On elitism and stuff...

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"lokh.2695" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > > >

> > > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > > >

> > > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > > >

> > > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> > >

> > > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> > >

> > > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> > >

> > > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

> > >

> > > And @"Etheri.5406" picked to counter the ArcDPS statement because that was the open goal. It allowed him to disprove all of your assumptions with a single sentence.

> >

> > Yes they can.

>

> Pls give an alternative. How should Anet design their game to improve the habbits of their players. Please elaborate.

 

That's simple, make the entire game require zero effort or skill so players in white gear with random builds can finish it without trouble. Like core Tyria World Bosses for example, excluding the harder ones like Tequatl and Triple Trouble. Even better, make the game about farming moa in Queensdale and all problems with elitism and toxicity will be solved. /s

[Gehenna.3625]

Well OP, in your point 4 about toxicity, I'm not sure I agree that wanting group content being soloable with the exact same rewards is being toxic. I agree that grouping should be rewarded more but that's not about being toxic or not.

 

Beyond that, the problem in GW2 particularly is that it is a farming game by nature. So doing things fast is kind of a thing. When you look at almost everything, there are often multiple layers of things to do before you can even contribute to your actual goal. Not saying that elitist attitudes are cool, cause they're not, but I do understand that people want things done fast. That's why I avoid group content. I like to do things at my own pace and I do not expect others to adjust to me.

[reaVer.4056]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > >

> > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > >

> > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > >

> > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > >

> > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> >

> > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> >

> > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> >

>

> I disagree to some extent. You see, openworld PvE is a perfect example of how it "can work". You CAN create content that is doable by virtually anyone, despite the majority of players literally upscaling the bosses more than contributing, which is still quite succesful. Useless players can still feel useful, without any skill or investment which is something many players strive for. On top of that; all players have more or less the same goal. The goals of players with different preferences are alligned, not contradictory. This is achieved by making the content trivially simple; which is a major downside for anyone that enjoys a challenge and optimization. And different kinds of content are OK and healthy.

>

> Instead we have players who took the aspects they enjoy in open world PvE : which is mostly there being virtually no correlation between performance and rewards - and demanded this throughout the entire game. And anet can do that, if they want. By literally deleting everything challenging and competitive in the game, and continuously nerfing anything that is difficult. Like in openworld PvE. Remember when players complained orr was too difficult and it was massively nerfed across the board?? :trollface:

>

> The issue is these players expect this to go for the entire game. In fact, they DEMAND this to be true for all aspects of the game. And it is **NOT POSSIBLE** to unlike rewards, incentives AND alignment for PvP style modes. This is where I agree. You can't get competitive / challenging team content which rewards you (well) regardless of how you perform. That always leads to toxicity. In PvP, many players play to "win", to compete. Others play to be rewarded. Imagine winners and losers both get roughly the same rewards. That would make it so those who just want rewards will barely try; and this will lead to annoyance between the "play to win" and the "play for rewards" crowd. Sound familiar? Oh wait every WvW map is full of pipfarmers and as soon as the first teamfight is lost you have pipfarmers going AFK. "I hate PvP but I want the backpack". Add to this that most of these more casual players are not used to dealing with these feelings. They're not used to having to contribute, or having to deal with different opinions from other players.

>

> And obviously, that is what leads to toxicity. Which; because the issues aren't adressed because "wvw is a sideproject anyways", only escalates. Nowadays I just make my groups with a clear goal. If i want newbs I'll make a training raid, and if I have the time I do both in pve and wvw. But even in these training raids; I'm kicking any entitled special snowflakes straight out. Because the truth is, it's honestly super easy to find new players willing to put in the effort. It's just requires you weeding out a few bad apples.

>

> In my opinion, most of the toxicity comes because of casual players demanding everyone must cater to their style of play. You see I don't ask them to join my groups. I don't join their groups to grief them. I just want to play the game the way I enjoy. And because I enjoy to minmax and optimize, that makes me elitist and toxic. There's nothing else to it. So I embrace it and kick literally anyone who join my groups without meeting the requirements or if they demand I play different. And that includes WvW. If all these raiders are toxic, why is it players rather make groups for them than for the nice, friendly EVERYONE welcome casuals? So delusional.

>

> > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

>

> I agree - chat hostility is a symptom and if it becomes prevalent then it's a clear indicator of bigger issues. And truthfully, the toxicity in PvP and WvW have significantly increased while their veteran communities have drastically decreased. It's almost like an unhealthy gamemode which is struggling is less likely to be... fun? non toxic? Who'd have guessed. Who'd have guessed trying to get players who dislike PvP into PvP with rewards; without wanting to properly try would lead to players getting more annoyed and upset. And who'd have guessed that players getting upset would make more of these PvE carebears afk for the rewards just so they don't have to deal with other players.

>

> The friendliest community literally plays in a zone where it's nearly impossible to be harmed. Somehow they mistake this for "friendliness". The game is literally designed so you aren't griefed by other players nearby, super easy, can't steal or boycot others and griefing is almost impossible. Yet, and coordination that fails and players still flip their stuff. Somehow players manage to be so bad they actually make events harder by "helping" because they literally contribute less than they scale the event.

> Being friendly isn't "not having any tools or incentives to hurt others". Being friendly is having all the tools and the incentives to disagree and hurt others, but not doing it out of respect / friendliness / understanding. The exact opposite of this community, which is continuously separating it's playerbase because they dare play slightly different.

>

> Have I mentioned delusional? Players thinking fluff and positivism = friendly then as soon as someone does something they disagree with they flip out.

 

I worded my second sentence carefully. If you remove the challenges from this game it would no longer be game but walking simulator instead. And open world has always had that most of its content is boring, players are not slowed down by challenge but instead by movement speed and cooldown.

 

PvP should be the ticket to the game's long life. But it's a teamgame and thus must be managed correctly by the GMs. Again, the GMs are not doing this and this is where most of the verbal issues stem from.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > > >

> > > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > > >

> > > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > > >

> > > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> > >

> > > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> > >

> > > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> > >

> >

> > I disagree to some extent. You see, openworld PvE is a perfect example of how it "can work". You CAN create content that is doable by virtually anyone, despite the majority of players literally upscaling the bosses more than contributing, which is still quite succesful. Useless players can still feel useful, without any skill or investment which is something many players strive for. On top of that; all players have more or less the same goal. The goals of players with different preferences are alligned, not contradictory. This is achieved by making the content trivially simple; which is a major downside for anyone that enjoys a challenge and optimization. And different kinds of content are OK and healthy.

> >

> > Instead we have players who took the aspects they enjoy in open world PvE : which is mostly there being virtually no correlation between performance and rewards - and demanded this throughout the entire game. And anet can do that, if they want. By literally deleting everything challenging and competitive in the game, and continuously nerfing anything that is difficult. Like in openworld PvE. Remember when players complained orr was too difficult and it was massively nerfed across the board?? :trollface:

> >

> > The issue is these players expect this to go for the entire game. In fact, they DEMAND this to be true for all aspects of the game. And it is **NOT POSSIBLE** to unlike rewards, incentives AND alignment for PvP style modes. This is where I agree. You can't get competitive / challenging team content which rewards you (well) regardless of how you perform. That always leads to toxicity. In PvP, many players play to "win", to compete. Others play to be rewarded. Imagine winners and losers both get roughly the same rewards. That would make it so those who just want rewards will barely try; and this will lead to annoyance between the "play to win" and the "play for rewards" crowd. Sound familiar? Oh wait every WvW map is full of pipfarmers and as soon as the first teamfight is lost you have pipfarmers going AFK. "I hate PvP but I want the backpack". Add to this that most of these more casual players are not used to dealing with these feelings. They're not used to having to contribute, or having to deal with different opinions from other players.

