Discussing the upcoming Herald changes

[Buran.3796]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> Wonder how hard you can stack dmg mitigation with glint, jalis and protection.

> Seems that it could make you nearly invinsible.

> Jalis elite reduces dmg, glint trait reduces dmg with upkeeps up and jalis F2 reduces dmg too.

> With prot it looks like you receive no dmg at all.

 

Depends of the content you're playing. In general activde defenses > passive defenses. Jalis can reduce the damage a 20% with the hammers, but has a cost and Jalis overall is a very weak legend for PvP (works better as support in large WvW groups). Kalla can provide you perma-protection with All for One as long as your cast Kalla skills on regular basis, but again those skills aren't very good in Conquest, so what's the point in using them if Shiro offers better sustain (evade + breakstun + unroot in the same skill, IO and PT to disengage and/or chase, a huge AoE stung. Plus you can't use Jalis and Kalla at the seme time, so you can't stack 33% protection + 20% damage reduction, as far as I known (won't even matter that much, since those legends have low mobility that make you an easy target; that won't be as problematic for a class with as much cleanses as a Guardian, but Revs struggle here).

 

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > Wonder how hard you can stack dmg mitigation with glint, jalis and protection.

> > Seems that it could make you nearly invinsible.

> > Jalis elite reduces dmg, glint trait reduces dmg with upkeeps up and jalis F2 reduces dmg too.

> > With prot it looks like you receive no dmg at all.

>

> Depends of the content you're playing. In general activde defenses > passive defenses. Jalis can reduce the damage a 20% with the hammers, but has a cost and Jalis overall is a very weak legend for PvP (works better as support in large WvW groups). Kalla can provide you perma-protection with All for One as long as your cast Kalla skills on regular basis, but again those skills aren't very good in Conquest, so what's the point in using them if Shiro offers better sustain (evade + breakstun + unroot in the same skill, IO and PT to disengage and/or chase, a huge AoE stung. Plus you can't use Jalis and Kalla at the seme time, so you can't stack 33% protection + 20% damage reduction, as far as I known (won't even matter that much, since those legends have low mobility that make you an easy target; that won't be as problematic for a class with as much cleanses as a Guardian, but Revs struggle here).

>

>

 

Two thibgs xou didnt thought out.

New jalis F2 will reduce dmg, kalla is no part of herold so out if the equation and the qeustion was not mainly about competitive modes.

Its just emerged from pure curiosity, not asking for its viability.

I mean jalis facet us an upkeep, its elite is cost heavy and you need to have the hammers up for more mitigation with the new upcoming trait. So of course its not viable. I just wonder if you can bring it to 100% mitigation.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Kossuth.2168" said:

> > @"Milan.9035" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > @"Elric.4713" said:

> > > > > @"Milan.9035" said:

> > > > > I just hate thier silence on renegade.

> > > > >

> > > > > Like this is this only little comment i seen about renegade from them.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Reddit and anet love renegade.... Guess its fine.... To reddit herald was a dead spec. Pve vs pvp :(

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, they're so proud of their strong female Charr and portal animations that they won't even acknowledge that they designed a trash specialization that's only useful in one game mode.

> > >

> > > Its actually a very strong condi /hybrid spec for anything a player does independent the game mode, if u keep high condi stats.

> > >

> > > Q: Why to u think renegade is weak????

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Its useless in pvp and wvw. Herald does better even in a condi build.

>

> Agree. I can only see Renegade "good" at supporting <10 players with Kalla buff, protection and alacrity. Perhaps some support group roaming for WvW, but in PvP or mass scale WvW, you better drop Renegade and go Herald. Renegade is weak by definition.

 

I played Renegade on my friend home, since i dont have PoF, it didnt actually felt wrong but felt lacluster, it felt very aoe'isb condi bombing, i think Anet wants players to win towards aoe condi bomb, but since game has alot of mobility and evades and some has passive components(due how lame toward aoe spam) alot of stuff Anet add's will not work, it feels like some classes dont actually fit on the combat.

[Madara.7435]

> @"Kossuth.2168" said:

> > @"Madara.7435" said:

> > As far as I know anet sword4 most likely gets nerfed into the ground next week.

