human like being could have just stayed back in the mists. He had absolutely no reason and no way of knowing that this being would have crossed back into tyria. So why is it important for Rytlock to tell the commander that he met a random dude in the mists who opened a portal if Rytlock had no idea the figure would follow him through it?

> 3. What Caithe and Logan did is so fundamentally different than what Rytlock did, it's honestly comparing mountain ranges to a mosquito bite. Caithe and Logan took DIRECT decisions to betray their allies. Caithe stole the egg from the commander, who she knew was a good person and who would protect the egg at all costs. Logan abandoned Destiny's Edge, knowing they were about to fight an elder dragon. Rytlock knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the being he freed in the mists. Rytlock didn't betray anyone. Rytlock was duped. Logan and Caithe knew EXACTLY what they were doing, Rytlock only wanted his sword back and saved a dude who was chained in return.

> 4. Rytlock left the mists through the portal directly into the battle with the Mordrem. Remember, that was Rytlock's first moment back from the mists. His priority was ultimately killing Mordremoth.

> 5. Rytlock met Glint in the mists and learned revenant magic from her. The amount of emotional turmoil from meeting a literal ghost from the past outweighs any of his other experiences in the mists. That's a ton of baggage to carry when you're directly faced with a ghost who reminds you of the fact that you failed to protect them. Rytlock has the baggage of both Snaff and Glint on his shoulders. And now, Rytlock essentially carries Glint with him everywhere he goes.

> 6. Eir died in the Maguuma Jungle, and Rytlock failed to save her too. That's a third death of someone who was so close to him and so important. Also in the Maguuma Jungle was Glint's egg, that had to also be another priority for Rytlock, especially after dealing with Mordremoth. We knew it was safe with the exalted, but Rytlock still had to have that "protect her egg at all costs" mindset.

> 7. Rytlock THEN was forced to go to the black citadel and talk to the brass about what happened. When you have all this emotional baggage you have to carry, the last thing you want to do is deal with military types who want to grill you over a hot fire and demand answers when you're still going through huge emotional turmoil. He refused the first three letters and then was faced down with two charr who were ready to take in Rytlock by force. Rytlock just went with it, and was then, for ages, in the Black Citadel, talking about the mists and how to be a revenant, possibly even training a few charr.

> 8. Rytlock's first appearance since travelling to the black citadel was at Amnoon in Path of Fire. So that's even more time Rytlock didn't have to talk about what happened in the mists, since he wasn't present. And of course, we have to put out literal fires caused by a rampaging god of war. Rytlock, being a military type, is probably better at dealing with a situation at hand rather than unloading his emotional baggage, which he's still dealing with.

> 9. THEN Rytlock meets Balthazar, who personally thanks him, Rytlock suddenly draws a connection between a thing he more than likely forgot about or dismissed, and then tells the commander.

>

> We also directly see how emotional turmoil affects Rytlock, in Glint's Lair. He has to take a moment after the fighting to just sit down and stare at Snaff's golem. He STILL carries that burden, and for the second time is directly faced with the emotional burden of his failure in the aftermath of that event (Eir died in front of him as well, so there must also be that on top of Glint and Snaff's deaths, which he must be reminded of).

>

> There's a LOT of very important reasons why Ryltock not telling the commander is in no way a betrayal. What Rytlock went through (and is still probably dealing with silently) and the decisions as a result is in no way comparable to the direct betrayals by Logan and Caithe. Logan chose to abandon Destiny's Edge at the eve of what may have been the most important battle in history, one that could have saved all the lives taken by Kralkatorrik and his branded from that moment onwards, and Logan is responsible for that. Caithe chose to steal the egg that the commander was going to protect anyway, making it a betrayal as well, since Caithe must have known deep in her heart that the commander would have taken care of it, but she had Mordremoth whispering in her ear. Moredremoth, who would have turned her into one of the mordrem if she wavered for even an instance. She proved unable to lean on her friends in her most dire circumstances, and thus was proven to be untrustworthy. She also, however, refused to tell anyone about how the Sylvari were the minions of Mordremoth and could have prevented countless Sylvari from becoming Mordrem by preparing for it and also maybe preventing Aerin from taking down the Zephyrites and perhaps even may have seen Moredremoth's influences on Scarlet (or cause someone else to realise that). Both Logan and Caithe still worked on being trustworthy again and both have made advancements in that direction. Both of those are above and beyond intentional actions by both those characters that resulted in countless avoidable deaths. Rytlock didn't make an intentional decision to release a fallen Balthazar, the only intentional decision Rytlock made was to save someone in the mists who was bound in chains, a very far cry from betrayal at any level.

 

1. The problem for me comes in the fact that this spirit was somehow able to reignite Sohothan, something that presumably not everyone could do. After all if any old fire elementalists could empower a flaming godsword why would he be desperate enough to free some unknown entity from the Mists to fuel it? That is a massive piece of information, and one that Rytlock *especially* should know because he spent forever studying that sword. If the command were to then look into Sohothans history(Something else that Rytlocks been keeping from us.)we would of then quite possibly been able to deduce that only something linked to Balthazar could pull that off. If we knew some rogue god entity was wandering around we could of opened up an investigation, because the last thing we need after all the business with Mordromoth is an unknown factor.

2. Out into Tyria, out into the wider Mists, either way an enormously powerful being we don't understand is just out there. Even if that being 'looks like every other one' in the Mists, if he felt it was so irrelevant and the Black Citadel had him keeping back for no reason, then he should go ahead and tell us because it doesn't matter.

3. Rytlock was duped by Balthazar, but not by the Black Citadel or himself, which is where the treachery is coming from. He either put his nation, or his privacy, ahead of telling the commander about the experience. An experience i'm not sure how anyone could construe as irrelevant as it led into his current condition as a Reverant. We asked him multiple times, over and over again about what he saw and he just refused. Unlike Logan he didn't have the love of his life calling him back to Ebonhawke to save her, nor did he have the irrational pulse of a Wyld Hunt clouding his judgement. I wouldn't argue it's the same, i'd argue it's actually more severe.

4. Sure, but he kept his trap shut even after the battle with Mordromoth was finished. He didn't say anything even when Balthazar did show up even though HE HAD to of been getting an inkling of what had transpired at that point, and confirms as much in PoF.

5. Perhaps he should channel that guilt into giving his friends important information so it doesn't happen _again._

6. I can get he's grieving, and thus not thinking straight, but if there is ever a time to tell your friends about such an experience it's when the whole fate of the world is in balance and we can't afford to have any surprises, when fighting the Mordrem or with Aurene.

7. Sure, he may not want to talk to the Citadel about what happened and may in some way prioritize them over us. But not enough to not ultimately answer the call and then withhold this classified information until the last possible moment, at best I can give him Brownie points for sticking around until he was 'forced' to go, though those Charr guards didn't seem like they were eager to try and take him anywhere.

8. At the very least he could of sent us mail, especially after what happened with Lazerous, unless he just completely kept himself out of the loop.

9. As I said before, given the nature of Sohothan and just how, in general a weird experience it was, Rytlock would have to be colossally stupid to not realize the significance especially when he knows perfectly well what Sohothan is. Really that's the best case scenario for what happened if we're being generous, massive stupidity.

