If the next rev spec ends up the same as Renegade..

[witcher.3197]

.. then rev will have went ~6 years without a single new competitive build in PvP.

 

Timeline goes something like this:

 

2015, HoT release, revenant has 2 competitive builds: power and hybrid

 

2016 first months: hybrid rev is dead by this time and only power remains

 

2017: PoF releases the worst PvP elite spec ever for the profession, so it's safe to say we'll go into the next expansion in ~2019 without a new viable build for the class in PvP.

 

If the next spec released in 2019 sucks too then that's another 2 years of being stuck with the same build..

[Milan.9035]

I have a feeling they know they made a big mistake and they will make the next one great. But i dont trust them. So i will not be buying before its released and even then i will see if it becomes meta. Pof was a waste for me. I kept hoping they would fix renegade for pvp. My fault.

[Ertrak.9506]

We need to not get another support spec. That's the problem. Renegade is a good specialization *for what it's aimed to do*. Its an *offensive* support spec. The real problem is that offensive support playstyle doesn't work for a pvp environment. Herald work because its *defensive* support: stun breaks, just enough boons, things of that nature.

 

We need a spec that isn't support. I swear to god if we get another support spec ima flip.

[Justine.6351]

2019-2015 = 4

 

6 years would be,

October 2015 +6 years = October 2021

 

Just saying...

[Milan.9035]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> 2019-2015 = 4

>

> 6 years would be,

> October 2015 +6 years = October 2021

>

> Just saying...

 

I think he means it feels like 6 years. I would say feels like 12.

[Milan.9035]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> We need to not get another support spec. That's the problem. Renegade is a good specialization *for what it's aimed to do*. Its an *offensive* support spec. The real problem is that offensive support playstyle doesn't work for a pvp environment. Herald work because its *defensive* support: stun breaks, just enough boons, things of that nature.

>

> We need a spec that isn't support. I swear to god if we get another support spec ima flip.

 

I would not say herald is defensive compared to renegade. Its just better for survival and damage compared to renegade.

[Ertrak.9506]

> @"Milan.9035" said:

> > @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> > We need to not get another support spec. That's the problem. Renegade is a good specialization *for what it's aimed to do*. Its an *offensive* support spec. The real problem is that offensive support playstyle doesn't work for a pvp environment. Herald work because its *defensive* support: stun breaks, just enough boons, things of that nature.

> >

> > We need a spec that isn't support. I swear to god if we get another support spec ima flip.

>

> I would not say herald is defensive compared to renegade. Its just better for survival and damage compared to renegade.

 

That's debatable but rather moot.

 

The point remains we need to first not get another kitten support spec

[witcher.3197]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> 2019-2015 = 4

>

> 6 years would be,

> October 2015 +6 years = October 2021

>

> Just saying...

 

2015-2019 is indeed 4, but that's already more or less a sure thing and has nothing to do with the next elite spec.

 

What I meant was if the next expansion releases renegade 2.0 in 2019 then we can add the following 2 years (time until the expac after that), which brings us to 6 years total.

 

Just saying...

[Justine.6351]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > 2019-2015 = 4

> >

> > 6 years would be,

> > October 2015 +6 years = October 2021

> >

> > Just saying...

>

> 2015-2019 is indeed 4, but that's already more or less a sure thing and has nothing to do with the next elite spec.

>

> What I meant was if the next expansion releases renegade 2.0 in 2019 then we can add the following 2 years (time until the expac after that), which brings us to 6 years total.

>

> Just saying...

 

and you can minus 2 years because nobody was immediately getting new competitive builds shortly after HoT launch.

just saying...

[narcx.3570]

Logic would kind of say that Rev's next elite spec will be PvP focused--if they even do more elite specs.

 

But that would sort of be a shame IMO... I mean, they should avoid making a spec that's ONLY good for one gamemode again--and, honestly, especially if it's sPvP. Look, I love sPvP, but you can't deny that it's a broken and pretty stale game mode. I would rather see changes to sPvP that encourage all existing (and future) specs to be viable--rather then just having eight maps that are all functionally won with the same strategy of rotation. Because in order for a new Rev spec to work in this game mode, it'd have to be another boring kitten bunker build, a highly mobile burst damage or dueling spec, or a team fighting monster... My money would be on Bunker, since you could argue that Herald can pull off the other two roles.

 

Even if they added a game mode that was something like say, 15v15 with 4 capture nodes, Renegade would seem a lot better. Because honestly, Renegades not THAT bad in larger fights where it has multiple supports to cover its weaknesses and enough going on to allow it to kite around and work with terrain/positioning. Like, it's a functional option in WvW zergs and team fighting... It's just, when you get it 5v5, there's nothing you can do to stay alive, and it's awful at playing the rotation game so it can easily get caught out of position 1v1.

 

Yes, we could get a new spec that's great in the current sPvP environment, but I'd rather just get a new sPvP environment that supports more diversity than "Well kitten, they have a smart mirage and we don't, I guess we lost this map."