> Hope not. They already reviewed sword offhand and buffed sw#5. Reverting the burst status of sword would be one step forward 3 step backwards balance.

True. I hope they wont nerf it either, I just meant that what i have seen balancing wise over the last few years it certainly can happen. And if they swing the nerf hammer they tend to settle things permanently by overdoing it. Sword offhand is in a strong spot right now, but then again when did anet leave us a "strong spot"? lol

 

>

> > Hopefully Shield will be buffed enough to decently replace that. anet actually giving us the option to DECIDE whether we go squishy burst or more durable - i dont think so. either one or the other

> Do you really think shield would replace sword offhand? That's totally wrong. Shield would include some anti condi options and maybe no root on sh#5 but no offensive weapon for sure. If we want to go squishy burst we go sword offhand. If we want support we go shield, with the possibility in the future to maybe replace staff but that we'll see. Staff is totally superior to shield even in the future scenario so why I should drop sw/sw staff? I don't want to become a potato even more...

>

I dont think it becomes an offensive weapon, that was not my point. The best thing to happen would be: player decides to go glassy offensive (sword offhand) or more teamfight focused and defensive (shield). ofc you can already do that, but the offensive capabilities of sword outweight shield BY FAR right now. I was hoping this is going to change, so that shield becomes a viable choice. I used the word "replace" here because i am pretty sure the nerfhammer is going to go down on sword.

 

true, staff is nothing that could EVER be replaced, not by shield or anything. staff5 is way too strong for that to happen, even if shield gets decent condi remove. but it would be nice if it was a viable option to replace sword with shield.

well... we will see next week

 

[Nightmare.1234]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> Wonder how hard you can stack dmg mitigation with glint, jalis and protection.

> Seems that it could make you nearly invinsible.

> Jalis elite reduces dmg, glint trait reduces dmg with upkeeps up and jalis F2 reduces dmg too.

> With prot it looks like you receive no dmg at all.

 

however wonderful that might sound having a rev with survivability, it wont happen.

hardening persistence trait will more likely function like this when under 25% energy reduce damage by 5% when over 75% reduce damage by 15% and in middle reduce by 10%.

jail elite will drop your energy by a lot so u wont get a high bonus combed with the elite and I would expect that passive f2 bonus will only be 5% since it a shared bonus on a low energy upkeep. also expect numbers be lower for pvp/wvw since they did a big nerf to all professions damage mitigation traits in them game modes.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Nightmare.1234" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > Wonder how hard you can stack dmg mitigation with glint, jalis and protection.

> > Seems that it could make you nearly invinsible.

> > Jalis elite reduces dmg, glint trait reduces dmg with upkeeps up and jalis F2 reduces dmg too.

> > With prot it looks like you receive no dmg at all.

>

> however wonderful that might sound having a rev with survivability, it wont happen.

> hardening persistence trait will more likely function like this when under 25% energy reduce damage by 5% when over 75% reduce damage by 15% and in middle reduce by 10%.

> jail elite will drop your energy by a lot so u wont get a high bonus combed with the elite and I would expect that passive f2 bonus will only be 5% since it a shared bonus on a low energy upkeep. also expect numbers be lower for pvp/wvw since they did a big nerf to all professions damage mitigation traits in them game modes.

 

Didnt it stated that you will get decreased dmg taken during an upkeep without any thresholds?

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I’m a bit unsure what the change to Facets from active to consume actually means. Is it more or less just a tooltip change? Or is the nature of the, completely changing? I understand the new F2 change. That makes sense, but I’m talking about 6-0 utilities skills. I also understand that the traits will change a bit based on the consume description. However, when I hear consume, it makes me think of something along the lines of the virtues from the Guardian. Does that mean now the facets are always on upkeep mode and using them will consume it and put it on cool down?

[Ertrak.9506]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Buran.3796" said:

> > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > Wonder how hard you can stack dmg mitigation with glint, jalis and protection.

> > > Seems that it could make you nearly invinsible.

> > > Jalis elite reduces dmg, glint trait reduces dmg with upkeeps up and jalis F2 reduces dmg too.

> > > With prot it looks like you receive no dmg at all.

