Bring Back No Downstate!

[BlueMelody.6398]

As long as there exist one-shot-kill-from-stealth builds, I will oppose no downstate 100%.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > I think the very least they could do is put it back in until alliances are released then reassess then if it's really necessary

> >

> > All the encounters go 1 of 3 ways now:

> >

> > - Zergs clash evenly, one gets run over completely, refuses to re-engage until they have far superior numbers

> > _superior numbers still get beat because many players still die on inc who rely on no DS, becomes a war of attrition, which skill will always win_

> > - zergs avoid each other and pirate ship with no outcome

> > _goes without saying, players still die during pirate shipping continually so at least there is an outcome_

> > - Players hide in towers and refuse to come out

> > _Treb them until their bigger group comes, then subsequently pirate ship them down, or break their walls down and take out tower campers, again there is an outcome_

> >

> >

> > Gank squads will be more prominent, so follow your group out of spawn. Otherwise learn to not die during a battle forcing you to run back. Don't over-extend (like so many people do and get picked off). Learn to position yourself properly, not just go running in blindly hitting 1.

> >

> > The days I was able to participate in no DS week, the bigger groups never won, winning being you lost less than your opponents. The bigger groups always lost more and always had to retreat. This is exactly why no DS needs to come back and remain permanent. In doing so, I wouldn't mind if they kicked AC's to the curb.

>

> YASSS...this guy and/or girl gets it. No DS stops zergs from holding their hands to victory and actually makes them engage the way groups were meant to, which means they actually need skill/strats to win, like in a real fight. No DS weeded out the good groups/players from the bad ones and put a spot light on them.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Rangers, Dragon Hunters, and Thieves have traps, yes. Chronos and Necros also have wells and marks. I didn't say there were several CLASSES, I said SKILLS that can be placed upon a downed enemy that can help take out some of the larger group as they try to get the Downed up. Not trying to deny what you saw or experienced, but you also cannot deny mine as well. Just because you didn't see the smaller group able to get their downed up in time to help fend of a zerg doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have seen it happen. And as far as people wanting to fight skilled people, yeah that's a small percentage. Most people want to steamroll over their opponents and get the easy loot bags. It makes them feel better for some reason to be able to 10v1 or 50v5. If people truly want to fight skilled then they will go to PvP, not WvW. WvW is just a numbers game or people ganking people from stealth.

 

I Actually didnt deny your as I openly admitted I cant speak for you as I can only speak for myself in a t2/3 server. As for the "traps" that was my bad as I interpreted your "traps" as legit trap abilities (thief/dh/ranger traps), as opposed to triggerable damage.

 

While WvW is a numbers game, it cannot be denied that even 1 or 2 is a number and can still contribute despite wanting to PPT or PPK (as PPK also contributes points as well to the score). PvP offers a controlled environment with many stat and build restrictions where WvW is more open, so the better fights tend to be in WvW due to massive terrain and build freedom, thus making it perfectly acceptable to want fights in WvW (for those who enjoy it). If a smaller group can out perform a bigger one, then thats an issue with the bigger group..Also contributes a good amount of points to score

[Shagaliscious.6281]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> Reminds me of the ac thread where people say if you are outnumbered then you deserve to lose XD, sounds like we are on familiar ground.

 

Those of us that believe that, are completely fine with it being both ways. If I make a call out and no one shows up, then fuck it, I ain't defending a structure if no one is willing to help me. Besides, you aren't gonna defend every structure all day long, not even the largest servers can accomplish that.

[Musty.3148]

I'd also LOVE to see DS disappear. It's a crutch plain and simple. If I die, because I was Out of position, or pushed too hard, or forgot to hit my oh, kitten button at the right time. I deserve the "run back of shame".

 

 

[DeWolfe.2174]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> As long as there exist one-shot-kill-from-stealth builds, I will oppose no downstate 100%.

 

So you're on board with no downstate as long as Thieves and Mesmers burst are nerfed a bit?

We could do that!

 

... now .... where's Karl....??? KARL!!!

:)

[DeWolfe.2174]

> @"Musty.3148" said:

> I'd also LOVE to see DS disappear. It's a crutch plain and simple. If I die, because I was Out of position, or pushed too hard, or forgot to hit my oh, kitten button at the right time. I deserve the "run back of shame".

>

>

 

I just had a visual that when we die, we turn to ghost like in Mad Kings "Lunatic Inquisition".

