Is it reallt the herald you wanted reworked?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> Herald needed attention badly, because core revenant was designed around the herald traitline. With a quite obsessive focus on boonfarting.

 

See, to me this would be an argument for reworking core so herald wasn't necessary for the rev to function. Revenant was flawed from release because of this, so without a rework to core specs they either force all elite specs to offer the same sort of things as herald (possibly why renegade worked out being another support) or it's just going to be useless.

 

Might just be my perspective that, but things haven't changed much from when I stopped actively playing rev a year ago from what I can see.

[Dace.8173]

> @"lombomon.7268" said:

> **NOTE: I am not a PvP or WvW player, I play PvE 99% of the time so any issues/strengths unique to those gamemodes I am mostly not considering in this post.**

>

> A lot of people want Renegade reworked which is valid since it has its own issues, but Herald _seriously_ needed some love. Despite Glint seemingly being a support legend, Herald brings no group healing aside from shield skill 4, and cannot supply a party with more than 13-15 might. The Herald trait line has always been a mess and even with a few changes over the years (e.g. adding a damage increase to Bolster Fortifications) there isn't much room for synergy and creativity in builds.

>

> The reason that there's this lack of synergy is because Herald's traits do not compliment its mechanics at all. Vigorous Persistence is the only trait in Herald that interacts with upkeeps, despite all of the Glint skills and the additional profession mechanic (Facet of Nature) being upkeeps. Even then, Vigorous Persistence is a minor, meaning if you take Herald it's automatically given to you, and gives endurance regeneration for some reason even though the elite spec does not have any other dodge related traits/mechanics. This is a running theme throughout Herald unfortunately. Swift Gale and Harmonize Continuity both interact with stun breaks even though Herald itself brings 1 stun break to Revenant that is only available by consuming one of its most useful skills (Facet of Darkness). Enhanced Bulwark (also bonus point on this one since it does not even have its own trait icon, sharing one with Crystal Harbinger) interacts with stability despite Herald bringing no stability to Revenant.

>

> On top of the lack of synergy in some traits, the traits that do attempt to bolster Herald's abilities are clunky or ineffective. Shared Empowerment, even at 100% boon duration and with Facet of Strength active, does not allow Herald to stack might as effectively as other professions even when they do not need 100% boon duration to do so. Soothing Bastion seems like a good support choice, but can lock you into a Crystal Hibernation in crucial moments and the method of boon duration increase is clunky (adding 2 seconds to boons already on allies when a shield skill, which have decent cooldowns and hefty energy costs, is used is not very interesting or potent for a grandmaster trait).

>

> Finally, Herald does not synergize well with the core legends at all. Playing a Ventari/Glint support? You lose all group healing capability aside from weapon skills and giving regen to allies when you swap out of Ventari. Playing a Mallyx/Glint condi dps? You are again limited to only weapon skills and one utility skill (Elemental Blast) for damaging condi application. Shiro/Glint work okay together, but mostly because of the flat damage increase you get from Elder's Force and Bolster Fortifications and not because of anything Glint's stance will do for you specifically.

>

> Renegade certainly has issues with traits, shortbow, and the warband skills, but it is not in as bad of a place as Herald is.

>

> Now I'm aware that in WvW (and maybe PvP?) that Herald does well because of Incensed Response and Facet of Darkness working well together for solo fights. However, one trait synergy between Invocation and Herald working well in a certain scenario in a certain gamemode is not indicative of a well-balanced and rounded elite spec.

>

> Anyways that's just my opinion on why Herald desperately needs this. As a big Revenant fan I'd love for Renegade to get some love in the future, but Herald's rework is long overdue.

 

Herald really didn't need to be a strong healer because of Ventari. There is very little you could place on Glint that would have made it surpass Ventari and if you wanted to heal, in a support capacity, you should bring along Ventari because of its strengths in healing. Ventari allowed Glint to focus on other aspects of support. Also, claiming that needed more love due to it's failings in PvE doesn't really do a good job of supporting the justification of picking Herald over Renegade. If the grand question of which should be first then the logical answer is the one that would benefit the most players, thus any analysis that also doesn't include considerations to PvP and WvW is not going to fully be able to justify Herald over Renegade. We should be looking at the big picture, not just one small slice.

 

 

 

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> The sPvP-only kids can qq about Renegade needing a rework, and it's justified... But Renegade at least feels current--it even feels pretty good in PvE (and somewhat so in WvW).

