Cyninja.2954 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple fact, you not knowing and them not changing the system already shows that you might be incorrect or they might not have come around to changing it. Then again it could also show that there is justifiable income from TM charge purchases and as such they are hesitant in changing the system (after originally changing TO this system in the past). > > > > > > > > > It is obvious. No one is going to pay 2 days worth of playtime to change an armor set, when you can do the same in less than 2 hours in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop assuming and realize your own personal very subjective view and financial situation is not applicable for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode, that alone should tell you that not very many people play it. There is a ton of pve only players who never step into spvp or wvw. If transmutation charges are so easy to come by, why are you not using your own advice and get them via WvW? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > I personally like to believe developers remove or change system that are un-fun and generate no income since there is no point in keeping them. Same goes for very convoluted systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode. It is very likely that a vast majority of PvE only players are spending significant money on TM charges. > > > > > > > > > Even though I can only speak for myself, as a PvE-only player, I have never, ever in my entire life spent a single gem on TM charges. And it seems I'm not the only one in that case. However, no one came to brag about regularly paying for TM charges yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good for you, I have never ever purchased Black Lion Keys yet I know people who buy 75-100 of them with each new Black Lion upgrade. I have never bought any type of waypoint unlock, boosters of any kind or the home instance teleport stone (or transmutation charges), yet I know people buy these items and would never assume that my personal approach is not applicable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, if the system does not generate revenue, it will get changed to either generate revenue or be more convenient (again considering the old system was changed to the current one). Subjective experiences are of 0 value when discussing what is possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most MMOs out there also have way more annoying pay to win or convenience cash shops. You are literally saying you want more of one bad thing in exchange for another. If I had a choice between the TM charge system and some of the things other MMOs charge for, I'm happy to curb my TM charge spending for not having to deal with more invasive mechanics for money. > > > > > > > > > It is funny that you keep saying that while offering no example at all. And even so, it is not because others games do it very badly that GW2 should be Ok doing it "just a bit" badly. > > > > > > > > > But again, we already talked about LOTRO, and there's also WoW that allows you to freely change your set (it costs a ridiculously small amount of golds to do so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WoW has a subscription fee, LOTRO charges for a ton of things which GW2 does not charge for like transportation, imposed limitations on free accounts, new maps, classes etc. unless you subscribe. I can go on about SWTOR and how EA charges for hotskill bars and many other basically necessary items. So I'm not sure how you believe any of these games to be fair comparisons when GW2 is by far the cheapest, most free to play one among all of them. The revenue has to come from somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a sub fee has nothing to do with systems, Anet could just as much add an outfit system like SWTOR and still get something out of it, they would just make it more convenient for ppl. > > > > > > > IMO there should be a system that balances this out, allowing skin sets being used without directly applying it on armors yet have a way for Anet to still get something stable out of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > A sub fee has everything to do with systems if those systems are part of the monetization. > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: yes and they could adopt many of the other SWTOR monetization items and make the game way worse by forcing people to sub or pay for every minor thing. Stop looking at partial system and try to make assumptions based on things which sort of are similar. SWTOR has a terrible exploitative monetization model compared to GW2. > > > > > > > > > > wrong, there are free games with the exact system yet they don't use any sub. > > > > > and you should stop assuming everything good needs a sub, think outside the box and explore possibilities beyond what you know. > > > > > > > > What, I never assumed anything good needs a sub or even remotely said so. I said that the games you named used subscriptions to generate revenue thus they can afford to not have monetization in things like transmutation or cosmetic. > > > > > > > > Are we even talking about the same thing here? > > > > > > again, it has nothing to do with a sub, stop using the sub excuse. > > > aslo, SWToR and LOTRO sells outfit slots, pretty much the same thing but better. > > > > WoW makes money via their subscription. They pay their developers from that money thus they have no pay to win or pay for convenience systems in place. > > > > LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO and similar monetization models impose severe restrictions (as does GW2 on it's F2P version) and use a balance between forcing people to spend money and locking things behind must by or want to have items. They offer subscriptions to remove a majority of said restrictions or one time payments. GW2 does so in a similar manner just on different items and with no subscriptions possibility. > > > > You not understanding how business works does not mean that one has nothing to do with the other. I've tried to explain how SWTOR, ESO and LOTRO make money in different areas, but you just keep looking at 1 aspect of the entire business model without trying to understand that it has to be viewed as a while. > > > > If GW2 is making money with TM charges and they change the system, this loss in revenue needs to get made from some where else. It's that simple. > > ok, since you think you know how this works, let me explain how it REALLY works in the real world. > > both LOTRO and SWTOR have absolutely no exchange system, so any purchase players make are cold hard cash regardless. > so every pack, every mount and every single character slot gives them income. > > in GW2 they do have an exchange system, ppl can buy the most expensive items for nothing but time. > so every mount, every pack and every character slot can be gained for absolutely NOTHING. > > you're the one who only looks at it at 1 aspect while ignoring half of it, the charges barely gives them any money at all, if at all. > they are so dirty cheap you have to be really desperate to buy them with real money, i am a horrible farmer yet even i am able to get enough gold to get them for free if the need is high. Dear god, please read up on how the gem exchange works... Hint: 99% of all gems traded are bought with real money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorani.7205 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I have over 700 transmutation charges and I might have used around 100 over the years on my characters (one from each profession). I get the majority of my charges from the WvW reward tracks theses days. Even if PvP or WvW isn't your thing, shouldn't you be able to manage a few of them via easy dailies a month (progressing reward tracks slowly). I am not changing skins a lot, so I have no idea how many charges the average fashion victim needs each month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos.4263 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > In short you seem to beleive ANet can't make any mistake and their way must be the best way. This line of argument can indeed be frustrating because we have no numbers, but I don't think the correct assumption is that it is optimal. Am I going to pretend I know better than ArenaNet marketing? Yes, yes I am. Gem store sales are important, but player retention is critical. Nobody is going to leave the game *specifically* over the cost of transmutation charges. But the less comfortable they make this experience for new players, the less likely they'll get hooked on the game and stick around. That's how you make up the "lost revenue" from these things -- increased future sales. Players who aren't players anymore don't spend money at all. Anecdotally, in my opinion, whatever qualifier I need to apply: they should be throwing these minor trinkets around like candy. (To be fair to some extent they do exactly that, while you are leveling up. But it's not enough anymore, especially since people jump straight to level 80 now and/or skip central Tyria entirely. Bring on transmutation charge weekend or something!