Maybe that could be a WvW event for a skirmish or two somehow?

That when you die you randomly swap to a side?

It would be mayhem :)

[Musty.3148]

> @"DeWolfe.2174" said:

> > @"Musty.3148" said:

> > I'd also LOVE to see DS disappear. It's a crutch plain and simple. If I die, because I was Out of position, or pushed too hard, or forgot to hit my oh, kitten button at the right time. I deserve the "run back of shame".

> >

> >

>

> I just had a visual that when we die, we turn to ghost like in Mad Kings "Lunatic Inquisition".

> Maybe that could be a WvW event for a skirmish or two somehow?

> That when you die you randomly swap to a side?

> It would be mayhem :)

 

did you ever play Ultima Online? You got killed you turned into a ghost in that. LOL.

 

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

unnerf meteor shower and bring back no down state.

 

 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> unnerf meteor shower and bring back no down state.

>

>

 

Why? Meteor shower was busted and everyone knew it.

[Delweyn.1309]

No donwstate but a buff of pv by +20 or 30 %

[Victory.2879]

Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

Give eles a decent health pool.

The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Victory.2879" said:

> Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

> Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

> Give eles a decent health pool.

> The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

 

Downstate would still be needed to weed out the bad players/groups who rely on numbers instead of skill. Thats what made no DS popular. People couldn't necessarily hide behind numbers. It also adds a bit of excitement due to the "kill or be killed without the chance of getting back up" aspect, which highlights skillful play and strategies.

[BlueMelody.6398]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Victory.2879" said:

> > Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

> > Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

> > Give eles a decent health pool.

> > The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

>

> Downstate would still be needed to weed out the bad players/groups who rely on numbers instead of skill. Thats what made no DS popular. People couldn't necessarily hide behind numbers. It also adds a bit of excitement due to the "kill or be killed without the chance of getting back up" aspect, which highlights skillful play and strategies.

 

The fact that you're talking about "weeding out bad players" is one of the primary reasons DS needs to stay. This is a highly elitist statement, a bully statement in fact ("show me the weaklings so I can kill them and make them go away"). DS is what makes GW2 fairly unique and it's part of what enables it to be playable for casuals, which many other MMOs are not. You want to "weed out" the casuals, go play an esports game with no DS. Let those of us who can't play those other games have this one bone.

 

Aside from my objection to one-shot-kills (which means people die with no chance to react and not because they deserved to), I object to no DS because I don't want the only popular MMO playable by casuals to disappear when the rest of you have many other options if you don't want to be bothered by the existence of casuals around.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Victory.2879" said:

> > > Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

> > > Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

> > > Give eles a decent health pool.

> > > The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

> >

> > Downstate would still be needed to weed out the bad players/groups who rely on numbers instead of skill. Thats what made no DS popular. People couldn't necessarily hide behind numbers. It also adds a bit of excitement due to the "kill or be killed without the chance of getting back up" aspect, which highlights skillful play and strategies.

>

> The fact that you're talking about "weeding out bad players" is one of the primary reasons DS needs to stay. This is a highly elitist statement, a bully statement in fact ("show me the weaklings so I can kill them and make them go away"). DS is what makes GW2 fairly unique and it's part of what enables it to be playable for casuals, which many other MMOs are not. You want to "weed out" the casuals, go play an esports game with no DS. Let those of us who can't play those other games have this one bone.

>

> Aside from my objection to one-shot-kills (which means people die with no chance to react and not because they deserved to), I object to no DS because I don't want the only popular MMO playable by casuals to disappear when the rest of you have many other options if you don't want to be bothered by the existence of casuals around.

 

I apologize if it sounds elitist as it was not my intention (as anyone who even runs with me once, or watches my streams know im far from elitist). It was meant to be interpreted as it shows who is carried by their builds or numbers rather than skill (aka bad players) to the point they learn to adapt and overcome by learning, gaining and utilizing said skill (for personal player development purposes). This is a good purpose of no DS...better quality of player skill in WvW, whether it be skill of fights or skill of strategies.

[BlueMelody.6398]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > @"Victory.2879" said:

> > > > Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

> > > > Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

> > > > Give eles a decent health pool.

> > > > The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

> > >

> > > Downstate would still be needed to weed out the bad players/groups who rely on numbers instead of skill. Thats what made no DS popular. People couldn't necessarily hide behind numbers. It also adds a bit of excitement due to the "kill or be killed without the chance of getting back up" aspect, which highlights skillful play and strategies.