 

I guess they are trying tho, with the new 2v2 mode next season, but like, that's going to probably encourage even FEWER viable builds, IMO...

 

[Buran.3796]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> Logic would kind of say that Rev's next elite spec will be PvP focused--if they even do more elite specs.

>

> But that would sort of be a shame IMO... I mean, they should avoid making a spec that's ONLY good for one gamemode again--and, honestly, especially if it's sPvP. Look, I love sPvP, but you can't deny that it's a broken and pretty stale game mode. I would rather see changes to sPvP that encourage all existing (and future) specs to be viable--rather then just having eight maps that are all functionally won with the same strategy of rotation.

>

 

I disagree.

 

First of all, the only reason Renegade is played is due it buffs de damage of the previous condition buils for the niche part of the game which are raids. But brings nothing to the table in terms of gameplay, due mace + axe are still the main sources of damage and Mallyx the main legend. So, they made a new condi spec which "isn't new", which has the same old weapons unfeasible for PvP (no blocks, no evades, barely any mobility) plus a whole new weapon with (guess) no blocks, no evades, no mobility (plus an awkard targeting system that seems designed to make things even worse in PvP). And the only weapons capable to bring some defense were the staff (which is a power weapon which doesn't sinergy with condi builds) and the off had sword which only block was removed. Good job.

 

Now, suggesting that a new PvP game mode with more players in each team will improve the suitability of Renegade ignores how 15 x 15 guild scrims works: in those hammer Herald and support Herald are way more successful than any Renegade build (makes sense: WvW is not about punching bag a static golem).

 

Now, instead of focusing the problem in why Renegade is garbage in competive game modes look the other way: WHY so many builds for so many classes are useless for raids? The reason is that the best duellis class in the games (Mesmer) happens to be also the best support class in raids and the best bunker support, to the point to claim 2 spots in each raid game for optimal results, forcing the other builds to either being the best healers or the best dps. Mesmer dominance in raids CRIPPLES the design variety of all the other classes.

 

...And still, I don't understand why was so difficult to add sustain tools to the Renegade. Ranger's and Thieve's short bow both have a 1/2 sec evade, we have that 7 shot crap instead... Why the were unable to put blinds or blocks or evades to something useful for defense in Kalla, with a background of Revenant being so weak defensively with his condi weapons (and having so few options). This is also a thing that repeats itself, because the new addition to our small arsenal, the trident, is a 100% balls to the wall ofensive weapon, with no defenses or mobility of any kind (same as the spear).

 

So, I do expect that the next Rev spec to be a sort of bunker/bruiser defensive build, maybe with the new weapon playable as an hybrid version of the staff, so you could use it in condi PvP builds, in power builds or going full bunker ??/staff.

 

But I have my doubts, because the ANet Revenant team is doing nothing to enhance the power build viability of Rev in raids, which suggest me that they probably are saving it and will try to power creep the physical damage builds in raids with the new spec (aiming to sell expansions), which probably will end in another full kamikaze spec useless for playing in PvP/WvW, and then Witcher will be right: another 2 years of wait, which would mean that between HoT and a hypoteticall 4th expansion in 2021 the Rev would have only had a single PvP build: Herald with Glint + Shiro.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

 

> First of all, the only reason Renegade is played is due it buffs de damage of the previous condition buils for the niche part of the game which are raids. But brings nothing to the table in terms of gameplay, due mace + axe are still the main sources of damage and Mallyx the main legend.

 

Shortbow contributes more total dps in raids than Mace/Axe... And Kalla contributes more total dps than Mallyx (Although Citadel Bombardment trumps them both.)

 

> But I have my doubts, because the ANet Revenant team is doing nothing to enhance the power build viability of Rev in raids, which suggest me that they probably are saving it and will try to power creep the physical damage builds in raids with the new spec (aiming to sell expansions).

 

Except every patch has been slowly upping Power Herald dps and it's actually, finally, pretty viable in raids... It's benchmark is higher than Holo, Breaker, Staff and Sword Weavers, DH, dps Chrono, and Reaper. Granted, it's burst is a little flat, but saying that they've "Done nothing to enhance its raid viability" just isn't right.

[Clownmug.8357]

I don't about other people but I wouldn't be willing to pay for any new expansion until they show willingness to polish their current product.

[Milan.9035]

I also agree in raids rev is great now both condi and power. So can we work on the other game modes now.....

[Buran.3796]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

 

> Shortbow contributes more total dps in raids than Mace/Axe... And Kalla contributes more total dps than Mallyx (Although Citadel Bombardment trumps them both.)

 

> Except every patch has been slowly upping Power Herald dps and it's actually, finally, pretty viable in raids... It's benchmark is higher than Holo, Breaker, Staff and Sword Weavers, DH, dps Chrono, and Reaper. Granted, it's burst is a little flat, but saying that they've "Done nothing to enhance its raid viability" just isn't right.