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memoranda.9386 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 It seems to me that the crux of the issue is that certain players want the Charges, but don't want the to do the legwork of aquiring them via many of the Free methods. I'm not particularly fond of PvP, but I do it sometimes for Dailies or to kill some time. It's really not that bad in Unranked, since most people there are all doing the same thing: farming Charges, doing Dailies or testing new builds. Or, as was said, WvW: Do EotM, then. You literally drop in, join the Zerg and farm. So you have: -Map Exploration -Unranked PvP -WvW -EotM -Daily Login -Gem Store It looks to me the problem isn't ANet or the (imperfect) system, it's the user. There are so many ways to get free Charges. Stubbornness seems to be the biggest road block here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. I mean, I buy a pack of 25 charges off the BLTC at least once a week, often times more (Though I do usually use gold>gems to do so, it is abundantly clear that plenty of people don't). RPers in particular are more prone to changing their appearance frequently, and also not playing the two game modes where they come super easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > WoW has a subscription fee, LOTRO charges for a ton of things which GW2 does not charge for like transportation, imposed limitations on free accounts, new maps, classes etc. unless you subscribe. I can go on about SWTOR and how EA charges for hotskill bars and many other basically necessary items. So I'm not sure how you believe any of these games to be fair comparisons when GW2 is by far the cheapest, most free to play one among all of them. The revenue has to come from somewhere. > And you need to pay an expansion on GW2 to play the said expansion. You're comparing what shouldn't be compared... > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Stop assuming and realize your own personal very subjective view and financial situation is not applicable for everyone else. > > > > WvW is a niche game mode, that alone should tell you that not very many people play it. There is a ton of pve only players who never step into spvp or wvw. If transmutation charges are so easy to come by, why are you not using your own advice and get them via WvW? > Because I don't want to play that mode. And I shouldn't be forced to it, there should be others way to gain them (other than overpriced gemstore purchases). > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Good for you, I have never ever purchased Black Lion Keys yet I know people who buy 75-100 of them with each new Black Lion upgrade. I have never bought any type of waypoint unlock, boosters of any kind or the home instance teleport stone (or transmutation charges), yet I know people buy these items and would never assume that my personal approach is applicable for everyone. > But here we have some actual statistics, that of the people who come here to discuss it. Many of them are saying that transmutation charges are super easy to come by. None of them, outside of PvE players (and those don't seem to say they're buying any charge), need to buy any charge. > In that logic, I think it's only fair to assume that the income generated by transmutation charges is minimal. Also, as I already said, if ANet really wanted to generate income from this, changing others things than armor skins, like outfits, would also require transmutation charges. That alone seems to prove that they are an outdated system that ANet wouldn't implement if they had to do it all over again. I would cite confirmation bias, and the 90/9/1 rule but tbh it's not really worth explaining. In short, the people who post on a forum is a small percentage of the number of people actually playing the game, and the people who post in a SPECIFIC TOPIC are an even smaller percentage, and are more likely to post if the OP confirms their own opinions rather than to dissent against what is posted. That's actually the reason every thread always seems like people patting each other on the back. We don't have a SINGLE statistic here, in any direction. We have anecdotal evidence of people who happen to bother posting on an Internet forum and are a poor representation of the community at large. Even a biased and manipulative pole would throw this entire thread away as meaningless based on the lack of sampling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game of Bones.8975 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 tl;dr Are you saying we should pay in gold for each change in armor/weapons? While I'm not totally opposed to that idea, it would cost quite a bit and people wouldn't be happy with that system either. Or do you think the whole process should be free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memoranda.9386 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"Game of Bones.8975" said: > tl;dr > > Are you saying we should pay in gold for each change in armor/weapons? > > While I'm not totally opposed to that idea, it would cost quite a bit and people wouldn't be happy with that system either. > > Or do you think the whole process should be free? Whole system should be free, a la the dye system. Once the skin is aquired, use it as you see fit, as often as you see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > Everything you ever say is "if they do it, there's a reason", and when people try to tell you that _perhaps_ there aren't that many reasons, or there are better ways, you just say that we can't know. In short you seem to beleive ANet can't make any mistake and their way must be the best way. I hear you but at this point you can say that for absolutely everything in the game, and thus user feedback would be useless. I'm sorry, there is no point arguing with you if that's all you're going to say... The OP seems to believe ANet has already made a mistake, and any time someone explains why that is almost certainly inaccurate, the response is always, "but we don't really know." That cuts both ways: if the OP gets to make a claim without supporting evidence, then so does anyone with an alternative view. Studios always want feedback of the form, "I don't like it because..." — that's always helpful, if not useful. But this thread didn't start with a statement of preference. It started with a claim of fact: that ANet made a strategic mistake in the transmutation system, that they made smaller tactical mistakes by not charging for glider & MountFits swaps, and that generally there's no point to the system. Any time someone explains why there might be a point, the response is the same, "no, there's no point, it's not fair, it should be removed" — without ever providing any other justification other than, "because." If ANet isn't clever enough to realize that the system isn't working, then it's up to critics to make it easy for them to realize their mistake, otherwise, they have no reason to revisit the topic, let alone spend time trying to replace it with something else. Instead of insisting that the system has no value, why not stick to describing