> >

> > And obviously, that is what leads to toxicity. Which; because the issues aren't adressed because "wvw is a sideproject anyways", only escalates. Nowadays I just make my groups with a clear goal. If i want newbs I'll make a training raid, and if I have the time I do both in pve and wvw. But even in these training raids; I'm kicking any entitled special snowflakes straight out. Because the truth is, it's honestly super easy to find new players willing to put in the effort. It's just requires you weeding out a few bad apples.

> >

> > In my opinion, most of the toxicity comes because of casual players demanding everyone must cater to their style of play. You see I don't ask them to join my groups. I don't join their groups to grief them. I just want to play the game the way I enjoy. And because I enjoy to minmax and optimize, that makes me elitist and toxic. There's nothing else to it. So I embrace it and kick literally anyone who join my groups without meeting the requirements or if they demand I play different. And that includes WvW. If all these raiders are toxic, why is it players rather make groups for them than for the nice, friendly EVERYONE welcome casuals? So delusional.

> >

> > > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

> >

> > I agree - chat hostility is a symptom and if it becomes prevalent then it's a clear indicator of bigger issues. And truthfully, the toxicity in PvP and WvW have significantly increased while their veteran communities have drastically decreased. It's almost like an unhealthy gamemode which is struggling is less likely to be... fun? non toxic? Who'd have guessed. Who'd have guessed trying to get players who dislike PvP into PvP with rewards; without wanting to properly try would lead to players getting more annoyed and upset. And who'd have guessed that players getting upset would make more of these PvE carebears afk for the rewards just so they don't have to deal with other players.

> >

> > The friendliest community literally plays in a zone where it's nearly impossible to be harmed. Somehow they mistake this for "friendliness". The game is literally designed so you aren't griefed by other players nearby, super easy, can't steal or boycot others and griefing is almost impossible. Yet, and coordination that fails and players still flip their stuff. Somehow players manage to be so bad they actually make events harder by "helping" because they literally contribute less than they scale the event.

> > Being friendly isn't "not having any tools or incentives to hurt others". Being friendly is having all the tools and the incentives to disagree and hurt others, but not doing it out of respect / friendliness / understanding. The exact opposite of this community, which is continuously separating it's playerbase because they dare play slightly different.

> >

> > Have I mentioned delusional? Players thinking fluff and positivism = friendly then as soon as someone does something they disagree with they flip out.

>

> I worded my second sentence carefully. If you remove the challenges from this game it would no longer be game but walking simulator instead. And open world has always had that most of its content is boring, players are not slowed down by challenge but instead by movement speed and cooldown.

>

> PvP should be the ticket to the game's long life. But it's a teamgame and thus must be managed correctly by the GMs. Again, the GMs are not doing this and this is where most of the verbal issues stem from.

 

I completely agree, but for example (as i stated in my later post) current PvP PROMOTES toxicity.

Reward-baited PvE scrubs ("just here for the backpack" / "afk, farming gold" / ...) will obviously clash with other players. But that's the issue - players are rewarded for participating and not for winning. And for PvP, this isn't even too bad. I get WAY faster pips from winning and being high rated.

 

But for WvW? Half the players are afk in keep the moment they're not getting carried. That's just... well, promoting toxicity. Not saying anet shouldn't do more than that; like actually maintain these modes properly. Also, the more the dedicated population that plays these modes because they LOVE THESE MODES gets frustrated because of CLEAR ISSUES which are ignored, the worse long term. But appearantly that's still not understood.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> > > >

> > > > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> > > >

> > > > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I disagree to some extent. You see, openworld PvE is a perfect example of how it "can work". You CAN create content that is doable by virtually anyone, despite the majority of players literally upscaling the bosses more than contributing, which is still quite succesful. Useless players can still feel useful, without any skill or investment which is something many players strive for. On top of that; all players have more or less the same goal. The goals of players with different preferences are alligned, not contradictory. This is achieved by making the content trivially simple; which is a major downside for anyone that enjoys a challenge and optimization. And different kinds of content are OK and healthy.

> > >

> > > Instead we have players who took the aspects they enjoy in open world PvE : which is mostly there being virtually no correlation between performance and rewards - and demanded this throughout the entire game. And anet can do that, if they want. By literally deleting everything challenging and competitive in the game, and continuously nerfing anything that is difficult. Like in openworld PvE. Remember when players complained orr was too difficult and it was massively nerfed across the board?? :trollface:

> > >

> > > The issue is these players expect this to go for the entire game. In fact, they DEMAND this to be true for all aspects of the game. And it is **NOT POSSIBLE** to unlike rewards, incentives AND alignment for PvP style modes. This is where I agree. You can't get competitive / challenging team content which rewards you (well) regardless of how you perform. That always leads to toxicity. In PvP, many players play to "win", to compete. Others play to be rewarded. Imagine winners and losers both get roughly the same rewards. That would make it so those who just want rewards will barely try; and this will lead to annoyance between the "play to win" and the "play for rewards" crowd. Sound familiar? Oh wait every WvW map is full of pipfarmers and as soon as the first teamfight is lost you have pipfarmers going AFK. "I hate PvP but I want the backpack". Add to this that most of these more casual players are not used to dealing with these feelings. They're not used to having to contribute, or having to deal with different opinions from other players.

> > >

> > > And obviously, that is what leads to toxicity. Which; because the issues aren't adressed because "wvw is a sideproject anyways", only escalates. Nowadays I just make my groups with a clear goal. If i want newbs I'll make a training raid, and if I have the time I do both in pve and wvw. But even in these training raids; I'm kicking any entitled special snowflakes straight out. Because the truth is, it's honestly super easy to find new players willing to put in the effort. It's just requires you weeding out a few bad apples.

> > >

> > > In my opinion, most of the toxicity comes because of casual players demanding everyone must cater to their style of play. You see I don't ask them to join my groups. I don't join their groups to grief them. I just want to play the game the way I enjoy. And because I enjoy to minmax and optimize, that makes me elitist and toxic. There's nothing else to it. So I embrace it and kick literally anyone who join my groups without meeting the requirements or if they demand I play different. And that includes WvW. If all these raiders are toxic, why is it players rather make groups for them than for the nice, friendly EVERYONE welcome casuals? So delusional.

> > >

> > > > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

> > >

> > > I agree - chat hostility is a symptom and if it becomes prevalent then it's a clear indicator of bigger issues. And truthfully, the toxicity in PvP and WvW have significantly increased while their veteran communities have drastically decreased. It's almost like an unhealthy gamemode which is struggling is less likely to be... fun? non toxic? Who'd have guessed. Who'd have guessed trying to get players who dislike PvP into PvP with rewards; without wanting to properly try would lead to players getting more annoyed and upset. And who'd have guessed that players getting upset would make more of these PvE carebears afk for the rewards just so they don't have to deal with other players.

> > >

> > > The friendliest community literally plays in a zone where it's nearly impossible to be harmed. Somehow they mistake this for "friendliness". The game is literally designed so you aren't griefed by other players nearby, super easy, can't steal or boycot others and griefing is almost impossible. Yet, and coordination that fails and players still flip their stuff. Somehow players manage to be so bad they actually make events harder by "helping" because they literally contribute less than they scale the event.

