Is it time to finally remove the gems (RL money) --> gold conversion?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I wrote something similar in a raid selling thread some time ago:

 

some people have the time to hone their skills, farm gold and do tons of achievements.

other people don't have the time. But they have time to earn real life money.

 

What matters is real time was spent. How it was spent does not matter as much.

 

Also, ANET needs to make money. Running servers, even rented from amazon, costs real money. Paying devs costs real money. Paying artists, forum mods and twitter people costs real money.

 

ANET does not ask for a monthly fee, ANET does not force you to buy some expensive stuff to stay competitive. But ANET allows you to spend money on cosmetic items that have 0 impact on gameplay.

 

And I am very, very fine with that.

[Magek.4718]

Listen, I don't have a million hours to play the game and legendaries are hella expensive.

 

I really like having the option to throw some extra money at my legendary fund.

[Ashabhi.1365]

For what it's worth:

 

1. There is a group of players out there (including me) who get the majority of their gems trough in-game gold. This means that we play the game, use the gold to convert to gems to buy stuff in the shop. WIthout the gold-to-gems and vice versa, we would not be able to do that.

2. This is a system that works. The need for people to go to 3rd party gold sellers is simply not there. A bit of a discount for gems isn't worth the risk of losing all your stuff to a scammer.

3. Most ascended mats that I know of are account bound on acquire. Nobody is buying ascended parts. Exotic T6 mats are an entirely different story. Those are able to be bought and sold (and I've made a pretty penny on farming them and selling.) Here's the problem with your statement: Nobody has to buy them. Anyone can gather/farm those mats, or buy them with laurels (log in rewards.)

 

From what I am reading in the OP's post,it sounds more like she/he is upset that they can't afford more gems to convert to gold so they can buy mats. My only piece of advice would be to play the game. If done right, you can make nice coinage just playing.

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > 1) Gold sellers already sell gold at a much cheaper price on 3rd party website incase if you're unaware so it's not uncommon at all.

> Apparently you're actually unaware that the goal isn't to _eliminate_ illicit goal. It's to reduce the incentive for people to do it.

 

Then that's a futile attempt. Gold selling services is something that will never leave the MMO industry and that doesn't mean the company should sell it instead at a higher price. This is basically what RMT is instead that this is legal but gamebreaking to many since gold is the primary currency in gw2 and used for basically everything. It's basically trade of "reducing gold selling activity via 3rd party" (although I haven't seen any data supporting it) to getting BiS stuffs with money and devaluing ingame rewards/goals.

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > This doesn't give Anet the excuse to sell gold (and the rewards bought with gold) directly for real life cash.

> It's not "an excuse." It's a business decision to prevent something worse than "devaluing their own in-game rewards": people losing their accounts to fraud & theft, to reduce the amount of losses due to people buying illicit gold and then leaving the game. (The two are linked.)

>

 

People losing their accounts to thefts and frauds are because of their own actions/decisions of buying gold through 3rd party websites, not due to the game or the company. It is a bannable offense if caught and rightfully so. The fact that these gold sellers offer a cheaper service is an incentive enough for people who were gonna use RMT from them.

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Because Anet is devaluing their own ingame rewards by allowing rich players to buy through everything available on TP (including BiS gear in legendaries and ascended mats).

> My rewards aren't devalued. And, you might not be aware, but lots of rewards introduced since launch, _including the new legendaries_, cannot be acquired through credit card alone.

 

The vast majority of the components and the grinding parts required for 2nd legendary is acquired with gold (mystic coins, ectos, mystic clovers (via recipe), gemstones, the mystic curios, the crafting materials from tier 3-6, ingots, wood log). Just making the final product account bound doesn't mean gold doesn't help in an extreme way. Same goes for legendary armors/trinkets but atleast they're timegated to few months and on top of this even after almost 6 years the 1st gen can still be outright bought with money.

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > 2) Gold seller will exist with or without Anet removing this or not.

> How is this different from your point (1)?

 

Hmm that was the point. They have existed (and still continue to do so as I'm writing this post).

 

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >

> > 3) It doesn't have to be common or uncommon to "prove" anything here.

> You're contending that ANet's mechanics haven't reduced the temptation of illicit gold — that requires proof.

 

Only Anet does but the incentive is there to use 3rd party sites since they offer cheaper (much cheaper infact) services/gold. Also to your original claim of the current system actually reducing RMT outside, do you have any data to back it up?

 

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > The fact is that the option is there is what is disturbing because it just devalues everything.

> How? My rewards aren't devalued if you whip out your plastic. Why are yours devalued if I use mine?

 

Because they were supposed to be rare and meant to be earned ingame with ingame methods? I linked the video of Anet dev mentioning the same in the 1st page when gw2 released. Something that is meant to be an endgame goal and requires time and dedication (and farming) to acquire, if that same thing can be acquired just with real life cash or made way easier (incase of 2nd gen) then that's the very definition of devaluation of the said item.

 

 

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > This is an MMO and it directly/indirectly affects other people in the sense if the said items are valuable or not. What's the point of playing and working so hard towards something if I know someone can swipe CC and get it instantly?

> That's a good question. If you think the answer is, "because hardly anyone else has it," then it seems to me that it is you who is devaluing your own effort.

>

> Like... I can make a stellar dinner for friends. And my neighbor can credit card the same food from a professional chef and serve it up as if it's their own. How is my meal devalued by theirs? I know what I accomplished, my neighbors knows what a credit card made possible.

>

Like I said this is a MMO and everyone is directly or indirectly affected by it through the ingame economy which is way smaller than the real life economy and also in terms of population.

I'll give you another more appropriate real life analogy:

Student 1 secures 60% in an exam while student 2 secures 40% in the same examination to get admission to an institution. The same institution also offers a service that takes a hefty amount of money for direct admission regardless of how much a student has scored. So if student 2 is rich enough for that he'll directly be admitted to it while student 1 (who has scored 20% more) have to go through more examinations/interviews. What's devalued in this case? The admission and the examination i.e. the final product and procedure.

 

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> > I think it's also why only Gen1 Legendary weapons are sold on the TP (which have the same stats of their ascended counterparts).

>

> All legendaries have the same stats as ascended, no matter what generation they are.

>

> If I remember correctly they said making Gen 1 legendaries tradable was an oversight - no one considered the implications of them being unbound on creation. And by the time they decided it was a bad idea it was too well established - people had already sold, or bought, legendaries and they decided changing it would upset more people than it would please.