>

> Herald, on the other hand, just feels straight dated. After they nerfed Natural Resonance, which was like the entire elite spec's flare ability, everyone just geared differently, stacked concentration, and made it 100% obsolete. Without NR, the only unique thing Herald has left is "pulsating boons," which is out classed by druid/chrono in organized PvE and is rendered useless by the insane amount of boonstrip in pvp... (Although it is still really strong for solo play.)

>

> The combination of all this has left Herald in a spot where the elite spec seems to do nothing, other than give relatively useful utility skills at a free energy cost. If the facet releases cost energy, or if it didn't have Facet of Light's hp reset, it'd be hard to say what Herald actually does aside from giving yourself Fury every second to pump up Incensed Response, Permanent Swiftness to kitten around maps, and Elder's Focus' passive. Now THAT sounds like something worthy of a rework, IMO... Compare that to Renegade, which yes, might be terrible in the only game mode you care about, but remains competitive in other areas of the game and at least feels relevant within the modern scope of the game.

 

Feeling current and feeling pretty good and actually being current and pretty good are two separate things. Feeling relevant is not the same thing as actually being relevant (though it's unclear what relevance has to do with fixing balance issues). Renegade is not competitive in PvP and going into WvW I'm hard-pressed to consider Renegade more competitive than Herald. I think a justification that relies on you disregarding other peoples preferred mode of play is a weak one. Why should I care about Heralds performance in the game mode you care about if you don't care about Renegades performance in the game mode other people care about?

[lombomon.7268]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> Herald really didn't need to be a strong healer because of Ventari. There is very little you could place on Glint that would have made it surpass Ventari and if you wanted to heal, in a support capacity, you should bring along Ventari because of its strengths in healing.

>

I didn't say that Glint needed to be completely centered around healing and surpass Ventari in that regard, but the fact that it has no heals means it can leave you without the ability to heal your party for 10 seconds when swapping away from Ventari. This is the main reason (along with Citadel Orders for might/alacrity) why people use Renegade instead of Herald for Ventari healers these days because at least Breakrazor's Bastion can heal in an area while you do not have access to Ventari.

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

>We should be looking at the big picture, not just one small slice.

 

I agree and I did not comment much on PvP/WvW because I do not play those gamemodes and I'm sure the last thing players of those gamemodes want is for a PvE player to tell them what's best for them. However, regardless of how Herald performs in those modes, Herald's traits and skills have the same issues I mentioned across the entire game. They lack coherency and are clunky.

[XxsdgxX.8109]

> @"lombomon.7268" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > Herald really didn't need to be a strong healer because of Ventari. There is very little you could place on Glint that would have made it surpass Ventari and if you wanted to heal, in a support capacity, you should bring along Ventari because of its strengths in healing.

> >

> I didn't say that Glint needed to be completely centered around healing and surpass Ventari in that regard, but the fact that it has no heals means it can leave you without the ability to heal your party for 10 seconds when swapping away from Ventari. This is the main reason (along with Citadel Orders for might/alacrity) why people use Renegade instead of Herald for Ventari healers these days because at least Breakrazor's Bastion can heal in an area while you do not have access to Ventari.

>

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> >We should be looking at the big picture, not just one small slice.

>

> I agree and I did not comment much on PvP/WvW because I do not play those gamemodes and I'm sure the last thing players of those gamemodes want is for a PvE player to tell them what's best for them. However, regardless of how Herald performs in those modes, Herald's traits and skills have the same issues I mentioned across the entire game. They lack coherency and are clunky.

 

Fair enough, at least you acknowledge the lack of experience on PvP/WvW.

 

However

 

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> **The sPvP-only kids can qq** about Renegade needing a rework, and it's justified... But Renegade at least feels current--it even feels pretty good in PvE (and somewhat so in WvW).

>Compare that to Renegade, which yes, might be terrible in **the only game mode you care about**

 

Incredibly shortsighted and selfish. Your very own argument also goes back to you dude.

 

Like anyone that is half decent at PvP knows that Glint is a pretty solid legend, very well balanced, that works really good coupled with other legends. Then we have Kalla which is incredibly bad against actual intelligence (players). Clunky and borderline useless.

 

For instance, *Swift Gale* which is sometimes labeled as *useless* by some PvE (**Raid**) players gives Glint alot of mobility and works amazing for re-positioning yourself during a fight right after getting CCed. It has alot of good use, like it works wonders when trying to kite a Warrior that just tried to burst you down.

