Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Celsith.2753" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are clearly off topic when you are not addressing the problem that the trap is not working AS INTENDED BY ANET. The premise of this thread is a question to ANeT - Either fix the DE so it doesn't cancel out the Stealth Disruptor Trap, or get rid of the trap since it not longer does what it was INTENDED TO DO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't really know what Anet intended though. When it was introduced I assumed it was to help find mesmers hiding keeps. Now I find it a valuable tool to stop zergs using a mes to portal themselves into SMC cloaking waters to stealth bomb. I don't recall Anet ever saying what situations they had in mind when it was introduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I was there when they introduced it. It was intended to stop stealth from being permanent in keeps and structures. They said so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well, they obviously didnt intend that effect for deadeye because they introduced shadow meld. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They overlooked it, as usual. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What was ANET's intention? Here's the release: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/may-14-2013/#new-features-5 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wanna try again? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. Says exactly what I have been saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traps have been added as a new purchasable consumable utility item. Two unique variants are available. > > > > > > > > > When placed, traps last for one hour. > > > > > > > > > Players may only have one of a given trap type deployed at a time. > > > > > > > > > Traps will disappear when a player leaves the map. > > > > > > > > > Traps are sold by the vendor for 15 badges and 525 karma; they will stack to 250 and are account-bound. > > > > > > > > > It takes a 4-second channel to place at feet. > > > > > > > > > Placing a trap uses very short-range ground targeting to assist in orientation. > > > > > > > > > Placed traps have a 600×90 rectangular trigger area; only enemies can trigger them. > > > > > > > > > Once triggered, traps affect up to 20 enemies within a range of 1200. > > > > > > > > > Traps cost 10 supply to place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth Disruptor Trap > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Removes stealth from enemies and reveals them for 30 seconds, preventing stealth.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And where in that does it state ANET's intention for creating the traps? Because you've been pretty adamant about knowing the meaning behind their implementation, yet when faced with *proof* that you *don't* know, you continue to pretend that you're right. You haven't provided any backup to your claims - which would be a link to where an ANET employee states the purpose of the traps. I really hope you are trolling at this point... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to try to save face here, nobody really cares that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no idea what you are talking about. The proof YOU yourself provided for me was pretty clear and proved my point. "Introducing Traps in World vs. World: Traps are fiendish items that can be purchased from the new Traps and Tricks Outfitters on each WvW map. We’re starting with anti-stealth fields and traps that remove supply from enemy players, but in the months ahead we’ll introduce even more ways to spread mayhem in the Mists!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the notes ANeT provided are pretty clear as to what it is supposed to do. So, verbatim, it "Removes stealth from enemies and reveals them for 30 seconds, preventing stealth." And nothing could over come that until they messed up with the DE's re-stealth. So thanks for looking that up and gloating once you proved my point for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would be nice if a Dev would actually come on and say they broke the mechanic on purpose, because right now it makes the DE look more broken than it already is. > > > > > > > > > > > > so those traps do exactly that, remove stealth and apply reveal wich has the effect to prevent stealth. > > > > > > shadowmeld on the other hand removes this revealed and applies stealth. why is that an oversight? i think its pretty obvious intended behaviour. > > > > > > using the trap in a 1 vs 1 is not obvious behaviour considering the range, area and arming time aswell as it being undodgeable. but sure you may use it for that as long as i can remove it or kill you trying to set it up. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, it would be nice to get confirmation from a Dev that this was intentional, thereby making stealth traps(created specifically for anti-stealth in 2013) useless, or confirm that they overlooked the DE ability to re-stealth and are trying to find a way to fix it. If you read the intro to the traps they say "Traps are fiendish items that can be purchased from the new Traps and Tricks Outfitters on each WvW map. We’re starting with anti-stealth fields..." . The fiendish part tells us that this is meant to be detrimental to characters who use lots of stealth. **The note tells us the duration - 30 seconds - which is an eternity for a thief/mesmer in an enclosed place. Therefore, I'm leaning towards a broken mechanic that they forgot about and are trying to figure a way of how to fix it**. It wasn't supposed to be a nice trap to begin with. > > > > bolded part is your interpretation of the trap, again if they wanted to give you a tool to hunt mesmers/thieves inside your structure they could have done much better. everytime the debate comes up, people debated the intent behind the trap. because it was mainly used to hunt mesmers and thieves yet the design was never good for that purpose. so it is indeed questionable why anet kept the trap ingame in the current state. but i can assure you with the current reveal effect and anet desperately