>

> But when they started making new ones they made them account bound, so if people want to make sure everyone knows they made their legendary they have an option. (And because new legendaries was part of the expansion and they wanted players to buy the expansion to get the items as well as the content.)

 

It was and still never too late to change them to account bound. Legendaries are best in slot weapons and them not being account bound or their crafting mats means they can be bought with real life money straight away which is essentially pay-to-win. It gives **statistical advantage** over a new player who doesn't have any ascended equipment yet.

 

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> >

> > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> >

>

> All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

>

> If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

>

> The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

 

I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

 

 

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> What's the worst that happens if this gets put in? I mean really, lets be honest, Anet has implemented some really bad ideas already, would it really kill them to remove the Gold/Gem trade?

 

No it wouldn't but instead it'll wipe the pay-to-win stigma from this game which is why I'm worried about. Currently in WvW, gears matters and that's a PvP environment.

 

> @"Ashabhi.1365" said:

> For what it's worth:

>

> 1. There is a group of players out there (including me) who get the majority of their gems trough in-game gold. This means that we play the game, use the gold to convert to gems to buy stuff in the shop. WIthout the gold-to-gems and vice versa, we would not be able to do that.

> 2. This is a system that works. The need for people to go to 3rd party gold sellers is simply not there. A bit of a discount for gems isn't worth the risk of losing all your stuff to a scammer.

> 3. Most ascended mats that I know of are account bound on acquire. Nobody is buying ascended parts. Exotic T6 mats are an entirely different story. Those are able to be bought and sold (and I've made a pretty penny on farming them and selling.) Here's the problem with your statement: Nobody has to buy them. Anyone can gather/farm those mats, or buy them with laurels (log in rewards.)

>

> From what I am reading in the OP's post,it sounds more like she/he is upset that they can't afford more gems to convert to gold so they can buy mats. My only piece of advice would be to play the game. If done right, you can make nice coinage just playing.

 

1. You can acquire the majority of the gems with ingame gold because someone else buys the gems and sells them to you ingame.

2. The need for people to go to 3rd party gold sellers is already there since they offer cheaper gold (and services) so that's unavoidable and will always be a thing in MMOs and online games. To use this as an excuse to sell gold and rewards directly with real life money is poor decision.

3. The major finished ascended mats required for ascended crafting are NOT account bound and constitutes the main grind behind it. That includes t7 ingots/bolt of cloth/cured leather. You also need the inscription which can also be acquired with gold (and real life money). This is the disturbing part of the entire process. If **EVERY** material in ascended crafting was account bound, this problem would be minimized atleast in respect to ascended crafting.

 

I don't ever convert gems to gold like ever but atleast I don't pretend that the option doesn't exist for those who wanna straight up buy legendary weapons/asceneded mats/other infusions.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> > >

> > > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> > >

> >

> > All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

> >

> > If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

> >

> > The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

>

> I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

 

Outdated? Okay, so you agree that in the past pay to win had a differing meaning.

 

What grinding? You must be new to the game and/or this must be your first MMO. The grind in this game is non-existent compared to industry standards.

 

Again, 95% of the games PVE content is balanced around rare and exotic gear (which takes less than 1 hour to get at level 80).

 

The competitive game mode is 0 influenced by gear.

 

The only place where gear might be of minor consequence is WvW, and that game mode is dictated by numbers per faction.

 

You are simply new and want to complain about something because you don't have your shiny now. I'll repeat what I said 2 times already by now: GEAR IS INSIGNIFICANT AS GOLD PURCHASE in this game. You are simply comparing your new account to players who have probably played this game since launch. Newsflash: I have never spent 1 dollar/euro on gold and you will never catch up to me in terms of in-game ascended and legendary gear, not to mention achievement points.

 

The best part about this: it doesn't matter past the first or second set of ascended gear. (not to mention all the ways implemented by now to get free ascended stuff left and right. If someone were allowed to complain it would be veterans about how much easier Arenanet has made the game to get ascended).

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Apparently addressing individual misunderstandings isn't getting the point across. Empirically, gaming studios have found that offering an official cash to in-game currency mechanic reduces account theft, reduces fraud. And in part this is measured by how much time their support staff has to spend dealing with the side effects of RMT. There's plenty of studios that have spoken about this publicly, including some details from ANet here and there. So regardless of any of our preferences, this type of thing is here to stay.

 

And separately, I don't accept the assumption that my efforts are devalued by what someone else has chosen to do. In the same way that some people have completed all the JPs using mesmer portals, I know which ones I've done and how much I learned in order to be able to do them on my own. Nothing that anyone else has chosen to do can take that away from me. If the OP feels that their efforts are diminished by other people's use of shortcuts (credit card or otherwise), that's something they need to deal with.

 

In short, the OP hasn't provided any new argument that would cause ANet to even consider the idea of reconsidering the system.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> **Apparently addressing individual misunderstandings isn't getting the point across. Empirically, gaming studios have found that offering an official cash to in-game currency mechanic reduces account theft, reduces fraud. And in part this is measured by how much time their support staff has to spend dealing with the side effects of RMT. There's plenty of studios that have spoken about this publicly, including some details from ANet here and there. So regardless of any of our preferences, this type of thing is here to stay.**

>

> And separately, I don't accept the assumption that my efforts are devalued by what someone else has chosen to do. In the same way that some people have completed all the JPs using mesmer portals, I know which ones I've done and how much I learned in order to be able to do them on my own. Nothing that anyone else has chosen to do can take that away from me. If the OP feels that their efforts are diminished by other people's use of shortcuts (credit card or otherwise), that's something they need to deal with.

>

> In short, the OP hasn't provided any new argument that would cause ANet to even consider the idea of reconsidering the system.

 

This.

 

Inform yourself TC if you want to get taken seriously. Your assumptions about gold selling/buying from 3rd party sites are simply contradicted by industry experience.

 

 

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> > > >

> > > > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> > > >

> > >

> > > All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

> > >

> > > If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

> > >

> > > The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

> >

> > I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

>

> Outdated? Okay, so you agree that in the past pay to win had a differing meaning.

>

> What grinding? You must be new to the game and/or this must be your first MMO. The grind in this game is non-existent compared to industry standards.

>

> Again, 95% of the games PVE content is balanced around rare and exotic gear (which takes less than 1 hour to get at level 80).

>

> The competitive game mode is 0 influenced by gear.

>

> The only place where gear might be of minor consequence is WvW, and that game mode is dictated by numbers per faction.