why it makes the game less enjoyable for you. And, ideally, offer an alternative to ANet that would be (a) more fun for lots of people and (b) help them generate income enough to pay for the cost of the new system, the loss of whatever revenue they have now from transmutation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple fact, you not knowing and them not changing the system already shows that you might be incorrect or they might not have come around to changing it. Then again it could also show that there is justifiable income from TM charge purchases and as such they are hesitant in changing the system (after originally changing TO this system in the past). > > > > > > > > > It is obvious. No one is going to pay 2 days worth of playtime to change an armor set, when you can do the same in less than 2 hours in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop assuming and realize your own personal very subjective view and financial situation is not applicable for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode, that alone should tell you that not very many people play it. There is a ton of pve only players who never step into spvp or wvw. If transmutation charges are so easy to come by, why are you not using your own advice and get them via WvW? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > I personally like to believe developers remove or change system that are un-fun and generate no income since there is no point in keeping them. Same goes for very convoluted systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode. It is very likely that a vast majority of PvE only players are spending significant money on TM charges. > > > > > > > > > Even though I can only speak for myself, as a PvE-only player, I have never, ever in my entire life spent a single gem on TM charges. And it seems I'm not the only one in that case. However, no one came to brag about regularly paying for TM charges yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good for you, I have never ever purchased Black Lion Keys yet I know people who buy 75-100 of them with each new Black Lion upgrade. I have never bought any type of waypoint unlock, boosters of any kind or the home instance teleport stone (or transmutation charges), yet I know people buy these items and would never assume that my personal approach is not applicable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, if the system does not generate revenue, it will get changed to either generate revenue or be more convenient (again considering the old system was changed to the current one). Subjective experiences are of 0 value when discussing what is possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most MMOs out there also have way more annoying pay to win or convenience cash shops. You are literally saying you want more of one bad thing in exchange for another. If I had a choice between the TM charge system and some of the things other MMOs charge for, I'm happy to curb my TM charge spending for not having to deal with more invasive mechanics for money. > > > > > > > > > It is funny that you keep saying that while offering no example at all. And even so, it is not because others games do it very badly that GW2 should be Ok doing it "just a bit" badly. > > > > > > > > > But again, we already talked about LOTRO, and there's also WoW that allows you to freely change your set (it costs a ridiculously small amount of golds to do so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WoW has a subscription fee, LOTRO charges for a ton of things which GW2 does not charge for like transportation, imposed limitations on free accounts, new maps, classes etc. unless you subscribe. I can go on about SWTOR and how EA charges for hotskill bars and many other basically necessary items. So I'm not sure how you believe any of these games to be fair comparisons when GW2 is by far the cheapest, most free to play one among all of them. The revenue has to come from somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a sub fee has nothing to do with systems, Anet could just as much add an outfit system like SWTOR and still get something out of it, they would just make it more convenient for ppl. > > > > > > > IMO there should be a system that balances this out, allowing skin sets being used without directly applying it on armors yet have a way for Anet to still get something stable out of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > A sub fee has everything to do with systems if those systems are part of the monetization. > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: yes and they could adopt many of the other SWTOR monetization items and make the game way worse by forcing people to sub or pay for every minor thing. Stop looking at partial system and try to make assumptions based on things which sort of are similar. SWTOR has a terrible exploitative monetization model compared to GW2. > > > > > > > > > > wrong, there are free games with the exact system yet they don't use any sub. > > > > > and you should stop assuming everything good needs a sub, think outside the box and explore possibilities beyond what you know. > > > > > > > > What, I never assumed anything good needs a sub or even remotely said so. I said that the games you named used subscriptions to generate revenue thus they can afford to not have monetization in things like transmutation or cosmetic. > > > > > > > > Are we even talking about the same thing here? > > > > > > again, it has nothing to do with a sub, stop using the sub excuse. > > > aslo, SWToR and LOTRO sells outfit slots, pretty much the same thing but better. > > > > WoW makes money via their subscription. They pay their developers from that money thus they have no pay to win or pay for convenience systems in place. > > > > LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO and similar monetization models impose severe restrictions (as does GW2 on it's F2P version) and use a balance between forcing people to spend money and locking things behind must by or want to have items. They offer subscriptions to remove a majority of said restrictions or one time payments. GW2 does so in a similar manner just on different items and with no subscriptions possibility. > > > > You not understanding how business works does not mean that one has nothing to do with the other. I've tried to explain how SWTOR, ESO and LOTRO make money in different areas, but you just keep looking at 1 aspect of the entire business model without trying to understand that it has to be viewed as a while. > > > > If GW2 is making money with TM charges and they change the system, this loss in revenue needs to get made from some where else. It's that simple. > > ok, since you think you know how this works, let me explain how it REALLY works in the real world. > > both LOTRO and SWTOR have absolutely no exchange system, so any purchase players make are cold hard cash regardless. > so every pack, every mount and every single character slot gives them income. > > in GW2 they do have an exchange system, ppl can buy the most expensive items for nothing but time. > so every mount, every pack and every character slot can be gained for absolutely NOTHING. > > you're the one who only looks at it at 1 aspect while ignoring half of it, the charges barely gives them any money at all, if at all. > they are so dirty cheap you have to be really desperate to buy them with real money, i am a horrible farmer yet even i am able to get enough gold to get them for free if the need is high. When someone uses gold to purchase gems, those gems are drawn from a pool with the exchange rate based on the number of gems in that pool. That pool is filled by the people who exchange their gems for gold (i.e. the opposite). ALL of the gems... 100% of them... were purchased by SOMEONE at SOME POINT. You seem to be under the extremely mistaken impression that people can buy anything in the gem store that didn't cost someone real world money. Gold is a commodity that can be created by many sources including playing the game. Gems as a commodity are only created new in the game through one method... cash purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple fact, you not knowing and them not changing the system already shows that you might be incorrect or they might not have come around to changing it. Then again it could also show that there is justifiable income from TM charge purchases and as such they are hesitant in changing the system (after originally changing TO this system in the past). > > > > > > > > > > It is obvious. No one is going to pay 2 days worth of playtime to change an armor set, when you can do the same in less than 2 hours in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop assuming and realize your own personal very subjective view and financial situation is not applicable for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode, that alone should tell you that not very many people play it. There is a ton of pve only players who never step into spvp or wvw. If transmutation charges are so easy to come by, why are you not using your own advice and get them via WvW? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I personally like to believe developers remove or change system that are un-fun and generate no income since there is no point in keeping them. Same goes for very convoluted systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode. It is very likely that a vast majority of PvE only players are spending significant money on TM charges. > > > > > > > > > > Even though I can only speak for myself, as a PvE-only player, I have never, ever in my entire life spent a single gem on TM charges. And it seems I'm not the only one in that case. However, no one came to brag about regularly paying for TM charges yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good for you, I have never ever purchased Black Lion Keys yet I know people who buy 75-100 of them with each new Black Lion upgrade. I have never bought any type of waypoint unlock, boosters of any kind or the home instance teleport stone (or transmutation charges), yet I know people buy these items and would never assume that my personal approach is not applicable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, if the system does not generate revenue, it will get changed to either generate revenue or be more convenient (again considering the old system was changed to the current one). Subjective experiences are of 0 value when discussing what is possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most MMOs out there also have way more annoying pay to win or convenience cash shops. You are literally saying you want more of one bad thing in exchange for another. If I had a choice between the TM charge system and some of the things other MMOs charge for, I'm happy to curb my TM charge spending for not having to deal with more invasive mechanics for money. > > > > > > > > > > It is funny that you keep saying that while offering no example at all. And even so, it is not because others games do it very badly that GW2 should be Ok doing it "just a bit" badly. > > > > > > > > > > But again, we already talked about LOTRO, and there's also WoW that allows you to freely change your set (it costs a ridiculously small amount of golds to do so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WoW has a subscription fee, LOTRO charges for a ton of things which GW2 does not charge for like transportation, imposed limitations on free accounts, new maps, classes etc. unless you subscribe. I can go on about SWTOR and how EA charges for hotskill bars and many other basically necessary items. So I'm not sure how you believe any of these games to be fair comparisons when GW2 is by far the cheapest, most free to play one among all of them. The revenue has to come from somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a sub fee has nothing to do with systems, Anet could just as much add an outfit system like SWTOR and still get something out of it, they would just make it more convenient for ppl. > > > > > > > > IMO there should be a system that balances this out, allowing skin sets being used without directly applying it on armors yet have a way for Anet to still get something stable out of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A sub fee has everything to do with systems if those systems are part of the monetization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: yes and they could adopt many of the other SWTOR monetization items and make the game way worse by forcing people to sub or pay for every minor thing. Stop looking at partial system and try to make assumptions based on things which sort of are similar. SWTOR has a terrible exploitative monetization model compared to GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > wrong, there are free games with the exact system yet they don't use any sub. > > > > > > and you should stop assuming everything good needs a sub, think outside the box and explore possibilities beyond what you know. > > > > > > > > > > What, I never assumed anything good needs a sub or even remotely said so. I said that the games you named used subscriptions to generate revenue thus they can afford to not have monetization in things like transmutation or cosmetic. > > > > > > > > > > Are we even talking about the same thing here? > > > > > > > > again, it has nothing to do with a sub, stop using the sub excuse. > > > > aslo, SWToR and LOTRO sells outfit slots, pretty much the same thing but better. > > > > > > WoW makes money via their subscription. They pay their developers from that money thus they have no pay to win or pay for convenience systems in place. > > > > > > LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO and similar monetization models impose severe restrictions (as does GW2 on it's F2P version) and use a balance between forcing people to spend money and locking things behind must by or want to have items. They offer subscriptions to remove a majority of said restrictions or one time payments. GW2 does so in a similar manner just on different items and with no subscriptions possibility. > > > > > > You not understanding how business works does not mean that one has nothing to do with the other. I've tried to explain how SWTOR, ESO and LOTRO make money in different areas, but you just keep looking at 1 aspect of the entire business model without trying to understand that it has to be viewed as a while. > > > > > > If GW2 is making money with TM charges and they change the system, this loss in revenue needs to get made from some where else. It's that simple. > > > > ok, since you think you know how this works, let me explain how it REALLY works in the real world. > > > > both LOTRO and SWTOR have absolutely no exchange system, so any purchase players make are cold hard cash regardless. > > so every pack, every mount and every single character slot gives them income. > > > > in GW2 they do have an exchange system, ppl can buy the most expensive items for nothing but time. > > so every mount, every pack and every character slot can be gained for absolutely NOTHING. > > > > you're the one who only looks at it at 1 aspect while ignoring half of it, the charges barely gives them any money at all, if at all. > > they are so dirty cheap you have to be really desperate to buy them with real money, i am a horrible farmer yet even i am able to get enough gold to get them for free if the need is high. > > When someone uses gold to purchase gems, those gems are drawn from a pool with the exchange rate based on the number of gems in that pool. That pool is filled by the people who exchange their gems for gold (i.e. the opposite). ALL of the gems... 100% of them... were purchased by SOMEONE at SOME POINT. You seem to be under the extremely mistaken impression that people can buy anything in the gem store that didn't cost someone real world money. Gold is a commodity that can be created by many sources including playing the game. Gems as a commodity are only created new in the game through one method... cash purchases. i know how it works, you're missing the point entirely. allot, or better yet, 99% of all gem store purchases from real money gems are because of highly expensive items, the charges are so dirty cheap it's not even a comparison. at times i miss the facepalm GIF's..