I can't even understand what are people doing wrong to say that Glint feels "clunky".

 

And then anyone that does PvE (raiding mostly) knows that Kalla is damn good at it while Glint is labeled as "useless", even though Glint is god damn strong at other PvE content outside of raiding, even for T4 Fractals it's incredibly strong for carrying groups with its wide utility provision.

 

So in other words if it's not optimal for *speed clearing raids* it is labeled as **bad**. So basically any build that isn't included on Snowcrows' Benchmark reddit thread.

Such a nasty *sheep* mentality.

 

Matter of perspective which clearly alot of people lack, but that's a problem everywhere else as well and not just here.

 

PvE only players already had Kalla as a really powerful option while **PvP only had Glint** and so far there was zero mention on changing anything outside of Herald.

So yeah very high chances on breaking Herald for PvP/WvW, being Overpowered or Underpowered are both as as bad. Just look at how toxic Deadeye and Mesmer remained after their reworks.

 

**Current Herald in PvP is the most balanced build I've seen in this game so far, amazing balance between Risk and Reward.** And it's about to disappear.

[Dace.8173]

> @"lombomon.7268" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > Herald really didn't need to be a strong healer because of Ventari. There is very little you could place on Glint that would have made it surpass Ventari and if you wanted to heal, in a support capacity, you should bring along Ventari because of its strengths in healing.

> >

> I didn't say that Glint needed to be completely centered around healing and surpass Ventari in that regard, but the fact that it has no heals means it can leave you without the ability to heal your party for 10 seconds when swapping away from Ventari. This is the main reason (along with Citadel Orders for might/alacrity) why people use Renegade instead of Herald for Ventari healers these days because at least Breakrazor's Bastion can heal in an area while you do not have access to Ventari.

>

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> >We should be looking at the big picture, not just one small slice.

>

> I agree and I did not comment much on PvP/WvW because I do not play those gamemodes and I'm sure the last thing players of those gamemodes want is for a PvE player to tell them what's best for them. However, regardless of how Herald performs in those modes, Herald's traits and skills have the same issues I mentioned across the entire game. They lack coherency and are clunky.

 

When you make the claim that Herald's shortcomings are worse than Renegades, though, and you generalize it across all game modes then you really aren't restricting your comments to just PvE. That's the second time you've said that you aren't really talking about PvP or WvW but extended your analysis of Herald's shortcomings in PvE to all three game modes. That's what I was objecting to when I mentioned you were looking at a small slice as opposed to the big picture. It's one thing to argue in favor of PvE. It's another thing to argue in favor of PvE and then make sweeping statements about Herald and Renegade that covers PvP and WvW. As for Glint and healing, my basic argument is that if you are going for support and you want to do support healing then you should pick Ventari. Being in the support role does not mean you *have to* also engage in healing as well. What is more important than healing is whether or not Glint was intended to fill a healing support slot, which based on it's original designed it was not. The original designed seems to indicate that Glint is meant for boon support and you don't need to be good at healing in order for Glint and Herald to be considered a strong support build.

[narcx.3570]

> @"XxsdgxX.8109" said:

> **Current Herald in PvP is the most balanced build I've seen in this game so far, amazing balance between Risk and Reward.** And it's about to disappear.

 

That's incredibly speculative though... While it is fun to just meme anet and assume that they'll do a terrible job, you don't know that they'll completely screw it up. And one thing's for sure, anet flat out said during their Mesmer rework that they wanted to get away from passive gameplay and move towards one of more active rewards... And you can't deny that almost everything good about Herald is passive af.

 

My biggest thing isn't about BUFFING Herald or Renegade, it's about making them feel better. And while yes, Power Glint is a fun spec to play in PvP, and I agree that it's probably the only thing close to a balanced build in this incredibly broken game mode; once you actually break it down, not much of what's fun about it comes from Herald itself--it comes from rewarding to use weapon skills and Shiro's mobility... In my eyes, the only things Herald even brings to the table in PvP are:

- Double tapping f2 to boost your burst by 15%.

- Constant Fury application to fuel IR.

- Superspeed on Stunbreak.

- Facet of Light to recover from a mistake or to preemptively cover yourself when diving into a team fight for a burst.

- Gaze of Darkness to deal with the insane amount of stealth abuse in the current meta.

- Chaotic Release's ability to stop power rezzes and bait dodges with fake casts.

- Facet releases don't cost any energy allowing you to unload more weapon skills in conjunction with your utility.