>

> You are simply new and want to complain about something because you don't have your shiny now. I'll repeat what I said 2 times already by now: GEAR IS INSIGNIFICANT AS GOLD PURCHASE in this game. You are simply comparing your new account to players who have probably played this game since launch.

 

Anything that gives a player advantage which is buyable with gold (which is bought with real life money) is pay-to-win and this is exactly what I want this game to get rid off. This isn't some new definition although it might vary from person to person.

 

What grind? Grinding for materials to get to crafting 500? Grinding for materials to refine them daily? Grinding for low tiers materials to craft the t7 ascended mats (ingots/bolts/cured leather)? _OR simply use CC and buy those from TP save yourself that_. The problem isn't the grind, the problem is the option to skip it in exchange of real life money. This isn't anything different to bribing in a real life situation where you "skip" the effort to get something done.

 

Exotics and rares aren't BiS, so whether the game is balanced around them is moot point because statistically ascended will make it easier than exotics/rare in every content. Add +5 stat infusions to them and you get a pretty big stat bonus.

 

Not all competitive modes. WvW is competitive by definition since it's a large scale **PvP** mode and there gears are NOT normalized.

 

Numbers per faction/server/world matters as does other factors which includes gear. A zerg in full ascended with full +5 stats infusions will have a big advantage over a zerg with full exotics. Are you intentionally overlooking this fact?

 

I'm not someone new and this has always bothered me ever since release. Now that other games in the same genre is abusing cash shops via similar methods for the past few years and killing themselves in the process it made me worried about this game because I have myself invest a lot of time and money in this game and don't want it to suffer a similar fate due to this.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Newsflash: I have never spent 1 dollar/euro on gold and you will never catch up to me **in terms of in-game ascended and legendary gear**, not to mention achievement points.

 

I can't tell if you're baiting me but that's exactly real money can do. Buy all gen 1 legendaries, buy all buyable mats of gen 2 legendaries and VOILA, 80% of the work is done. The rest are either timegated (legendary armor LIs) or requires collections/gift of battle which are nothing compared to the effort of getting gold in making a legendary. Not to mention you can buy raid runs for LIs WITH GOLD.

 

Despite this I'll say, keep the value of gold of being usable to buy everything ingame like how it is now. **My only request is to remove buying gold with real life money.**

 

[Zaraki.5784]

If you remove gems->gold conversion, gems price will skyrocket without never decreasing anymore.

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> If you remove gems->gold conversion, gems price will skyrocket without never decreasing anymore.

 

Yeah people will be finally be able to spend real money for those account service/cosmetics instead like every other MMOs out there. The pay-to-win argument mainly comes from the gems --> gold conversion and this kind of model has killed games (see AA).

[Zaraki.5784]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > If you remove gems->gold conversion, gems price will skyrocket without never decreasing anymore.

>

> Yeah people will be finally be able to spend real money for those account service/cosmetics instead like every other MMOs out there. The pay-to-win argument mainly comes from the gems --> gold conversion and this kind of model has killed games (see AA).

 

So you don't want people to be able to buy gems with in-game golds anymore?

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > If you remove gems->gold conversion, gems price will skyrocket without never decreasing anymore.

> >

> > Yeah people will be finally be able to spend real money for those account service/cosmetics instead like every other MMOs out there. The pay-to-win argument mainly comes from the gems --> gold conversion and this kind of model has killed games (see AA).

>

> So you don't want people to be able to buy gems with in-game golds anymore?

 

I want a sustainable business model which is fair to all players in the long run. Anet will lose revenue from selling gold but they could very well gain some back where people were using ingame gold --> gems to buy bank slots/character slots/cosmetics, etc.

 

Why I am saying this? Because this gives the haters the arguments for "pay-to-win" elements in GW2 which is partly true because with gold you can buy most mats for endgame stuffs (I mentioned it in opening post) and this gives bad publicity to the game and discourages new players from joining. I mentioned in the last page in a post, I convinced one of my RL buddies recently to try out and when he saw the option of buying ingame gold with money, it turned him off because gold is the primary currency of this game.

[Tzarakiel.7490]

The gem/gold conversion was implemented to reduce RMT and botting. It exists so that trade sites won't scam players and bots will spam map chat less. Using progression as an argument against gem conversion won't matter since that was never its purpose

[Randulf.7614]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > If you remove gems->gold conversion, gems price will skyrocket without never decreasing anymore.

> > >

> > > Yeah people will be finally be able to spend real money for those account service/cosmetics instead like every other MMOs out there. The pay-to-win argument mainly comes from the gems --> gold conversion and this kind of model has killed games (see AA).

> >

> > So you don't want people to be able to buy gems with in-game golds anymore?

>

> I want a sustainable business model which is fair to all players in the long run. Anet will lose revenue from selling gold but they could very well gain some back where people were using ingame gold --> gems to buy bank slots/character slots/cosmetics, etc.

>

> Why I am saying this? Because this gives the haters the arguments for "pay-to-win" elements in GW2 which is partly true because with gold you can buy most mats for endgame stuffs (I mentioned it in opening post) and this gives bad publicity to the game and discourages new players from joining. I mentioned in the last page in a post, I convinced one of my RL buddies recently to try out and when he saw the option of buying ingame gold with money, it turned him off because gold is the primary currency of this game.

 

That is one person. As you are seeing in this thread, large numbers of players are attracted to this business model. Secret World recently changed from what you are suggesting to the gw2 model of currency exchange and is now doing really well, better than ever in fact because of it. It would seem, the age old argument of “account being devalued” isnt something a wider playerbase care about.

 

There sre always going to be disadvantages, but right now the system works and is popular with players. In 6 years it hasn t generated the bad press you expect, if anything it has been lauded.

 

Right now, they have a sustainable business model which most players are content and happy with

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Tzarakiel.7490" said:

> The gem/gold conversion was implemented to reduce RMT and botting. It exists so that trade sites won't scam players and bots will spam map chat less. Using progression as an argument against gem conversion won't matter since that was never its purpose

 

You'd be right if more stuffs were account bound and not outright buyable with gold but they're not. Progression tied to gear is heavily dependent on gold directly or indirectly via crafting materials. Progression tied to achievements are also tied to gold (common/rare collections, BL skin collections, legendary precursor collection, general achievements etc). Progression in fractals/raids are tied to gear and infusions which are obtainable with gold.

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > If you remove gems->gold conversion, gems price will skyrocket without never decreasing anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah people will be finally be able to spend real money for those account service/cosmetics instead like every other MMOs out there. The pay-to-win argument mainly comes from the gems --> gold conversion and this kind of model has killed games (see AA).