trying to get thieves to play deadeye with useless buffs to SA like in this patch, it is very unlikely they would make shadow meld inefficient against the trap. it would be much more likely they remove the trap. but that would cause alot of QQ. so the best option is to do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > True, they should make a decision one way or another. Or make an official statement regarding it. Because currently the trap isn't working the way it is written. I know the reason at the time that they added it was because thieves/mesmers had so much stealth that people in WvW couldn't do effective clearing of objectives. They complained and ANeT added the trap - I remember it. We were quite happy with it. But they added DE to the mix, which had tons of problems and limitations that they had to fix to make it desirable, but may have overlooked a mechanic they made the traps for. It's as simple as that. > > > > shadow meld was the same since the release of deadeye. no other class can remove revealed. > > > > the devs did not overlook this skill. it's an elite skill with an obvious intention. > > > > also shadow meld seems best suited in competitive environments as it really has no place in PVE > > > > this is evidence enough that deadeyes were meant to overcome revealed. > > > > it's very clear. i don't understand why you are arguing it anymore. > > > > the traps provide a reveal. shadowmeld stealths and **removes revealed**. > > > > one more time: > > > > the traps put revealed on stealthed foes, but shadowmeld removes revealed. > > > > no other class can remove revealed. > > > > super duper intended effect and outcome. > > > > guess it's time to ask for a new game mechanic, or to delete deadeye from the game. > >For you to assume that just because DE has shadow meld that overcomes reveal is the same as what you are accusing me of doing. No, it's not. Shadow meld is intended to remove revealed because removing revealed is it's primary effect. Stealth disruptor traps are intended to apply revealed because applying revealed to stealthed enemies within a radius when triggered is it's primary effect. These are statements of a mechanic's function, not it's purpose. You on the the other hand are assuming that the trap is meant to target thieves when the skill and the patch notes have been demonstrated to say nothing about thieves. That's you inferring that it was aimed at thieves, the trap doesn't specifically imply that. You're also working under the faulty assumption that, if the trap IS aimed at thieves, then because a strategy exists that happens to counter a thief in stealth that thief is not allowed to have a counter to it under any circumstances. Why not? By that logic we should remove stunbreaks because it counters the lockdown of CC needed by some classes to kill enemies. 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MUDse.7623 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. 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Briareos.1865 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Maybe make it so that revealed can't be completely removed like smeld would just be applying a greater invisibility. They can restealth to access thier traits but within a certain distance enemies could see them like the stealth vinetooth in auric basin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs > > yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? > > again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. > SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. > but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. > > attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. > > disabling attunements for 30seconds hits ele way harder than disabling stealth lol. you still can use your weapon abilities and weapon swap etc. the ele cant even do that. and no, i didnt choose to rely on defense, i HAVE to. if you have ever played warrior you will know that its wayyy too mich of a big advantage to use defense and that in a warrior vs warrior the defense warrior will have a big lead there is a clear difference between warrior and thief in building choices. you ppl with your "l2p issue" are such a joke, its not even close to being that. if i am alone as a warrior in my keep and know that there is a thief inside, i have 4 choices 1. i stay at the lord (and have 0 fun being afk) 2. i act like i walk away and come back to check later and if hes bad he wont see me coming (good ones just stealth and run away to wait again) 3. i just dont care and leave the keep to have some actual fun outside MY OWN keep 4. i run around the keep spammihg sight beyond sight to make him visible for him to melt back into stealth not to mention that there is always the danger to get killed by a thief in a 1v1 scenario, depending on both players skill permastealth is just a mechanic that should NEVER be in the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > > > > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > > > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > > > > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs > > > > yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? > > > > again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. > > SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. > > but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. > > > > attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. > > > > > > disabling attunements for 30seconds hits ele way harder than disabling stealth lol. you still can use your weapon abilities and weapon swap etc. the ele cant even do that. > and no, i didnt choose to rely on defense, i HAVE to. if you have ever played warrior you will know that its wayyy too mich of a big advantage to use defense and that in a warrior vs warrior the defense warrior will have a big lead > there is a clear difference between warrior and thief in building choices. > doesnt matter if one has an other choice within the same profession. you still want a trap to disable a choice. could aswell have a trap that turn warriors into white rabbits. sure you would complain, but you have the CHOICE not to play warrior. thats