> > > Being friendly isn't "not having any tools or incentives to hurt others". Being friendly is having all the tools and the incentives to disagree and hurt others, but not doing it out of respect / friendliness / understanding. The exact opposite of this community, which is continuously separating it's playerbase because they dare play slightly different.

> > >

> > > Have I mentioned delusional? Players thinking fluff and positivism = friendly then as soon as someone does something they disagree with they flip out.

> >

> > I worded my second sentence carefully. If you remove the challenges from this game it would no longer be game but walking simulator instead. And open world has always had that most of its content is boring, players are not slowed down by challenge but instead by movement speed and cooldown.

> >

> > PvP should be the ticket to the game's long life. But it's a teamgame and thus must be managed correctly by the GMs. Again, the GMs are not doing this and this is where most of the verbal issues stem from.

>

> I completely agree, but for example (as i stated in my later post) current PvP PROMOTES toxicity.

> Reward-baited PvE scrubs ("just here for the backpack" / "afk, farming gold" / ...) will obviously clash with other players. But that's the issue - players are rewarded for participating and not for winning. And for PvP, this isn't even too bad. I get WAY faster pips from winning and being high rated.

>

> But for WvW? Half the players are afk in keep the moment they're not getting carried. That's just... well, promoting toxicity. Not saying anet shouldn't do more than that; like actually maintain these modes properly. Also, the more the dedicated population that plays these modes because they LOVE THESE MODES gets frustrated because of CLEAR ISSUES which are ignored, the worse long term. But appearantly that's still not understood.

 

Reward baiting is common practice in every corner of this game. PvP itself doesn't promote competitive toxicity anymore, because by design anet succesfuly removed any competitive scene from the game, making in friendly and peaceful place for as long as you don't care about reward farming.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > > > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And @"Etheri.5406" picked to counter the ArcDPS statement because that was the open goal. It allowed him to disprove all of your assumptions with a single sentence.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes they can.

> > > >

> > > > And this pretty much signifies the behavior of every casual player. You received only a little heat and you shut down and stop putting in the necessary effort. Any valid point you had or may have has now flown out of the window because you made that post.

> > >

> > > Except you are only another customer, meaning you cannot make any definitive decisions or statements here that have any consequencial value for me :)

> >

> > I'm sure he meant valid as in, adding to the discussion providing further insight to your point or more arguments, not valid as a customer, player, gamer or human being.

>

> There's no point. Anet's not interested in changing anything. Raids are there to stay so are general design choices of other permanent content. This is 6 year old game, you know, it's not going to change.

 

So much fun discussing; if all the replies are generic copy-paste responses i've seen casual carebears use a 100 times.

"If you disagree, anet knows better"

"If you disagree, we're a majority so your opinion is irrelevant"

"If you disagree, it doesnt matter because ..."

"Yes I can"

"No I cannot"

 

Not a single coherent argument. Do you know what populism is?

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> > > > >

> > > > > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> > > > >

> > > > > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I disagree to some extent. You see, openworld PvE is a perfect example of how it "can work". You CAN create content that is doable by virtually anyone, despite the majority of players literally upscaling the bosses more than contributing, which is still quite succesful. Useless players can still feel useful, without any skill or investment which is something many players strive for. On top of that; all players have more or less the same goal. The goals of players with different preferences are alligned, not contradictory. This is achieved by making the content trivially simple; which is a major downside for anyone that enjoys a challenge and optimization. And different kinds of content are OK and healthy.

> > > >

> > > > Instead we have players who took the aspects they enjoy in open world PvE : which is mostly there being virtually no correlation between performance and rewards - and demanded this throughout the entire game. And anet can do that, if they want. By literally deleting everything challenging and competitive in the game, and continuously nerfing anything that is difficult. Like in openworld PvE. Remember when players complained orr was too difficult and it was massively nerfed across the board?? :trollface:

> > > >

> > > > The issue is these players expect this to go for the entire game. In fact, they DEMAND this to be true for all aspects of the game. And it is **NOT POSSIBLE** to unlike rewards, incentives AND alignment for PvP style modes. This is where I agree. You can't get competitive / challenging team content which rewards you (well) regardless of how you perform. That always leads to toxicity. In PvP, many players play to "win", to compete. Others play to be rewarded. Imagine winners and losers both get roughly the same rewards. That would make it so those who just want rewards will barely try; and this will lead to annoyance between the "play to win" and the "play for rewards" crowd. Sound familiar? Oh wait every WvW map is full of pipfarmers and as soon as the first teamfight is lost you have pipfarmers going AFK. "I hate PvP but I want the backpack". Add to this that most of these more casual players are not used to dealing with these feelings. They're not used to having to contribute, or having to deal with different opinions from other players.

> > > >

> > > > And obviously, that is what leads to toxicity. Which; because the issues aren't adressed because "wvw is a sideproject anyways", only escalates. Nowadays I just make my groups with a clear goal. If i want newbs I'll make a training raid, and if I have the time I do both in pve and wvw. But even in these training raids; I'm kicking any entitled special snowflakes straight out. Because the truth is, it's honestly super easy to find new players willing to put in the effort. It's just requires you weeding out a few bad apples.

> > > >

> > > > In my opinion, most of the toxicity comes because of casual players demanding everyone must cater to their style of play. You see I don't ask them to join my groups. I don't join their groups to grief them. I just want to play the game the way I enjoy. And because I enjoy to minmax and optimize, that makes me elitist and toxic. There's nothing else to it. So I embrace it and kick literally anyone who join my groups without meeting the requirements or if they demand I play different. And that includes WvW. If all these raiders are toxic, why is it players rather make groups for them than for the nice, friendly EVERYONE welcome casuals? So delusional.

> > > >

> > > > > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

> > > >

> > > > I agree - chat hostility is a symptom and if it becomes prevalent then it's a clear indicator of bigger issues. And truthfully, the toxicity in PvP and WvW have significantly increased while their veteran communities have drastically decreased. It's almost like an unhealthy gamemode which is struggling is less likely to be... fun? non toxic? Who'd have guessed. Who'd have guessed trying to get players who dislike PvP into PvP with rewards; without wanting to properly try would lead to players getting more annoyed and upset. And who'd have guessed that players getting upset would make more of these PvE carebears afk for the rewards just so they don't have to deal with other players.

> > > >

> > > > The friendliest community literally plays in a zone where it's nearly impossible to be harmed. Somehow they mistake this for "friendliness". The game is literally designed so you aren't griefed by other players nearby, super easy, can't steal or boycot others and griefing is almost impossible. Yet, and coordination that fails and players still flip their stuff. Somehow players manage to be so bad they actually make events harder by "helping" because they literally contribute less than they scale the event.

> > > > Being friendly isn't "not having any tools or incentives to hurt others". Being friendly is having all the tools and the incentives to disagree and hurt others, but not doing it out of respect / friendliness / understanding. The exact opposite of this community, which is continuously separating it's playerbase because they dare play slightly different.

> > > >

> > > > Have I mentioned delusional? Players thinking fluff and positivism = friendly then as soon as someone does something they disagree with they flip out.

> > >

> > > I worded my second sentence carefully. If you remove the challenges from this game it would no longer be game but walking simulator instead. And open world has always had that most of its content is boring, players are not slowed down by challenge but instead by movement speed and cooldown.