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple fact, you not knowing and them not changing the system already shows that you might be incorrect or they might not have come around to changing it. Then again it could also show that there is justifiable income from TM charge purchases and as such they are hesitant in changing the system (after originally changing TO this system in the past). > > > > > > > > > > > It is obvious. No one is going to pay 2 days worth of playtime to change an armor set, when you can do the same in less than 2 hours in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop assuming and realize your own personal very subjective view and financial situation is not applicable for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode, that alone should tell you that not very many people play it. There is a ton of pve only players who never step into spvp or wvw. If transmutation charges are so easy to come by, why are you not using your own advice and get them via WvW? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally like to believe developers remove or change system that are un-fun and generate no income since there is no point in keeping them. Same goes for very convoluted systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode. It is very likely that a vast majority of PvE only players are spending significant money on TM charges. > > > > > > > > > > > Even though I can only speak for myself, as a PvE-only player, I have never, ever in my entire life spent a single gem on TM charges. And it seems I'm not the only one in that case. However, no one came to brag about regularly paying for TM charges yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good for you, I have never ever purchased Black Lion Keys yet I know people who buy 75-100 of them with each new Black Lion upgrade. I have never bought any type of waypoint unlock, boosters of any kind or the home instance teleport stone (or transmutation charges), yet I know people buy these items and would never assume that my personal approach is not applicable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, if the system does not generate revenue, it will get changed to either generate revenue or be more convenient (again considering the old system was changed to the current one). Subjective experiences are of 0 value when discussing what is possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most MMOs out there also have way more annoying pay to win or convenience cash shops. You are literally saying you want more of one bad thing in exchange for another. If I had a choice between the TM charge system and some of the things other MMOs charge for, I'm happy to curb my TM charge spending for not having to deal with more invasive mechanics for money. > > > > > > > > > > > It is funny that you keep saying that while offering no example at all. And even so, it is not because others games do it very badly that GW2 should be Ok doing it "just a bit" badly. > > > > > > > > > > > But again, we already talked about LOTRO, and there's also WoW that allows you to freely change your set (it costs a ridiculously small amount of golds to do so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WoW has a subscription fee, LOTRO charges for a ton of things which GW2 does not charge for like transportation, imposed limitations on free accounts, new maps, classes etc. unless you subscribe. I can go on about SWTOR and how EA charges for hotskill bars and many other basically necessary items. So I'm not sure how you believe any of these games to be fair comparisons when GW2 is by far the cheapest, most free to play one among all of them. The revenue has to come from somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a sub fee has nothing to do with systems, Anet could just as much add an outfit system like SWTOR and still get something out of it, they would just make it more convenient for ppl. > > > > > > > > > IMO there should be a system that balances this out, allowing skin sets being used without directly applying it on armors yet have a way for Anet to still get something stable out of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A sub fee has everything to do with systems if those systems are part of the monetization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: yes and they could adopt many of the other SWTOR monetization items and make the game way worse by forcing people to sub or pay for every minor thing. Stop looking at partial system and try to make assumptions based on things which sort of are similar. SWTOR has a terrible exploitative monetization model compared to GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrong, there are free games with the exact system yet they don't use any sub. > > > > > > > and you should stop assuming everything good needs a sub, think outside the box and explore possibilities beyond what you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > What, I never assumed anything good needs a sub or even remotely said so. I said that the games you named used subscriptions to generate revenue thus they can afford to not have monetization in things like transmutation or cosmetic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we even talking about the same thing here? > > > > > > > > > > again, it has nothing to do with a sub, stop using the sub excuse. > > > > > aslo, SWToR and LOTRO sells outfit slots, pretty much the same thing but better. > > > > > > > > WoW makes money via their subscription. They pay their developers from that money thus they have no pay to win or pay for convenience systems in place. > > > > > > > > LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO and similar monetization models impose severe restrictions (as does GW2 on it's F2P version) and use a balance between forcing people to spend money and locking things behind must by or want to have items. They offer subscriptions to remove a majority of said restrictions or one time payments. GW2 does so in a similar manner just on different items and with no subscriptions possibility. > > > > > > > > You not understanding how business works does not mean that one has nothing to do with the other. I've tried to explain how SWTOR, ESO and LOTRO make money in different areas, but you just keep looking at 1 aspect of the entire business model without trying to understand that it has to be viewed as a while. > > > > > > > > If GW2 is making money with TM charges and they change the system, this loss in revenue needs to get made from some where else. It's that simple. > > > > > > ok, since you think you know how this works, let me explain how it REALLY works in the real world. > > > > > > both LOTRO and SWTOR have absolutely no exchange system, so any purchase players make are cold hard cash regardless. > > > so every pack, every mount and every single character slot gives them income. > > > > > > in GW2 they do have an exchange system, ppl can buy the most expensive items for nothing but time. > > > so every mount, every pack and every character slot can be gained for absolutely NOTHING. > > > > > > you're the one who only looks at it at 1 aspect while ignoring half of it, the charges barely gives them any money at all, if at all. > > > they are so dirty cheap you have to be really desperate to buy them with real money, i am a horrible farmer yet even i am able to get enough gold to get them for free if the need is high. > > > > When someone uses gold to purchase gems, those gems are drawn from a pool with the exchange rate based on the number of gems in that pool. That pool is filled by the people who exchange their gems for gold (i.e. the opposite). ALL of the gems... 100% of them... were purchased by SOMEONE at SOME POINT. You seem to be under the extremely mistaken impression that people can buy anything in the gem store that didn't cost someone real world money. Gold is a commodity that can be created by many sources including playing the game. Gems as a commodity are only created new in the game through one method... cash purchases. > > i know how it works, you're