rng.1024 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > Or > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagaliscious.6281 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. So what exactly do you think is wrong, or, making the disparity too much right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > > Or > > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... > > Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. > > The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. > > Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. Yeah no... Issues with profession skills, traits, performance, disparities, build diversity, mechanics... are not addressed, or “better balanced”, by “normalizing” gear... If it were true then spvp would be a testament to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 @"Simonoly.4352" & @"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" I completely agree with you guys. I have max crafting, only own 1 legendary and a couple of ascended armor set's while the rest is scattered around because I have not found use for it yet. Though, I would still give it up in a heartbeat if I could to just play the game and fight people with ease. I feel like I'm working for my fun... rather than just having it, to be completely honest. The majority of my friends don't play the game to just grind all the time... in order to experience balance in WvW. We play it to have fun. - I should also add that I play 7 out of 9 professions currently. I used to be just Mesmer for nearly 2 years out of my 6. Then I began to play other things. So the grind is always more intense the more character's you play. It's gonna take forever to get legendary even on half that. Just to be able to play whatever at any time. I'm sorry, but that is just asking for too much IMO. Especially, when the game is always changing balance wise; causing me to revisit previous grind's. Varying in size. Grinding for a skin or something useful... that **doesn't** have to do with experiencing balance is completely fine though IMO. @"GwAddict.9746" First off, I like your purpose and dedication. Second all I'm gonna say is this... If some people want to feel like their work towards legendary's is still being accounted for (which is fair). I would just really suggest searching for other ways to compensate them, with them, for them. To hopefully lay that part of the argument to rest. Though, you might just get the response of someone that just want's to make your life harder. It might even sound something like this "I worked on legendary's for 1 reason ONLY and that was to switch stats". In which case, they just proved themselves to be close minded to other possibilities and not actually open for discussion... though instead are more interested in an argument. Eh, but you probably already know this. Just though I'd give fair warning. Good luck. Anyways, I believe there are other ways that exist... To make legendary's beneficial to their owners still. Outside of actual balance. That's all I'm gonna say for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > So what exactly do you think is wrong, or, making the disparity too much right now? What is wrong is that certain builds on certain professions with certain gear and certain food/utilites can get an unfair advantage. Don't take me wrong, I want you to have an advantage if you work for it. I simply want to cap how much of one you can get lower than what we see today, by using tools already available to anyone doing the bulk of the work. The disparity I don't really care about, I'm rooting for it to stay about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > > > Or > > > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > > > > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... > > > > Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. > > > > The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. > > > > Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. > > Yeah no... Issues with profession skills, traits, performance, disparities, build diversity, mechanics... are not addressed, or “better balanced”, by “normalizing” gear... If it were true then spvp would be a testament to that. Are you claiming WvW is better balanced than sPvP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. > > the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. > > for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. I agree, that would indeed help alot - but not the discussion at hand. I still think capping gear contributions would provide a significant benefit to the issue of balance. But moreover I don't want to equalize gear - I want to cap their contribution towards min/maxing, so that players are presented equal options for most of their numbers, while trying to make the benefit of ascended become a clear cut % value based on choices and not an overall attribute-pool boost. I want your investment and choice of gear to matter more. No other option presented here do that. I want build diversity, and this is one of the few solutions that would promote this. When you specialize into a stat I want you to feel the difference, but I also want someone without the same advantage know what to expect by just taking a glance at your bar instead of having to get hit first. Simple example is if ascended give you 10% extra in one stat. If they burst you 100%-10% in exotic you know that full ascended will down you. You now have a counter mechanic. You can put your 10% into defense. This is what I want - consistency - allowing you to build/play around it. Simply put I want everyone you meet to either have or don't have that 10% advantage, given same food/utilities/sigils/runes. Traits should still benefit on a profession basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > > > > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. > > > > the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. > > > > for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. > > I agree, that would indeed help alot - but not the discussion at hand. I still think capping gear contributions would provide a significant benefit to the issue of balance. > > But moreover I don't want to equalize gear - I want to cap their contribution towards min/maxing, so that players are presented equal options for most of their numbers, while trying to make the benefit of ascended become a clear cut % value based on choices and not an overall attribute-pool boost. > > I want your investment and choice of gear to matter more. No other option presented here do that. I want build diversity, and this is one of the few solutions that would promote this. When you specialize into a stat I want you to feel the difference, but I also want someone without the same advantage know what to expect by just taking a glance at your bar instead of having to get hit first. > > Simple example is if ascended give you 10% extra in one stat. If they burst you 100%-10% in exotic you know that full ascended will down you. You now have a counter mechanic. You can put your 10% into defense. This is what I want - consistency - allowing you to build/play around it. Simply put I want everyone you meet to either have or don't have that 10% advantage, given same food/utilities/sigils/runes. Traits should still benefit on a profession basis. that RNG mainly comes from weapon damage, we dont deal fixed damage. you currenty already have better stats on ascended. so you can already know if someone in exotic bursted you 100-10, he probably would have downed you in ascended, what do you get from simplifiying the difference between exotic and ascended? yes it would be a little more accurate __if weapon damage was not random__. with random weapon damage it just doesnt improve anything. if you want equal stat numbers you first have to equalize gear and dont give more overall stats the more different stats you have per item. but that would again promote extreme builds compared to now. because now you get a stat bonus if you invest in more different stats. having lower overall stats makes each point a bigger portion of you stat pool, but that stat wont suddenly do more only because you have less stats. you might have lower toughness but your opponent will get lower power so the result will be same as before. what it does is, it buffs pure stat bonuses in traits and skills. for example a deadeye has a ton of burst power stats i can get 200 power on quickness, 200 on reveal and 540 on active assassins signet and up to 750 from might. they would have a greater impact. while other classes who get their damage increase from just relative multipliers wouldnt see such a buff. it also would give might again more value, might already had to be nerfed a few times. but just the stat choice on your items wont make a difference with normalized values. 