 

I think it's telling that people will say these reasons are important, but will at the same time dismiss how irrelevant the scenario is even though without hindsight it'd still feel like a massively important experience, especially to someone who knows what Rytlock knows. At this point it's whether you attribute it to idiocy or malice, or both, and either way deserve at the very least an apology. But Rytlocks the same snarky callous idiot he's been for awhile now, and I doubt he'd bring it up unless pushed to. Because of him we lost the chance to potentially save thousands of lives, and he did so to a person like the Pact Commander who like him is traumatized by loss, and he did this either out of selfishness or orders from someone else. To me, that reeks of treachery, there's few other ways to describe it.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> Thing is... I don't think it would've prevented _anything._

>

> Let's say Rytlock _did_ come clean to the Commander. Then let's say that they put their heads together and developed a suspicion that this stranger capable of relighting Sohothin was Balthazar. Let's even suspend disbelief and say that they were then able to pick up Balthazar's trail, despite Balthazar having a mirror that'd let him appear to be virtually anything and anyone, and the Commander needing to deal with a dragon subverting an entire race of allies and a bloodstone exploding and a civil war in another race of allies and two more dragons suddenly showing a surge of activity, all on top of personal concerns that all this magic exposure might be driving them insane... let's set all that aside and say that the Commander located Balthazar, and trailed him long enough to deduce that he was out to kill the dragons.

>

> The Commander probably would've walked up and said 'Oh, thank the Six- I mean, you- this will be so much easier with a god on board.'

>

> Remember, we didn't stop wanting the same thing as Balthazar until after we'd figured out everything anyway. That machine Balthazar almost used to destroy the world? We had it developed _specifically to do that,_ if anything in a more destructive way, since we wouldn't have been able to jack in and absorb some of the power that we would otherwise have unleashed. Knowing Balthazar's identity would only have made things worse, since we'd be more inclined to trust a historical ally than a historical enemy like Lazarus. What if we had told him about the machine early? The only reason Taimi went back to check her work and discover that killing dragons was apocalyptic was because she had misgivings about the way Balthazar seized the machine by force. If we had approached him, put him in a position where he didn't have to resort to that, there's every possibility that Tyria would be gone before we even knew it was at risk.

>

> I honestly think Rytlock's silence, irritating as it was, may have inadvertently saved the world.

 

I think the reason that doesn't work for me, is that the moment we realized it was Balthazar we would of had a very important question: Why, precisely. were you locked up and who could even do that?

 

I called this early in the last living world Season, Balthazar was imprisoned by the gods. Nobody, NOBODY save them has the power to strip a divine being of power and lock them into the Mists. Anyone even remotely familiar with the day the night fell would immediately recognize that, for some reason, Balthazar had been banished. Which would of then immediately led into the question "Why did the Gods NOT want us to kill the Dragons?" at which point, I think we would of at the very least seriously reconsidered what we were about to do with Primordius and Jormagg.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Was not simply "his interests",

remember that he was ignoring the messages of the Black Citadel, until they sent 2 guards to bring him by force if necessary.

The only thing I think is out of place is, since(until the Pof events) he thought the Balthazar was only a random ghost of the mists, why stay so secretive about a meaningless ghost?

[Loesh.4697]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> Was not simply "his interests",

> remember that he was ignoring the messages of the Black Citadel, until they sent 2 guards to bring him by force if necessary.

> The only thing I think is out of place is, since(until the Pof events) he thought the Balthazar was only a random ghost of the mists, why stay so secretive about a meaningless ghost?

 

I mean, that's the other thing i was thinking. We were going in circles about the Black Citadel aspect up above in several posts. The other possibility is that, for some reason he thought an 'irrelevant' ghost that could reignite SOHOTHAN wasn't worth talking about, and so not-worth-talking-about that he apparently can't give us five minutes to say something because he just doesn't want to waste our time that bad...I guess?

 

He would have to have a pretty damn good reason for not mentioning that, and 'it's not important' doesn't fall under that.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I mean, that's the other thing i was thinking. We were going in circles about the Black Citadel aspect up above in several posts. The other possibility is that, for some reason he thought an 'irrelevant' ghost that could reignite SOHOTHAN wasn't worth talking about, and so not-worth-talking-about that he apparently can't give us five minutes to say something because he just doesn't want to waste our time that bad...I guess?

 

another possibility, is that there is something else in his encounter with Glint that has not been revealed yet.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I mean, that's the other thing i was thinking. We were going in circles about the Black Citadel aspect up above in several posts. The other possibility is that, for some reason he thought an 'irrelevant' ghost that could reignite SOHOTHAN wasn't worth talking about, and so not-worth-talking-about that he apparently can't give us five minutes to say something because he just doesn't want to waste our time that bad...I guess?

>

> another possibility, is that there is something else in his encounter with Glint that has not been revealed yet.

 

I would totally accept that, if Glint had some kind of binding contract to not say anything here, if for some reason she scrambled his memory, SOMETHING. The main thrust of my post was that 'I didn't think it was important' and 'I was just following orders' simply wasn't good enough giving the far reaching consequences of the event and how fantastical what he experienced was, regardless of how meaningless he thought it was.

[Patty.3268]

I think Rytlock's reasoning is understandable, and that he didn't intentionally lie to us or withhold important information on purpose. I believe him when he says he didn't think it was important who restored his sword.

 

'I didn't think it was important': This sounds reasonable when thinking about what we know about the mists. They are a mystical dimension connecting several worlds and distort time and space, creating some sort of small alternative realities. Basically a dimension where everything is possible. Therefore, I guess its highly possible that somewhere in the Mists, there are ghosts that could have ignited the sword too, without being a god or Balthazar themselves. Rytlock probably thought he randomly stumbled upon such a ghost. And the fact that a "ghost" is chained doesn't mean he's a bad guy. The giant in the Cliffside fractal is chained too, but doesn't seem to be bad and actually gets freed by the players.

 

'I was just following orders': I don't think this can be held against Rytlock right now. If I remember correctly, we only know that information about his trip into the mists is classified, but we still don't know which information it actually is. It might have just been information about how you can communicate with the ghosts and become a revenant. Maybe the information that a ghost restored sohothin is classified, maybe not. Maybe the classified intel really only concerns the Charr, but has nothing to do with our fight against the dragons. What I'm trying to say is, you can't blame Rytlock for holding back intel without really knowing what he actually is holding back and without knowing if that intel is important for the fight. If at some point we realize Rytlock was only holding back irrelevant information, than blaming him for doing so wouldn't be justified at all. The fact that Rytlock told us important stuff as soon as he realized that it is important makes me think that the intel he is still holding back might indeed be irrelevant. At least for now.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> 1. The problem for me comes in the fact that this spirit was somehow able to reignite Sohothan, something that presumably not everyone could do. After all if any old fire elementalists could empower a flaming godsword why would he be desperate enough to free some unknown entity from the Mists to fuel it? That is a massive piece of information, and one that Rytlock *especially* should know because he spent forever studying that sword. If the command were to then look into Sohothans history(Something else that Rytlocks been keeping from us.)we would of then quite possibly been able to deduce that only something linked to Balthazar could pull that off. If we knew some rogue god entity was wandering around we could of opened up an investigation, because the last thing we need after all the business with Mordromoth is an unknown factor.

> 2. Out into Tyria, out into the wider Mists, either way an enormously powerful being we don't understand is just out there. Even if that being 'looks like every other one' in the Mists, if he felt it was so irrelevant and the Black Citadel had him keeping back for no reason, then he should go ahead and tell us because it doesn't matter.

> 3. Rytlock was duped by Balthazar, but not by the Black Citadel or himself, which is where the treachery is coming from. He either put his nation, or his privacy, ahead of telling the commander about the experience. An experience i'm not sure how anyone could construe as irrelevant as it led into his current condition as a Reverant. We asked him multiple times, over and over again about what he saw and he just refused. Unlike Logan he didn't have the love of his life calling him back to Ebonhawke to save her, nor did he have the irrational pulse of a Wyld Hunt clouding his judgement. I wouldn't argue it's the same, i'd argue it's actually more severe.

> 4. Sure, but he kept his trap shut even after the battle with Mordromoth was finished. He didn't say anything even when Balthazar did show up even though HE HAD to of been getting an inkling of what had transpired at that point, and confirms as much in PoF.

> 5. Perhaps he should channel that guilt into giving his friends important information so it doesn't happen _again._

> 6. I can get he's grieving, and thus not thinking straight, but if there is ever a time to tell your friends about such an experience it's when the whole fate of the world is in balance and we can't afford to have any surprises, when fighting the Mordrem or with Aurene.