> > >

> > > So you don't want people to be able to buy gems with in-game golds anymore?

> >

> > I want a sustainable business model which is fair to all players in the long run. Anet will lose revenue from selling gold but they could very well gain some back where people were using ingame gold --> gems to buy bank slots/character slots/cosmetics, etc.

> >

> > Why I am saying this? Because this gives the haters the arguments for "pay-to-win" elements in GW2 which is partly true because with gold you can buy most mats for endgame stuffs (I mentioned it in opening post) and this gives bad publicity to the game and discourages new players from joining. I mentioned in the last page in a post, I convinced one of my RL buddies recently to try out and when he saw the option of buying ingame gold with money, it turned him off because gold is the primary currency of this game.

>

> That is one person. As you are seeing in this thread, large numbers of players are attracted to this business model. Secret World recently changed from what you are suggesting to the gw2 model of currency exchange and is now doing really well, better than ever in fact because of it. It would seem, the age old argument of “account being devalued” isnt something a wider playerbase care about.

>

> There sre always going to be disadvantages, but right now the system works and is popular with players. In 6 years it hasn t generated the bad press you expect, if anything it has been lauded.

>

> Right now, they have a sustainable business model which most players are content and happy with

 

That is one person whom I personally know but in reality there could be thousand potential customers who are interested in gw2 but immediately turned off by this. This is the game's forum where outsiders can't voice their opinion on it and a minority of players actually posts in the forum. If you go to a broader platform like reddit, you'll notice this is an issue. This is just one simple google search about the game you mentioned:

 

It could do better than ever but that doesn't mean it's an attractive and sustainable business model and the game has been out for just a year. On top of that SWL is a F2P game completely whereas GW2 is still B2P because of expansions. Many games go F2P to save it from death as a last try and those games are usually riddled with pay-to-win stuffs like this. Paying for any statistical advantage ingame is essentially pay-to-win and that includes reaching top gear faster than a non-paying customer. Have you heard of the MMO called "Archeage" and what this model did to the game? They sold something called Apex with real life money which allowed players (aka whales) to get better gear in a short period of time and that essentially killed it.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Oh, good heavens. I think there isn't a very big segment of the playerbase that 'buys their way to endgame'; the OP states this 'pay-to-win' turns players away, so if that is true, there can't be very many players using it. And yet, the game seems quite well populated after nearly six years. It makes one wonder why, if the Gem/Gold exchange is such a terrible feature.

 

Also, the OP is mistaken if she thinks the only accounts that are compromised are from players using RMT sites. RMTraders will target any account to strip it bare, and/or use it to distribute illicit Gold/items.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

> > > >

> > > > If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

> > > >

> > > > The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

> > >

> > > I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

> >

> > Outdated? Okay, so you agree that in the past pay to win had a differing meaning.

> >

> > What grinding? You must be new to the game and/or this must be your first MMO. The grind in this game is non-existent compared to industry standards.

> >

> > Again, 95% of the games PVE content is balanced around rare and exotic gear (which takes less than 1 hour to get at level 80).

> >

> > The competitive game mode is 0 influenced by gear.

> >

> > The only place where gear might be of minor consequence is WvW, and that game mode is dictated by numbers per faction.

> >

> > You are simply new and want to complain about something because you don't have your shiny now. I'll repeat what I said 2 times already by now: GEAR IS INSIGNIFICANT AS GOLD PURCHASE in this game. You are simply comparing your new account to players who have probably played this game since launch.

>

> Anything that gives a player advantage which is buyable with gold (which is bought with real life money) is pay-to-win and this is exactly what I want this game to get rid off. This isn't some new definition although it might vary from person to person.

>

> What grind? Grinding for materials to get to crafting 500? Grinding for materials to refine them daily? Grinding for low tiers materials to craft the t7 ascended mats (ingots/bolts/cured leather)? _OR simply use CC and buy those from TP save yourself that_. The problem isn't the grind, the problem is the option to skip it in exchange of real life money. This isn't anything different to bribing in a real life situation where you "skip" the effort to get something done.

>

> Exotics and rares aren't BiS, so whether the game is balanced around them is moot point because statistically ascended will make it easier than exotics/rare in every content. Add +5 stat infusions to them and you get a pretty big stat bonus.

>

> Not all competitive modes. WvW is competitive by definition since it's a large scale **PvP** mode and there gears are NOT normalized.

>

> Numbers per faction/server/world matters as does other factors which includes gear. A zerg in full ascended with full +5 stats infusions will have a big advantage over a zerg with full exotics. Are you intentionally overlooking this fact?

>

> I'm not someone new and this has always bothered me ever since release. Now that other games in the same genre is abusing cash shops via similar methods for the past few years and killing themselves in the process it made me worried about this game because I have myself invest a lot of time and money in this game and don't want it to suffer a similar fate due to this.

 

I'd do the math for you on how little hours that actually takes (I'll even take medium armor since it's the most expensive):

Leatherworking 1-400 is 34 gold if fast crafted (26 gold if normal)

Leatherworking 401-500 is 36 gold

- Source http://gw2crafts.net/leatherworking.html

 

A full set of Zojja's medium leather armor costs 290 gold

- Source gw2efficiency

 

**That's a total of 360 gold for an endgame set.**

 

Even with only 10g per hour (RIBA is around 15-20 if you are unlucky) that's **less than 2 days farmed for a complete endgame set** which you will never have to upgrade again. In an MMO which people have sunk over 5k, 10k or even 15k hours. Where 95% of the content is balanced around rare and exotic gear. For the currently most expensive armor of the 3.

 

Ascended weapons are even more hilarious with the vast amount which are given out FREE or cheaply from achievements:

- Knight of the Thorn quest line

- specialization weapons

- some of the collection weapons which are easy to get

 

and cost around 40-60 gold a piece IF one has to craft one.

 

Now you are either a very persistent troll, have 0 clue about this game or just want to vent on a poorly picked topic.

 

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Newsflash: I have never spent 1 dollar/euro on gold and you will never catch up to me **in terms of in-game ascended and legendary gear**, not to mention achievement points.

>

> I can't tell if you're baiting me but that's exactly real money can do. Buy all gen 1 legendaries, buy all buyable mats of gen 2 legendaries and VOILA, 80% of the work is done. The rest are either timegated (legendary armor LIs) or requires collections/gift of battle which are nothing compared to the effort of getting gold in making a legendary. Not to mention you can buy raid runs for LIs WITH GOLD.