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Swagger.1459 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > > > > Or > > > > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > > > > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > > > > > > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... > > > > > > Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. > > > > > > The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. > > > > > > Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. > > > > Yeah no... Issues with profession skills, traits, performance, disparities, build diversity, mechanics... are not addressed, or “better balanced”, by “normalizing” gear... If it were true then spvp would be a testament to that. > > Are you claiming WvW is better balanced than sPvP? Do you honestly not understand what I wrote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithos.9023 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Reading this thread made me wonder, such a good idea and so much negativity. But some points stand, the economic reason is probably the biggest one. Not that it couldn’t be done, no one believed that account bound dyes would be a thing, but here we are with one of the best qol features and dyes still having value. Never the less the impact here would be much greater, and the development resources put in this just to work out a new system seems not worth it. But I still rejoiced reading your first idea. As for now I hate the fact, that it feels like I am not getting any rewards form wvw as more or less anything is put in gear acquisition. It feels as playing wvw is just a grind for gear necessary to play wvw. I think that is one of the reasons why wvw feels not rewarding at all. I would rather complete any other reward track than the triumphant armor one, to collect skins or make some money but then gearing my other characters will become an even worse chore as it already is. I also have to remember when HoT was released, and we saw the new statts wash into wvw. Back then trailblazer statts came to the game but not many could afford it. It at least seemed to be rather effective, but with its insane pricing not many could afford it or were willing to afford it. It stroked me back then how inflexible the gear system in general is and it was frustrating to see how those with more gold could experiment freely, while oneself was left out. At least that would no longer be a thing with suggestion number one. Therefore, I at least would not shed a tear if a system like this was put in the game and “devalue” the exotic and ascended gear I grinded until now. If it would give me the flexibility to experiment with gear anytime and everywhere I would take it any day. But while it is highly unlikely I see at least some other potential with your idea, it might serve as middle ground. Having a tab in the hero panel where you could choose the attributes of every piece of armor, that would override the attributes in your worn armor and skills/traits as well, might be good starting point for build templates. How those statts come into this is up for negotiation. Be it unlocked baseline, as in the starting proposal of this thread? Or through unlocking it, in one way or another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > > > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > > > > > > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. > > > > > > the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. > > > > > > for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. > > > > I agree, that would indeed help alot - but not the discussion at hand. I still think capping gear contributions would provide a significant benefit to the issue of balance. > > > > But moreover I don't want to equalize gear - I want to cap their contribution towards min/maxing, so that players are presented equal options for most of their numbers, while trying to make the benefit of ascended become a clear cut % value based on choices and not an overall attribute-pool boost. > > > > I want your investment and choice of gear to matter more. No other option presented here do that. I want build diversity, and this is one of the few solutions that would promote this. When you specialize into a stat I want you to feel the difference, but I also want someone without the same advantage know what to expect by just taking a glance at your bar instead of having to get hit first. > > > > Simple example is if ascended give you 10% extra in one stat. If they burst you 100%-10% in exotic you know that full ascended will down you. You now have a counter mechanic. You can put your 10% into defense. This is what I want - consistency - allowing you to build/play around it. Simply put I want everyone you meet to either have or don't have that 10% advantage, given same food/utilities/sigils/runes. Traits should still benefit on a profession basis. > > that RNG mainly comes from weapon damage, we dont deal fixed damage. you currenty already have better stats on ascended. so you can already know if someone in exotic bursted you 100-10, he probably would have downed you in ascended, what do you get from simplifiying the difference between exotic and ascended? yes it would be a little more accurate __if weapon damage was not random__. with random weapon damage it just doesnt improve anything. > if you want equal stat numbers you first have to equalize gear and dont give more overall stats the more different stats you have per item. but that would again promote extreme builds compared to now. because now you get a stat bonus if you invest in more different stats. > having lower overall stats makes each point a bigger portion of you stat pool, but that stat wont suddenly do more only because you have less stats. you might have lower toughness but your opponent will get lower power so the result will be same as before. what it does is, it buffs pure stat bonuses in traits and skills. for example a deadeye has a ton of burst power stats i can get 200 power on quickness, 200 on reveal and 540 on active assassins signet and up to 750 from might. they would have a greater impact. while other classes who get their damage increase from just relative multipliers wouldnt see such a buff. it also would give might again more value, might already had to be nerfed a few times. but just the stat choice on your items wont make a difference with normalized values. You are assuming all available statpoints are put into offensive attributes here. By lowering the available pool you have to choose between power and vitality f.ex compared to todays marauder where you get the best of both worlds. My intent is for ascended gear to help bridge that gap. And again, only a very few builds that exist today would exceed the new cap, so unless you are the most eager min/maxer you wouldn't even notice this