> >

> > The fact that you're talking about "weeding out bad players" is one of the primary reasons DS needs to stay. This is a highly elitist statement, a bully statement in fact ("show me the weaklings so I can kill them and make them go away"). DS is what makes GW2 fairly unique and it's part of what enables it to be playable for casuals, which many other MMOs are not. You want to "weed out" the casuals, go play an esports game with no DS. Let those of us who can't play those other games have this one bone.

> >

> > Aside from my objection to one-shot-kills (which means people die with no chance to react and not because they deserved to), I object to no DS because I don't want the only popular MMO playable by casuals to disappear when the rest of you have many other options if you don't want to be bothered by the existence of casuals around.

>

> I apologize if it sounds elitist as it was not my intention (as anyone who even runs with me once, or watches my streams know im far from elitist). It was meant to be interpreted as it shows who is carried by their builds or numbers rather than skill (aka bad players) to the point they learn to adapt and overcome by learning, gaining and utilizing said skill (for personal player development purposes). This is a good purpose of no DS...better quality of player skill in WvW, whether it be skill of fights or skill of strategies.

 

Then your error is in thinking that no DS is actually going to make people improve who would NOT improve without no DS, which is simply wrong. People who want to improve will do so with or without no DS; those who are just there for fun and not wanting to spend excess time honing/grinding aren't suddenly going to improve as a result of no-DS; they'll just stop playing because frequently running back from spawn is zero fun (esp when you sometimes get sniped by a stealthed party on the way and have to do it all over again).

 

tl;dr: No one is going to "improve" as a result of no-DS who wouldn't have improved anyway without it. If part of your mindset is based on improvement, you will; if it's not, you won't.

[Victory.2879]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Victory.2879" said:

> > Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

> > Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

> > Give eles a decent health pool.

> > The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

>

> Downstate would still be needed to weed out the bad players/groups who rely on numbers instead of skill. Thats what made no DS popular. People couldn't necessarily hide behind numbers. It also adds a bit of excitement due to the "kill or be killed without the chance of getting back up" aspect, which highlights skillful play and strategies.

 

Actually it highlights builds that can survive a spike and those that can't , and encourages snipe teams of stealthed insta gibs near spawn points - who rely on broken mechanics and numbers rather than skill.

 

It also encourages more hiding in towers, backing off in fights, milling around rather than engaging.

 

It's bad enough with pugs watching them run away rather than get their pixels hurt- it's a lot worse when they might not get up, they turn and run even faster.

 

Best strategy for no downed state is a few well placed ballistas, or instantly built ones on the field. that's skillful play and strategy all in one - your carefully crafted guild blob gets decimated and off you go back to spawn:-)

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > > @"Victory.2879" said:

> > > > > Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

> > > > > Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

> > > > > Give eles a decent health pool.

> > > > > The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

> > > >

> > > > Downstate would still be needed to weed out the bad players/groups who rely on numbers instead of skill. Thats what made no DS popular. People couldn't necessarily hide behind numbers. It also adds a bit of excitement due to the "kill or be killed without the chance of getting back up" aspect, which highlights skillful play and strategies.

> > >

> > > The fact that you're talking about "weeding out bad players" is one of the primary reasons DS needs to stay. This is a highly elitist statement, a bully statement in fact ("show me the weaklings so I can kill them and make them go away"). DS is what makes GW2 fairly unique and it's part of what enables it to be playable for casuals, which many other MMOs are not. You want to "weed out" the casuals, go play an esports game with no DS. Let those of us who can't play those other games have this one bone.

> > >

> > > Aside from my objection to one-shot-kills (which means people die with no chance to react and not because they deserved to), I object to no DS because I don't want the only popular MMO playable by casuals to disappear when the rest of you have many other options if you don't want to be bothered by the existence of casuals around.

> >

> > I apologize if it sounds elitist as it was not my intention (as anyone who even runs with me once, or watches my streams know im far from elitist). It was meant to be interpreted as it shows who is carried by their builds or numbers rather than skill (aka bad players) to the point they learn to adapt and overcome by learning, gaining and utilizing said skill (for personal player development purposes). This is a good purpose of no DS...better quality of player skill in WvW, whether it be skill of fights or skill of strategies.