>

> Despite this I'll say, keep the value of gold of being usable to buy everything ingame like how it is now. **My only request is to remove buying gold with real life money.**

>

 

If you think the gold sink is the annoying part about T2 legenarys, I have a boat to sell you. Go make one first (as have I) and then come back here spouting this nonsense. I dare you make Nevermore and come back here and tell people the gold you were missing was the taxing or infuriating part.

 

Legendary armor can not be bought, legendary T2 can not be bought, legendary back piece can not be bought, legendary accessory can not be bought, the future legendary ring will not be buy-able.

 

Not only that but having ascended weapons is actually beneficial versus legendary weapons due to sigils. Just an FYI. All other slots can not be bought. Go read up.

[phs.6089]

It killed games that were offering special items to update your equipment into BiS and made it stronger, things that others had to grind for half a year if not more.

There is NOTHING in GW2 that will allow you to autowin and oneshot.(Praise Joko!!!!)

 

Legendary is just a convenience item with nice cosmetis. Game has farming maps that will alow you to get enough gold for full set of ascended mats for your gear (6 pices) in under 1 week of 2 hours farm per day.

 

P.S. Legendary gear in GW2 is not a BiS period

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

> > > > >

> > > > > The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

> > >

> > > Outdated? Okay, so you agree that in the past pay to win had a differing meaning.

> > >

> > > What grinding? You must be new to the game and/or this must be your first MMO. The grind in this game is non-existent compared to industry standards.

> > >

> > > Again, 95% of the games PVE content is balanced around rare and exotic gear (which takes less than 1 hour to get at level 80).

> > >

> > > The competitive game mode is 0 influenced by gear.

> > >

> > > The only place where gear might be of minor consequence is WvW, and that game mode is dictated by numbers per faction.

> > >

> > > You are simply new and want to complain about something because you don't have your shiny now. I'll repeat what I said 2 times already by now: GEAR IS INSIGNIFICANT AS GOLD PURCHASE in this game. You are simply comparing your new account to players who have probably played this game since launch.

> >

> > Anything that gives a player advantage which is buyable with gold (which is bought with real life money) is pay-to-win and this is exactly what I want this game to get rid off. This isn't some new definition although it might vary from person to person.

> >

> > What grind? Grinding for materials to get to crafting 500? Grinding for materials to refine them daily? Grinding for low tiers materials to craft the t7 ascended mats (ingots/bolts/cured leather)? _OR simply use CC and buy those from TP save yourself that_. The problem isn't the grind, the problem is the option to skip it in exchange of real life money. This isn't anything different to bribing in a real life situation where you "skip" the effort to get something done.

> >

> > Exotics and rares aren't BiS, so whether the game is balanced around them is moot point because statistically ascended will make it easier than exotics/rare in every content. Add +5 stat infusions to them and you get a pretty big stat bonus.

> >

> > Not all competitive modes. WvW is competitive by definition since it's a large scale **PvP** mode and there gears are NOT normalized.

> >

> > Numbers per faction/server/world matters as does other factors which includes gear. A zerg in full ascended with full +5 stats infusions will have a big advantage over a zerg with full exotics. Are you intentionally overlooking this fact?

> >

> > I'm not someone new and this has always bothered me ever since release. Now that other games in the same genre is abusing cash shops via similar methods for the past few years and killing themselves in the process it made me worried about this game because I have myself invest a lot of time and money in this game and don't want it to suffer a similar fate due to this.

>

> I'd do the math for you on how little hours that actually takes (I'll even take medium armor since it's the most expensive):

> Leatherworking 1-400 is 34 gold if fast crafted (26 gold if normal)

> Leatherworking 401-500 is 36 gold

> - Source http://gw2crafts.net/leatherworking.html

>

> A full set of Zojja's medium leather armor costs 290 gold

> - Source gw2efficiency

>

> **That's a total of 360 gold for an endgame set.**

>

> Even with only 10g per hour (RIBA is around 15-20 if you are unlucky) that's **less than 2 days farmed for a complete endgame set** which you will never have to upgrade again. In an MMO which people have sunk over 5k, 10k or even 15k hours. Where 95% of the content is balanced around rare and exotic gear. For the currently most expensive armor of the 3.

 

And those consume time and effort which a paying customer is entirely skipping and that was the point of the thread. The amount of time skipped is absolutely irrelevant in obtaining BiS gear. Which part of that don't you understand again?

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Ascended weapons are even more hilarious with the vast amount which are given out FREE or cheaply from achievements:

> - Knight of the Thorn quest line

> - specialization weapons

> - some of the collection weapons which are easy to get

>

> and cost around 40-60 gold a piece IF one has to craft one.

 

Nothing is given out for FREE if you have to put the effort in. The Knight of the Thorn quest line requires ingame effort and is rewarded appropriately for it. Same for specialization collections. Those are the ways it should have been done correctly. But for crafting? Swipe CC and get the ascended weapon immediately in very little time. Again, an advantage of paying customers over non-paying ones.

 

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Now you are either a very persistent troll, have 0 clue about this game or just want to vent on a poorly picked topic.

 

Good to see you resort to ad-hominem attacks and trying to diiverge the topic into something it is not.

 

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Legendary armor can not be bought, legendary T2 can not be bought, legendary back piece can not be bought, legendary accessory can not be bought, the future legendary ring will not be buy-able.

>

> Not only that but having ascended weapons is actually beneficial versus legendary weapons due to sigils. Just an FYI. All other slots can not be bought. Go read up.

 

Legendary armor/2nd Gen legendaries cannot be bought directly but gold drastically reduces the effort taken to obtain them. Buy gold, pay for carry to get the collections done and required amount of runs to get enough LI, buy rest of the materials from trading post. Now point out which part of this cannot be bought from gold (aka real money)? For gen 2 legendaries, buying all buyable crafting mats reduces the entire process to an extremely easy level. All you literally have to do is do HoT map completion, farm 250 crystalline ingots from DS and Gift of battle. Now compared to the someone who have to craft one ingame farming gemstones, t3-6 materials, 10k+ mithrils, elder wood, 250 mystic coins, 77 clovers, etc in addition to the ones mentioned

 

Let's see what other "brilliant" logic you come up with.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

> > > >

> > > > Outdated? Okay, so you agree that in the past pay to win had a differing meaning.

> > > >

> > > > What grinding? You must be new to the game and/or this must be your first MMO. The grind in this game is non-existent compared to industry standards.

> > > >

> > > > Again, 95% of the games PVE content is balanced around rare and exotic gear (which takes less than 1 hour to get at level 80).