> > >

> > > PvP should be the ticket to the game's long life. But it's a teamgame and thus must be managed correctly by the GMs. Again, the GMs are not doing this and this is where most of the verbal issues stem from.

> >

> > I completely agree, but for example (as i stated in my later post) current PvP PROMOTES toxicity.

> > Reward-baited PvE scrubs ("just here for the backpack" / "afk, farming gold" / ...) will obviously clash with other players. But that's the issue - players are rewarded for participating and not for winning. And for PvP, this isn't even too bad. I get WAY faster pips from winning and being high rated.

> >

> > But for WvW? Half the players are afk in keep the moment they're not getting carried. That's just... well, promoting toxicity. Not saying anet shouldn't do more than that; like actually maintain these modes properly. Also, the more the dedicated population that plays these modes because they LOVE THESE MODES gets frustrated because of CLEAR ISSUES which are ignored, the worse long term. But appearantly that's still not understood.

>

> Reward baiting is common practice in every corner of this game. PvP itself doesn't promote competitive toxicity anymore, because by design anet succesfuly removed any competitive scene from the game, making in friendly and peaceful place for as long as you don't care about reward farming.

 

Do you actually play PvP? It's far more toxic than it used to be; mostly at the PvE-infested bronze / silver / gold / low plat ratings. Meanwhile high end is troll and memesy, but pretty chill overall. Hard to flame players if you get them every 3 games and they'll just grief you back.

 

Toxicity as in : low end players hating on eachother while none of them grasp the game, and half of them wanna win while the other half are ready to AFK at the first loss because playing while losing is too much effort for the rewards.

 

But yeah; you avoid toxicity by trying to ensure players who disagree with you leave. That's how you become friendly and in agreement.

 

Same in WvW. Most of the pop that used to play it is gone; and it's not friendlier for it. It's WAY more elitist and toxic. Wanna go check fractal LFG? ;)

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > > > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I disagree to some extent. You see, openworld PvE is a perfect example of how it "can work". You CAN create content that is doable by virtually anyone, despite the majority of players literally upscaling the bosses more than contributing, which is still quite succesful. Useless players can still feel useful, without any skill or investment which is something many players strive for. On top of that; all players have more or less the same goal. The goals of players with different preferences are alligned, not contradictory. This is achieved by making the content trivially simple; which is a major downside for anyone that enjoys a challenge and optimization. And different kinds of content are OK and healthy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Instead we have players who took the aspects they enjoy in open world PvE : which is mostly there being virtually no correlation between performance and rewards - and demanded this throughout the entire game. And anet can do that, if they want. By literally deleting everything challenging and competitive in the game, and continuously nerfing anything that is difficult. Like in openworld PvE. Remember when players complained orr was too difficult and it was massively nerfed across the board?? :trollface:

> > > > >

> > > > > The issue is these players expect this to go for the entire game. In fact, they DEMAND this to be true for all aspects of the game. And it is **NOT POSSIBLE** to unlike rewards, incentives AND alignment for PvP style modes. This is where I agree. You can't get competitive / challenging team content which rewards you (well) regardless of how you perform. That always leads to toxicity. In PvP, many players play to "win", to compete. Others play to be rewarded. Imagine winners and losers both get roughly the same rewards. That would make it so those who just want rewards will barely try; and this will lead to annoyance between the "play to win" and the "play for rewards" crowd. Sound familiar? Oh wait every WvW map is full of pipfarmers and as soon as the first teamfight is lost you have pipfarmers going AFK. "I hate PvP but I want the backpack". Add to this that most of these more casual players are not used to dealing with these feelings. They're not used to having to contribute, or having to deal with different opinions from other players.

> > > > >

> > > > > And obviously, that is what leads to toxicity. Which; because the issues aren't adressed because "wvw is a sideproject anyways", only escalates. Nowadays I just make my groups with a clear goal. If i want newbs I'll make a training raid, and if I have the time I do both in pve and wvw. But even in these training raids; I'm kicking any entitled special snowflakes straight out. Because the truth is, it's honestly super easy to find new players willing to put in the effort. It's just requires you weeding out a few bad apples.

> > > > >

> > > > > In my opinion, most of the toxicity comes because of casual players demanding everyone must cater to their style of play. You see I don't ask them to join my groups. I don't join their groups to grief them. I just want to play the game the way I enjoy. And because I enjoy to minmax and optimize, that makes me elitist and toxic. There's nothing else to it. So I embrace it and kick literally anyone who join my groups without meeting the requirements or if they demand I play different. And that includes WvW. If all these raiders are toxic, why is it players rather make groups for them than for the nice, friendly EVERYONE welcome casuals? So delusional.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree - chat hostility is a symptom and if it becomes prevalent then it's a clear indicator of bigger issues. And truthfully, the toxicity in PvP and WvW have significantly increased while their veteran communities have drastically decreased. It's almost like an unhealthy gamemode which is struggling is less likely to be... fun? non toxic? Who'd have guessed. Who'd have guessed trying to get players who dislike PvP into PvP with rewards; without wanting to properly try would lead to players getting more annoyed and upset. And who'd have guessed that players getting upset would make more of these PvE carebears afk for the rewards just so they don't have to deal with other players.

> > > > >

> > > > > The friendliest community literally plays in a zone where it's nearly impossible to be harmed. Somehow they mistake this for "friendliness". The game is literally designed so you aren't griefed by other players nearby, super easy, can't steal or boycot others and griefing is almost impossible. Yet, and coordination that fails and players still flip their stuff. Somehow players manage to be so bad they actually make events harder by "helping" because they literally contribute less than they scale the event.

> > > > > Being friendly isn't "not having any tools or incentives to hurt others". Being friendly is having all the tools and the incentives to disagree and hurt others, but not doing it out of respect / friendliness / understanding. The exact opposite of this community, which is continuously separating it's playerbase because they dare play slightly different.

> > > > >

> > > > > Have I mentioned delusional? Players thinking fluff and positivism = friendly then as soon as someone does something they disagree with they flip out.

> > > >

> > > > I worded my second sentence carefully. If you remove the challenges from this game it would no longer be game but walking simulator instead. And open world has always had that most of its content is boring, players are not slowed down by challenge but instead by movement speed and cooldown.

> > > >

> > > > PvP should be the ticket to the game's long life. But it's a teamgame and thus must be managed correctly by the GMs. Again, the GMs are not doing this and this is where most of the verbal issues stem from.

> > >

> > > I completely agree, but for example (as i stated in my later post) current PvP PROMOTES toxicity.

> > > Reward-baited PvE scrubs ("just here for the backpack" / "afk, farming gold" / ...) will obviously clash with other players. But that's the issue - players are rewarded for participating and not for winning. And for PvP, this isn't even too bad. I get WAY faster pips from winning and being high rated.

> > >

> > > But for WvW? Half the players are afk in keep the moment they're not getting carried. That's just... well, promoting toxicity. Not saying anet shouldn't do more than that; like actually maintain these modes properly. Also, the more the dedicated population that plays these modes because they LOVE THESE MODES gets frustrated because of CLEAR ISSUES which are ignored, the worse long term. But appearantly that's still not understood.

> >

> > Reward baiting is common practice in every corner of this game. PvP itself doesn't promote competitive toxicity anymore, because by design anet succesfuly removed any competitive scene from the game, making in friendly and peaceful place for as long as you don't care about reward farming.