change - except for TTK would go up ever so slightly. What I am asking for is the "+all attribute" bonus on every piece of ascended gear to become only "+ 1 attribute" on infusion. That's a buff on single stats and a nerf on total stats making your decision on what to use it for count more. I'm not saying this will make a difference to the gear as it exists today - let me be clear I do not wish equalized gear. But I want build diversity to come back, because with this change celestial stats f.ex would see a massive boost in all areas. The bunkers would be nerfed becoming easier to kill, with lower max vit/tough and healpower. The oneshotters would be nerfed, needing that extra hit (while becoming squishier). This would mean slotting those 2 toughness trinkets actually would make for a decent difference, as today that can be melted through easily so going all power is the logic decision. No this won't change the meta builds in the least, like you said it's a simple downgrade. But more importantly it opens up for competitive options. Since all professions have different approaches, we might find new meta builds rising because the synergy outperforms what we see today. By continuesly increasing the gap between standard and max stats we lock the metas more and more into place, a hard counter to build diversity. I'm suggesting we take steps now in order to prevent this gamemode from becoming so stale it becomes raids 2.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > > > > > Or > > > > > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > > > > > > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > > > > > > > > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... > > > > > > > > Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. > > > > > > > > The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. > > > > > > > > Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. > > > > > > Yeah no... Issues with profession skills, traits, performance, disparities, build diversity, mechanics... are not addressed, or “better balanced”, by “normalizing” gear... If it were true then spvp would be a testament to that. > > > > Are you claiming WvW is better balanced than sPvP? > > Do you honestly not understand what I wrote? You wrote that if gear normalization lead to better balance sPvP would be a testament to that. So then I ask you - which mode is more balanced? So even with the same mechanics (most skill splits are shared between WvW and PvP) one mode ends up more balanced than the other. Hmm I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > > > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > > > > > > Or > > > > > > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... > > > > > > > > > > Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. > > > > > > > > > > The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. > > > > > > > > > > Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. > > > > > > > > Yeah no... Issues with profession skills, traits, performance, disparities, build diversity, mechanics... are not addressed, or “better balanced”, by “normalizing” gear... If it were true then spvp would be a testament to that. > > > > > > Are you claiming WvW is better balanced than sPvP? > > > > Do you honestly not understand what I wrote? > > You wrote that if gear normalization lead to better balance sPvP would be a testament to that. > > So then I ask you - which mode is more balanced? > > So even with the same mechanics (most skill splits are shared between WvW and PvP) one mode ends up more balanced than the other. > > Hmm I wonder why? Profession designs and “balancing” revolves mostly around PvE. Elites are more tailored for Raids. There is less of a concern for professions and “balance” around spvp and wvw because the proper resources are not devoted to these modes. Slapping on “normalized gear” gear does nothing to address the real issues. Players can function just fine in exotics. It’s easy to get ascended gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nativity.3057 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > > > > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > > > > > > > Or > > > > > > > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. > > > > > > > > > > > > The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah no... Issues with profession skills, traits, performance, disparities, build diversity, mechanics... are not addressed, or “better balanced”, by “normalizing” gear... If it were true then spvp would be a testament to that. > > > > > > > > Are you claiming WvW is better balanced than sPvP? > > > > > > Do you honestly not understand what I wrote? > > > > You wrote that if gear normalization lead to better balance sPvP would be a testament to that. > > > > So then I ask you - which mode is more balanced? > > > > So even with the same mechanics (most skill splits are shared between WvW and PvP) one mode ends up more balanced than the other. > > > > Hmm I wonder why? > > Profession designs and “balancing” revolves mostly around PvE. Elites are more tailored for Raids. There is less of a concern for professions and “balance” around spvp and wvw because the proper resources are not devoted to these modes. > Slapping on “normalized gear” gear does nothing to address the real issues. > > Players can function just fine in exotics. It’s easy to get ascended gear. Easy to get, maybe, but definitely time consuming. It doesn't help that Fractals can only get you core stats. I really want the first option. It makes it easier to swap builds as you go without the huge gold sink required in crafting new gear. Should the fact that you enjoy doing open world PvE give you an advantage over other players when there is a new stat distribution? I don't see the merit in that, and if someone can share with me their opinion on it, I'd appreciate it. In addition, I believe that if you truly needed the stat boost to beat other players in battle, you don't fundamentally understand the mechanics of your class, and won't be enjoying the game when you come across a player running a different stat combination that counters your build. Let's be honest, this game revolves around what build you use and what counters that build. Players that understand the limitation and counters to what they are running will die less because they will know when they can't and can engage. It's easier to fight a build, realize you can't beat it with your current build, and disengage accordingly than it is to ask for Anet to nerf/buff x classes/builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > > > > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. > > > > > > > > the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. > > > > > > > > for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. > > > > > > I agree, that would indeed help alot - but not the discussion at hand. I still think capping gear contributions would provide a significant benefit to the issue of balance. > > > > > > But moreover I don't want to equalize gear - I want to cap their contribution towards min/maxing, so that players are presented equal options for most of their numbers, while trying to make the benefit of ascended become a clear cut % value based on choices and not an overall attribute-pool boost. > > > > > > I want your investment and choice of gear to matter more. No other option presented here do that. I want build diversity, and this is one of the few solutions that would promote this. When you specialize into a stat I want you to feel the difference, but I also want someone without the same advantage know what to expect by just taking a glance at your bar instead of having to get hit first. > > > > > > Simple example is if ascended give you 10% extra in one stat. If they burst you 100%-10% in exotic you know that full ascended will