>

> Then your error is in thinking that no DS is actually going to make people improve who would NOT improve without no DS, which is simply wrong. People who want to improve will do so with or without no DS; those who are just there for fun and not wanting to spend excess time honing/grinding aren't suddenly going to improve as a result of no-DS; they'll just stop playing because frequently running back from spawn is zero fun (esp when you sometimes get sniped by a stealthed party on the way and have to do it all over again).

>

> tl;dr: No one is going to "improve" as a result of no-DS who wouldn't have improved anyway without it. If part of your mindset is based on improvement, you will; if it's not, you won't.

 

With the added threat of (once you are down, you stay down), it def can help people learn to play better. DS makes a lot of people have the mindset of (pfft, ill just get ressed by someone and ill get back in the fight), creating less urgency and idgaf attitude, whereas with no DS it forces them to actually play like it matters as no one wants to keep running back. It helps by forcing a lot of people to learn to get better. It appears we are going to have to agree to disagree in methodology as while its true there are multiple ways of achieving skill, no DS puts a bit of rush on it.

 

Edit: I am not denying that no DS has its downsides such as gankers, stalemate fights (however i believe this is due to lack of proper strategies as I have assisted a zvz standoff during the last no DS week with 1 simple portal, setting up a portal bomb) and increased use of siege (which also boils down to strategy imo, placement of counter siege) and the task of running back into the fight from closest WP (which can be a pain sometimes), however i believe if the quality of players skill and group strategy can improve in WvW, then I know a ton of people that are for no DS as well as no DS can push it along.

[archmagus.7249]

As a roamer I hated the no downstate event. It made outnumbered fights nearly impossible.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> As a roamer I hated the no downstate event. It made outnumbered fights nearly impossible.

 

Everyone had a different experience as a solo roamer. I had great success myself as did the rest of my guild and one of my other guilds (who mainly solo roam/small scale). Both guilds T2/T3 servers so I cannot speak for other tiers or regions

 

From when the event was over, according to the forums and reddit, you are part of a minority (woo go you :) ) however its possible the ones who loved it were the real minority, but they were louder so I guess we will truly never know. Be cool if Anet did a poll on forums and reddit to confirm who is the majority.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > As a roamer I hated the no downstate event. It made outnumbered fights nearly impossible.

>

> Everyone had a different experience as a solo roamer. I had great success myself as did the rest of my guild and one of my other guilds (who mainly solo roam/small scale). Both guilds T2/T3 servers so I cannot speak for other tiers or regions

>

> From when the event was over, according to the forums and reddit, you are part of a minority (woo go you :) ) however its possible the ones who loved it were the real minority, but they were louder so I guess we will truly never know. Be cool if Anet did a poll on forums and reddit to confirm who is the majority.

 

IMO a middle grounds needs to be achieved, between no downed state and downed, maybe change the rules how it happens and change how getting players back works?

 

For example, downed players can only be back up trough revive skills, or players traited for that, with the skills players would have to add them on the utilities replacing some other utilitie, after that no more hard revive, OR also could be possible make it work by reviving a fully dead player but making caster using the revival skill rooted and skill would take 2x to be casted or easilly interrupted.

 

Killing targets of your downed ally would not make player get back up to the fight.

This would work like a hybrid version of gw1 and gw2 revival mechanics, and add more risk and awareness requirement on getting players back to the battle :\

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > As a roamer I hated the no downstate event. It made outnumbered fights nearly impossible.

> >

> > Everyone had a different experience as a solo roamer. I had great success myself as did the rest of my guild and one of my other guilds (who mainly solo roam/small scale). Both guilds T2/T3 servers so I cannot speak for other tiers or regions

> >

> > From when the event was over, according to the forums and reddit, you are part of a minority (woo go you :) ) however its possible the ones who loved it were the real minority, but they were louder so I guess we will truly never know. Be cool if Anet did a poll on forums and reddit to confirm who is the majority.

>

> IMO a middle grounds needs to be achieved, between no downed state and downed, maybe change the rules how it happens and change how getting players back works?

>

> For example, downed players can only be back up trough revive skills, or players traited for that, with the skills players would have to add them on the utilities replacing some other utilitie, after that no more hard revive, OR also could be possible make it work by reviving a fully dead player but making caster using the revival skill rooted and skill would take 2x to be casted or easilly interrupted.