> > > >

> > > > The competitive game mode is 0 influenced by gear.

> > > >

> > > > The only place where gear might be of minor consequence is WvW, and that game mode is dictated by numbers per faction.

> > > >

> > > > You are simply new and want to complain about something because you don't have your shiny now. I'll repeat what I said 2 times already by now: GEAR IS INSIGNIFICANT AS GOLD PURCHASE in this game. You are simply comparing your new account to players who have probably played this game since launch.

> > >

> > > Anything that gives a player advantage which is buyable with gold (which is bought with real life money) is pay-to-win and this is exactly what I want this game to get rid off. This isn't some new definition although it might vary from person to person.

> > >

> > > What grind? Grinding for materials to get to crafting 500? Grinding for materials to refine them daily? Grinding for low tiers materials to craft the t7 ascended mats (ingots/bolts/cured leather)? _OR simply use CC and buy those from TP save yourself that_. The problem isn't the grind, the problem is the option to skip it in exchange of real life money. This isn't anything different to bribing in a real life situation where you "skip" the effort to get something done.

> > >

> > > Exotics and rares aren't BiS, so whether the game is balanced around them is moot point because statistically ascended will make it easier than exotics/rare in every content. Add +5 stat infusions to them and you get a pretty big stat bonus.

> > >

> > > Not all competitive modes. WvW is competitive by definition since it's a large scale **PvP** mode and there gears are NOT normalized.

> > >

> > > Numbers per faction/server/world matters as does other factors which includes gear. A zerg in full ascended with full +5 stats infusions will have a big advantage over a zerg with full exotics. Are you intentionally overlooking this fact?

> > >

> > > I'm not someone new and this has always bothered me ever since release. Now that other games in the same genre is abusing cash shops via similar methods for the past few years and killing themselves in the process it made me worried about this game because I have myself invest a lot of time and money in this game and don't want it to suffer a similar fate due to this.

> >

> > I'd do the math for you on how little hours that actually takes (I'll even take medium armor since it's the most expensive):

> > Leatherworking 1-400 is 34 gold if fast crafted (26 gold if normal)

> > Leatherworking 401-500 is 36 gold

> > - Source http://gw2crafts.net/leatherworking.html

> >

> > A full set of Zojja's medium leather armor costs 290 gold

> > - Source gw2efficiency

> >

> > **That's a total of 360 gold for an endgame set.**

> >

> > Even with only 10g per hour (RIBA is around 15-20 if you are unlucky) that's **less than 2 days farmed for a complete endgame set** which you will never have to upgrade again. In an MMO which people have sunk over 5k, 10k or even 15k hours. Where 95% of the content is balanced around rare and exotic gear. For the currently most expensive armor of the 3.

>

> And those consume time and effort which a paying customer is entirely skipping and that was the point of the thread. The amount of time skipped is absolutely irrelevant in obtaining BiS gear. Which part of that don't you understand again?

 

The part which you don't get, your personal definition of pay to win does not match or is not the widely accepted for the term. The amount of time required in this game is insignificant compared both to other MMOs and the play time of the average player on the game.

 

This not is not an "I am right you are wrong", this is a:"You have a different definition of a term which almost no one else shares on this board at least."

 

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Ascended weapons are even more hilarious with the vast amount which are given out FREE or cheaply from achievements:

> > - Knight of the Thorn quest line

> > - specialization weapons

> > - some of the collection weapons which are easy to get

> >

> > and cost around 40-60 gold a piece IF one has to craft one.

>

> Nothing is given out for FREE if you have to put the effort in. The Knight of the Thorn quest line requires ingame effort and is rewarded appropriately for it. Same for specialization collections. Those are the ways it should have been done correctly. But for crafting? Swipe CC and get the ascended weapon immediately in very little time. Again, an advantage of paying customers over non-paying ones.

 

The Knight of Thorn quest line takes 50 minutes and rewards an ascended best in slot weapon. I more and more believe you are simply playing the wrong type of game. This is a MMORPG, single player games are -> way.

 

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Legendary armor can not be bought, legendary T2 can not be bought, legendary back piece can not be bought, legendary accessory can not be bought, the future legendary ring will not be buy-able.

> >

> > Not only that but having ascended weapons is actually beneficial versus legendary weapons due to sigils. Just an FYI. All other slots can not be bought. Go read up.

>

> Legendary armor/2nd Gen legendaries cannot be bought directly but gold drastically reduces the effort taken to obtain them.

> Buy gold, pay for carry to get the collections done and required amount of runs to get enough LI, buy rest of the materials from trading post. Now point out which part of > this cannot be bought from gold (aka real money)? For gen 2 legendaries, buying all buyable crafting mats reduces the entire process to an extremely easy level. All you literally have to do is do HoT map completion, farm 250 crystalline ingots from DS and Gift of battle. Now compared to the someone who have to craft one ingame farming gemstones, t3-6 materials, 10k+ mithrils, elder wood, 250 mystic coins, 77 clovers, etc in addition to the ones mentioned

>

> Let's see what other "brilliant" logic you come up with.

 

My brilliant logic is this: I've actually done all of those things, multiple times and am fine with the system in place. You are merely complaining on something you have not ever completed.

 

The materials in all of those collections were NEVER even remotely close to being the most annoying or time consuming aspect to get. You'd see that too if you actually spent some time on acquiring or working towards one of the items you speak about instead of theory-crafting.

[phs.6089]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

 

> Legendary armor/2nd Gen legendaries cannot be bought directly but gold drastically reduces the effort taken to obtain them. Buy gold, pay for carry to get the collections done and required amount of runs to get enough LI, buy rest of the materials from trading post. Now point out which part of this cannot be bought from gold (aka real money)? For gen 2 legendaries, buying all buyable crafting mats reduces the entire process to an extremely easy level. All you literally have to do is do HoT map completion, farm 250 crystalline ingots from DS and Gift of battle. Now compared to the someone who have to craft one ingame farming gemstones, t3-6 materials, 10k+ mithrils, elder wood, 250 mystic coins, 77 clovers, etc in addition to the ones mentioned

>

> Let's see what other "brilliant" logic you come up with.

 

People that pay to be carried in dungeons will find a way, trust me. Pay with items from Cash Shop etc

 

Question here is why do you care what people are doing with their money? I'll repeat this gain. Legendary in game is NOT a BIS. There is nothing in game to allow you autowin, 1 vs 7, oneshot etc.

So why do you care of how many people will get legendary gear and how?