> >

> > Depends of the content you're playing. In general activde defenses > passive defenses. Jalis can reduce the damage a 20% with the hammers, but has a cost and Jalis overall is a very weak legend for PvP (works better as support in large WvW groups). Kalla can provide you perma-protection with All for One as long as your cast Kalla skills on regular basis, but again those skills aren't very good in Conquest, so what's the point in using them if Shiro offers better sustain (evade + breakstun + unroot in the same skill, IO and PT to disengage and/or chase, a huge AoE stung. Plus you can't use Jalis and Kalla at the seme time, so you can't stack 33% protection + 20% damage reduction, as far as I known (won't even matter that much, since those legends have low mobility that make you an easy target; that won't be as problematic for a class with as much cleanses as a Guardian, but Revs struggle here).

> >

> >

>

> Two thibgs xou didnt thought out.

> New jalis F2 will reduce dmg, kalla is no part of herold so out if the equation and the qeustion was not mainly about competitive modes.

> Its just emerged from pure curiosity, not asking for its viability.

> I mean jalis facet us an upkeep, its elite is cost heavy and you need to have the hammers up for more mitigation with the new upcoming trait. So of course its not viable. I just wonder if you can bring it to 100% mitigation.

>

 

damage reduction modifiers stack multiplicitively, not addatively afaik. I don't know the interaction between toughness and percentile modifiers but all percentile modifiers (jalis f2, protection, and jalis elite) stack multiplicitively with each other. Therefore you cant ever have 100% reduction.

[Ertrak.9506]

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> I’m a bit unsure what the change to Facets from active to consume actually means. Is it more or less just a tooltip change? Or is the nature of the, completely changing? I understand the new F2 change. That makes sense, but I’m talking about 6-0 utilities skills. I also understand that the traits will change a bit based on the consume description. However, when I hear consume, it makes me think of something along the lines of the virtues from the Guardian. Does that mean now the facets are always on upkeep mode and using them will consume it and put it on cool down?

 

Its a tool tip change. It allows them to make traits that affect the active part of the skill without affecting the passive part, or vise versa.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"Buran.3796" said:

> > > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > > Wonder how hard you can stack dmg mitigation with glint, jalis and protection.

> > > > Seems that it could make you nearly invinsible.

> > > > Jalis elite reduces dmg, glint trait reduces dmg with upkeeps up and jalis F2 reduces dmg too.

> > > > With prot it looks like you receive no dmg at all.

> > >

> > > Depends of the content you're playing. In general activde defenses > passive defenses. Jalis can reduce the damage a 20% with the hammers, but has a cost and Jalis overall is a very weak legend for PvP (works better as support in large WvW groups). Kalla can provide you perma-protection with All for One as long as your cast Kalla skills on regular basis, but again those skills aren't very good in Conquest, so what's the point in using them if Shiro offers better sustain (evade + breakstun + unroot in the same skill, IO and PT to disengage and/or chase, a huge AoE stung. Plus you can't use Jalis and Kalla at the seme time, so you can't stack 33% protection + 20% damage reduction, as far as I known (won't even matter that much, since those legends have low mobility that make you an easy target; that won't be as problematic for a class with as much cleanses as a Guardian, but Revs struggle here).

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Two thibgs xou didnt thought out.

> > New jalis F2 will reduce dmg, kalla is no part of herold so out if the equation and the qeustion was not mainly about competitive modes.

> > Its just emerged from pure curiosity, not asking for its viability.

> > I mean jalis facet us an upkeep, its elite is cost heavy and you need to have the hammers up for more mitigation with the new upcoming trait. So of course its not viable. I just wonder if you can bring it to 100% mitigation.

> >

>

> damage reduction modifiers stack multiplicitively, not addatively afaik. I don't know the interaction between toughness and percentile modifiers but all percentile modifiers (jalis f2, protection, and jalis elite) stack multiplicitively with each other. Therefore you cant ever have 100% reduction.

 

Alright thats basically what i wanna know.

How low the dmg could get still intrigues me though.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > I’m a bit unsure what the change to Facets from active to consume actually means. Is it more or less just a tooltip change? Or is the nature of the, completely changing? I understand the new F2 change. That makes sense, but I’m talking about 6-0 utilities skills. I also understand that the traits will change a bit based on the consume description. However, when I hear consume, it makes me think of something along the lines of the virtues from the Guardian. Does that mean now the facets are always on upkeep mode and using them will consume it and put it on cool down?