how much sense your argumentation makes. do i have to bring even more extreme examples? if SA + stealth attacks etc. is not such an important part of the thief, why do you want to disable it? i mean than you clearly have just an issue with invisibility, not with SA , not with stealth attacks or malic einteracting with them. > you ppl with your "l2p issue" are such a joke, its not even close to being that. > if i am alone as a warrior in my keep and know that there is a thief inside, i have 4 choices > > 1. i stay at the lord (and have 0 fun being afk) > 2. i act like i walk away and come back to check later and if hes bad he wont see me coming (good ones just stealth and run away to wait again) > 3. i just dont care and leave the keep to have some actual fun outside MY OWN keep > 4. i run around the keep spammihg sight beyond sight to make him visible for him to melt back into stealth > > not to mention that there is always the danger to get killed by a thief in a 1v1 scenario, depending on both players skill > > permastealth is just a mechanic that should NEVER be in the game if you as a warrior are alone in WvW, you are already doing something wrong when you look at WvW the full mode from a competitive point of view so l2p would already apply here. if the thief is not stupid your dead and the keep is gone anyway , nothing to do with permastealth. but yeah WvW players are very special snowflakes that think any build should be competitive in any situation in WvW while ignoring the mode as such - that just cant happen. 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Pancake.3092 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Honestly, if something is overpowered, it probably has a price tag attached to it. This is par for the course for Nexon. If they deal with this issue, another PoF op "issue" will come up sooner or later... As much as this sounds like a wake up sheeple kind of post - imo people are complaining about things that are knowingly designed into the game for a reason. (i.e. people are complaining about the sky being blue) Please link me one post (after PoF release) where people have complained about core classes being op or unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > but yeah WvW players are very special snowflakes that think any build should be competitive in any situation in WvW while ignoring the mode as such - that just cant happen. Agreed. People are continually wanting WvW balanced around single player interaction, and it has never been designed that way. I think tweaks can be made, but just because something dominates a solo roaming scene, doesn't mean it needs the hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geist.9173 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 In that case a nerf hammer is long overdue. Stealth needs a serious nerf since the start of the game and the implementation of stealth traps was a really bad solution to the problem as was the introduction of reveal-effects on some skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > > > > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > > > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > > > > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs > > > > yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? > > > > again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. > > SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. > > but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. > > > > attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. > > > > > > disabling attunements for 30seconds hits ele way harder than disabling stealth lol. you still can use your weapon abilities and weapon swap etc. the ele cant even do that. > and no, i didnt choose to rely on defense, i HAVE to. if you have ever played warrior you will know that its wayyy too mich of a big advantage to use defense and that in a warrior vs warrior the defense warrior will have a big lead > there is a clear difference between warrior and thief in building choices. > > you ppl with your "l2p issue" are such a joke, its not even close to being that. > if i am alone as a warrior in my keep and know that there is a thief inside, i have 4 choices > > 1. i stay at the lord (and have 0 fun being afk) > 2. i act like i walk away and come back to check later and if hes bad he wont see me coming (good ones just stealth and run away to wait again) > 3. i just dont care and leave the keep to have some actual fun outside MY OWN keep > 4. i run around the keep spammihg sight beyond sight to make him visible for him to melt back into stealth > > not to mention that there is always the danger to get killed by a thief in a 1v1 scenario, depending on both players skill > > permastealth is just a mechanic that should NEVER be in the game Defense is not mandatory. Telling yourself that over and over doesn't make it true. I have a few Warrior Builds that work great without it. Do you also think Greatsword is mandatory? That's a shame... > @"Pancake.3092" said: > Honestly, if something is overpowered, it probably has a price tag attached to it. > > This is par for the course for Nexon. If they deal with this issue, another PoF op "issue" will come up sooner or later... > > As much as this sounds like a wake up sheeple kind of post - imo people are complaining about things that are knowingly designed into the game for a reason. (i.e. people are complaining about the sky being blue) > > Please link me one post (after PoF release) where people have complained about core classes being op or unfair. I'm not going out of my way to link you anything, since it's not worth it. But you can certainly have fun taking a quick search for S/D *core* Thieves, SF FA *core* Eles, Radiant *core* guards, and the single most auto-play 1v1 brainless build - *core* Warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceDead.1963 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Don't let stealth be stacked for more than 4 seconds... And make thieves bulkier to compensate so they can actually brawl some instead of constantly relying on one-shot gimmicks. Thieves who REALLY want to can still achieve their extended stealth by