>

> Killing targets of your downed ally would not make player get back up to the fight.

> This would work like a hybrid version of gw1 and gw2 revival mechanics, and add more risk and awareness requirement on getting players back u the battle :\

 

That wouldnt be too bad. Gives some skills/traits an even more valuable use. Maybe when rez'ed that way, treat it like a revive orb and obtain Sickness for x seconds.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > As a roamer I hated the no downstate event. It made outnumbered fights nearly impossible.

> > >

> > > Everyone had a different experience as a solo roamer. I had great success myself as did the rest of my guild and one of my other guilds (who mainly solo roam/small scale). Both guilds T2/T3 servers so I cannot speak for other tiers or regions

> > >

> > > From when the event was over, according to the forums and reddit, you are part of a minority (woo go you :) ) however its possible the ones who loved it were the real minority, but they were louder so I guess we will truly never know. Be cool if Anet did a poll on forums and reddit to confirm who is the majority.

> >

> > IMO a middle grounds needs to be achieved, between no downed state and downed, maybe change the rules how it happens and change how getting players back works?

> >

> > For example, downed players can only be back up trough revive skills, or players traited for that, with the skills players would have to add them on the utilities replacing some other utilitie, after that no more hard revive, OR also could be possible make it work by reviving a fully dead player but making caster using the revival skill rooted and skill would take 2x to be casted or easilly interrupted.

> >

> > Killing targets of your downed ally would not make player get back up to the fight.

> > This would work like a hybrid version of gw1 and gw2 revival mechanics, and add more risk and awareness requirement on getting players back u the battle :\

>

> That wouldnt be too bad. Gives some skills/traits an even more valuable use. Maybe when rez'ed that way, treat it like a revive orb and obtain Sickness for x seconds.

 

Sickness has in a Morale penalty when for the next X sec player had less armor and health?

 

Meanwhile i posted here some reviving skills ideas from the useless racial skills.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49765/suggestion-new-and-improved-racial-skills#latest

[babazhook.6805]

The least they can do is get rid off rallying off veteran guards.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Victory.2879" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Victory.2879" said:

> > > Bring back no downstate, but remove stealth (or make it 'stealthy') and rework about half of all skills so that it is no longer possible to instantly stunlock/down a player. Maybe restrict damage to a maximum per hit.

> > > Introduce a delay between skills going off so certain classes can't instantly fire off 6 skills - even a 1/4 second would be enough.

> > > Give eles a decent health pool.

> > > The game doesn't work very well without down state as it's not very well balanced. Balance the game then down state wouldn't be needed.

> >

> > Downstate would still be needed to weed out the bad players/groups who rely on numbers instead of skill. Thats what made no DS popular. People couldn't necessarily hide behind numbers. It also adds a bit of excitement due to the "kill or be killed without the chance of getting back up" aspect, which highlights skillful play and strategies.

>

> Actually it highlights builds that can survive a spike and those that can't , and encourages snipe teams of stealthed insta gibs near spawn points - who rely on broken mechanics and numbers rather than skill.

 

Gank squads are literally doing that now with no downstate, and the blobs that were relying on stacking broken classes (like they did scourge) and numbers to win weren't showing "skill".

>

> It also encourages more hiding in towers, backing off in fights, milling around rather than engaging.

 

Half the arrow cart thread says that is all people are doing anyway.

>

> It's bad enough with pugs watching them run away rather than get their pixels hurt- it's a lot worse when they might not get up, they turn and run even faster.

 

Runners are going to run no matter what. I am never in the zerg squad, but do respond when the tag calls for bodies. When the 20 of us get jumped by 65 coming over the south gate in smc, you know what I do, I either die gloriously in the fray or go straight to QL because I already know we have lost and at least I will be inside to use tactics if the blob hasn't already trolled them until we can regroup or just watch it flip to the bandwagoning blob.

 

>

> Best strategy for no downed state is a few well placed ballistas, or instantly built ones on the field. that's skillful play and strategy all in one - your carefully crafted guild blob gets decimated and off you go back to spawn:-)

 

This works now with no downstate, and using the tools in the game to creatively win a fight is not a negative. That's like saying that "fight guilds" who bomb a choke point were cheating because they used the terrain (a tool available in game) to their advantage. I can't even count on my hands and feet the number of times I've seen "only looking for fights" groups drop siege just about everywhere to guarantee their win.