 

 

BTW to make legendary 2 you need full HoT masteries unlocked, that is a huge work. HUGE

 

[GwAddict.9746]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

> > > > >

> > > > > Outdated? Okay, so you agree that in the past pay to win had a differing meaning.

> > > > >

> > > > > What grinding? You must be new to the game and/or this must be your first MMO. The grind in this game is non-existent compared to industry standards.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, 95% of the games PVE content is balanced around rare and exotic gear (which takes less than 1 hour to get at level 80).

> > > > >

> > > > > The competitive game mode is 0 influenced by gear.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only place where gear might be of minor consequence is WvW, and that game mode is dictated by numbers per faction.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are simply new and want to complain about something because you don't have your shiny now. I'll repeat what I said 2 times already by now: GEAR IS INSIGNIFICANT AS GOLD PURCHASE in this game. You are simply comparing your new account to players who have probably played this game since launch.

> > > >

> > > > Anything that gives a player advantage which is buyable with gold (which is bought with real life money) is pay-to-win and this is exactly what I want this game to get rid off. This isn't some new definition although it might vary from person to person.

> > > >

> > > > What grind? Grinding for materials to get to crafting 500? Grinding for materials to refine them daily? Grinding for low tiers materials to craft the t7 ascended mats (ingots/bolts/cured leather)? _OR simply use CC and buy those from TP save yourself that_. The problem isn't the grind, the problem is the option to skip it in exchange of real life money. This isn't anything different to bribing in a real life situation where you "skip" the effort to get something done.

> > > >

> > > > Exotics and rares aren't BiS, so whether the game is balanced around them is moot point because statistically ascended will make it easier than exotics/rare in every content. Add +5 stat infusions to them and you get a pretty big stat bonus.

> > > >

> > > > Not all competitive modes. WvW is competitive by definition since it's a large scale **PvP** mode and there gears are NOT normalized.

> > > >

> > > > Numbers per faction/server/world matters as does other factors which includes gear. A zerg in full ascended with full +5 stats infusions will have a big advantage over a zerg with full exotics. Are you intentionally overlooking this fact?

> > > >

> > > > I'm not someone new and this has always bothered me ever since release. Now that other games in the same genre is abusing cash shops via similar methods for the past few years and killing themselves in the process it made me worried about this game because I have myself invest a lot of time and money in this game and don't want it to suffer a similar fate due to this.

> > >

> > > I'd do the math for you on how little hours that actually takes (I'll even take medium armor since it's the most expensive):

> > > Leatherworking 1-400 is 34 gold if fast crafted (26 gold if normal)

> > > Leatherworking 401-500 is 36 gold

> > > - Source http://gw2crafts.net/leatherworking.html

> > >

> > > A full set of Zojja's medium leather armor costs 290 gold

> > > - Source gw2efficiency

> > >

> > > **That's a total of 360 gold for an endgame set.**

> > >

> > > Even with only 10g per hour (RIBA is around 15-20 if you are unlucky) that's **less than 2 days farmed for a complete endgame set** which you will never have to upgrade again. In an MMO which people have sunk over 5k, 10k or even 15k hours. Where 95% of the content is balanced around rare and exotic gear. For the currently most expensive armor of the 3.

> >

> > And those consume time and effort which a paying customer is entirely skipping and that was the point of the thread. The amount of time skipped is absolutely irrelevant in obtaining BiS gear. Which part of that don't you understand again?

>

> The part which you don't get, your personal definition of pay to win does not match or is not the widely accepted for the term. The amount of time required in this game is insignificant compared both to other MMOs and the play time of the average player on the game.

 

Kinda ironic that you're going on about your own personal definition and saying it isn't whereas other games are marked pay-to-win for the same stuff i.e. selling ingame currency for real life money. Whether it's insignifcant or not, that's a totally different subject and not the point of this thread. What matters is that money allows you to skip to end game BiS gear and get vast majority of the parts required to craft. Whether it's 1 day or 1 year is absolutely irrelevant when we are talking about best gear in the game.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> >

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > Ascended weapons are even more hilarious with the vast amount which are given out FREE or cheaply from achievements:

> > > - Knight of the Thorn quest line

> > > - specialization weapons

> > > - some of the collection weapons which are easy to get

> > >

> > > and cost around 40-60 gold a piece IF one has to craft one.

> >

> > Nothing is given out for FREE if you have to put the effort in. The Knight of the Thorn quest line requires ingame effort and is rewarded appropriately for it. Same for specialization collections. Those are the ways it should have been done correctly. But for crafting? Swipe CC and get the ascended weapon immediately in very little time. Again, an advantage of paying customers over non-paying ones.

>

> The Knight of Thorn quest line takes 50 minutes and rewards an ascended best in slot weapon. I more and more believe you are simply playing the wrong type of game. This is a MMORPG, single player games are -> way.

 

if something takes time why not let it remain obtainable that way? MMORPGs should reward effort for a quest or collection or whatever, not the amount of CC swiping you do to get the same BiS item. I'm not the one asking for it to be single player game nor was it the point of this thread.

 

 

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> My brilliant logic is this: I've actually done all of those things, multiple times and am fine with the system in place. You are merely complaining on something you have not ever completed.

>

> The materials in all of those collections were NEVER even remotely close to being the most annoying or time consuming aspect to get. You'd see that too if you actually spent some time on acquiring or working towards one of the items you speak about instead of theory-crafting.

 

The materials in all of those collections (that's only applicable to first 4 gen 2 weapons mind you) because you most likely bought them with real money. For others, the materials become the main challenge instead of doing those collections. And for rest of the weapons, it's just straight up materials sink which costs 10k+ each of mithril/elder wood along with shittons of t5 materials for the precursor. All these can be bought with gold and real money consequently.