 

There's no reason to assume that any of that is going away with the rework. And there's no reason to expect that all the other things that work with power herald (strong weapon skills, Shiro's mobility) will be going away either. If anything, it seems like Facet releases might actually be getting stronger which encourages more active skill use. The only part of Herald that seems at guaranteed jeopardy is with Natural Resonance being reworked, which will take away the ability to pad bursts and refresh boons when in Shiro for an extended amount of time.

[lombomon.7268]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

>When you make the claim that Herald's shortcomings are worse than Renegades, though, and you generalize it across all game modes then you really aren't restricting your comments to just PvE. That's the second time you've said that you aren't really talking about PvP or WvW but extended your analysis of Herald's shortcomings in PvE to all three game modes.

 

The point I was trying to make was that _Herald's traits_ are a big issue rather than performance itself. Renegade's traits interact with Kalla's skills, Citadel Orders, and Kalla's Fervor **while Herald's traits do not have much or any synergy with its mechanics**. Most of the buffs to Herald have been through other traitlines, with the only recent change to increase Power Herald's efficacy having been the buffs to Facet of Chaos and Bolster Fortifications. Incensed Response and Forceful Persistence have improved Herald, but that does not fix the problems the rest of the traitline has. Again, I am not experienced in PvP/WvW so maybe Herald is performing well in those gamemodes like you say. However, the performance is much less of a result of Herald itself and more because of an interaction between Glint's stance and Invocation as far as I'm aware. The Herald traitline really needs some synergy with its own mechanics, at least Renegade already has that. Whether or not Renegade's traits make it perform well is a different story, but at least they affect their elite spec's core mechanics. Either way both of them need a rework, but in terms of outdated and undesirable traits Herald is the winner.

 

> @"XxsdgxX.8109" said:

> For instance, Swift Gale which is sometimes labeled as useless by some PvE (Raid) players gives Glint alot of mobility and works amazing for re-positioning yourself during a fight right after getting CCed. It has alot of good use

Okay I'm gonna take this opportunity to explain why I made my whole post and argument at the beginning. I did mention that some of Glint's traits do not have **synergy** with the rest of the specialization. You like Swift Gale and that's great! It means it has a place somewhere. However, wouldn't it be better if Glint had an entire line based on stun breaks? Or more opportunities to stun break(maybe they'll add one to the new F2 consume)? This is the big problem with Herald, some of the traits are useful because of how core rev is structured rather than how Herald is structured. So when I say that they lack synergy (Swift Gale, Harmonize Continuity, Enhanced Bulwark) I do not mean that they do not have some use, but that they aren't relevant to _Herald_ itself.

 

> @"XxsdgxX.8109" said:

>So in other words if it's not optimal for speed clearing raids it is labeled as bad. So basically any build that isn't included on Snowcrows' Benchmark reddit thread.

I never mentioned raiding and I do not raid, so that has no influence on my opinions here. I have played Herald in T4 fractals since I got my rev geared up for it. That's why I have such a desire for this, because I've sat there staring at those traits scratching my head for a looong time. Just don't make generalizations about where someone is coming from please.

 

I'm gonna stop commenting now because this is just going to go around in a circle but hopefully everyone understands what I was saying! Have a great day Rev forums!

 

 

 

[Infusion.7149]

Well for me, in WvW I am unable to play condi renegade with the same effectiveness as power builds such as power herald.

 

I have seen others use it, but renegade with shortbow is more DOT-focused than hammer and cleanses nullify a lot of the condi damage. At 900 range the renegade shortbow ends up in scourge range. For me, power hammer on rev remains more relevant. The reason why scourges can push out more condi is due to boon corrupt : renegade boon corrupt is minimal , even if there's "steal a boon" in the corruption line & banish enchantment (it only provides confusion).

 

Kalla looks good in PvE because the allies might actually last the full duration whereas in WvW their stationary nature & applied DOT effect are holding them back. Mobs don't cleanse for the most part, and you likely won't be dodging as often . I don't see why the allies can't move (mainly Razorclaw) : the Ventari tablet is able to , as do minions and ranger pets. The turrets from engineer have a similar issue, which is one reason why scrapper is used in WvW (bulwark gyro is a staple for the dome).

 

The way I use most of the Glint skills in battle is to double tap it, to get the effect rather than maintain the facet. This results in far less energy use versus the other legends. The only facet I usually maintain while in Glint is facet of darkness since it is a stunbreak / reveal (against veil) & party-wide fury is hard to come by.