>

> Its a tool tip change. It allows them to make traits that affect the active part of the skill without affecting the passive part, or vise versa.

 

That’s what I thought and is too bad. The way I was hoping it’d work sounds a bit more unique and refreshing for the Rev. Guess I’ll stick with Renegade then.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> > > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > > I’m a bit unsure what the change to Facets from active to consume actually means. Is it more or less just a tooltip change? Or is the nature of the, completely changing? I understand the new F2 change. That makes sense, but I’m talking about 6-0 utilities skills. I also understand that the traits will change a bit based on the consume description. However, when I hear consume, it makes me think of something along the lines of the virtues from the Guardian. Does that mean now the facets are always on upkeep mode and using them will consume it and put it on cool down?

> >

> > Its a tool tip change. It allows them to make traits that affect the active part of the skill without affecting the passive part, or vise versa.

>

> That’s what I thought and is too bad. The way I was hoping it’d work sounds a bit more unique and refreshing for the Rev. Guess I’ll stick with Renegade then.

 

Would be cool if normal upkeeps would get a release skill as flipover. Just for trait interaction.

[StabbersTheThird.6053]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> We get AoE Stab and AoE Boon Rib.

> Cant complain.

>

> Maybe they want to make Renegade the Dmg Spec and Herold more support. (WvW)

>

> Renegade is awful for Power dmg....

> One dodge and you loose 33% crit chance...

>

> Lets hope the fix that also.

 

But is that a really big deal? In Spvp I somehow hit 176% crit chance.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"StabbersTheThird.6053" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > We get AoE Stab and AoE Boon Rib.

> > Cant complain.

> >

> > Maybe they want to make Renegade the Dmg Spec and Herold more support. (WvW)

> >

> > Renegade is awful for Power dmg....

> > One dodge and you loose 33% crit chance...

> >

> > Lets hope the fix that also.

>

> But is that a really big deal? In Spvp I somehow hit 176% crit chance.

 

WvW Hammer rev.

 

As a Renegade you get 40% Crit Chance from Fury and 33% from the Trait.

So your max base Critchance you want is 27 %.

 

This means if you need to dodge ( something you HAVE to do in WvW VERY often!) , you have now 67% Crit Chance.

 

Or you get hit by one Nerco Shade and loose your Fury.

 

Also Renegade has no good way of getting Fury.

You get 5 second on Legend swap.

You get 6 Seconds if you hit a target under 50%. Which not always happens.

 

This also means you start the fight without Fury.

 

You could trait that you get Fury with your Healskill but you loose 7% dmg and have to waste your healskill.

 

TLDR: One Boonstrip and one dodge and your have max 27% crit chance and you are basicly useless.

[narcx.3570]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> You could trait that you get Fury with your Healskill but you loose 7% dmg and have to waste your healskill.

>

 

To be fair you almost always use Enchanted Dagger's offensively, so it's not THAT big of an issue...

 

The real issue is that the other two traits in that line are both must-takes. Cleanse on Legend swap is all but required at this point in a Rev's PvP/WvW life... The only reason to not take it would be if you are playing a straight Hammer Rev in a large group, since then you need Forceful Persistence and it's modifier to cheese up your damage as much as possible, as is the entire point of those types of builds/strats.

[Bryvanent.1364]

With shield getting condi removal I'll happily drop sword offhand. Time to remind people the power of rev auto attacks :^)

[aimz.6287]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> What is worrying is that the examples given seem to suggest defensive/healing support approach, but what is really needed for Herald (at least in PvE) is the boost to _offensive_ support. It's theoretically a support spec, and yet in PvE noone uses it for that.

this couldn’t been any more closer to the truth.. it’s was such a terrible support spec.. and they made it into a dmg spec ??? Make up your mind hopefully it’s a beautiful well done support spec that does great dmg

 

 

[aimz.6287]

Invo

Salvation

And herald will be the main traitlines if it is gonna be pushed to be a more supportive class infact I think they are making a better “chrono tank” of you ask me idk yet tho

[Nightmare.1234]

> Didnt it stated that you will get decreased dmg taken during an upkeep without any thresholds?