> 7. Sure, he may not want to talk to the Citadel about what happened and may in some way prioritize them over us. But not enough to not ultimately answer the call and then withhold this classified information until the last possible moment, at best I can give him Brownie points for sticking around until he was 'forced' to go, though those Charr guards didn't seem like they were eager to try and take him anywhere.

> 8. At the very least he could of sent us mail, especially after what happened with Lazerous, unless he just completely kept himself out of the loop.

> 9. As I said before, given the nature of Sohothan and just how, in general a weird experience it was, Rytlock would have to be colossally stupid to not realize the significance especially when he knows perfectly well what Sohothan is. Really that's the best case scenario for what happened if we're being generous, massive stupidity.

>

> I think it's telling that people will say these reasons are important, but will at the same time dismiss how irrelevant the scenario is even though without hindsight it'd still feel like a massively important experience, especially to someone who knows what Rytlock knows. At this point it's whether you attribute it to idiocy or malice, or both, and either way deserve at the very least an apology. But Rytlocks the same snarky callous idiot he's been for awhile now, and I doubt he'd bring it up unless pushed to. Because of him we lost the chance to potentially save thousands of lives, and he did so to a person like the Pact Commander who like him is traumatized by loss, and he did this either out of selfishness or orders from someone else. To me, that reeks of treachery, there's few other ways to describe it.

 

1. There are all manner of powerful beings within the mists. It's not an impossible thing that a random dude would be able to light the sword. We don't know what other dangers Rytlock faced in the mists. Glint managed to teach Rytlock a form of magic that wasn't widespread within Tyria, something she was unable to do when she was still alive, so we know for a fact that there are beings who's capabilities change when entering the mists. Plus, the sword seemingly landed next to Balthazar. That's WHEN he found the sword. Balthazar offered to reignite the sword that landed right in front of him. It's not like Rytlock went around the mists carrying the sword for ages and THEN found Balthazar (which is where your seeming misunderstanding of the situation is coming from). Rytlock found the sword and Balthazar together. Balthazar immediately offers to reignite the sword and then offers a portal to Tyria. Rytlock jumped at the very first chance of getting the sword back.

2. Your argument misses the point if you see no difference between a powerful being existing within the mists or a powerful being entering Tyria. Powerful beings just naturally exist within the mists. The ONLY time a being in the mists becomes a threat is when they enter Tyria. So yes, there IS a massive difference between just another powerful being in the mists and a being that entered Tyria from the mists. Because, and I'll repeat the argument, _**the only time a being in the mists becomes a threat to us is when they enter Tyria**_. If Rytlock assumed this random dude stayed in the mists, then it truly is irrelevant information.

3. a) Again, HOW is the experience of a random powerful being who opened a portal into Tyria important, especially if Rytlock assumed the being stayed within the mists? If Rytlock thought the information was irrelevant, then it's not any form of 'treachery' if he didn't tell us something he viewed as irrelevant. Or do you want Rytlock to tell us the colours of every flower in the mists?

b) Any argument that says 'withholding information is far worse than active actions of betrayal' so fundamentally misunderstands what treachery is that I honestly have to pull out the dictionary definition: betrayal of trust, the quality of being deceptive. Rytlock was neither of those things. Rytlock did NOT betray the commander's trust at any point by not talking about what happened in the mists. If you so believe that withholding information is far far worse than taking direct actions of betrayal, then there's no discussion to be had with you. No matter what the reasoning was, Logan betrayed Destiny's edge and Caithe betrayed the commander and co, Rytlock just didn't talk about his experiences.

4. Misses the point of the emotional impact of losing another member of Destiny's edge, though that came at a later point in this thread, the emotional impact of Eir's death takes far more priority over, again, a random powerful being in the mists, of which there are possibly COUNTLESS that Rytlock encountered.

5. One more time, HOW is 'another powerful being exists within the mists' important information?

6. Again, if Rytlock thought that the being didn't leave the mists, then how is it urgent information?

7. One of the two guards was falling head over heels for Rytlock, the other one was willing to take Rytlock out and held absolutely no love for Rytlock.

 

> Veteran Adamant Team Lead: Rytlock Brimstone.

> Rytlock Brimstone: That's "Tribune" to you, soldier.

> Veteran Adamant Team Lead: Not any more, it's not.

> Veteran Adamant Team Lead: You've ignored numerous requests from the Black Citadel to account for your time in the Mists and explain this new...magic.

> Veteran Adamant Team Lead: Thus, you've been stripped of your rank and are hereby charged with dereliction of duty.

> Veteran Vikon: You're to come with us, Rytlock... Sir.

> Rytlock Brimstone: And if I don't?

> Veteran Adamant Team Lead: We've been authorized to use force.

> Veteran Vikon: But we'd hate to cause a scene.

> Rytlock Brimstone: I'm sure you would, pup.

> Rytlock Brimstone: Getting this assignment, you two must either be the best warriors in the Iron Legion, or the ones with the worst luck...

> Rytlock Brimstone: So?

> Veteran Adamant Team Lead: Top of my class.

> Veteran Vikon: But it's starting to feel like both...

> : Rytlock?

> Rytlock Brimstone: It's okay, Commander. I'll straighten this out. It appears I underestimated the citadel's response.

> Rytlock Brimstone: Hope you enjoy the medal I'm earning you today, soldier. You get to return with Rytlock Brimstone in tow.

> Veteran Vikon: Without a fight?

> Rytlock Brimstone: Depends on my travel accommodations.

> Veteran Vikon: You can have my seat!

> Veteran Adamant Team Lead: C'mon, Vikon, you gonna groom him too?

> Rytlock Brimstone: Sorry I'll miss out on all the fun, Commander. I'll catch up with you as soon as I'm able.

 

So as a matter of fact, one was entirely willing to arrest Rytlock, the other one knew of Rytlock's reputation and either has admiration for him or is extremely concerned with not pissing him off. Again, you fundamentally misunderstand what happened, especially if you think Rytlock was not forced to go, which he absolutely was.

 

8. How is Lazarus popping up the time to send information about another random dude from the mists? It's irrelevant. Lazarus popping up to cause chaos is entirely unrelated to what happened in the mists, and later the reveal about Lazarus being Balthazar ALSO has nothing to do with what happened in the mists (until the reveal is made in Path of Fire). Rytlock also saw Balthazar for the very first time in Path of Fire, and we're not given any information on whether Rytlock recognised Balthazar or not.

 

> Balthazar: Very well. You face the god of war, mortal creatures, and I tire of your meddling.

> Character name: So be it. Your herald is dead. I killed her.

> Balthazar: You could have replaced her, but you refused my offer. We'll have no more words, Tyrian. Only death.

> Balthazar: Charr...you, friend, I will spare. But my mercy ends there.

> Character name: "Friend"?

 

And that's the dialogue before Rytlock's first fight against Balthazar.

 

9. Massive stupidity? Rytlock isn't intimately knowledgeable of human lore. If Rytlock was human, we could then put the 'massive stupidity' label on him. But Rytlock is a charr. He wouldn't give any significance to human lore unless it was directly relevant to something he was accomplishing (the ritual to take care of the foefire ghosts).

 

Also, here's the dialogue surrounding his time in the mists:

 

> Speaking with Rytlock

> If spoke to Canach and Kasmeer first

> Rytlock Brimstone: Canach, Kasmeer... They okay?

> Character name: Rytlock, what just happened? Why did Balthazar spare you? Call you "friend"?

> Rytlock Brimstone: He... Balthazar... I think we met once before.

> Character name: What do you mean? When?

> Rytlock Brimstone: When I was looking for my sword, Sohothin. In the Mists.

> Voiceover during the cinematic

> Rytlock Brimstone: I don't know how long I'd been looking. It's easy to lose track of time in the Mists.