missing the point entirely. > allot, or better yet, 99% of all gem store purchases from real money gems are because of highly expensive items, the charges are so dirty cheap it's not even a comparison. > > at times i miss the facepalm GIF's..... No, a lot, or better yet 99% are probably direct Gem to Gold exchanges. That's why the gold to gem rate has remained relatively low for so long and only spikes when super desirable items enter the store. Even that is speculation based on lack of direct evidence, as only ANet releasing a report they will NEVER release would tell us the real truth of it. I also miss the facepalms, because everything about what you said is wrong. It is impossible to get transmute charges from the gem store without someone spending real world money. That is a fact. Someone spent money on gems, turned those gems in to gold, and you used gold to buy those gems that were purchased with money. Period. Those charges were purchased. Since you seem to favor anecdotal evidence (which would never actually stand up against scrutiny but whatever) I personally am far more likely to spend money on gems that I then use to buy a couple keys, a pack of charges and a makeover kit than I am to EVER spend 2000 gems on a single mount skin. But I also won't speak for everyone, and you shouldn't either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tails.9372 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Stuff like transmutation charges aren't even the big offenders here but the 200 gold fee for PvP room creation needs to go ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple fact, you not knowing and them not changing the system already shows that you might be incorrect or they might not have come around to changing it. Then again it could also show that there is justifiable income from TM charge purchases and as such they are hesitant in changing the system (after originally changing TO this system in the past). > > > > > > > > > > > It is obvious. No one is going to pay 2 days worth of playtime to change an armor set, when you can do the same in less than 2 hours in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop assuming and realize your own personal very subjective view and financial situation is not applicable for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode, that alone should tell you that not very many people play it. There is a ton of pve only players who never step into spvp or wvw. If transmutation charges are so easy to come by, why are you not using your own advice and get them via WvW? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally like to believe developers remove or change system that are un-fun and generate no income since there is no point in keeping them. Same goes for very convoluted systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode. It is very likely that a vast majority of PvE only players are spending significant money on TM charges. > > > > > > > > > > > Even though I can only speak for myself, as a PvE-only player, I have never, ever in my entire life spent a single gem on TM charges. And it seems I'm not the only one in that case. However, no one came to brag about regularly paying for TM charges yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good for you, I have never ever purchased Black Lion Keys yet I know people who buy 75-100 of them with each new Black Lion upgrade. I have never bought any type of waypoint unlock, boosters of any kind or the home instance teleport stone (or transmutation charges), yet I know people buy these items and would never assume that my personal approach is not applicable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, if the system does not generate revenue, it will get changed to either generate revenue or be more convenient (again considering the old system was changed to the current one). Subjective experiences are of 0 value when discussing what is possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most MMOs out there also have way more annoying pay to win or convenience cash shops. You are literally saying you want more of one bad thing in exchange for another. If I had a choice between the TM charge system and some of the things other MMOs charge for, I'm happy to curb my TM charge spending for not having to deal with more invasive mechanics for money. > > > > > > > > > > > It is funny that you keep saying that while offering no example at all. And even so, it is not because others games do it very badly that GW2 should be Ok doing it "just a bit" badly. > > > > > > > > > > > But again, we already talked about LOTRO, and there's also WoW that allows you to freely change your set (it costs a ridiculously small amount of golds to do so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WoW has a subscription fee, LOTRO charges for a ton of things which GW2 does not charge for like transportation, imposed limitations on free accounts, new maps, classes etc. unless you subscribe. I can go on about SWTOR and how EA charges for hotskill bars and many other basically necessary items. So I'm not sure how you believe any of these games to be fair comparisons when GW2 is by far the cheapest, most free to play one among all of them. The revenue has to come from somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a sub fee has nothing to do with systems, Anet could just as much add an outfit system like SWTOR and still get something out of it, they would just make it more convenient for ppl. > > > > > > > > > IMO there should be a system that balances this out, allowing skin sets being used without directly applying it on armors yet have a way for Anet to still get something stable out of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A sub fee has everything to do with systems if those systems are part of the monetization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: yes and they could adopt many of the other SWTOR monetization items and make the game way worse by forcing people to sub or pay for every minor thing. Stop looking at partial system and try to make assumptions based on things which sort of are similar. SWTOR has a terrible exploitative monetization model compared to GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrong, there are free games with the exact system yet they don't use any sub. > > > > > > > and you should stop assuming everything good needs a sub, think outside the box and explore possibilities beyond what you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > What, I never assumed anything good needs a sub or even remotely said so. I said that the games you named used subscriptions to generate revenue thus they can afford to not have monetization in things like transmutation or cosmetic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we even talking about the same thing here? > > > > > > > > > > again, it has nothing to do with a sub, stop using the sub excuse. > > > > > aslo, SWToR and LOTRO sells outfit slots, pretty much the same thing but better. > > > > > > > > WoW makes money via their subscription. They pay their developers from that money thus they have no pay to win or pay for convenience systems in place. > > > > > > > > LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO and similar monetization models impose severe restrictions (as does GW2 on it's F2P version) and use a balance between forcing people to spend money and locking things behind must by or want to have items. They offer subscriptions to remove a majority of said restrictions or one time payments. GW2 does so in a similar manner just on different items and with no subscriptions possibility. > > > > > > > > You not understanding how business works does not mean that one has nothing to do with the other. I've tried to explain how SWTOR, ESO and LOTRO make money in different areas, but you just keep looking at 1 aspect of the entire business model without trying to understand that it has to be viewed as a while. > > > > > > > > If GW2 is making money with TM charges and they change the system, this loss in revenue needs to get made from some where else. It's that simple. > > > > > > ok, since you