 

1) I have my doubts about only sb + kalla being able to beat in dps only mace + axe + Mallyx. And...

2) ...At the end really don't care, because I don't play raids. I play PvP/WvW and open world PvE (did dungeons, some fractals up to 70, some raids, but aren't places in which you can find me) and in competitive game modes Renegade feels like a ballast. Which is fine: they focused the spec in pure damage PvE and they forgot PvP/WvW, so is trash. Now I just want to be sure for the next Rev spec that THEY ARE AWARE about PvP/WvW. Because no way I'll spent a dime again in another "Renegade".

[otto.5684]

I know this have been mentioned million times, but it does not hurt to repeat it. Renegade is a cluster fuck. Condi rev was viable in every game mode, before PoF (herald in PvP and core in PvE). All renegade did is add damage multipliers to an already existing condi builds. In order to clamp down on PoF power creep, Anet nerfed primarily none renegade skills. As a result we have a build not viable anywhere outside of raids, and primarily against large hit boxes.

 

To summarize, Anet cannibalized already existing condi builds. Failed to create a new game play style. Failed to make the new build viable outside of highly niche content.

 

As for the new elite viability, we really dunno. My issue with Rev as a class is without herald there is limited viability outside of group PvE content. Any new elite will need to add mobility, sustainability and reliable access to fury to be viable outside of raids. Otherwise, it will end-up like renegade.

[Euthymias.7984]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> We need to not get another support spec. That's the problem. Renegade is a good specialization *for what it's aimed to do*. Its an *offensive* support spec. The real problem is that offensive support playstyle doesn't work for a pvp environment. Herald work because its *defensive* support: stun breaks, just enough boons, things of that nature.

>

> We need a spec that isn't support. I swear to god if we get another support spec ima flip.

 

I dont think Renegade failed because of the nature of its offering (Offensive Support).

It failed because it struggles to even deliver on its basic premise. Its support and offense falls flat in the face of on-node cleave/cc. To this day I cant imagine why the designer of the spec thought that the spec needed additional counter-play to area control/pressure like "you can kill/CC the warband" when its got built in counterplay of just not standing in the area they're deployed. Could you imagine if Scourge Shades were able to be knocked back or destroyed as quickly as these summons are?

 

I figure that if they were just glorified wells, the Legend itself would only need a few small buffs here, it could be pretty viable already...

 

Anyway, here's hoping that they do something great with the next spec, but I'm cautious about believing that with how they tripped over themselves with Renegade.

[Burtnik.5218]

Next elite spec has to be completely selfish, dps/bruiser oriented with gs. I need these death knight vibes to get back into the game.

[Knighthonor.4061]

I would take a support Elite Spec, only if its a damage to Healing style design with Melee damage that gets converted to healing allies for bunkering.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> > @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> > We need to not get another support spec. That's the problem. Renegade is a good specialization *for what it's aimed to do*. Its an *offensive* support spec. The real problem is that offensive support playstyle doesn't work for a pvp environment. Herald work because its *defensive* support: stun breaks, just enough boons, things of that nature.

> >

> > We need a spec that isn't support. I swear to god if we get another support spec ima flip.

>

> I dont think Renegade failed because of the nature of its offering (Offensive Support).

> It failed because it struggles to even deliver on its basic premise. Its support and offense falls flat in the face of on-node cleave/cc. To this day I cant imagine why the designer of the spec thought that the spec needed additional counter-play to area control/pressure like "you can kill/CC the warband" when its got built in counterplay of just not standing in the area they're deployed. Could you imagine if Scourge Shades were able to be knocked back or destroyed as quickly as these summons are?

>

> I figure that if they were just glorified wells, the Legend itself would only need a few small buffs here, it could be pretty viable already...

>

> Anyway, here's hoping that they do something great with the next spec, but I'm cautious about believing that with how they tripped over themselves with Renegade.

 

From what I've been told by a hand full of people, the Dev that designed Renegade also designed Core Ranger..... and I'm strongly inclined to believe this, as both have extremely similar design quirks that stand out and are far removed from other specs. Both are capable of high end damage potential, and both are pretentiously specific in how they have to accomplish this. The skills and traits are also built on their counter play, and not just a side effect of their mechanics. As a result, skills have strong face value, and strong in a laser focused build strategy, but has no middle ground that lets it make minor trade offs or fine tuning. You either spec all the way into a specific concept, or gain little to no side benefits as a mixed build. Nearly every other Class can get a 60% gain when mixed (resulting in above average performance), but when specialized you get a higher base which compounds higher with external buffs (120-150% performance over its baseline).

 

Without traits specifically designed for them, Ranger Weapons/Utilities are more or less their face value; and its only with them do those skills gain significant power and utility. Renegade suffers many of the same design flaws in all 3 areas, and everything it does has to be used a specific way, and easily countered by singular effects or simple strategies.