>

> Do you actually play PvP? It's far more toxic than it used to be; mostly at the PvE-infested bronze / silver / gold / low plat ratings. Meanwhile high end is troll and memesy, but pretty chill overall. Hard to flame players if you get them every 3 games and they'll just grief you back.

>

> Toxicity as in : low end players hating on eachother while none of them grasp the game, and half of them wanna win while the other half are ready to AFK at the first loss because playing while losing is too much effort for the rewards.

>

> But yeah; you avoid toxicity by trying to ensure players who disagree with you leave. That's how you become friendly and in agreement.

>

> Same in WvW. Most of the pop that used to play it is gone; and it's not friendlier for it. It's WAY more elitist and toxic. Wanna go check fractal LFG? ;)

>

 

pvp is toxic because of rewards, not mechanics, anyone who cared and contributed to old competitively toxic scene left long time ago

[lokh.2695]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > > > Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.

> > > > > > > > (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

> > > >

> > > > Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.

> > > > Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

> > > >

> > > > My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

> > > >

> > > > On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

> > >

> > > Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

> >

> > No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

> >

> > If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

> >

>

> I disagree to some extent. You see, openworld PvE is a perfect example of how it "can work". You CAN create content that is doable by virtually anyone, despite the majority of players literally upscaling the bosses more than contributing, which is still quite succesful. Useless players can still feel useful, without any skill or investment which is something many players strive for. On top of that; all players have more or less the same goal. The goals of players with different preferences are alligned, not contradictory. This is achieved by making the content trivially simple; which is a major downside for anyone that enjoys a challenge and optimization. And different kinds of content are OK and healthy.

>

> Instead we have players who took the aspects they enjoy in open world PvE : which is mostly there being virtually no correlation between performance and rewards - and demanded this throughout the entire game. And anet can do that, if they want. By literally deleting everything challenging and competitive in the game, and continuously nerfing anything that is difficult. Like in openworld PvE. Remember when players complained orr was too difficult and it was massively nerfed across the board?? :trollface:

>

> The issue is these players expect this to go for the entire game. In fact, they DEMAND this to be true for all aspects of the game. And it is **NOT POSSIBLE** to unlike rewards, incentives AND alignment for PvP style modes. This is where I agree. You can't get competitive / challenging team content which rewards you (well) regardless of how you perform. That always leads to toxicity. In PvP, many players play to "win", to compete. Others play to be rewarded. Imagine winners and losers both get roughly the same rewards. That would make it so those who just want rewards will barely try; and this will lead to annoyance between the "play to win" and the "play for rewards" crowd. Sound familiar? Oh wait every WvW map is full of pipfarmers and as soon as the first teamfight is lost you have pipfarmers going AFK. "I hate PvP but I want the backpack". Add to this that most of these more casual players are not used to dealing with these feelings. They're not used to having to contribute, or having to deal with different opinions from other players.

>

> And obviously, that is what leads to toxicity. Which; because the issues aren't adressed because "wvw is a sideproject anyways", only escalates. Nowadays I just make my groups with a clear goal. If i want newbs I'll make a training raid, and if I have the time I do both in pve and wvw. But even in these training raids; I'm kicking any entitled special snowflakes straight out. Because the truth is, it's honestly super easy to find new players willing to put in the effort. It's just requires you weeding out a few bad apples.

>

> In my opinion, most of the toxicity comes because of casual players demanding everyone must cater to their style of play. You see I don't ask them to join my groups. I don't join their groups to grief them. I just want to play the game the way I enjoy. And because I enjoy to minmax and optimize, that makes me elitist and toxic. There's nothing else to it. So I embrace it and kick literally anyone who join my groups without meeting the requirements or if they demand I play different. And that includes WvW. If all these raiders are toxic, why is it players rather make groups for them than for the nice, friendly EVERYONE welcome casuals? So delusional.

>

> > Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

>

> I agree - chat hostility is a symptom and if it becomes prevalent then it's a clear indicator of bigger issues. And truthfully, the toxicity in PvP and WvW have significantly increased while their veteran communities have drastically decreased. It's almost like an unhealthy gamemode which is struggling is less likely to be... fun? non toxic? Who'd have guessed. Who'd have guessed trying to get players who dislike PvP into PvP with rewards; without wanting to properly try would lead to players getting more annoyed and upset. And who'd have guessed that players getting upset would make more of these PvE carebears afk for the rewards just so they don't have to deal with other players.

>

> The friendliest community literally plays in a zone where it's nearly impossible to be harmed. Somehow they mistake this for "friendliness". The game is literally designed so you aren't griefed by other players nearby, super easy, can't steal or boycot others and griefing is almost impossible. Yet, and coordination that fails and players still flip their stuff. Somehow players manage to be so bad they actually make events harder by "helping" because they literally contribute less than they scale the event.

> Being friendly isn't "not having any tools or incentives to hurt others". Being friendly is having all the tools and the incentives to disagree and hurt others, but not doing it out of respect / friendliness / understanding. The exact opposite of this community, which is continuously separating it's playerbase because they dare play slightly different.

>

> Have I mentioned delusional? Players thinking fluff and positivism = friendly then as soon as someone does something they disagree with they flip out.

 

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> Well OP, in your point 4 about toxicity, I'm not sure I agree that wanting group content being soloable with the exact same rewards is being toxic. I agree that grouping should be rewarded more but that's not about being toxic or not.

>

That alone for yourself or any individual is not toxic at all, it can't be because you're not interacting with any other persons in-game in that situation. A player can choose to play this like a single player game. The player has to be aware that as an MMO, there might be content that is not designed for solo play. The player has to decide at this point, if he/she wants to either skip the content because of the challenge presented or participate in it despite it. I'm all fine with that. Either of decisions has its ups and downs. Chose a) and you don't have to bother with content you're not into but you'll miss out on the shiny; chose b) and you get whatever reward has struck your eye but you should also accomodate to the content you are playing.

Toxicity comes into play when either an "elitist" thinks that anyone should do at least 20k dps and Anet should only develop challenging content or when a "casual" thinks that everyone who does the maths or is at least interested in improving is a tryhard rotabot and that Anet should exclusively cater to their views of the game. Both are human nature where anet can't change much.

It's all about the shinies in the end. Rewards, balancing and content are what ANet can influence. These also form what players expect of the game and what they wish for. Players are greedy and that's not limited to either side of the scale. "Elitists" feel that lesser skilled players damage their loot per time ratio by not contributing enough, "Casuals" feel left behind and cheated out of rewards that are or at least seem unobtainable. Entitlement also is not an issue limited to either side, "Elitists" feel entiteled to a smooth run for putting in the work while "Casuals" feel entitled to endgame that is still easy because the rest of PvE is. (I think the pain barrier, the point where more casual players considere content hard enough to get vocal and frustrated about it on the forums f.e., is somewhere between HoT open world and Amala on t3 fractals)

[Rasta.2371]

So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

 

In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

efg

In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

>I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it.

 

>I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

 

As usual, you won't even respect other players and how they want to play but you're still making demands and telling them what to do.

Then you're suprised there's more elitism and toxicity. Meanwhile you're faking KP, fucking up then suprised players call you out on it.

 

Have you considered you're part of the problem?

[lokh.2695]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

> So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

>

> In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> efg

> In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

 

Same experiences here.

But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"lokh.2695" said:

> > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

> >

> > In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> > efg

> > In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

>

> Same experiences here.