> Rytlock Brimstone: But when I finally found Sohothin, its flame had been extinguished.

> Rytlock Brimstone: Then I saw the stranger, in chains. He told me he could reignite my sword.

> Rytlock Brimstone: I didn't ask his name, or why he'd been imprisoned there. I only asked him to restore Sohothin's flame.

> Rytlock Brimstone: To repay the favor, I used the sword to break the chains that bound him.

> Rytlock Brimstone: When I did, a portal opened. He told me it was a passage out of the Mists. A way home.

> Rytlock Brimstone: _**He must have followed me through. Escaping the Mists.**_ I didn't know until just moments ago, but that stranger...(voiceover says "...followed me out.)

> Rytlock Brimstone: ...was Balthazar.

> After the cinematic

> Rytlock Brimstone: _**He looked just like any other spirit trapped in the Mists.**_

> Rytlock Brimstone: I didn't know the truth until just now...

> Rytlock Brimstone: Commander... I'm gonna make this right.

> Character name: I know.

 

 

Emphasis mine (also, look at the cinematic and how close the sword was to Balthazar). If Balthazar looked like any other spirit trapped in the mists, it fundamentally proves the point that, to Rytlock, it wasn't relevant information, because in all likelihood, he just WAS another spirit in the mists, a powerful one at that, but he also met Glint in the mists:

 

> Talking with Rytlock

> : This was Snaff's golem, wasn't it?

> Rytlock Brimstone: What's left of it, yeah.

> Rytlock Brimstone: I failed my guildmates, Commander. I failed Glint.

> Rytlock Brimstone: Balthazar wasn't the only one I ran into during my time in the Mists.

> Rytlock Brimstone: I also met Glint. She taught me the ways of the revenant.

> Rytlock Brimstone: I thought she meant for me to finish the job Destiny's Edge started. But here we are, trying to save Kralkatorrik.

> Rytlock Brimstone: That damned dragon is still alive, and Glint, Snaff, and Eir...they're all dead.

> Rytlock Brimstone: (sigh) I need a win, boss. I gotta make this right. Let's take Balthazar down.

 

Just look at Rytlock's dialogue here. Rytlock is clearly in pain. He's carrying the weight of all those deaths. He has so much to process.

 

So here's the important things to consider:

Rytlock met someone who "looked just like any other spirit trapped in the mists". The mists is home to an impossible number of powerful beings, one of which was Glint who taught Balthazar a form of magic he hadn't encountered before. Rytlock also assumed that the spirit stayed in the mists. The existence of powerful beings in the mists isn't newsworthy and only becomes newsworthy if those beings cross over into Tyria, which Rytlock didn't know Balthazar entered Tyria. Rytlock also isn't going to be the knowledge base of human god lore. Balthazar also has to deal with a ton of emotional baggage, including the most recent death of Eir.

 

So there just isn't enough breathing room for Rytlock to really talk about his time in the mists, especially something as irrelevant as another random trapped spirit who just happened to be powerful and reignite the sword, _**especially if Rytlock thought the being stayed in the mists**_.

 

So, with all that in mind, the only possible conclusion that can be arrived to is that Rytlock didn't betray anyone, he didn't commit any form of treachery, the only thing we can accuse him of is taking his time to process the death of his friends, prioritizing killing mordremoth and not knowing enough about human lore to realise who Balthazar was (because he's a charr). Nothing close to treachery or betraying anyone's trust.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Caithe chose to steal the egg. Rytlock was an unwitting dupe; his only failing was that he didn't tell anyone. His comeuppance? He has to pal around with the likes of Canach & the Commander, while watching Logan "Runaway" Thackeray become the Leader of the Pact.

 

Rytlock chose to free the strange figure chained up in the Mists after being promised what he wanted.

 

Caithe chose to steal the egg while her head was being bombarded with whispers by Mordremoth disguised as her own thoughts, all telling her not to trust her friends.

 

Rytlock should have been damned suspicious of a _locked up person_. People don't get locked up without a reason - they either pissed off a powerful villain, or they are the villain. Caithe at least has the excuse of being mentally mindfucked.

[derd.6413]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>People don't get locked up without a reason - they either pissed off a powerful villain, or they are the villain. Caithe at least has the excuse of being mentally mindfucked.

 

like how we freed the colossus in the cliffside fractal?

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> like how we freed the colossus in the cliffside fractal?

 

From my understanding, the fractals are events that have already happened in history, one way or another. So technically speaking WE didn't free colossus. The colossus was freed by unknown agents at a previous point in history, and the fractal allowed us to relive that experience, just like we took the place of whatever asura was there when the thaumanova reactor blew up, or when we became flame legion charr and took over an ascalonian outpost.

 

Fractals are kind of a 'experience history for yourself' thing rather than walking around in the mists and freeing random spirits.

[derd.6413]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > like how we freed the colossus in the cliffside fractal?

>

> From my understanding, the fractals are events that have already happened in history, one way or another. So technically speaking WE didn't free colossus. The colossus was freed by unknown agents at a previous point in history, and the fractal allowed us to relive that experience, just like we took the place of whatever asura was there when the thaumanova reactor blew up, or when we became flame legion charr and took over an ascalonian outpost.

>

> Fractals are kind of a 'experience history for yourself' thing rather than walking around in the mists and freeing random spirits.

 

actually, anet has confirmed that revenants channel "fractals" of their legends and not the actual dead spirit so it's safe to assume that a lot/most things in the mists are "fractals" and not actually real.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > like how we freed the colossus in the cliffside fractal?

>

> From my understanding, the fractals are events that have already happened in history, one way or another. So technically speaking WE didn't free colossus. The colossus was freed by unknown agents at a previous point in history, and the fractal allowed us to relive that experience, just like we took the place of whatever asura was there when the thaumanova reactor blew up, or when we became flame legion charr and took over an ascalonian outpost.

>

> Fractals are kind of a 'experience history for yourself' thing rather than walking around in the mists and freeing random spirits.

 

Technically, the fractals are _initially_ events that have already happened. When we enter, we're effectively "altering history" as there were no five intrepid adventurers killing everything hostile originally. But of course we're not actually changing history, since the fractals are merely _copies_ of a specific time and place (or a specific mixture of times and places).

 

> @"derd.6413" said:

> actually, anet has confirmed that revenants channel "fractals" of their legends and not the actual dead spirit so it's safe to assume that a lot/most things in the mists are "fractals" and not actually real.

 

Well, **everything** is in the Mists, technically speaking. This not only includes Tyria itself, but also the afterlives such as The Underworld and Fissure of Woe. Not everything in the Mists is a copy of something else like the Fractals and echoes.

[Jimbru.6014]

If you pay attention to Rytlock's dialogue in game, you'll realize that he feels a tremendous amount of guilt (some justifiably, some not) over everything that's happened, from Snaff's death all the way up to the consequences of him freeing Balthazar. Some of that guilt he has projected on others such as Logan (again, some justifiably, some not) but he's still carrying an emotional load, and macho-militant Charr society generally doesn't equip its members to be deep emotional thinkers. If you could get him to admit it, Rytlock is probably feeling in over his horns with everything that's happened because of him and/or around him. And in his favor, let it be noted that he wants to make things right and is actively trying to do so. Unlike Caithe, who just says things and then disappears, only to cause even more chaos every time she turns up. If Rytlock and Caithe were two people in real life, I think Rytlock and I could be real friends. But I wouldn't even speak to Caithe voluntarily, much less trust her out of my line of sight.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Technically, the fractals are _initially_ events that have already happened. When we enter, we're effectively "altering history" as there were no five intrepid adventurers killing everything hostile originally. But of course we're not actually changing history, since the fractals are merely _copies_ of a specific time and place (or a specific mixture of times and places).