 

Out of battle, Glint's facet of elements provides swiftness to the slow scourges. Renegades don't have this effect on party mobility , the best you'll get is mace 3 blasting the stone road for swiftness (which isn't as likely due to people running Mallyx+Kalla).

 

Running invocation means swapping legends breaks stuns , with Harmonize Continuity from Herald you break stun on allies as well. With the sheer amount of CC in WvW , the legend swap stunbreak along with Pain absorption / Rite of the Great Dwarf end up doing double duty.

 

When running condi your main options are seraph and plaguedoctor stats for concentration to boost pain absorption's resistance duration by 50% (as well as alacrity), provided you have durability runes. Due to the loss of the concentration from herald traitlines you need more pieces of gear with concentration if you do want boon duration.

 

Similarly, for power builds (hammer + staff , hammer + sword x2) the fury applied is only to the renegade itself. Kalla's Fervor allows for greater ferocity, but that's not a huge deal when you factor in the boon duration loss and fury uptime when a herald isn't in the party. Also Herald has access to the 2% more damage per boon from Elder's Force. The use of Shiro alleviates some of the mobility concerns, but it's not party wide & there's much more legend swapping involved to keep energy up. At 5 energy per second energy regeneration, the hammer has less issues than shortbow with respect to utility skill and F4 alacrity skill use (Spiritcrush and Scorchrazor are a major energy drain). The dwarf legend does rather large damage with the Inspiring Reinforcement skill (the colloquial "stone road") at a hefty energy cost but the other skills are largely defensive in nature.

 

Unless Kalla is competitive , the protection from the *All for one* trait will remain largely unused.

 

In any competitive game mode you can't expect to always retain the 33% crit chance from Renegade with full endurance. The wrought-Iron Will trait runs counterintuitive to the 33% critical chance from the minor trait (Brutal Momentum) too.

 

So in short, I feel Renegade needs work for WvW (not necessarily PvE) not in the damage sense but in terms of mobility when not using Shiro (i.e. most condi builds).

 

In PvE, as long as you don't bemoan the lack of swiftness (there's mounts) you're fine running Renegade with Kalla+Mallyx.

[Lucas.3718]

Deffinitly a yes

Power rev was my alltime favorite (mainly because i grew up with power builds and power dps). the herald traitline felt more like ... too distincted from the dragon legent to the point that you could use every other lore character with different skills. the only thing that at best felt like the glint legend was "radiant revival", which was basicly a rez buff with warriors defience stance, but everything else felt like it didnt realy belonged in there (ultimate example"Enhanched Bullwark"(grant one extra stack of stab. let your imagination run wild as to why).heck even the invocation traitline had more to do with glint herself then her own line, like "Forceful Persistence"(get 7%dmg boost when an upkeep is up/2% for herald upkeeps(max 4-5 upkeeps ment 8%-10% dmg boost)).

now, according to the rework, we get to decide wether we want to be supportitive towards our teammates, focus our traits for glint and finally make a connection to herself and her line or if we want to be a more selfish piece of s*** and make ourselves stronger and dont get me startet on facet of nature. this thing went down to sh**tier skills for so long its unbelievable. you get 500 concentration, like it even matters since the only class who really utilizes concentration is chronomancer (and maybe druid ) and he can get on 100% boonduration on himself, and the active one with the nature, basicly gave you 5 boons just for the lulz.

btw i really hope the shield cleanses condi trait will come through. need more condi cleanse plsssss

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I think they have acknowledged the condition powercreep in this game, and it seems like their answer to that is a high amount of condition removal. For example, the most recent change to warrior shout and warhorn. Here's to hoping that they were smart with shield and make it viable for both solo and group play.

[XxsdgxX.8109]

Yeah don't get me *too wrong*, Herald/Glint did need some help but because I know their history is why I'm concerned about any reworks.

Anyway thanks for elaborating further guys @"lombomon.7268" @"narcx.3570" I'm not going to lie I was indeed mad because even in my guild there's people who always kept calling Revenant "Garbage weak class with annoying energy mechanics, why can't I use every skill on cooldown?", aka spamming. And it's usually people who boost every character and don't ever want to experience anything else so yeah I lost my patience.

[Buran.3796]

I Chose Renegade bewteen the options but the truth is that CORE Rev needs even more love.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I want mallyx reworked so that condi herald can be a thing in WvW and not a joke that runs outta steam after 2 skill casts and has 0 tools to keep enemies in his aoes.