down you. You now have a counter mechanic. You can put your 10% into defense. This is what I want - consistency - allowing you to build/play around it. Simply put I want everyone you meet to either have or don't have that 10% advantage, given same food/utilities/sigils/runes. Traits should still benefit on a profession basis. > > > > that RNG mainly comes from weapon damage, we dont deal fixed damage. you currenty already have better stats on ascended. so you can already know if someone in exotic bursted you 100-10, he probably would have downed you in ascended, what do you get from simplifiying the difference between exotic and ascended? yes it would be a little more accurate __if weapon damage was not random__. with random weapon damage it just doesnt improve anything. > > if you want equal stat numbers you first have to equalize gear and dont give more overall stats the more different stats you have per item. but that would again promote extreme builds compared to now. because now you get a stat bonus if you invest in more different stats. > > having lower overall stats makes each point a bigger portion of you stat pool, but that stat wont suddenly do more only because you have less stats. you might have lower toughness but your opponent will get lower power so the result will be same as before. what it does is, it buffs pure stat bonuses in traits and skills. for example a deadeye has a ton of burst power stats i can get 200 power on quickness, 200 on reveal and 540 on active assassins signet and up to 750 from might. they would have a greater impact. while other classes who get their damage increase from just relative multipliers wouldnt see such a buff. it also would give might again more value, might already had to be nerfed a few times. but just the stat choice on your items wont make a difference with normalized values. > > You are assuming all available statpoints are put into offensive attributes here. By lowering the available pool you have to choose between power and vitality f.ex compared to todays marauder where you get the best of both worlds. My intent is for ascended gear to help bridge that gap. > > And again, only a very few builds that exist today would exceed the new cap, so unless you are the most eager min/maxer you wouldn't even notice this change - except for TTK would go up ever so slightly. What I am asking for is the "+all attribute" bonus on every piece of ascended gear to become only "+ 1 attribute" on infusion. That's a buff on single stats and a nerf on total stats making your decision on what to use it for count more. > > I'm not saying this will make a difference to the gear as it exists today - let me be clear I do not wish equalized gear. But I want build diversity to come back, because with this change celestial stats f.ex would see a massive boost in all areas. The bunkers would be nerfed becoming easier to kill, with lower max vit/tough and healpower. The oneshotters would be nerfed, needing that extra hit (while becoming squishier). This would mean slotting those 2 toughness trinkets actually would make for a decent difference, as today that can be melted through easily so going all power is the logic decision. > > No this won't change the meta builds in the least, like you said it's a simple downgrade. But more importantly it opens up for competitive options. Since all professions have different approaches, we might find new meta builds rising because the synergy outperforms what we see today. By continuesly increasing the gap between standard and max stats we lock the metas more and more into place, a hard counter to build diversity. I'm suggesting we take steps now in order to prevent this gamemode from becoming so stale it becomes raids 2.0. no it would not buff celestial, it would nerf celestials relative power. wich is awesome and it has to be more than what you want. currently celestial will already offer the most stats, marauder will offer more stats than berserk. the more different stats per item, the more total stats you get. you want in scaling from exotic to ascended only to change armor / weapon strength not attributes, but that keeps the inbalance that is already there on exotic level. to normalize it we can even keep the attribute bonus as difference between exotic and ascended and just change it so that the total stats on an item are allways the same no matter how many different stats it has. f.ex ascended chest piece has on 3 stat 141+101+101 = 343 stats , so celestial with an even distribution would have 49 per stat. currently it has 67, thats 67 * 7= 469. 126 stats more on one single item. your proposed change reduces this imbalance a little as the total stat difference doesnt scale to such extremes, but why not normalize it to begin with and keep the scaling based on item quality? the above example on exotic level is 136+96+96 = 328 and 63 * 7 = 441. exotic 441/328 = 1.3445 ; ascended 469/343 = 1,367. so yes on ascended level the stat disparity per item is geater than on exotic level, you suggestion would minimally change this. i actually do like it but i dont think making such a change for such minimal effect is good and if you already want to adress it, adress it properly in making an item with given quality allways give the same amount of total stats. 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morrolan.9608 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 I've said it many time, no spvp like system for WvW, however I don't mind the 2nd suggestion. Its how ascended should have been in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > > > > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > > > > > > > Or > > > > > > > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed there is. That's not even what this is about - the issue arises when traits, food, infusions, utilities and gear all together yield unfair advantages because of the way they stack. This is what I want to reign in. > > > > > > > > > > > > The disparity would be lower, make no mistake. But you also need to remember each professions health pool remains the same as the theoretical max damage decreases - this wouldn't "just" lower values, it would directly buff defense against all damage. And as the attribute pool gets lowered, each point put in will have a bigger impact than they currently do (why 1/12 is less than 1/10 f.ex). This isn't just a shift down a few levels, it will have a multitude of effects - mostly desired although, as you can see, many on this forum are afraid it will devalue what equipment they already have or they will lose their number advantage. I am trying my best to keep both of these concerns addressed, while making the gamemode easier to balance and limit the unintended overperforming gear so that we can avoid nerfs to skills instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because after all I think most of us can agree we rather want gear normalized (not eliminated, just regulated and better balanced) than a rework of our favourite profession because it performed out of bounds. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah no... Issues with profession skills, traits, performance, disparities, build diversity, mechanics... are not addressed, or “better balanced”, by “normalizing” gear... If it were true then spvp would be a testament to that. > > > > > > > > Are you claiming WvW is better balanced than sPvP? > > > > > > Do you honestly not understand what I wrote? > > > > You wrote that if gear normalization lead to better balance sPvP would be a testament to that. > > > > So then I ask you - which mode is more balanced? > > > > So even with the same mechanics (most skill splits are shared between WvW and PvP) one mode ends up more balanced than the other. > > > > Hmm I wonder why? > > Profession designs and “balancing” revolves mostly around PvE. Elites are more tailored for Raids. There is less of a concern for professions and “balance” around spvp and wvw because the proper resources are not devoted to these modes. > Slapping on “normalized gear” gear does nothing to address the real issues. > > Players can function just fine in exotics. It’s easy to get ascended gear. Never said this would address anything on it's own. But it would be a start. I agree to all the rest of your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyDaisy.4107 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 I can function just fine in exotics, but I chose to get ascended, my reasons matter not, it''s my currencies, my farming and / or crafting time and my game to play how I want the way it was designed and has been implemented. But, being that it's easier to get ascended gear today than it ever has been before, it's neither my fault nor my problem if others CHOOSE to run around in lower stat gear, if they want to "level the playing field" it's up to them, not Anet to do so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > > > > > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. > > > > > > > > > > the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. > > > > > > > > > > for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. > > > > > > > > I agree, that would indeed help alot - but not the discussion at hand. I still think capping gear contributions would provide a significant benefit to the issue of balance. > > > > > > > > But moreover I don't want to equalize gear - I want to cap their contribution towards min/maxing, so that players are presented equal options for most of their numbers, while trying to make the benefit of ascended become a clear cut % value based on choices and not an overall attribute-pool boost. > > > > > > > > I want your investment and choice of gear to matter more. No other option presented here do that. I want build diversity, and this is one of the few solutions that would promote this. When you specialize into a stat I want you to feel the difference, but I also want someone without the same advantage know what to expect by just taking a glance at your bar instead of having to get hit first. > > > > > > > > Simple example is if ascended give you 10% extra in one stat. If they burst you 100%-10% in exotic you know that full ascended will down you. You now have a counter mechanic. You can put your 10% into defense. This is what I want - consistency - allowing you to build/play around it. Simply put I want everyone you meet to either have or don't have that 10% advantage, given same food/utilities/sigils/runes. Traits should still benefit on a profession basis. > > > > > > that RNG mainly comes from weapon damage, we dont deal fixed damage. you currenty already have better stats on ascended. so you can already know if someone in exotic bursted you 100-10, he probably would have downed you in ascended, what do you get from simplifiying the difference between exotic and ascended? yes it would be a little more accurate __if weapon damage was not random__. with random weapon damage it just doesnt improve anything. > > > if you want equal stat numbers you first have to equalize gear and dont give more overall stats the more different stats you have per item. but that would again promote extreme builds compared to now. because now you get a stat bonus if you invest in more different stats. > > > having lower overall stats makes each point a bigger portion of you stat pool, but that stat wont suddenly do more only because you have less stats. you might have lower toughness but your opponent will get lower power so the result will be same as before. what it does is, it buffs pure stat bonuses in traits and skills. for example a deadeye has a ton of burst power stats i can get 200 power on quickness, 200 on reveal and 540 on active assassins signet and up to 750 from might. they would have a greater impact. while other classes who get their damage increase from just relative multipliers wouldnt see such a buff. it also would give might again more value, might already had to be nerfed a few times. but just the stat choice on your items wont make a difference with normalized values. > > > > You are assuming all available statpoints are put into offensive attributes here. By lowering the available pool you have to choose between power and vitality f.ex compared to todays marauder where you get the best of both worlds. My intent is for ascended gear to help bridge that gap. > > > > And again, only a very few builds that exist today would exceed the new cap, so unless you are the most eager min/maxer you wouldn't even notice this change - except for TTK would go up ever so slightly. What I am asking for is the "+all attribute" bonus on every piece of ascended gear to become only "+ 1 attribute" on infusion. That's a buff on single stats and a nerf on total stats making your decision on what to use it for count more. > > > > I'm not saying this will make a difference to the gear as it exists today - let me be clear I do not wish equalized gear. But I want build diversity to come back, because with this change celestial stats f.ex would see a massive boost in all areas. The bunkers would be nerfed becoming easier to kill, with lower max vit/tough and healpower. The oneshotters would be nerfed, needing that extra hit (while becoming squishier). This would mean slotting those 2 toughness trinkets actually would make for a decent difference, as today that can be melted through easily so going all power is the logic decision. > > > > No this won't change the meta builds in the least, like you said it's a simple downgrade. But more importantly it opens up for competitive options. Since all professions have different approaches, we might find new meta builds rising because the synergy outperforms what we see today. By continuesly increasing the gap between standard and max stats we lock the metas more and more into place, a hard counter to build diversity. I'm suggesting we take steps now in order to prevent this gamemode from becoming so stale it becomes raids 2.0. > > > no it would not buff celestial, it would nerf celestials relative power. wich is awesome and it has to be more than what you want. > currently celestial will already offer the most stats, marauder will offer more stats than berserk. the more different stats per item, the more total stats you get. > you want in scaling from exotic to ascended only to change armor / weapon strength not attributes, but that keeps the inbalance that is already there on exotic level. > to normalize it we can even keep the attribute bonus as difference between exotic and ascended and just change it so that the total stats on an item are allways the same no matter how many different stats it has. f.ex ascended chest piece has on 3 stat 141+101+101 = 343 stats , so celestial with an even distribution would have 49 per stat. currently it has 67, thats 67 * 7= 469. 126 stats more on one single item. > your proposed change reduces this imbalance a little as the total stat difference doesnt scale to such extremes, but why not normalize it to begin with and keep the scaling based on item quality? > the above example on exotic level is 136+96+96 = 328 and 63 * 7 = 441. > exotic 441/328 = 1.3445 ; ascended 469/343 = 1,367. so yes on ascended level the stat disparity per item is geater than on exotic level, you suggestion would minimally change this. i actually do like it but i dont think making such a change for such minimal effect is good and if you already want to adress it, adress it properly in making an item with given quality allways give the same amount of total stats. It's an interesting idea. Although I don't really see it as an issue that you get a bigger pool the more stats on your gear, even on exotic gear. As a player entering WvW in the zerker meta, it always baffled me how everyone embraced marauder gear when HoT dropped despite the 150 power and 21% crit damage lost. But we did fine, nobody complained since survivability went up and the increase in ttk seemed to sit well with most. Already here the community has shown that numbers don't really matter that much, as long as they get some kind of gameplay tradeoff, here more survivability. It's not the issue I wanted to adress though. I'm fine really with current statpools and an exotic - ascended disparity, all I want is overall downscaling of gear, to put the ascended statbonus into single attribute infusions and thereby make min/maxing more accessible to all professions so that their relative build strength will be closer to eachother. 