 

Are these copies self contained? Like, does the copy only begin exist so long as we enter and then it ceases to exist after we exit? Or are we technically altering a different time line?

[Jimbru.6014]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Caithe chose to steal the egg. Rytlock was an unwitting dupe; his only failing was that he didn't tell anyone. His comeuppance? He has to pal around with the likes of Canach & the Commander, while watching Logan "Runaway" Thackeray become the Leader of the Pact.

>

> Rytlock chose to free the strange figure chained up in the Mists after being promised what he wanted.

>

> Caithe chose to steal the egg while her head was being bombarded with whispers by Mordremoth disguised as her own thoughts, all telling her not to trust her friends.

>

> Rytlock should have been damned suspicious of a _locked up person_. People don't get locked up without a reason - they either pissed off a powerful villain, or they are the villain. Caithe at least has the excuse of being mentally mindfucked.

 

Rytlock, like most Charr, is a soldier who thinks mostly in straight lines. Subtleties and subtext aren't his forte. In his mind, he had a mission, which was to get Sohothin back. He did that. He just didn't understand the consequences it would have. Sort of like calling in an airstrike in Iraq only to find out the bad guys were using civilians as human shields. Good intentions, but the unforeseen collateral damage is a literal killer...

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > Caithe chose to steal the egg. Rytlock was an unwitting dupe; his only failing was that he didn't tell anyone. His comeuppance? He has to pal around with the likes of Canach & the Commander, while watching Logan "Runaway" Thackeray become the Leader of the Pact.

> >

> > Rytlock chose to free the strange figure chained up in the Mists after being promised what he wanted.

> >

> > Caithe chose to steal the egg while her head was being bombarded with whispers by Mordremoth disguised as her own thoughts, all telling her not to trust her friends.

> >

> > Rytlock should have been damned suspicious of a _locked up person_. People don't get locked up without a reason - they either pissed off a powerful villain, or they are the villain. Caithe at least has the excuse of being mentally mindfucked.

>

> Rytlock, like most Charr, is a soldier who thinks mostly in straight lines. Subtleties and subtext aren't his forte. In his mind, he had a mission, which was to get Sohothin back. He did that. He just didn't understand the consequences it would have. Sort of like calling in an airstrike in Iraq only to find out the bad guys were using civilians as human shields. Good intentions, but the unforeseen collateral damage is a literal killer...

 

 

Only more reason to distrust him I think, if he can't be bothered to confirm information before doing something then he's at best vestigial to us. At worst he should be locked up for his crimes, and as pointed out nothing was mentally warping Rytlocks mind in the same way as the Wyld Hunt when he did it. If he is willing to do anything to achieve his objective, no matter the cost, he's a threat not a companion. I'd rather hang out with Caithe, who has the excuse of being mentally damaged then with someone who has nothing save 'guilt' to absolve him of his actions.

 

As to the other massive post: I can't think of a reason why NOT mentioning that you've freed a massive powerful mist entity isn't valuable information, kinda sticks out in my head. Rytlocks been researching that sword forever, even if he doesn't care about human things in general he should of recognized it was significant. If he did not, he's an idiot. If he did and didn't tell us, he's a traitor as far as i'm concerned and willing to put the Black Citadels interests ahead of our own. in either case I wouldn't trust him far as I could throw him.

 

It's not rocket science really, and no amount of potentially feeling bad makes up for the damage of whats been done. I suppose you could argue that an omission of information isn't treachery...except it's information that turned out to be directly relevant to us, withheld by him on behalf of the Citadel and at that point we were putting our trust in him that whatever he was hiding from us wouldn't screw us over. But it did, and it cost a lot of lives, there's not many other ways to slice it.

 

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> Only more reason to distrust him I think, if he can't be bothered to confirm information before doing something then he's at best vestigial to us. At worst he should be locked up for his crimes, and as pointed out nothing was mentally warping Rytlocks mind in the same way as the Wyld Hunt when he did it. If he is willing to do anything to achieve his objective, no matter the cost, he's a threat not a companion. I'd rather hang out with Caithe, who has the excuse of being mentally damaged then with someone who has nothing save 'guilt' to absolve him of his actions.

>

> As to the other massive post: I can't think of a reason why NOT mentioning that you've freed a massive powerful mist entity isn't valuable information, kinda sticks out in my head. Rytlocks been researching that sword forever, even if he doesn't care about human things in general he should of recognized it was significant. If he did not, he's an idiot. If he did and didn't tell us, he's a traitor as far as i'm concerned and willing to put the Black Citadels interests ahead of our own. in either case I wouldn't trust him far as I could throw him.

>

 

You're seriously twisting what's going on and ignoring points made.

 

If you think Rytlock not noticing subtleties is a reason to distrust him, then you seriously have no idea what trust is about (also, vestigial is not the right word there). What crime did Rytlock commit? You're being very vague about what crimes Rytlock has committed (which, factually speaking, he's committed no crimes). You're also seriously underestimating the power of guilt and what it can do to a person, even to a charr, which I highlighted in the previous post and you seemingly ignored.

 

The ENTIRE reason you might not mention freeing a powerful mist entity is the assumption that the mist entity **stayed in the mists**. That's the entire point I made, which you also seemingly missed or ignored, and more importantly it's Rytlock's point (which you, again, seemingly missed or ignored). If a powerful being in the mists stays in the mists, it's literally no concern of any mortal on Tyria, that's the entire point. The context changes since we now know it was Balthazar, but without knowing it was Balthazar, it's literally not important information, because why would we care that another powerful being in the mists is free, when the mists is so chock full of powerful beings anyway?

 

And again, Rytlock _wasn't willing_ to go to the Black citadel, I literally quoted why that was the case (another time you seemingly missed or ignored something I mentioned). Rytlock wanted nothing to do with the Black Citadel but was forced to do so under threat of prison time or worse if he disobeyed. He didn't put the interests of the Black Citadel in front of the commanders because he felt loyal, he did that under threat of severe punishment from higher ups.

 

It's almost like you're not willing to go with the actual talking points someone is making. It really seems like you just want to lay your hate on Rytlock despite the facts working against you. Was it the smartest decision to hold back that information? No, but it's understandable why he did because of all the emotional baggage and guilt he carried, especially after Eir's death. Was it treason? Absolutely not, there's no logical way you can consider it treason unless you wish to ignore facts.

 

EDIT: you edited your post while I was writing this, so lemme address the final point:

 

> It's not rocket science really, and no amount of potentially feeling bad makes up for the damage of whats been done. I suppose you could argue that an omission of information isn't treachery...except it's information that turned out to be directly relevant to us, withheld by him on behalf of the Citadel and at that point we were putting our trust in him that whatever he was hiding from us wouldn't screw us over. But it did, and it cost a lot of lives, there's not many other ways to slice it.

 

Your entire point hinges on the fact that it ended up being Balthazar. That's really what it's about. You're ignoring all the context, all the clues, all the valuable information that would go into Rytlock not sharing information about seemingly inconsequential things all because it turned out to be Balthazar.

 

Rytlock screwed up for sure, and he holds himself accountable for releasing Balthazar, but that's literally where it begins and ends. Rytlock did not commit treason, that is the be all and end all of reality at this point. If Rytlock knew it was Balthazar, he would have told the commander. Because he didn't know it was Balthazar and, more importantly, assumed that this random entity would have stayed in the mists, he cannot be blamed for telling the commander what was, ultimately, unimportant information. And without it being Balthazar, it WAS unimportant information. You're retroactively calling Rytlock a traitor for... not knowing... things...

 

That's not what a traitor is.

[Loesh.4697]

 

>

> You're seriously twisting what's going on and ignoring points made.

>

> If you think Rytlock not noticing subtleties is a reason to distrust him, then you seriously have no idea what trust is about (also, vestigial is not the right word there). What crime did Rytlock commit? You're being very vague about what crimes Rytlock has committed (which, factually speaking, he's committed no crimes). You're also seriously underestimating the power of guilt and what it can do to a person, even to a charr, which I highlighted in the previous post and you seemingly ignored.