constantly chaining those 4 seconds so they add up, just not all at once. I mainly play Thief, but frankly I am sick of stealth. EDIT: Obviously this would require major reworks to the SA tree and other skills/traits not to mention thief itself, so we all know they'll never actually do something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > EDIT: > Obviously this would require major reworks to the SA tree and other skills/traits not to mention thief itself, so we all know they'll never actually do something like this. and the result of such a rework can very easily be alot more 'annoying','borken','OP' etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > > > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > > > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > > > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > > > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > > > > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > > > > > > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > > > > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > > > > > > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs > > > > > > yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? > > > > > > again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. > > > SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. > > > but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. > > > > > > attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > disabling attunements for 30seconds hits ele way harder than disabling stealth lol. you still can use your weapon abilities and weapon swap etc. the ele cant even do that. > > and no, i didnt choose to rely on defense, i HAVE to. if you have ever played warrior you will know that its wayyy too mich of a big advantage to use defense and that in a warrior vs warrior the defense warrior will have a big lead > > there is a clear difference between warrior and thief in building choices. > > > doesnt matter if one has an other choice within the same profession. you still want a trap to disable a choice. could aswell have a trap that turn warriors into white rabbits. sure you would complain, but you have the CHOICE not to play warrior. thats how much sense your argumentation makes. do i have to bring even more extreme examples? > if SA + stealth attacks etc. is not such an important part of the thief, why do you want to disable it? i mean than you clearly have just an issue with invisibility, not with SA , not with stealth attacks or malic einteracting with them. > > you ppl with your "l2p issue" are such a joke, its not even close to being that. > > if i am alone as a warrior in my keep and know that there is a thief inside, i have 4 choices > > > > 1. i stay at the lord (and have 0 fun being afk) > > 2. i act like i walk away and come back to check later and if hes bad he wont see me coming (good ones just stealth and run away to wait again) > > 3. i just dont care and leave the keep to have some actual fun outside MY OWN keep > > 4. i run around the keep spammihg sight beyond sight to make him visible for him to melt back into stealth > > > > not to mention that there is always the danger to get killed by a thief in a 1v1 scenario, depending on both players skill > > > > permastealth is just a mechanic that should NEVER be in the game > if you as a warrior are alone in WvW, you are already doing something wrong when you look at WvW the full mode from a competitive point of view so l2p would already apply here. if the thief is not stupid your dead and the keep is gone anyway , nothing to do with permastealth. > but yeah WvW players are very special snowflakes that think any build should be competitive in any situation in WvW while ignoring the mode as such - that just cant happen. what you described right there is LITERALLY what it means to be overpowered, if im doing something wrong simply by not playing thief then its not a l2p issue, but a balance issue with thief, which you are still trying to defend, because ofc you are abusing this unbalanced state of thief im not saying that any nonsense build should be possible in every mode, but im also saying that its not ok to have classes that can do absurd stuff (like thief perma stealth) that others cant to a point where ppl say: "well if you are running solo warrior, you are already doing something wrong, just l2p" that should be a very clear sign to anet that they should change something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 @"Heibi.4251" have you found posts from ANET that show their meaning and intention behind adding those traps yet? Your claims are quite bold, yet so far unfounded: > @"Heibi.4251" said: > ....which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. > @"Heibi.4251" said: > You are clearly off topic when you are not addressing the problem that the trap is not working AS INTENDED BY ANET. The premise of this thread is a question to ANeT - Either fix the DE so it doesn't cancel out the Stealth Disruptor Trap, or get rid of the trap since it not longer does what it was INTENDED TO DO. > @"Heibi.4251" said: > No, I was there when they introduced it. It was intended to stop stealth from being permanent in keeps and structures. **They said so.** > @"Heibi.4251" said: > I know the reason at the time that they added it was because thieves/mesmers had so much stealth that people in WvW couldn't do effective clearing of objectives. They complained and ANeT added the trap - I remember it. Is there some sort of ANET employee -only forum that you are a part of where you witnessed all of this truth? You seem to remember it so well, you should have been able to find solid evidence by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > > > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > > > > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > > > > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > > > > > > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > > > > > > > > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > > > > > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > > > > > > > > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs > > > > > > > > yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? > > > > > > > > again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. > > > > SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. > > > > but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. > > > > > > > > attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > disabling attunements for 30seconds hits ele way harder than disabling stealth lol. you still can use your weapon abilities and weapon swap etc. the ele cant even do that. > > > and no, i didnt choose to rely on defense, i HAVE to. if you have ever played warrior you will know that its wayyy too mich of a big advantage to use defense and that in a warrior vs warrior the defense warrior will have a big lead > > > there is a clear difference between warrior and thief in building choices. > > > > > doesnt matter if one has an other choice within the same profession. you still want a trap to disable a choice. could aswell have a trap that turn warriors into white rabbits. sure you would complain, but you have the CHOICE not to play warrior. thats how much sense your argumentation makes. do i have to bring even more extreme examples? > > if SA + stealth attacks etc. is not such an important part of the thief, why do you want to disable it? i mean than you clearly have just an issue with invisibility, not with SA , not with stealth attacks or malic einteracting with them. > > > you ppl with your "l2p issue" are such a joke, its not even close to being that. > > > if i am alone as a warrior in my keep and know that there is a thief inside, i have 4 choices > > > > > > 1. i stay at the lord (and have 0 fun being afk) > > > 2. i act like i walk away and come back to check later and if hes bad he wont see me coming (good ones just stealth and run away to wait again) > > > 3. i just dont care and leave the keep to have some actual fun outside MY OWN keep > > > 4. i run around the keep spammihg sight beyond sight to make him visible for him to melt back into stealth > > > > > > not to mention that there is always the danger to get killed by a thief in a 1v1 scenario, depending on both players skill > > > > > > permastealth is just a mechanic that should NEVER be in the game > > if you as a warrior are alone in WvW, you are already doing something wrong when you look at WvW the full mode from a competitive point of view so l2p would already apply here. if the thief is not stupid your dead and the keep is gone anyway , nothing to do with permastealth. > > but yeah WvW players are very special snowflakes that think any build should be competitive in any situation in WvW while ignoring the mode as such - that just cant happen. > > what you described right there is LITERALLY what it means to be overpowered, if im doing something wrong simply by not playing thief then its not a l2p issue, but a balance issue with thief, which you are still trying to defend, because ofc you are abusing this unbalanced state of thief > > im not saying that any nonsense build should be possible in every mode, but im also saying that its not ok to have classes that can do absurd stuff (like thief perma stealth) that others cant to a point where ppl say: > "well if you are running solo warrior, you are already doing something wrong, just l2p" > that should be a very clear sign to anet that they should change something i am not saying if your running warrior you are doing something wrong. i am saying if you run solo on a warrior that is wrong. because you cant avoid groups and warrior is trash tier in open field 1 vs 1 without any envoirement to use. if i was going to play a support role in a zerg, i am also not going to choose my thief, i will use my FB. i merely want you to understand that in a competitive team mode with different professions and builds, it will allways be balanced around roles. you wont be able to fill every role with every profession and build. and for each role in a specific situation there is allways just 1 best. for solo roaming and picking your fights, that is thief. you can solo roam on your warrior all fine, but dont expect than to beat someone that has made a more optimal choice for that role. 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Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 In order to learn how to beat them, last night (while streaming) I have become a part of the problem. Perma stealth sniper. Really does remind me of the old trapper ghost thief, with a tell you are going to get hurt. Its amazing how many people freak out when you mark them (half the time I used it for stealth) and they cannot see you nor know you were there Reapers GS pull was a pain in my butt as well as pewpew soulbeasts. Other deadeyes were interesting. I beat quite a few, however daredevils I had to be careful with as well as those one shot weavers. Honestly only pewpew ranger classes, daredevils and DH's gave me a run for my money...oh and those durned holosmiths and their amount of aoe/cleave mixed with that trait that reveals when you hit something that is stealthed. 3 round burst hits hard and found it better to lead with that instead of DJ (as most decent ppl dodge DJ anyway). Speaking of which, DJ def doesnt need to be unblockable. When it hits when you have malice, it hurts a lot (5 digit damage). I also just threw a build together without looking at any meta sites (as I rarely run meta anyway). Chill really hurt me, slows my CD's on my stealth abilities and ability to re-apply stealth. I had SA and condis were almost nothing if I dont take a major burst. I can see how people enjoy it, however the novelty quickly left. Great to troll and freak small groups out. If I get bored I may run it for a few minutes, however I didnt like it enough to drop my main. All in all, I still believe its a troll/coward build. Troll for recreational use, coward for those that play it even semi seriously. Just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > All in all, I still believe its a troll/coward build. Troll for recreational use, coward for those that play it even semi seriously. no serious trolls? -.