think you know how this works, let me explain how it REALLY works in the real world. > > > > > > both LOTRO and SWTOR have absolutely no exchange system, so any purchase players make are cold hard cash regardless. > > > so every pack, every mount and every single character slot gives them income. > > > > > > in GW2 they do have an exchange system, ppl can buy the most expensive items for nothing but time. > > > so every mount, every pack and every character slot can be gained for absolutely NOTHING. > > > > > > you're the one who only looks at it at 1 aspect while ignoring half of it, the charges barely gives them any money at all, if at all. > > > they are so dirty cheap you have to be really desperate to buy them with real money, i am a horrible farmer yet even i am able to get enough gold to get them for free if the need is high. > > > > When someone uses gold to purchase gems, those gems are drawn from a pool with the exchange rate based on the number of gems in that pool. That pool is filled by the people who exchange their gems for gold (i.e. the opposite). ALL of the gems... 100% of them... were purchased by SOMEONE at SOME POINT. You seem to be under the extremely mistaken impression that people can buy anything in the gem store that didn't cost someone real world money. Gold is a commodity that can be created by many sources including playing the game. Gems as a commodity are only created new in the game through one method... cash purchases. > > i know how it works, you're missing the point entirely. > allot, or better yet, 99% of all gem store purchases from real money gems are because of highly expensive items, the charges are so dirty cheap it's not even a comparison. > > at times i miss the facepalm GIF's..... ALL GEMS ARE REAL MONEY GEMS (except the tiny fraction of achievement point gems which people get every 5k AP). The rest is pure speculation from your side and absolutely unfounded in any way. You have absolutely no idea what the best selling gem items are. In fact I'd bet that keys are one of the best continuous sources of gem purchases, even though I myself do not buy any (both from direct gem purchases and from gold to gem conversion and then purchase). Expensive one time items are not the big money makers, that's why Arenanet brings out constant new outfits, skins and permanent picks. The constant purchases of small cost items like character bag slots (300 gems), Living World Episodes (200 gems) BL keys (150 gems) and transmutation charges (25 gems? I don't even know) is what makes a big chunk of the constant revenue. The simple fact that you do not comprehend that almost (again almost since there is a tiny influx via achievements) every single gem used on the gem store no matter if purchased with $ and directly spent or converted to gold and then purchased for gold (with approximately a 28% loss in taxes) suggests you actually do not understand how the gem exchange works. When you find that facepalm gif, take a good long look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > The OP seems to believe ANet has already made a mistake, and any time someone explains why that is almost certainly inaccurate, the response is always, "but we don't really know." That cuts both ways: if the OP gets to make a claim without supporting evidence, then so does anyone with an alternative view. > > Studios always want feedback of the form, "I don't like it because..." — that's always helpful, if not useful. But this thread didn't start with a statement of preference. It started with a claim of fact: that ANet made a strategic mistake in the transmutation system, that they made smaller tactical mistakes by not charging for glider & MountFits swaps, and that generally there's no point to the system. Any time someone explains why there might be a point, the response is the same, "no, there's no point, it's not fair, it should be removed" — without ever providing any other justification other than, "because." Below is the OP. I've added italics to the phrase, "It sounds to me..." > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > The game evolved to a point where I'm not sure if having to pay to change armor skin is a good mechanic anymore. _It sounds to me_ like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. But armor and weapons still require Transmutation Charges. I understand that some people bought some for money and it wouldn't be nice for them to simply remove these, and there has to be some sort of compensation, but... This problem aside, is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? It certainly sounds like the discussion started in the realm of opinion. Must someone add, "In my opinion." to every post as they _continue_ a discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 From a psychological point of view, charges are going to be -- at least for some -- a point of scarcity. Such people are going to hesitate to use them as a result. This will discourage the acquisition of new skins for these people. What's the point of going after a bunch of skins you won't want to use? Since GW2 endgame is largely about skins, this may mean that they are less enfranchised in the franchise as a result. People who feel this way may log on less, and may feel a sense of dissatisfaction with the game as a result. I know I do. I don't know how many people feel this way about GW2 cosmetic changes, but people who live with a mindset towards scarcity are very common in rl. It isn't just scarcity. Any time anyone wants to change a look for a character, there are anywhere from 1 to 13 (6 armor, back, 4 land weapons and 2 water weapons) items to change. Games which do cosmetics better (in my opinion >_>) allow people to set "looks" between which they can change with one click. I defy anyone to claim that the GW2 system is more convenient. This means that by default there is room for improvement in GW2's cosmetic change system. That said, I'd greatly prefer a system where both wardrobe slots and change charges are used, as opposed to the OP's, "Get rid of charges." approach. Such a system would allow one-click changes between multiple sets of skins, while preserving the need for charges to set (or revise) those looks in the first place. This would mean greater convenience for players, facilitate changing between looks, thereby making multiple looks for each character more desirable, and could result in greater revenue for ANet via sale of wardrobe slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReV.6097 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Question: Would I prefer they removed Charges altogether? Yes. Question 2: Is it much of a big deal: Not really. Even for someone like me with 40+ characters. It's only beneficial to people like me, or any other people that go threw about 15 - 20 a week. They are still propper cheap even by gem standards, and if you open a BLC and get a statue, that's like 2 charges you can redeem from one statue. You get a few each month from the daily reward. The odd one from some map completions (yeah eventually you run out of maps). And probably other ways to get them. I'd be happy to see the system reworked, but i'm not overly bothered tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > I have ~1050 unused and want to keep them, thanx. > > > > If you have so many what will it change to simply remove them? > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > Play PvP/WvW and you'll be swimming in charges. With this many options to get them without having to buy them they don't need to change > > > > And nothing for PvE players? Not everyone likes every mode. > > To your first point: " if having to pay to change armor skin is a good mechanic " you said, well Romang is refuting your statement in saying that you don't have to pay to change armor skin. > > To your second point: there are many mechanisms through which a PvE only player can earn transmutation charges, the most readily method being map completion. Completing the map on a capital city rewards 1 charge. Completing any other core tyria map rewards either a BL key, or more likely 1 transmutation charge. > > My wife who is a very