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MUDse.7623 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"rng.1024" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > > > > > > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. > > > > > > > > > > > > the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. > > > > > > > > > > > > for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. > > > > > > > > > > I agree, that would indeed help alot - but not the discussion at hand. I still think capping gear contributions would provide a significant benefit to the issue of balance. > > > > > > > > > > But moreover I don't want to equalize gear - I want to cap their contribution towards min/maxing, so that players are presented equal options for most of their numbers, while trying to make the benefit of ascended become a clear cut % value based on choices and not an overall attribute-pool boost. > > > > > > > > > > I want your investment and choice of gear to matter more. No other option presented here do that. I want build diversity, and this is one of the few solutions that would promote this. When you specialize into a stat I want you to feel the difference, but I also want someone without the same advantage know what to expect by just taking a glance at your bar instead of having to get hit first. > > > > > > > > > > Simple example is if ascended give you 10% extra in one stat. If they burst you 100%-10% in exotic you know that full ascended will down you. You now have a counter mechanic. You can put your 10% into defense. This is what I want - consistency - allowing you to build/play around it. Simply put I want everyone you meet to either have or don't have that 10% advantage, given same food/utilities/sigils/runes. Traits should still benefit on a profession basis. > > > > > > > > that RNG mainly comes from weapon damage, we dont deal fixed damage. you currenty already have better stats on ascended. so you can already know if someone in exotic bursted you 100-10, he probably would have downed you in ascended, what do you get from simplifiying the difference between exotic and ascended? yes it would be a little more accurate __if weapon damage was not random__. with random weapon damage it just doesnt improve anything. > > > > if you want equal stat numbers you first have to equalize gear and dont give more overall stats the more different stats you have per item. but that would again promote extreme builds compared to now. because now you get a stat bonus if you invest in more different stats. > > > > having lower overall stats makes each point a bigger portion of you stat pool, but that stat wont suddenly do more only because you have less stats. you might have lower toughness but your opponent will get lower power so the result will be same as before. what it does is, it buffs pure stat bonuses in traits and skills. for example a deadeye has a ton of burst power stats i can get 200 power on quickness, 200 on reveal and 540 on active assassins signet and up to 750 from might. they would have a greater impact. while other classes who get their damage increase from just relative multipliers wouldnt see such a buff. it also would give might again more value, might already had to be nerfed a few times. but just the stat choice on your items wont make a difference with normalized values. > > > > > > You are assuming all available statpoints are put into offensive attributes here. By lowering the available pool you have to choose between power and vitality f.ex compared to todays marauder where you get the best of both worlds. My intent is for ascended gear to help bridge that gap. > > > > > > And again, only a very few builds that exist today would exceed the new cap, so unless you are the most eager min/maxer you wouldn't even notice this change - except for TTK would go up ever so slightly. What I am asking for is the "+all attribute" bonus on every piece of ascended gear to become only "+ 1 attribute" on infusion. That's a buff on single stats and a nerf on total stats making your decision on what to use it for count more. > > > > > > I'm not saying this will make a difference to the gear as it exists today - let me be clear I do not wish equalized gear. But I want build diversity to come back, because with this change celestial stats f.ex would see a massive boost in all areas. The bunkers would be nerfed becoming easier to kill, with lower max vit/tough and healpower. The oneshotters would be nerfed, needing that extra hit (while becoming squishier). This would mean slotting those 2 toughness trinkets actually would make for a decent difference, as today that can be melted through easily so going all power is the logic decision. > > > > > > No this won't change the meta builds in the least, like you said it's a simple downgrade. But more importantly it opens up for competitive options. Since all professions have different approaches, we might find new meta builds rising because the synergy outperforms what we see today. By continuesly increasing the gap between standard and max stats we lock the metas more and more into place, a hard counter to build diversity. I'm suggesting we take steps now in order to prevent this gamemode from becoming so stale it becomes raids 2.0. > > > > > > no it would not buff celestial, it would nerf celestials relative power. wich is awesome and it has to be more than what you want. > > currently celestial will already offer the most stats, marauder will offer more stats than berserk. the more different stats per item, the more total stats you get. > > you want in scaling from exotic to ascended only to change armor / weapon strength not attributes, but that keeps the inbalance that is already there on exotic level. > > to normalize it we can even keep the attribute bonus as difference between exotic and ascended and just change it so that the total stats on an item are allways the same no matter how many different stats it has. f.ex ascended chest piece has on 3 stat 141+101+101 = 343 stats , so celestial with an even distribution would have 49 per stat. currently it has 67, thats 67 * 7= 469. 