 

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > > As far as gear, who cares? Longterm every dedicated player will have multiple sets anyway. If new players want to skip grind or rather spend money on getting gold instead of grinding due to limited playtime, so what?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You do realize this is exactly what Pay-to-win is, right? Being able to "skip" the grind by paying real life money instead of encouraging them to play to get Best in slot gear? Do you realize what happened to other games in this MMORPG genre which employed the same exact thing?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > All I realize is you redefining what pay to win means. Pay to win often refers to mechanics and advantages which can not be gained without purchasing them for real money or which are so restrictive that they are close to not obtainable via in game means. Thus creating a necessity of spending money to stay competative.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you think that a couple of hours to attain maximum ascended gear in an MMO can be considered pay to win if skipped, you should not be playing MMOs in the first place. In a game where 95% of the content does not even require (or is balanced around) this gear level non the less.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The biggest advantages in GW2 are actually from convenience items which are attainable via gems. Gear is absolutely insignificant gold and reward wise.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm not redifining anything. To me, it seems your definition is pretty outdated. Pay-to-win simply means giving statistical advantage (like BiS gear) for real life money regardless of how much time it takes to grind and ascended doesn't take 2 hours to get a full set. To many, grinding isn't favourable or doing daily tasks and hence why they justify the use of wallet to "skip" that part whereas the non-paying customer will have to go through the same grind to achieve it whether it takes months or years even if they don't like it JUST TO be on the same level statistically. **This is a big problem in WvW where gear isn't normalized and ascended provides extra stats through infusions (which can also be bought directly).**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Outdated? Okay, so you agree that in the past pay to win had a differing meaning.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What grinding? You must be new to the game and/or this must be your first MMO. The grind in this game is non-existent compared to industry standards.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, 95% of the games PVE content is balanced around rare and exotic gear (which takes less than 1 hour to get at level 80).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The competitive game mode is 0 influenced by gear.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The only place where gear might be of minor consequence is WvW, and that game mode is dictated by numbers per faction.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are simply new and want to complain about something because you don't have your shiny now. I'll repeat what I said 2 times already by now: GEAR IS INSIGNIFICANT AS GOLD PURCHASE in this game. You are simply comparing your new account to players who have probably played this game since launch.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anything that gives a player advantage which is buyable with gold (which is bought with real life money) is pay-to-win and this is exactly what I want this game to get rid off. This isn't some new definition although it might vary from person to person.

> > > > >

> > > > > What grind? Grinding for materials to get to crafting 500? Grinding for materials to refine them daily? Grinding for low tiers materials to craft the t7 ascended mats (ingots/bolts/cured leather)? _OR simply use CC and buy those from TP save yourself that_. The problem isn't the grind, the problem is the option to skip it in exchange of real life money. This isn't anything different to bribing in a real life situation where you "skip" the effort to get something done.

> > > > >

> > > > > Exotics and rares aren't BiS, so whether the game is balanced around them is moot point because statistically ascended will make it easier than exotics/rare in every content. Add +5 stat infusions to them and you get a pretty big stat bonus.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not all competitive modes. WvW is competitive by definition since it's a large scale **PvP** mode and there gears are NOT normalized.

> > > > >

> > > > > Numbers per faction/server/world matters as does other factors which includes gear. A zerg in full ascended with full +5 stats infusions will have a big advantage over a zerg with full exotics. Are you intentionally overlooking this fact?

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not someone new and this has always bothered me ever since release. Now that other games in the same genre is abusing cash shops via similar methods for the past few years and killing themselves in the process it made me worried about this game because I have myself invest a lot of time and money in this game and don't want it to suffer a similar fate due to this.

> > > >

> > > > I'd do the math for you on how little hours that actually takes (I'll even take medium armor since it's the most expensive):

> > > > Leatherworking 1-400 is 34 gold if fast crafted (26 gold if normal)

> > > > Leatherworking 401-500 is 36 gold

> > > > - Source http://gw2crafts.net/leatherworking.html

> > > >

> > > > A full set of Zojja's medium leather armor costs 290 gold

> > > > - Source gw2efficiency

> > > >

> > > > **That's a total of 360 gold for an endgame set.**

> > > >

> > > > Even with only 10g per hour (RIBA is around 15-20 if you are unlucky) that's **less than 2 days farmed for a complete endgame set** which you will never have to upgrade again. In an MMO which people have sunk over 5k, 10k or even 15k hours. Where 95% of the content is balanced around rare and exotic gear. For the currently most expensive armor of the 3.

> > >

> > > And those consume time and effort which a paying customer is entirely skipping and that was the point of the thread. The amount of time skipped is absolutely irrelevant in obtaining BiS gear. Which part of that don't you understand again?

> >

> > The part which you don't get, your personal definition of pay to win does not match or is not the widely accepted for the term. The amount of time required in this game is insignificant compared both to other MMOs and the play time of the average player on the game.

>

> Kinda ironic that you're going on about your own personal definition and saying it isn't whereas other games are marked pay-to-win for the same stuff i.e. selling ingame currency for real life money. Whether it's insignifcant or not, that's a totally different subject and not the point of this thread. What matters is that money allows you to skip to end game BiS gear and get vast majority of the parts required to craft. Whether it's 1 day or 1 year is absolutely irrelevant when we are talking about best gear in the game.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"GwAddict.9746" said:

> > >

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > Ascended weapons are even more hilarious with the vast amount which are given out FREE or cheaply from achievements:

> > > > - Knight of the Thorn quest line

> > > > - specialization weapons

> > > > - some of the collection weapons which are easy to get

> > > >

> > > > and cost around 40-60 gold a piece IF one has to craft one.

> > >

> > > Nothing is given out for FREE if you have to put the effort in. The Knight of the Thorn quest line requires ingame effort and is rewarded appropriately for it. Same for specialization collections. Those are the ways it should have been done correctly. But for crafting? Swipe CC and get the ascended weapon immediately in very little time. Again, an advantage of paying customers over non-paying ones.

> >

> > The Knight of Thorn quest line takes 50 minutes and rewards an ascended best in slot weapon. I more and more believe you are simply playing the wrong type of game. This is a MMORPG, single player games are -> way.

>

> if something takes time why not let it remain obtainable that way? MMORPGs should reward effort for a quest or collection or whatever, not the amount of CC swiping you do to get the same BiS item. I'm not the one asking for it to be single player game nor was it the point of this thread.

>

>

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > My brilliant logic is this: I've actually done all of those things, multiple times and am fine with the system in place. You are merely complaining on something you have not ever completed.

> >

> > The materials in all of those collections were NEVER even remotely close to being the most annoying or time consuming aspect to get. You'd see that too if you actually spent some time on acquiring or working towards one of the items you speak about instead of theory-crafting.

>

> The materials in all of those collections (that's only applicable to first 4 gen 2 weapons mind you) because you most likely bought them with real money. For others, the materials become the main challenge instead of doing those collections. And for rest of the weapons, it's just straight up materials sink which costs 10k+ each of mithril/elder wood along with shittons of t5 materials for the precursor. All these can be bought with gold and real money consequently.

>

 

All you get from that is the precusor - so a *ridiculously* expensive ascended weapon.

 

The actual legendaries still need full HoT masteries and full HoT map completion. The materials are really the smaller part.

 

Edit: alternatively, PoF map completion and a huge amount of repeating PoF hearts for timegated stuff