>

> The ENTIRE reason you might not mention freeing a powerful mist entity is the assumption that the mist entity **stayed in the mists**. That's the entire point I made, which you also seemingly missed or ignored, and more importantly it's Rytlock's point (which you, again, seemingly missed or ignored). If a powerful being in the mists stays in the mists, it's literally no concern of any mortal on Tyria, that's the entire point. The context changes since we now know it was Balthazar, but without knowing it was Balthazar, it's literally not important information, because why would we care that another powerful being in the mists is free, when the mists is so chock full of powerful beings anyway?

>

> And again, Rytlock _wasn't willing_ to go to the Black citadel, I literally quoted why that was the case (another time you seemingly missed or ignored something I mentioned). Rytlock wanted nothing to do with the Black Citadel but was forced to do so under threat of prison time or worse if he disobeyed. He didn't put the interests of the Black Citadel in front of the commanders because he felt loyal, he did that under threat of severe punishment from higher ups.

>

> It's almost like you're not willing to go with the actual talking points someone is making. It really seems like you just want to lay your hate on Rytlock despite the facts working against you. Was it the smartest decision to hold back that information? No, but it's understandable why he did because of all the emotional baggage and guilt he carried, especially after Eir's death. Was it treason? Absolutely not, there's no logical way you can consider it treason unless you wish to ignore facts.

 

I'm doing neither. I hear what you're saying, and what you're saying doesn't resonate with me. It's invalid, morally repugnant even.

 

Rytlock could of taken five minutes to tell us what happened, whether he noticed what was up with Balthazar or not. We know he's putting things together by PoF, but we're already fighting a war god before he gets his head straight. I also was very careful with my wording, if we're being generous then Rytlock is vestigial. Useless to us because we can't trust him to tell us what we need to know, and at worst he's a threat because whenever he does something, wherever he goes, we don't know if he'll give us the whole story. What else could he omit from us? is it another thing that can result in thousands of deaths? something classified, or irrelevant, to him. But not to us. Why would he refuse to just TELL US SOMETHING just because of his guilt over Snaff, Eir, and the Edge? For months even?

 

I don't think I need to tell you this, but I will anyway. What happens in the Mists spills out into the real world, gods are housed there, whenever the balance of power changes it had drastic consequences on our reality. I didn't miss it, I thought the reasoning was flawed, powerful beings in the mists influence our world constantly. Assuming that something, especially in a world where DEMONS exist, will just stay there is naive beyond belief. You're underestimating how drastically the world beyond the veil impacts our lives, in a universe that has had Hell itself try to spill into it.

 

And i'v already talked about this previously in this thread. Sure the gesture of loyalty is nice, but considering his actions immediately after i'm more then a little upset. Trust needs to be constant, as does loyalty, and ultimately his loyalty to either the Black Citadel or himself won out.

 

If anyone is distorting the reality of the discussion it's you. I don't ignore the points, they simply don't resonate with me, none of them come of f as rational or understandable. I'v been presented with arguments that range from him believing it didn't matter, which just means he should spill it already, to him being crippled with guilt but apparently unwilling to share with his friends...friends who he feels guilty about failing...what was going on. If you want to critique Caithe and Logan for being traitors despite emotional baggage and mental alteration, then I can critique Rytlock for his explanation as coming off as both __hollow and vapid.__

 

I don't need to ignore facts to believe Rytlocks a traitor. He put something, either himself or the Citadel, above telling one of the most important people in the world a vital piece of information. The only other way to construe it is Rytlock is just a plain old idiot, pick one.

 

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I'm doing neither. I hear what you're saying, and what you're saying doesn't resonate with me. It's invalid, morally repugnant even.

 

Morally repugnant? What? This is the most unbelievable thing anyone has ever said to me, it's almost laughable.

 

> Rytlock could of taken five minutes to tell us what happened, whether he noticed what was up with Balthazar or not. We know he's putting things together by PoF, but we're already fighting a war god before he gets his head straight. I also was very careful with my wording, if we're being generous then Rytlock is vestigial. Useless to us because we can't trust him to tell us what we need to know, and at worst he's a threat because whenever he does something, wherever he goes, we don't know if he'll give us the whole story. What else could he omit from us? is it another thing that can result in thousands of deaths? something classified, or irrelevant, to him. But not to us. Why would he refuse to just TELL US SOMETHING just because of his guilt over Snaff, Eir, and the Edge? For months even?

 

That's not what vestigial means:

 

Adjective

1 forming a very small remnant of something that was once greater or more noticeable: he felt a vestigial flicker of anger from last night.

2 Biology (of an organ or part of the body) degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution: the vestigial wings of kiwis are entirely hidden.

 

That is what vestigial means.

 

And talking about this random dude who reignited his sword opens up the can of worms that surrounds his guilt around Snaff, Eir and Glint. That's the ENTIRE point. It's all connected. He didn't want to talk about his time in the mists, because it ultimately connects back to his guilt, and that includes this random spirit that reignited his sword. Your refusal to acknowledge the two are related really shows you don't want to deal with what's actually being presented.

 

> I don't think I need to tell you this, but I will anyway. What happens in the Mists spills out into the real world, gods are housed there, whenever the balance of power changes it had drastic consequences on our reality. I didn't miss it, I thought the reasoning was flawed, powerful beings in the mists influence our world constantly. Assuming that something, especially in a world where DEMONS exist, will just stay there is naive beyond belief. You're underestimating how drastically the world beyond the veil impacts our lives, in a universe that has had Hell itself try to spill into it.

 

The gods are a unique scenario, because they have a direct investment in the human population in Tyria. Everything that has ever happened with Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies was directly tied to humanity which, guess what, lives on Tyria. The rest of the mists isn't really involved in Tyria. How many times have demons affected our world, not including anything to do with Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies, or any other being with ties to humanity? And I'm genuinely asking here, because there's a vast difference between random demons intervening with Tyria and HUMAN GODS interfering in THE WORLD HUMANS LIVE IN.

 

Vastly different.

 

> And i'v already talked about this previously in this thread. Sure the gesture of loyalty is nice, but considering his actions immediately after i'm more then a little upset. Trust needs to be constant, as does loyalty, and ultimately his loyalty to either the Black Citadel or himself won out.

 

????????? He was forced to do so under threat of imprisonment, that's NOT loyalty to the Black Citadel. This is literally distorting the truth. I've quoted how untrue this is, using the dialogue that was part of season 3, episode 2. You ignoring a direct quote from the text of a living world segment that you can play is THE most truth distorting thing anyone can do.

 

> If anyone is distorting the reality of the discussion it's you.

 

This is so hilariously false, especially since I've presented evidence, but go on, tell me I'M the one distorting reality by citing evidence.

 

> I don't ignore the points, they simply don't resonate with me, none of them come of f as rational or understandable. I'v been presented with arguments that range from him believing it didn't matter, which just means he should spill it already, to him being crippled with guilt but apparently unwilling to share with his friends...friends who he feels guilty about failing...what was going on. If you want to critique Caithe and Logan for being traitors despite emotional baggage and mental alteration, then I can critique Rytlock for his explanation as coming off as both __hollow and vapid.__

 

This is so funny and shows a consistent failing at accepting when evidence is presented. Rytlock's time in the mists is ultimately tied with his guilt. Not only that, but something as trivial as a random spirit in the mists was freed by him will, ultimately, be less important than the thing that is creating the guilt in the first place. I didn't really think I'd need to delve into a little psychology, but here we go.