"Gain damage reduction based on your active energy upkeep"

really only says this. it would be a bit weird if it was 1% per energy giving you 100% at full energy and I doubt they would do less than 1. so thresholds would be a logical solution. but it all speculation at this point.

 

now that I think about it. I might be reading it wrong when it says active upkeep and I'm thinking its the pool of energy. when it could be when u are using upkeep utility's and skills so when u stack a bunch of dragon stances and say you on -7 energy depletion per second you would get 7% reduction or maybe even 14% for pve since it ok double things there.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > > @"Diesel Stelar.3709" said:

> > > > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > > > After looking at the Herald changes hitting next week, I'm happy that our class is getting some looks by the balance team, but at this point, I'm more concerned for Herald in PvP/WvW. It's S tier in WvW and **at the very least A tier in PvP**. I've played the class since it's come out and shaking up the status quo after 3 years is worrying, especially when that status quo is working so well right now.

> > >

> > > Stopped reading after this statement. You've been playing a different game obviously.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Herald is performing well in PvP at mid-high levels of play. Herald is also a great WvW roamer. I'm playing a game in which herald, as it stands currently, works just fine.

>

> Herald is an absolute trash in PvP. Saw the last couple of hours of the 1 vs 1 tournament hosted by Jawgeous last Saturday and was dominated from start to end by Mesmers, with a couple of Warriors and a Holo and a Ranger here and there (barely surviving up to the round in which only offensive amulets were allowed and the passive defenses disabled). Only then had those three a small chance againts Mesmers (which anyway didn't work). Rest of classes (Necros, Guardians, Eles, and of course Rev) were demolished, and the only Herald I saw was one shooted in less than 6 secs by a Deadeye. Stealth class are utterly dominant in anything related to 1 vs 1 or roaming, with only space in Conquest for the role of tanky bruisers (a build which neither core Rev, Herald or Renegade had). Any time you see a Herald filling a slot in a monthly AT, is only due the player likes the class, because a Mirage instead would do a better job (but no longer matters because the competitive scene is a 1 year rooting corpse, so people don't bother of playing memes).

>

> Didn't saw the exact nature of the changes, but I would guess than in order to buff the supporting nature of Herald in the niche game mode of PvE raids they butchered even more the already diminished capabilities of the single viable PvP build... This class is becoming less and less fun to play month after month since its release.

 

This has exactly 0 relevance to Conquest. I demolish Deadeyes on rev all day, every day.

[ReaverKane.7598]

They didn't share much, i'll hold my enthusiasm until i see it in game...

Their "reworks" have been a lot of hit or miss.

The mesmer ones kinda broke the class which led to some buffs that created the monster that is current mirage, and it's completely unhealthy gameplay, that's been going on for 6? months...

The thief ones were mostly flavour without substance, and until they buffed the class recently, it was left in a arguably worse state after the rework.

Track history of the reworks has been patchy, and given that we'll likely only see another balance pass on those after a month or two at best, i'm expecting a broken class for a while.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Calling it now, Shields cleanse will be 1 condition cleanse on a 25 second Cd...

[phokus.8934]

They're getting a bit more creative in these skills and weapon skills too. So probably something like cures 1 condition a second max 3 seconds so you get 3 condi clears while shielding/rooted in place.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Calling it now, Shields cleanse will be 1 condition cleanse on a 25 second Cd...

 

1 condi only confirmed? o.O

 

IF so its a troll update, who the hell fights against one condi nowadays?

[Buran.3796]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

 

> This has exactly 0 relevance to Conquest. I demolish Deadeyes on rev all day, every day.

 

How has 0 relevance in Conquest the fact that a Mesmer can be as mobile as a Rev, burst as much as a Rev, but has better sustain, endures condition pressure much better and can kill Revs without being a +1? Same strong points + lack of weakness = any Rev in a match can be replaced by the Mez to achieve better results. I also thinh that Holos can be compared as +1 to Revs and have similar burst but with better chain combos and sustain. Warriors aren't as good in +1 roles but can hold a point way better than Revs.