126 stats more on one single item. > > your proposed change reduces this imbalance a little as the total stat difference doesnt scale to such extremes, but why not normalize it to begin with and keep the scaling based on item quality? > > the above example on exotic level is 136+96+96 = 328 and 63 * 7 = 441. > > exotic 441/328 = 1.3445 ; ascended 469/343 = 1,367. so yes on ascended level the stat disparity per item is geater than on exotic level, you suggestion would minimally change this. i actually do like it but i dont think making such a change for such minimal effect is good and if you already want to adress it, adress it properly in making an item with given quality allways give the same amount of total stats. > > It's an interesting idea. Although I don't really see it as an issue that you get a bigger pool the more stats on your gear, even on exotic gear. > > As a player entering WvW in the zerker meta, it always baffled me how everyone embraced marauder gear when HoT dropped despite the 150 power and 21% crit damage lost. But we did fine, nobody complained since survivability went up and the increase in ttk seemed to sit well with most. Already here the community has shown that numbers don't really matter that much, as long as they get some kind of gameplay tradeoff, here more survivability. > > It's not the issue I wanted to adress though. I'm fine really with current statpools and an exotic - ascended disparity, all I want is overall downscaling of gear, to put the ascended statbonus into single attribute infusions and thereby make min/maxing more accessible to all professions so that their relative build strength will be closer to eachother. so you want to buff the stats granted by infusions - currently 5. you got 18 infusions so you wan to distribute those extra atrrribute to 18 infusion slots ? thats oke would give us a little better option to min max indeed. still i think same items should allways grant the same amount of total stats no matter the stat combination on it. so each stat set is equally valuable when combining it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shagaliscious.6281" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player. > > > > > > > > > especially if you are a good player it will affect you as you most probably can better abuse the extremes in stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda coining my cause here. I want to limit the potential abuse by bringing the extremes closer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the abuse of your possibilities is what people like to call skill, if what you do matters little the fight will be just luck or rather rng based, thats pretty boring. putting that to extreme for example would mean everyone has 1 hp and does 1 dmg, first one to hit wins. thats not interesting. if you want to reduce how extreme builds are, rather restrict combinations of traitlines. reducing overall stats just makes it easier to play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for example if you can put in 1. traitline slot only an offensive traitline, in 2. slot a defensive traitline and in 3. a utility / elite spec traitline. then you still have 2x2x3 = 12 traitline combinations wich all result in rather balanced not too extreme builds wich should lead to a more medium TTK instead of the current instant or infinite TTK, it would also make balancing of traits easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree, that would indeed help alot - but not the discussion at hand. I still think capping gear contributions would provide a significant benefit to the issue of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > But moreover I don't want to equalize gear - I want to cap their contribution towards min/maxing, so that players are presented equal options for most of their numbers, while trying to make the benefit of ascended become a clear cut % value based on choices and not an overall attribute-pool boost. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want your investment and choice of gear to matter more. No other option presented here do that. I want build diversity, and this is one of the few solutions that would promote this. When you specialize into a stat I want you to feel the difference, but I also want someone without the same advantage know what to expect by just taking a glance at your bar instead of having to get hit first. > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example is if ascended give you 10% extra in one stat. If they burst you 100%-10% in exotic you know that full ascended will down you. You now have a counter mechanic. You can put your 10% into defense. This is what I want - consistency - allowing you to build/play around it. Simply put I want everyone you meet to either have or don't have that 10% advantage, given same food/utilities/sigils/runes. Traits should still benefit on a profession basis. > > > > > > > > > > that RNG mainly comes from weapon damage, we dont deal fixed damage. you currenty already have better stats on ascended. so you can already know if someone in exotic bursted you 100-10, he probably would have downed you in ascended, what do you get from simplifiying the difference between exotic and ascended? yes it would be a little more accurate __if weapon damage was not random__. with random weapon damage it just doesnt improve anything. > > > > > if you want equal stat numbers you first have to equalize gear and dont give more overall stats the more different stats you have per item. but that would again promote extreme builds compared to now. because now you get a stat bonus if you invest in more different stats. > > > > > having lower overall stats makes each point a bigger portion of you stat pool, but that stat wont suddenly do more only because you have less stats. you might have lower toughness but your opponent will get lower power so the result will be same as before. what it does is, it buffs pure stat bonuses in traits and skills. for example a deadeye has a ton of burst power stats i can get 200 power on quickness, 200 on reveal and 540 on active assassins signet and up to 750 from might. they would have a greater impact. while other classes who get their damage increase from just relative multipliers wouldnt see such a buff. it also would give might again more value, might already had to be nerfed a few times. but just the stat choice on your items wont make a difference with normalized values. > > > > > > > > You are assuming all available statpoints are put into offensive attributes here. By lowering the available pool you have to choose between power and vitality f.ex compared to todays marauder where you get the best of both worlds. My intent is for ascended gear to help bridge that gap. > > > > > > > > And again, only a very few builds that exist today would exceed the new cap, so unless you are the most eager min/maxer you wouldn't even notice this change - except for TTK would go up ever so slightly. What I am asking for is the "+all attribute" bonus on every piece of ascended gear to become only "+ 1 attribute" on infusion. That's a buff on single stats and a nerf on total stats making your decision on what to use it for count more. > > > > > > > > I'm not saying this will make a difference to the gear as it exists today - let me be clear I do not wish equalized gear. But I want build diversity to come back, because with this change celestial stats f.ex would see a massive boost in all areas. The bunkers would be nerfed becoming easier to kill, with lower max vit/tough and healpower. The oneshotters would be nerfed, needing that extra hit (while becoming squishier). This would mean slotting those 2 toughness trinkets actually would make for a decent difference, as today that can be melted through easily so going all power is the logic decision. > > > > > > > > No this won't change the meta builds in the least, like you said it's a simple downgrade. But more importantly it opens up for competitive options. Since all professions have different approaches, we might find new meta builds rising because the synergy outperforms what we see today. By continuesly increasing the gap between standard and max stats we lock the metas more and more into place, a hard counter to build diversity. I'm suggesting we take steps now in order to prevent this gamemode from becoming so stale it becomes raids 2.0. > > > > > > > > > no it would not buff celestial, it would nerf celestials relative power. wich is awesome and it has to be more than what you want. > > > currently celestial will already offer the most stats, marauder will offer more stats than berserk. the more different stats per item, the more total stats you get. > > > you want in scaling from exotic to ascended only to change armor / weapon strength not attributes, but that keeps the inbalance that is already there on exotic level. > > > to normalize it we can even keep the attribute bonus as difference between exotic and ascended and just change it so that the total stats on an item are allways the same no matter how many different stats it has. f.ex ascended chest piece has on 3 stat 141+101+101 = 343 stats , so celestial with an even distribution would have 49 per stat. currently it has 67, thats 67 * 7= 469. 