> But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

 

I do a bit of both, i have the lnhb title and chat link code the essences on top of being decent at 99 and 100 cm (i usually dont die on my spellbreaker). Some days i join the elitist team, some days i forego the 99 and 100 cm and just do t4's with casuals which is far more enjoyable. If you are good at the 99 and 100 cm fights i dont see anything wrong with linking chat code to get in to the team.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> >I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it.

>

> >I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

>

> As usual, you won't even respect other players and how they want to play but you're still making demands and telling them what to do.

> Then you're suprised there's more elitism and toxicity. Meanwhile you're faking KP, kitten up then suprised players call you out on it.

>

> Have you considered you're part of the problem?

 

fyi i clear the 99 and 100 cm absolutely no problem, 99% of the time without dying, i have lhnb title and about 30 essences, i usually link a stack of 200. I am in agreement with people that want to clear it fast, you can kindly kick people w/o being toxic.

[Ashabhi.1365]

My two coppers' worth:

 

I am a casual player. There is no way in hell I would try to join a seasoned party. It's not because they're "elitists" but because as a casual player, I know deep in my gaming heart that I don't have the skills necessary to be a part of their team. I wouldn't do that to them. On the other hand, I am not a complete dolt either. I am perfectly capable of surviving and spanking enemies. I don't deserve to be treated like I am dirt just to allow someone to stroke their own ego.

 

The content shouldn't change. There should be things that I am unable to do with my current skill level. I don't want ANet to "dumb down" the dungeons and fractals so that I can compete with the ultra kitten min/maxxer who has been running hardcore mode since creation. The issue that I do have however is that Mr. kitten Ultra Min/Maxxer needs to hold his tongue. There is no reason for him (or her) to treat me like spam just because I don't spend 24 hours a day thinking about how I can eke out one more point of DPS. Be elite. Be great at what you do. You don't have to include me for me to be satisfied with the game. Just don't be a kitten about it.

 

EDIT: Awww how cute!... My post had kittens!

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

> > >

> > > In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> > > efg

> > > In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

> >

> > Same experiences here.

> > But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

>

> I do a bit of both, i have the lnhb title and chat link code the essences on top of being decent at 99 and 100 cm (i usually dont die on my spellbreaker). Some days i join the elitist team, some days i forego the 99 and 100 cm and just do t4's with casuals which is far more enjoyable. If you are good at the 99 and 100 cm fights i dont see anything wrong with linking chat code to get in to the team.

 

If you were good; there would be 0 toxicity towards you. It's that simple.

As an avid raider, everyone thinks they're "good enough" and almost nobody does better than "the bare minimum to complete the content". Not dying on spellbreaker - whooptedy doo. If only surviving while others killed stuff was your job.

 

If you're GOOD then people won't be TOXIC for doing shit wrong. If you're FAKING kp, then stating they're TOO TOXIC (and should just kick???) then you're the problem.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

> > > >

> > > > In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> > > > efg

> > > > In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

> > >

> > > Same experiences here.

> > > But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

> >

> > I do a bit of both, i have the lnhb title and chat link code the essences on top of being decent at 99 and 100 cm (i usually dont die on my spellbreaker). Some days i join the elitist team, some days i forego the 99 and 100 cm and just do t4's with casuals which is far more enjoyable. If you are good at the 99 and 100 cm fights i dont see anything wrong with linking chat code to get in to the team.

>

> If you were good; there would be 0 toxicity towards you. It's that simple.

> As an avid raider, everyone thinks they're "good enough" and almost nobody does better than "the bare minimum to complete the content". Not dying on spellbreaker - whooptedy doo. If only surviving while others killed stuff was your job.

>

> If you're GOOD then people won't be TOXIC for doing kitten wrong. If you're FAKING kp, then stating they're TOO TOXIC (and should just kick???) then you're the problem.

 

So my question is how do you GET good. You need experience. So fake it till you make it. And yes i fully am aware people will kick and be mad, i dont blame them i just join the next group until i learn the encounter. I dont use ark dps but if you are splitting hairs about the difference between 25k and 28k dps then you deserve every troll screws over your group and steals your time tbh.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Ashabhi.1365" said:

> My two coppers' worth:

>

> I am a casual player. There is no way in hell I would try to join a seasoned party. It's not because they're "elitists" but because as a casual player, I know deep in my gaming heart that I don't have the skills necessary to be a part of their team. I wouldn't do that to them. On the other hand, I am not a complete dolt either. I am perfectly capable of surviving and spanking enemies. I don't deserve to be treated like I am dirt just to allow someone to stroke their own ego.

>

> The content shouldn't change. There should be things that I am unable to do with my current skill level. I don't want ANet to "dumb down" the dungeons and fractals so that I can compete with the ultra kitten min/maxxer who has been running hardcore mode since creation. The issue that I do have however is that Mr. kitten Ultra Min/Maxxer needs to hold his tongue. THere is no reason for him (or her) to treat me like spam just because I don't spend 24 hours a day thinking about how I can eke out one more point of DPS. Be elite. Be great at what you do. You don't have to include me for me to be satisfied with the game. Just don't be a kitten about it.

>

> EDIT: Awww how cute!... My post had kittens!

 

Imagine you're a hardcore player that wants to just play, like you suggest, without flaming anyone. I'd like that.

 

I do my guildraid in WvW? They join.

I do public raid in WvW asking for builds? They join.

I make group in PvE raids? They join.

I literally ask for XXX class and they'll still ask me to join on YYY; and if I say no flame me for it too.

They'll fake LI / KP / any requirements they can fake just to get in, so they can leech.

 

Are you suprised we're being more toxic and elitist? We CANNOT just do our own thing unless we only raid with our own 10 man groups; and for WvW it can't even be done. We're constantly having casuals do the opposite from you; they demand or try to join any way they can because they want the rewards. And then even if we try to teach them how to do it; they'll flame us, call us metaslaves and toxic... While asking to join and for us to be nicer, of course.

 

Even this thread "oh yeah I just fake KP and hmh; they should really be friendlier". Yeah. I'm sure they should.

 

I would like to be friendlier in WvW. But if I'm friendly to them and "nicely" ask players to let us raid on our own; they flame us. So we flame them, get them killed, throw balista's on them and jump until they alt F4. It appears toxicity is more effective than asking nicely. Sorry!

 

In my experience, toxic elitists are the ones who make their own groups with their own requirements and it's casuals trying to join them 24/7 without meeting the requirements; while complaining about both the requirements AND the elitism.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > > So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

> > > > >

> > > > > In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> > > > > efg

> > > > > In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

> > > >

> > > > Same experiences here.

> > > > But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

> > >

> > > I do a bit of both, i have the lnhb title and chat link code the essences on top of being decent at 99 and 100 cm (i usually dont die on my spellbreaker). Some days i join the elitist team, some days i forego the 99 and 100 cm and just do t4's with casuals which is far more enjoyable. If you are good at the 99 and 100 cm fights i dont see anything wrong with linking chat code to get in to the team.

> >

> > If you were good; there would be 0 toxicity towards you. It's that simple.

> > As an avid raider, everyone thinks they're "good enough" and almost nobody does better than "the bare minimum to complete the content". Not dying on spellbreaker - whooptedy doo. If only surviving while others killed stuff was your job.

> >

> > If you're GOOD then people won't be TOXIC for doing kitten wrong. If you're FAKING kp, then stating they're TOO TOXIC (and should just kick???) then you're the problem.