 

A source of trauma is always going to overpower seemingly unrelated or unimportant information, even if that information may turn out vital in the future. Rytlock's experience in the mists is one entire trip down emotional baggage lane, considering he directly confronted Glint's spirit in the mists, and now continuously carries an echo of Glint with him whereever he goes. Thus, the source of his trauma will take up the vast majority of what's going on with his mind, unless he takes up something active to do (killing mordremoth, helping the commander out with activities, possibly talking to Braham about Eir, possibly training the commander in the ways of the revenant). What that is going to do is push seemingly unimportant information (a random spirit that he freed that looked like every other spirit, according to Rytlock's dialogue from the cinematic, both quoted and linked to in the previous post) to the back of a person's mind, since it's not important enough to recognise over the traumas associated with losing three friends in the battles against the elder dragons.

 

As someone who deals with trauma and guilt, let me tell you from personal experience that this is the kind of stuff that happens. Unimportant information is tossed by the way side in favour of the guild/trauma that can overwhelm your mind. You don't have to be part of the military to experience guilt or trauma so overwhelming that it can screw with your thinking process.

 

> I don't need to ignore facts to believe Rytlocks a traitor.

 

Except you literally are ignoring facts, quoted facts, not only from the wiki but from the cinematic itself.

 

> He put something, either himself or the Citadel, above telling one of the most important people in the world a vital piece of information. The only other way to construe it is Rytlock is just a plain old idiot, pick one.

 

And again, ignoring quoted information from within the game that literally says otherwise.

 

I'm done. You're free to ignore the reality of the situation, distort the truth to suit your own head canon and call Rytlock a traitor. But the facts ultimately work against you, I've literally quoted the facts to you and you've ignored them in favour of your own narrative. So I'm done.

[Loesh.4697]

 

 

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I'm doing neither. I hear what you're saying, and what you're saying doesn't resonate with me. It's invalid, morally repugnant even.

>

> Morally repugnant? What? This is the most unbelievable thing anyone has ever said to me, it's almost laughable.

>

I don't really have another way to describe it. I find what Rytlock did morally reprehensible, ditto trying to justify it under guilt and irrelevance. Thousands of people died, it's such an almost childish reasoning for doing what he did, that I find it just plain wrong.

 

> > Rytlock could of taken five minutes to tell us what happened, whether he noticed what was up with Balthazar or not. We know he's putting things together by PoF, but we're already fighting a war god before he gets his head straight. I also was very careful with my wording, if we're being generous then Rytlock is vestigial. Useless to us because we can't trust him to tell us what we need to know, and at worst he's a threat because whenever he does something, wherever he goes, we don't know if he'll give us the whole story. What else could he omit from us? is it another thing that can result in thousands of deaths? something classified, or irrelevant, to him. But not to us. Why would he refuse to just TELL US SOMETHING just because of his guilt over Snaff, Eir, and the Edge? For months even?

>

> That's not what vestigial means:

>

> Adjective

> 1 forming a very small remnant of something that was once greater or more noticeable: he felt a vestigial flicker of anger from last night.

> 2 Biology (of an organ or part of the body) degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution: the vestigial wings of kiwis are entirely hidden.

>

> That is what vestigial means.

>

> And talking about this random dude who reignited his sword opens up the can of worms that surrounds his guilt around Snaff, Eir and Glint. That's the ENTIRE point. It's all connected. He didn't want to talk about his time in the mists, because it ultimately connects back to his guilt, and that includes this random spirit that reignited his sword. Your refusal to acknowledge the two are related really shows you don't want to deal with what's actually being presented.

>

 

Look at number two, i'm literally saying Rytlock is a vestigial organ, this shouldn't be hard to comprehend. As for his guilt? I just plain *don't* buy it, being so crushed by grief over something that yes is tangentially related, but distant, to not tell us for MONTHS what is happening. Again if we can blame Caithe and Logan, we can blame Rytlock, he was under less duress if anything and his race is supposedly training him to be resistant to such strain. At the very best it makes him an idiot and a hypocrite for slagging off Logan when he let his emotions so freely control him.

 

> > I don't think I need to tell you this, but I will anyway. What happens in the Mists spills out into the real world, gods are housed there, whenever the balance of power changes it had drastic consequences on our reality. I didn't miss it, I thought the reasoning was flawed, powerful beings in the mists influence our world constantly. Assuming that something, especially in a world where DEMONS exist, will just stay there is naive beyond belief. You're underestimating how drastically the world beyond the veil impacts our lives, in a universe that has had Hell itself try to spill into it.

>

> The gods are a unique scenario, because they have a direct investment in the human population in Tyria. Everything that has ever happened with Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies was directly tied to humanity which, guess what, lives on Tyria. The rest of the mists isn't really involved in Tyria. How many times have demons affected our world, not including anything to do with Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies, or any other being with ties to humanity? And I'm genuinely asking here, because there's a vast difference between random demons intervening with Tyria and HUMAN GODS interfering in THE WORLD HUMANS LIVE IN.

>

 

Demons breaching into our world isn't exactly a rare occurrence, and they exist for no other reason then to feed on the pain and torment of the living. They're raw beings of etheric matter, it's what they do. Asking 'how many times have they affected our world?' is silly, because ALL THEY DO is affect our world and look for ways to reach us. Whether they are a small collection of flame imps, or the giant shadow beast exploiting a breach in Godlost swamp. They impact and consequences can be dire for mortals ranging from a handful of people to entire settlements.

 

> Vastly different.

>

> > And i'v already talked about this previously in this thread. Sure the gesture of loyalty is nice, but considering his actions immediately after i'm more then a little upset. Trust needs to be constant, as does loyalty, and ultimately his loyalty to either the Black Citadel or himself won out.

>

> ????????? He was forced to do so under threat of imprisonment, that's NOT loyalty to the Black Citadel. This is literally distorting the truth. I've quoted how untrue this is, using the dialogue that was part of season 3, episode 2. You ignoring a direct quote from the text of a living world segment that you can play is THE most truth distorting thing anyone can do.

>

 

Okay, allow me to restructure my argument then. Instead of loyalty to the Citadel, he did it out of fear, still morally reprehensible, but less so. To be candid this one I actually did miss because, to be frank, you're just plain exhausting to talk to you.

 

> > If anyone is distorting the reality of the discussion it's you.

>

> This is so hilariously false, especially since I've presented evidence, but go on, tell me I'M the one distorting reality by citing evidence.

>

 

You're the one distorting reality by citing 'evidence'.

 

> > I don't ignore the points, they simply don't resonate with me, none of them come of f as rational or understandable. I'v been presented with arguments that range from him believing it didn't matter, which just means he should spill it already, to him being crippled with guilt but apparently unwilling to share with his friends...friends who he feels guilty about failing...what was going on. If you want to critique Caithe and Logan for being traitors despite emotional baggage and mental alteration, then I can critique Rytlock for his explanation as coming off as both __hollow and vapid.__

>

> This is so funny and shows a consistent failing at accepting when evidence is presented. Rytlock's time in the mists is ultimately tied with his guilt. Not only that, but something as trivial as a random spirit in the mists was freed by him will, ultimately, be less important than the thing that is creating the guilt in the first place. I didn't really think I'd need to delve into a little psychology, but here we go.

>

> A source of trauma is always going to overpower seemingly unrelated or unimportant information, even if that information may turn out vital in the future. Rytlock's experience in the mists is one entire trip down emotional baggage lane, considering he directly confronted Glint's spirit in the mists, and now continuously carries an echo of Glint with him whereever he goes. Thus, the source of his trauma will take up the vast majority of what's going on with his mind, unless he takes up something active to do (killing mordremoth, helping the commander out with activities, possibly talking to Braham about Eir, possibly training the commander in the ways of the revenant). What that is going to do is push seemingly unimportant information (a random spirit that he freed that looked like every other spirit, according to Rytlock's dialogue from the cinematic, both quoted and linked to in the previous post) to the back of a person's mind, since it's not important enough to recognise over the traumas associated with losing three friends in the battles against the elder dragons.