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > All in all, I still believe its a troll/coward build. Troll for recreational use, coward for those that play it even semi seriously. > no serious trolls? -.- > Nope :p Either a troll or a coward pending on usage. If you do find a balance of seriousness/troll then your toon deserves to have a baby quaggan ferociously eat it alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > All in all, I still believe its a troll/coward build. Troll for recreational use, coward for those that play it even semi seriously. Condi TB/Dire Mirages builds are *far* more cowardly xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > All in all, I still believe its a troll/coward build. Troll for recreational use, coward for those that play it even semi seriously. > > Condi TB/Dire Mirages builds are *far* more cowardly xD They cannot perma stealth,lol. My thoery is "If you can't Mirage, play condi". Its the scrub of scrub builds, however thats just my opinion (coming from someone who used condi mirage while learning about mirage...I run a non condi build now). Perma stealth makes a great troll build if only playing it for that purpose. To each their own I guess. This is just my experience trying Deadeye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > > > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > > > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > > > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > > > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > > > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > > > > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > > > > > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > > > > > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > > > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > > > > > > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > > > > > > > > > > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs > > > > > > > > > > yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? > > > > > > > > > > again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. > > > > > SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. > > > > > but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > disabling attunements for 30seconds hits ele way harder than disabling stealth lol. you still can use your weapon abilities and weapon swap etc. the ele cant even do that. > > > > and no, i didnt choose to rely on defense, i HAVE to. if you have ever played warrior you will know that its wayyy too mich of a big advantage to use defense and that in a warrior vs warrior the defense warrior will have a big lead > > > > there is a clear difference between warrior and thief in building choices. > > > > > > > doesnt matter if one has an other choice within the same profession. you still want a trap to disable a choice. could aswell have a trap that turn warriors into white rabbits. sure you would complain, but you have the CHOICE not to play warrior. thats how much sense your argumentation makes. do i have to bring even more extreme examples? > > > if SA + stealth attacks etc. is not such an important part of the thief, why do you want to disable it? i mean than you clearly have just an issue with invisibility, not with SA , not with stealth attacks or malic einteracting with them. > > > > you ppl with your "l2p issue" are such a joke, its not even close to being that. > > > > if i am alone as a warrior in my keep and know that there is a thief inside, i have 4 choices > > > > > > > > 1. i stay at the lord (and have 0 fun being afk) > > > > 2. i act like i walk away and come back to check later and if hes bad he wont see me coming (good ones just stealth and run away to wait again) > > > > 3. i just dont care and leave the keep to have some actual fun outside MY OWN keep > > > > 4. i run around the keep spammihg sight beyond sight to make him visible for him to melt back into stealth > > > > > > > > not to mention that there is always the danger to get killed by a thief in a 1v1 scenario, depending on both players skill > > > > > > > > permastealth is just a mechanic that should NEVER be in the game > > > if you as a warrior are alone in WvW, you are already doing something wrong when you look at WvW the full mode from a competitive point of view so l2p would already apply here. if the thief is not stupid your dead and the keep is gone anyway , nothing to do with permastealth. > > > but yeah WvW players are very special snowflakes that think any build should be competitive in any situation in WvW while ignoring the mode as such - that just cant happen. > > > > what you described right there is LITERALLY what it means to be overpowered, if im doing something wrong simply by not playing thief then its not a l2p issue, but a balance issue with thief, which you are still trying to defend, because ofc you are abusing this unbalanced state of thief > > > > im not saying that any nonsense build should be possible in every mode, but im also saying that its not ok to have classes that can do absurd stuff (like thief perma stealth) that others cant to a point where ppl say: > > "well if you are running solo warrior, you are already doing something wrong, just l2p" > > that should be a very clear sign to anet that they should change something > > i am not saying if your running warrior you are doing something wrong. i am saying if you run solo on a warrior that is wrong. because you cant avoid groups and warrior is trash tier in open field 1 vs 1 without any envoirement to use. if i was going to play a support role in a zerg, i am also not going to choose my thief, i will use my FB. > i merely want you to understand that in a competitive team mode with different professions and builds, it will allways be balanced around roles. you wont be able to fill every role with every profession and build. and for each role in a specific situation there is allways just 1 best. for solo roaming and picking your fights, that is thief. you can solo roam on your warrior all fine, but dont expect than to beat someone that has made a more optimal choice for that role. sure i have no problem with the fact that ill lose open field to thiefs, what i have problem with is that keeps for example are in no way