>

> So my question is how do you GET good. You need experience. So fake it till you make it. And yes i fully am aware people will kick and be mad, i dont blame them i just join the next group until i learn the encounter. I dont use ark dps but if you are splitting hairs about the difference between 25k and 28k dps then you deserve every troll screws over your group and steals your time tbh.

 

I think the only issue lies with people who do 15k, not 25k DPS ;)

 

 

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > > So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

> > > > >

> > > > > In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> > > > > efg

> > > > > In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

> > > >

> > > > Same experiences here.

> > > > But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

> > >

> > > I do a bit of both, i have the lnhb title and chat link code the essences on top of being decent at 99 and 100 cm (i usually dont die on my spellbreaker). Some days i join the elitist team, some days i forego the 99 and 100 cm and just do t4's with casuals which is far more enjoyable. If you are good at the 99 and 100 cm fights i dont see anything wrong with linking chat code to get in to the team.

> >

> > If you were good; there would be 0 toxicity towards you. It's that simple.

> > As an avid raider, everyone thinks they're "good enough" and almost nobody does better than "the bare minimum to complete the content". Not dying on spellbreaker - whooptedy doo. If only surviving while others killed stuff was your job.

> >

> > If you're GOOD then people won't be TOXIC for doing kitten wrong. If you're FAKING kp, then stating they're TOO TOXIC (and should just kick???) then you're the problem.

>

> So my question is how do you GET good. You need experience. So fake it till you make it. And yes i fully am aware people will kick and be mad, i dont blame them i just join the next group until i learn the encounter.

 

You don't get to join the group. And as with all groups, if you can't you make your own.

 

OH SHIT I CAN MAKE MY OWN GROUP?

Or you can WAIT for a training group. Or join a guild. Or ask players. Or pm them nicely.

 

But nope; that's all too much effort. Much easier to learn by getting hardcarried by experienced players while faking it. Then cry about toxicity you're heavily promoting. Lets blame THEM for toxicity while you very clearly do not care to respect their wishes. You care about yourself; not the group or others. "Friendly casuals".

 

Your attitude is why I don't bother with pugs who rant and demand shit in WvW anymore. I don't care how good the pugs are or why they can't do what I ask. The moment they go around making demands expecting shit to be easy and served by experienced players on a silver platter, they're getting kicked. And if they then throw a tantrum, I add them to friendlist, give them "permakick" nicknames and kick them from every single open raid hosted by my guild. The only thing you do, is make low KP groups "shit" so good playres ask for even more KP.

 

You can learn the same way as everyone else. By making groups for new players and actually learning how to carry your own weight. By putting in some effort. Or you can deal with the toxicity YOU are promoting. Not anyone in your group. Not a single elitist. You. You're the one who refuses to respect their wishes and thinks they're some kind of magic exception which deserves the loot, rewards and high end gameplay without the effort. And I'm sure you're as good as 200 kp players. No doubt about it. :trollface:

 

"?! I have to make my own group?? omagod that's not casual friendly".

[Rasta.2371]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > > > So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> > > > > > efg

> > > > > > In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

> > > > >

> > > > > Same experiences here.

> > > > > But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

> > > >

> > > > I do a bit of both, i have the lnhb title and chat link code the essences on top of being decent at 99 and 100 cm (i usually dont die on my spellbreaker). Some days i join the elitist team, some days i forego the 99 and 100 cm and just do t4's with casuals which is far more enjoyable. If you are good at the 99 and 100 cm fights i dont see anything wrong with linking chat code to get in to the team.

> > >

> > > If you were good; there would be 0 toxicity towards you. It's that simple.

> > > As an avid raider, everyone thinks they're "good enough" and almost nobody does better than "the bare minimum to complete the content". Not dying on spellbreaker - whooptedy doo. If only surviving while others killed stuff was your job.

> > >

> > > If you're GOOD then people won't be TOXIC for doing kitten wrong. If you're FAKING kp, then stating they're TOO TOXIC (and should just kick???) then you're the problem.

> >

> > So my question is how do you GET good. You need experience. So fake it till you make it. And yes i fully am aware people will kick and be mad, i dont blame them i just join the next group until i learn the encounter. I dont use ark dps but if you are splitting hairs about the difference between 25k and 28k dps then you deserve every troll screws over your group and steals your time tbh.

>

> I think the only issue lies with people who do 15k, not 25k DPS ;)

>

>

 

I had a group recently where i was doing the same dps as the Core power banner warrior. He had 7% increase from fractal god title. Is this an isolated occurance when someone is crying about you doing the same dps and they have a 7% base increase+ 2-3k from smoother play due to experience? If you people split hairs for ridiculous shit like this you can't claim to be any less extreme than some newbie whining 'please carry me im entitled to your time'

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Khailyn.6248" said:

> While this is an in depth (and somewhat lengthy) explanation of what Elitism is, it has existed in different forms over the course of this game and any other where people are playing together with a common goal. It may be more fueled by being in a rush (far be it for a game to take time to play rather than treat it like a job), or used as a means to feel superior to others (best build and best comp is best). As much as I love my druid, adding druid and chronomancer have made the matter worse and I feel we are too far down the rabbit hole for this ever to change.

> While you have the unique position of having your raiders being more polite than your casuals, based on my experience and from reading many posts on this subject, it tends to be the opposite. Raiders being overly aggressive or oppressive to force others to adhere to their time schedule, gear setup, trait lines or even profession choice etc. It is really disheartening that his has extended to fractals as well, but as you said, there were speed runs prior to the addition of raids. Even in a game like Warcraft, this phenomenon. also exists. You need X healers, Y tanks and Z dps. Based on encounter, one class may be excluded b/c of balance or mechanics they'll take a DK rather than a Warrior, a Druid rather than a Priest.

> It may seem seem like giving up on a problem that will never go away, but the only solution is to create your own groups with those that think the same way you do. That will have a bit more patience and understanding because you know that those 'elitists' are likely the same ones clearing raids and T4 fractals each week and are very very unlikely to change. For the rest of us, game play experience and/or is more important than rate of which you can gain loot.

> As for the Raid aspect, since you touched on it, I'm in the category of wishing AN would make an easier version of raids, not b/c of gear/difficulty but due to how much story content the average player is missing out on. Raids are the only content where players can be locked out of content by other players.

 

Honestly, the story kinda gets buried in the rush as well. I got more insight on what was happening from the cut scene in Bloodstone Fen than from doing Raids (also a lot of people do raids out of order, for example escort is below dungeon difficulty, so a lot of people start there).

I wouldn't be against a Story Mode for Raids. Something built more for the story, with a bit more cut scenes (even if it's the old fashion ones) and a token gold/magnetite reward just for the sake of it.

Rewards, and maybe the whole mode should be one-time only as well.

 

Anyway although it was more exposition than anything else, i do agree with what the OP said. Most people on the extreme-casual side will call me an elitist because i'm for "Meta-builds" even in T4+recomended runs. Most people that actually know me, will tell you that i generally don't follow or advise to strictly follow meta-builds from a page.

I'll tell people to look at a build and adapt from there. Sure if i'm in a hurry, i'll copy a build from a website, read the explanations to know what's the important part of it and i'll change out the parts that don't fit my style only later.

My issue is less with a strict meta range, but more with people that don't contribute to the group's performance.

My issue is with "DPS" players doing less dps than the Cleric/Magi/Commander/Minstrel/Harrier's supports. Or with "support" players focusing too much on DPS and then people who are expecting to be healed through a mechanic all end up dead.