casual player, and only steps into WvW to bang out a missing daily, still has about 30 unused charges in her wallet, after only playing this game for 4-5 months. > > To answer your question, why remove a system that works fine? > > I'm not going to defend this system by saying it's good (it isn't), but it was a design choice ANET made, and it works just fine, so we just roll with it. > You can complete the map once per character. How many times can you run WvW with one character? They're not really equivocal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Udolpho.1209 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 PVE only player here. I never purchase transmutations from gem store and never will. I do make throw away characters who run around cities endlessly, and it's not something I look forward to. But I'm grateful that I have the option. I am very careful about using my transmutes; I'm used to scarcity and hording for fear of running out. What I hate most about all this, is when I do buy a skin, it allows me one "free" use/application but it doesn't actually GIVE me a free transmute charge. So my bank storage is full of skins that I'm saving _just_ because I don't want to waste the one "free" time I can apply it. I'll forget its in the bank and use a transmute anyway, so the item skin can take up space indefinitely. I own black lion weapons but haven't unlocked them because I'm saving up the "free" one-time use of the skin so my real transmutes last longer. Only get what you have immediate use for, you might say -- except the gemstore has the delightful policy of removing items for who knows how long before they bring it back for 3 days. If you miss it, better wait another year or two. Same with black lion weapons costing more tickets over time. I enjoy getting skins, but because I'm so desperate for transmutes I can't justify loosing the one-time free application. It's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llethander.3972 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 > @"Buran.3796" said: > Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. WoW's Transmog system would like to have a word with you. In-game cost for in-game cosmetic changes. I think it works quite nicely and, heck, it even doubles as another gold sink to remove currency from the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etria.3642 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Uh, you have not played swtor lately if you think EVERYTHING has been bought with real money. You have this horrible thing they call refer-a-friend that grants the person initial cartel coins and then more each month they stay subscribed. It is a terrible thing and hugely abused because you do not have to be free to play. For instance if Joe is newly subscribed and sees that Jim is advertising that he'll pay 6 million credits if Joe clicks his link and does then Joe gets a box with mostly terrible things(all things subscribers already get except one inventory line which costs about ten k credits) and one free server transfer. Jim gets 500 cartel coins(which he can use to buy something worth about 60million) PLUS another 100 each month. This hurts the economy even further. Also swtor isn't 'free' for costume changes either. You must pay either credits or cartel coins for more costume slots unless you want to literally save the items to plug back in. (Which guild wars you can do that too but in either game who has inventory for that?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > I have ~1050 unused and want to keep them, thanx. > > > > > > If you have so many what will it change to simply remove them? > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > Play PvP/WvW and you'll be swimming in charges. With this many options to get them without having to buy them they don't need to change > > > > > > And nothing for PvE players? Not everyone likes every mode. > > > > To your first point: " if having to pay to change armor skin is a good mechanic " you said, well Romang is refuting your statement in saying that you don't have to pay to change armor skin. > > > > To your second point: there are many mechanisms through which a PvE only player can earn transmutation charges, the most readily method being map completion. Completing the map on a capital city rewards 1 charge. Completing any other core tyria map rewards either a BL key, or more likely 1 transmutation charge. > > > > My wife who is a very casual player, and only steps into WvW to bang out a missing daily, still has about 30 unused charges in her wallet, after only playing this game for 4-5 months. > > > > To answer your question, why remove a system that works fine? > > > > I'm not going to defend this system by saying it's good (it isn't), but it was a design choice ANET made, and it works just fine, so we just roll with it. > > > > You can complete the map once per character. How many times can you run WvW with one character? They're not really equivocal. I never said they were. In fact, if you read my post, I clearly identified that they are easier to obtain in WvW than in PvE, and that is likely by design. What I did say though is that they are obtainable through PvE - just because you don't like the method of obtaining them in PvE remains irrelevant. If you want charges, you can get them in PvE. If you want charges easier you can WvW If you don't like WvW but want charges easier than hold your nose and WvW We're kinda just going around in circles here. Transmutations charges are available to be earned by all players in GW2 in all game modes, but are easier to obtain in some modes vs others. If the player doesn't like those game modes, then they must accept they will have to work harder / longer as a consequence. I would love a full set of Legendary Armor, but I don't have time for raiding or the amount of WvW necessary to make that happen. So....I live without a set of Legendary Armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 > @"Buran.3796" said: > I have ~1050 unused and want to keep them, thanx. Same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. > > WoW's Transmog system would like to have a word with you. In-game cost for in-game cosmetic changes. I think it works quite nicely and, heck, it even doubles as another gold sink to remove currency from the economy. > > One thing that Blizzard is terrible at is managing the gold economy / sinks. This is evidenced by them introducing new mounts each expansion for outrageous sums of gold (5M I think in the new one?) ANET is pretty good with money sinks though; if nothing else, the entire Legendary crafting process drains tons of gold out of the economy, mostly through TP fees and having to buy expensive items from vendors (*glares at icy runestones) So with that in mind, while in Wow the gold cost to transmute is pretty trivial, imagine how expensive it would be if ANET decided to use your idea? Keep in mind, to craft a simple 18 slot bag costs you 2 gold for the rune of holding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowHawk.3615 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Were you around when they weren't account bound and there were different transmute crystals for the type of gear? You wanted to make sure that you kept them separate and they were hard to get IF you didn't buy them with real money, it was a hassle to keep up with. Yellow crystals for anything not exotic and white crystals for exotics/legendaries- and there was no wardrobe option to preview. You also had to make sure you did it in a specific order so that you didn't lose the original item that was being transmuted. Like some players made the mistake of transmuting their legendaries into exotics instead of exotic skins onto legendary. Make sense? Maybe we should go back to that since you don't like what we have now. It was an awesome thing when they implemented the charges as they are. You're coming off very entitled and unaware that it's one of the ways Anet can make money w/o charging a SUB fee every month. Not to mention there are several ways to get loads of transmutes just by playing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now