126 stats more on one single item. > > > your proposed change reduces this imbalance a little as the total stat difference doesnt scale to such extremes, but why not normalize it to begin with and keep the scaling based on item quality? > > > the above example on exotic level is 136+96+96 = 328 and 63 * 7 = 441. > > > exotic 441/328 = 1.3445 ; ascended 469/343 = 1,367. so yes on ascended level the stat disparity per item is geater than on exotic level, you suggestion would minimally change this. i actually do like it but i dont think making such a change for such minimal effect is good and if you already want to adress it, adress it properly in making an item with given quality allways give the same amount of total stats. > > > > It's an interesting idea. Although I don't really see it as an issue that you get a bigger pool the more stats on your gear, even on exotic gear. > > > > As a player entering WvW in the zerker meta, it always baffled me how everyone embraced marauder gear when HoT dropped despite the 150 power and 21% crit damage lost. But we did fine, nobody complained since survivability went up and the increase in ttk seemed to sit well with most. Already here the community has shown that numbers don't really matter that much, as long as they get some kind of gameplay tradeoff, here more survivability. > > > > It's not the issue I wanted to adress though. I'm fine really with current statpools and an exotic - ascended disparity, all I want is overall downscaling of gear, to put the ascended statbonus into single attribute infusions and thereby make min/maxing more accessible to all professions so that their relative build strength will be closer to eachother. > > so you want to buff the stats granted by infusions - currently 5. you got 18 infusions so you wan to distribute those extra atrrribute to 18 infusion slots ? thats oke would give us a little better option to min max indeed. > still i think same items should allways grant the same amount of total stats no matter the stat combination on it. so each stat set is equally valuable when combining it. More like remove the 5% and keep the 18 +5 points, although I am all for increasing the infusion values if this was ever implemented. I tend to agree that the same items ought to grant the same amount of total stats, with celestial gear being the only exception - it's kind off the only bonus it has. This would force players to make sacrifices for the efficiency they want - which I used to love about the game but now seem anet has forgotten all about. I suspect this change was made with PvP in mind though, as the amulets automatically use the full value and that this would leave players at too much of a disadvantage - plus it's an easy way to introduce powercreep through gear, which is necessary since every profession on an espec started hitting harder than before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"GwAddict.9746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"rng.1024" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **3 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 900 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **4 stat gear** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Major stat caps at 1050 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minor stat caps at 560 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **7 stat gear (celestial)** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Benefits: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We have upscale so the tech is already there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you still didnt get what i said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo. > > > > > > > > > > > i already said that exotics are cheap af. > > > > > > > > > > > and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of points > > > > > > > > > > > i determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from that > > > > > > > > > > > pve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no difference > > > > > > > > > > > this whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy ppl > > > > > > > > > > > ive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again: > > > > > > > > > > The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And your argument for farming exotic gear: > > > > > > > > > > - You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today > > > > > > > > > > - You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually) > > > > > > > > > > - You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy... > > > > > > > > > > > > The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear. > > > > > > Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion. > > > > > > > > in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more. > > > > > > > > Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions. > > > > > > > > As for cost effective: > > > > Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework? > > > > Or > > > > Should they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players? > > > > > > > > Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base. > > > > > > Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything... > > > > > > Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics.... > > > > > > > > > > That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece. > > > > The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you? > > There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort.... Current min max values are far higher than those for the PvP system; which is in part problematic. Furthermore, you do remove stat disparity as anyone actually has access to any build. Half the stats used in WvW are far from trivial to get. As far as I'm aware a basic WvW firebrand build is what; 500g? OH wait no you can just wait huge sums on an exotic version because of the minstrel insignia's and crafting costs. Assuming you can craft it of course ;) Both high end (reducing amount of stats) and low end (allowing all players to have similar stat values and spreads rather than requiring dedicated WvW builds; WvW overall improves by allowing players to jump in and play PROPERLY. Rather than jumping into PVE to grind for months only to unlock access to play proper - something GW2 was never about. The common sense you refer to is too much common and too little sense. You should actually think about things. WvW main with 3x legendary armor sets. WvW shouldn't be gear reliant and the fact that half the "good" WvW builds are NOT available in exotic / cheap gear makes the problem far worse. There are three arguments against : -Not worth the effort - not like WvW is getting updates and i'd rather get different ones -"QQ but my armor i worked for" - you can use it in PvE like anyone else and you can now run ANY build you like. The only thing you lose is being on even footing as everyone else... Oh wait, I can see why that scares many even "experienced" players ;) -Sense of progression by ^above players who spent all this time making their character stronger but miserably failed at getting better. If you're a vet in the game, you should be able to outplay new players off knowledge and skill perfectly fine. If you're not capable of that; you very well deserve to lose. WvW being linked to PvE gear doesn't benefit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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