 

So yeah, my issue is less with not following a meta, but more not following with that unspoken agreement that if you join a group to fill a certain slot, then you need to do a certain job, otherwise you're just leeching of the group, and no one likes parasites.

 

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > @"lokh.2695" said:

> > > > > @"Rasta.2371" said:

> > > > > So my experience in fractal tier 75 and up are the following ;

> > > > >

> > > > > In groups titled ' Daily t4s' along those lines (not requiring anything specific) usually do reasonably well and I would argue are pretty open to casual play. Sometimes you fail, but rarely do i see excessive toxicity in these kinds of dailies.

> > > > > efg

> > > > > In the LFG OVER 9000 KP+lnhb lgbtqqh2abcdefg+++ the players want specifically to do their daily grind of 99 and 100 cm and then daily+ recs. If all 5 members meet their screening and the run goes well you will shave off 20 min off the t4's and then get 99 and 100 cms done too. I started getting into these pug groups by copying chat link code, just like raids. Basically fake it till you make it. Also these groups are usually more toxic if things go badly. I wish these people were more polite to newbies instead of raging and kindly explain that they want 5 seasoned players to quickly clear the content instead of salt and name calling.

> > > >

> > > > Same experiences here.

> > > > But to be fair, by opening a "T4, Recs, CM, p+f, exp 50kp"-lfg, the group lets you know what they want beforehand. I expect toxicity in these groups that's why I don't join them. Joining them then asking them to be friendlier to newer players is part of the problem. They don't want to teach and it's fine, and as long as they let ppl know in the lfg, it's great. Veterans are not obliged to teaching new players, it would be nice and it happens, but it has to happen voluntarily, as it happens in guilds that teach ppl how to do fractals or raids. Just as much as I, or you I assume, prefer to have a run that takes 30min longer but was chill and all over a run that's done 30min faster but was stressfull with aweful ppl flaming in mapchat, the "elitists" have the right to prefer the smooth streamlined run with all the skips and glitches.

> > >

> > > I do a bit of both, i have the lnhb title and chat link code the essences on top of being decent at 99 and 100 cm (i usually dont die on my spellbreaker). Some days i join the elitist team, some days i forego the 99 and 100 cm and just do t4's with casuals which is far more enjoyable. If you are good at the 99 and 100 cm fights i dont see anything wrong with linking chat code to get in to the team.

> >

> > If you were good; there would be 0 toxicity towards you. It's that simple.

> > As an avid raider, everyone thinks they're "good enough" and almost nobody does better than "the bare minimum to complete the content". Not dying on spellbreaker - whooptedy doo. If only surviving while others killed stuff was your job.

> >

> > If you're GOOD then people won't be TOXIC for doing kitten wrong. If you're FAKING kp, then stating they're TOO TOXIC (and should just kick???) then you're the problem.

>

> So my question is how do you GET good. You need experience. So fake it till you make it. And yes i fully am aware people will kick and be mad, i dont blame them i just join the next group until i learn the encounter. I dont use ark dps but if you are splitting hairs about the difference between 25k and 28k dps then you deserve every troll screws over your group and steals your time tbh.

 

You really think plyers are toxic about 25 vs 28k dps? I've NEVER seen toxicity over 10% and I've done thousands of raids.

In my experience, the difference between groups that CLEAR (!!!!!!!!) between 100 and 500+ li or static groups is more than 100% in group DPS.

Literally, the 500 li group does twice the damage. If the boss uses "burst phases", it's even much worse. If the boss allows you to skip extra mechanics, that further shaves time off. And for many bosses; that doesn't make the boss twice as fast but even much more.

 

You should try ARCDPS. The difference between high end raiders and casual openworld pugs is closer to 500%-1000%; not 10%.

[ROMANG.1903]

I think the issue about raid or fractal elitism is that you get forced to play in a way you don't enjoy to play. I don't mean that you'll have to take another elite skill or change one trait for a specific boss, I mean that if you don't play a very specific build (or even a specific class!) you are not considered worth inviting to the raid. I don't want to learn chronomancer or druid just to be able to join a raid. And even if I did, I still have to stuff them. And where do I get all the bag slots I had on my main back? I will never have enough space in my inventory just with the base thing. And let's admit I just change from DPS to healer on my main. I have to change all of my stats, with a pretty high cost. Which I'll have to do again if I wish to do solo content or DPS again. No thanks.

 

In others words, making a reroll just to raid is both unfun and too long, too hard. Of course some builds are going to be better than others, but having at least 2 viable DPS builds, and perhaps a support build, for each class, which we could change depending on our preferences without giving up too mutch on its efficiency, would already be a great improvement. Also, niche meta builds should be looked at. For example, giving alacrity and quickness options to others classes than chronomancer, or making these boons less game-changing, would push players to be more flexible in their compositions.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Ashabhi.1365" said:

> > My two coppers' worth:

> >

> > I am a casual player. There is no way in hell I would try to join a seasoned party. It's not because they're "elitists" but because as a casual player, I know deep in my gaming heart that I don't have the skills necessary to be a part of their team. I wouldn't do that to them. On the other hand, I am not a complete dolt either. I am perfectly capable of surviving and spanking enemies. I don't deserve to be treated like I am dirt just to allow someone to stroke their own ego.

> >

> > The content shouldn't change. There should be things that I am unable to do with my current skill level. I don't want ANet to "dumb down" the dungeons and fractals so that I can compete with the ultra kitten min/maxxer who has been running hardcore mode since creation. The issue that I do have however is that Mr. kitten Ultra Min/Maxxer needs to hold his tongue. THere is no reason for him (or her) to treat me like spam just because I don't spend 24 hours a day thinking about how I can eke out one more point of DPS. Be elite. Be great at what you do. You don't have to include me for me to be satisfied with the game. Just don't be a kitten about it.

> >

> > EDIT: Awww how cute!... My post had kittens!

>

> Imagine you're a hardcore player that wants to just play, like you suggest, without flaming anyone. I'd like that.

>

> I do my guildraid in WvW? They join.

> I do public raid in WvW asking for builds? They join.

> I make group in PvE raids? They join.

> I literally ask for XXX class and they'll still ask me to join on YYY; and if I say no flame me for it too.

> They'll fake LI / KP / any requirements they can fake just to get in, so they can leech.

>

> Are you suprised we're being more toxic and elitist? We CANNOT just do our own thing unless we only raid with our own 10 man groups; and for WvW it can't even be done. We're constantly having casuals do the opposite from you; they demand or try to join any way they can because they want the rewards. And then even if we try to teach them how to do it; they'll flame us, call us metaslaves and toxic... While asking to join and for us to be nicer, of course.

>

> Even this thread "oh yeah I just fake KP and hmh; they should really be friendlier". Yeah. I'm sure they should.

>

> I would like to be friendlier in WvW. But if I'm friendly to them and "nicely" ask players to let us raid on our own; they flame us. So we flame them, get them killed, throw balista's on them and jump until they alt F4. It appears toxicity is more effective than asking nicely. Sorry!

>

> In my experience, toxic elitists are the ones who make their own groups with their own requirements and it's casuals trying to join them 24/7 without meeting the requirements; while complaining about both the requirements AND the elitism.

 

So im in agreement that you do your part as per what the group requirements demand. I fully support fake kp/ buy title if you are reasonable skilled, as in, you dont die, you play your role to lets say 80 % of what your whale friends would do.