>

> As someone who deals with trauma and guilt, let me tell you from personal experience that this is the kind of stuff that happens. Unimportant information is tossed by the way side in favour of the guild/trauma that can overwhelm your mind. You don't have to be part of the military to experience guilt or trauma so overwhelming that it can screw with your thinking process.

>

 

I acknowledge what you said, I just think the reasoning is again, morally reprehensible. I understand why you think like that, I disagree because of points that, hilariously enough you ignored. I explained why he wasn't trivial, why Rytlock should know this isn't trivial, and his psychological reasoning for not telling us is just plain stupid in my eyes. I accept the evidence, not the conclusion. We asked about the information specifically, he chose not to tell us. No amount of guilt overwhelms the simple fact he was directly asked and he didn't give it to us. We were even patient, we gave him days, weeks, again months, we waited past the unveiling of a god. Not a letter, not a peep, at some point guilt ceases to be a valid excuse. You have to accept personal responsibility, personal autonomy, at a point it's not guilt. It's Rytlock, and not calling him out on it would be absurdly irrational after we heaped so much blame on someone like Caiithe who need I remind people is under emotional duress.

 

> > I don't need to ignore facts to believe Rytlocks a traitor.

>

> Except you literally are ignoring facts, quoted facts, not only from the wiki but from the cinematic itself.

>

 

Except I read them, understood them, and just plain don't agree.

 

> > He put something, either himself or the Citadel, above telling one of the most important people in the world a vital piece of information. The only other way to construe it is Rytlock is just a plain old idiot, pick one.

>

> And again, ignoring quoted information from within the game that literally says otherwise.

 

Replace 'Black Citadel' with 'Fear of the Black Citadel', though Rytlock never seemed like a particularly frightened person. Perhaps a little terror let him understand how Logan felt, eh?

 

>

> I'm done. You're free to ignore the reality of the situation, distort the truth to suit your own head canon and call Rytlock a traitor. But the facts ultimately work against you, I've literally quoted the facts to you and you've ignored them in favour of your own narrative. So I'm done.

 

Well i'm sorry to see you go. At the same time it's hard to remain cordial when you're accusing me of distorting facts. Especially while just plain ignoring what i'm saying, but it is what it is.

 

I'm tired.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Technically, the fractals are _initially_ events that have already happened. When we enter, we're effectively "altering history" as there were no five intrepid adventurers killing everything hostile originally. But of course we're not actually changing history, since the fractals are merely _copies_ of a specific time and place (or a specific mixture of times and places).

>

> Are these copies self contained? Like, does the copy only begin exist so long as we enter and then it ceases to exist after we exit? Or are we technically altering a different time line?

 

Fractals exist without us, but they reset over a period of time (hence why we have to go in and clear it again; the purpose of clearing it is to allow Dessa's krewe time to enter and study them; of course, Dessa herself and her krewe are part of a Fractal, the original being MIA).

 

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > Caithe chose to steal the egg. Rytlock was an unwitting dupe; his only failing was that he didn't tell anyone. His comeuppance? He has to pal around with the likes of Canach & the Commander, while watching Logan "Runaway" Thackeray become the Leader of the Pact.

> >

> > Rytlock chose to free the strange figure chained up in the Mists after being promised what he wanted.

> >

> > Caithe chose to steal the egg while her head was being bombarded with whispers by Mordremoth disguised as her own thoughts, all telling her not to trust her friends.

> >

> > Rytlock should have been damned suspicious of a _locked up person_. People don't get locked up without a reason - they either pissed off a powerful villain, or they are the villain. Caithe at least has the excuse of being mentally mindfucked.

>

> Rytlock, like most Charr, is a soldier who thinks mostly in straight lines. Subtleties and subtext aren't his forte. In his mind, he had a mission, which was to get Sohothin back. He did that. He just didn't understand the consequences it would have. Sort of like calling in an airstrike in Iraq only to find out the bad guys were using civilians as human shields. Good intentions, but the unforeseen collateral damage is a literal killer...

 

Rytlock is above all else, not like most charr. He spent years studying Ascalonian and Orrian history (he mentions this in both the charr PS and in S2) to solve the Foefire problem, where "most charr" go towards either technology or "we'll just keep fighting them until they give up" mentality.

 

And while he is Blood Legion and thus more prone to direct assaults, he shows in the Ash legion storyline that he is fully capable of comprehending subtleties and subtexts and he showed in Edge of Destiny novel he is not above subterfuge (no doubt due to the time spent with Logan and Caithe).

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > Thing is... I don't think it would've prevented _anything._

> >

> > Let's say Rytlock _did_ come clean to the Commander. Then let's say that they put their heads together and developed a suspicion that this stranger capable of relighting Sohothin was Balthazar. Let's even suspend disbelief and say that they were then able to pick up Balthazar's trail, despite Balthazar having a mirror that'd let him appear to be virtually anything and anyone, and the Commander needing to deal with a dragon subverting an entire race of allies and a bloodstone exploding and a civil war in another race of allies and two more dragons suddenly showing a surge of activity, all on top of personal concerns that all this magic exposure might be driving them insane... let's set all that aside and say that the Commander located Balthazar, and trailed him long enough to deduce that he was out to kill the dragons.

> >

> > The Commander probably would've walked up and said 'Oh, thank the Six- I mean, you- this will be so much easier with a god on board.'

> >

> > Remember, we didn't stop wanting the same thing as Balthazar until after we'd figured out everything anyway. That machine Balthazar almost used to destroy the world? We had it developed _specifically to do that,_ if anything in a more destructive way, since we wouldn't have been able to jack in and absorb some of the power that we would otherwise have unleashed. Knowing Balthazar's identity would only have made things worse, since we'd be more inclined to trust a historical ally than a historical enemy like Lazarus. What if we had told him about the machine early? The only reason Taimi went back to check her work and discover that killing dragons was apocalyptic was because she had misgivings about the way Balthazar seized the machine by force. If we had approached him, put him in a position where he didn't have to resort to that, there's every possibility that Tyria would be gone before we even knew it was at risk.

> >

> > I honestly think Rytlock's silence, irritating as it was, may have inadvertently saved the world.

>

> I think the reason that doesn't work for me, is that the moment we realized it was Balthazar we would of had a very important question: Why, precisely. were you locked up and who could even do that?

>

> I called this early in the last living world Season, Balthazar was imprisoned by the gods. Nobody, NOBODY save them has the power to strip a divine being of power and lock them into the Mists. Anyone even remotely familiar with the day the night fell would immediately recognize that, for some reason, Balthazar had been banished. Which would of then immediately led into the question "Why did the Gods NOT want us to kill the Dragons?" at which point, I think we would of at the very least seriously reconsidered what we were about to do with Primordius and Jormagg.

 

I think that'd still be quite a leap of logic- for example, while many players did guess that Balthazar was turned on by the other gods, just as many thought that he'd been beaten by Menzies, and others thought that something had happened to _all_ of the gods- but let's say, once again, it all went down like that. The Commander jumps to being suspicious of Balthazar, and then Balthazar is unable to blow us off or spin a yarn that our character would accept. Being evasive deepens our suspicions, and we resolve to act against him on the principle that anyone powerful being shifty with us needs to be stopped. (Sorry, Anise, but you probably have it coming.)

 

Then what?

 

The basis of your argument is that the deaths at the hands of Balthazar's Forged were ultimately preventable. By handwaving two major plot hiccups, we're now up to the point where Rytlock and the Commander recognize Balthazar as a threat and are committed to stopping him. So how do they stop an entity that can create portals with a wave of his hand when things aren't going his way, possesses an artifact that creates foolproof disguises, and has a ready base of loyal followers who'll rally to his name? Or, if surmounting the plot hiccups delayed us until the bloodstone exploded, how do we stop an entity who can do all of that, and also burn dozens of people at once with a wave of his other hand?

 

How could we have prevented those deaths?