open field, and no class should be able to do what thiefs can do inside of a keep, thats my opinion, if you think such gameplay is good then idk, i think its kitten and should definately NOT exist this is were thief is op imo, idc what you can do openfield, thiefs are annoying there, sure, but not as threatening as one inside your own keep where you need a little group to get a single thief out or are forced to play thief just to get him out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you repeated your argument like 4 times in this thread, thats borderline spam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also, if sa is sooo ridiculous bad, dont play it... > > > > > > > > > > > its not like everybody runs reveals anyways kitten are you talking about? reveal skills are so heavily situational that they are rarely seen and if taken should be able to shut down that stealth mechanic efficient. > > > > > > > > > > > good thiefes will just move out of range with their mobillity if they think that the reveal will punish them that much if they dont run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who runs sa anyways? most builds ive seen recently wont even touch that line. > > > > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line (attunements arent even traits, its a core mechanic that effect ele waaaay more than your little sa traitline. > > > > > > > > > > > thats just ridiculous to compare, especially the attunement bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > except that like most deadeyes, this thread here complains about, actually do run SA in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > sure core and DD mostly dont run a stealthy build..maybe that is because reveal is just a too strong counter to it and they dont have an option to remove it. > > > > > > > > > > this thread here is about the trap not working against deadeyes. > > > > > > > > > > when a deadeye runs with SA, it has a good chance that most of his major traits have something to do with stealth. in my build its 7/9 traits and i could make it 8/9. > > > > > > > > > > thats all fine as long as i have shadow meld. if i dont have it you can essentially delete my build with such a trap. and thats exactly what people here demand that shadowmeld shouldnt work against that trap. in that case no attunement is a pretty low effect on the ele in comparison. > > > > > > > > > > so yep the issue is that reveal removes not just the invisibility but also disables a ton of other traits and skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those builds didnt run sa even before lots of those reveals were implemented in the game, because sa is not needed since thief already has more than enough tools to get out of sticky situations, reveals just rly entered with pof, even in hot they were only a few and sa wasnt played aswell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > saying that anti stealth traps are op because they disable a complete traitline is just kitten rly > > > > > > > > > they are only somewhat reliable in closed spaces, like keeps for example and that rightly so since a single thief shouldnt be able to troll like 5 player in their own base with just permastealthing all day long and jumping around with his mobility. in open field they are basically useless since the thief either doesnt even set a foot into it or just jumps away for the duration of thirty seconds and then coming back because those traps are limited due to supply cost. thief player defending something like that stealthplay are just saltbags complaing that there is a form of counterplay to push them out of the enemies keep. period > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok seems there is some miss understanding here. i dont complain about the current form, because i can deal with it. i complain about people demanding that i shouldnt be able to remove it anymore. sure it is poorly implemented but for both sides. if i cant remove it, it is too strong of a counter and if i do remove it, it is useless. there is no place when dealing with this traps that offers a fun fight for anyone. > > > > > > > > oh and there is counterplay to push enemy thieves out of your keep, i never had an issue ganking a thief at lord. strange tho today the first time an other deadeye tried to do it to me. he tried for all the fight with fire keep lord and died right after. > > > > > > > > but trying to force them out of stealth is not needed and highly inefficient. cause as long as they remain in stealth they cant do anything. give them a reason to leave stealth and gank them saves a lot of time and nerves. you would need someone tho that can gank and many of those 'skilled' roamers would never do that. so its likely only bad players will try the correct strategy and they will fail if the deadeye at lord is not as bad. > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > At it's current form the trap does not work well against stealthed enemies (most likely Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye or Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage). At its core the problem is with having a counter skill vs stealth on more classes. Being able to put down the trap fast (change from 4 to 2 sec) or reduce the cost to be able to place two of them more easily would be a step in the right direction, as long as there is no change to Shadow Meld or a disadvantage to being in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will this be implemented along with the trap that stops elementalists from changing attunements for 30seconds? I think that would be fair, don't you agree? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep getting off topic. The topic of this is Stealth Disruptor Traps being useless against a deadeye's restealth, which ignores the mechanic ANeT intentionally created when they introduced the Stealth Disruptor Trap. The trap was meant to be used to counter long stealthing thieves/mesmers in structures after it was taken or breached and then closed. They were also used in open areas to take down thieves who just wouldn't leave you alone. The Mechanic is a hard 30-second reveal "Hits up to 20 targets within a range of 1200. Applies Revealed for 30 seconds. It does not matter if you are in Stealth or not." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets stick to the topic at hand. Start your own thread if you wish to create traps for other classes' traits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, i'm using an extreme example that shows how dumb the trap really is to begin with in regards to the current state of reveal and Shadow Arts - *which is more often than not picked with DE*. So if it is addressed in a manner that negatively impacts DE, wouldn't that open up the possibility of ANET introducing new neutral items that disable *other profession's traitlines* for a period of time? Just because you can't refute my argument doesn't automatically make it off-topic. So why don't you actually try to address my argument instead of dismissing it as a different topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also - can you please cite your source on how the trap was meant to be used? Because nowhere in the patch notes reflects your reason - please refrain from presenting your opinion as a fact in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > its not a mandatory line that defines the thief, like ele attunements or warrior defense line > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL. So according to you, it is OK to disable Shadow Arts for 30seconds, however Warrior defense traitline being disabled for 30seconds is NOT OK? > > > > > > > > > > Shoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > im saying that traps arent as big of an issue as you try to make them out. and yes defense for warrior is way more mandatory than thiefs sa traitline. give me one pvp/wvw based warrior meta build without defense i will give you 2 or more thief metabuilds that dont use sa lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you dont understand. its not about not having other options. when i step into a trap my build wont suddenly change to something without SA. so yes removing defense line on a trap would have the same effect on a warrior running that line. the warrior is more likely running that line , than a thief running SA indeed. but still would be the same effect for the one stepping into it and having a traitline disabled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your suggestion is : dont play with what i dont like, then you dont need to complain about the counter. that is pretty stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its not about how easy to gank they are when not in stealth or that they cant do stuff while in stealth. its the fact that as long as there is a thief in my keep he will remain a threat. potentially pulling several ppl into the keep to secure it as a single guy who just stays in stealth, he doesnt even have to be actively do something serious as long as he pulls some numbers to waste their time in their own keep while his server is attacking somewhere else. no one else can do this, even mesmer dont have the stealth uptime to rly pull that off. you send a few ppl after him and in a minute he will be dead when they see him. > > > > > > > no one else is able to do that, and if your precious little sa traitline is working so heavily with stealth its seriously not a big of a deal imo, because you activaly chose to rely that heavily on an already super strong mechanic that is good even without sa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > id happily trade defense on warrior if there was a traitline equal to that one, but there dont rly is much of a choice. you as thief have the choice. and i hope you agree atleast that the attunement comparison was total bs > > > > > > > > > > > > yes they can pull a ton of people and bind them, because people are stupid. they want to force a fight instead of bait and gank, clear l2p issue. yes against other classes you can just easily stack numbers and that will solve it all and its an issue because people have to learn another way of dealing with an opponent? > > > > > > > > > > > > again yes i choose SA, you choose defense, you choose to rely on it. reveal is a counter that can nullify more than 1 traitline, again 7/9 traits and could be 8/9 thats 2 traitlines and 1 more trait. > > > > > > SA, all my DE traits as they are malice or directly stealth based and hidden killer. i only need from SA the condi cleanse in a fight what i need much more is stealth attacks and considering my gear choice the hidden killer. > > > > > > but as said i am oke with the current form as i can remove reveal, yet you say its perfectly fine if i wasnt able to do anything about the trap? if for 30s 7 of 9 traitchoices were disabled and ontop my stealth attacks wich is my burst. disabeling only defense line is pretty low effect compared to that. yet you say its fine because i choose to ? actually only disabeling defense wouldnt be the same. ontop also your choice of elite spec + burst skills. then we are nearly at what the trap does to an SA deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > attunements are as core of a mechanic as stealth attacks and stealth in general to thief, sure many play mostly without stealth because stealth is WEAKER than mobility/evades in many situations. just like you will rarely see an elementalist on water when he tries to deal damage in PvE, he has the option its core to them, so its no issue if they cant use water in PvE, unless ofc there are eles that like to play healer in PvE. just like there are thieves who like to use their stealth interaction in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > disabling attunements for 30seconds hits ele way harder than disabling stealth lol. you still can use your weapon abilities and weapon swap etc. the ele cant even do that. > > > > > and no, i didnt choose to rely on defense, i HAVE to. if you have ever played warrior you will know that its wayyy too mich of a big advantage to use defense and that in a warrior vs warrior the defense warrior will have a big lead > > > > > there is a clear difference between warrior and thief in building choices. > > > > > > > > > doesnt matter if one has an other choice within the same profession. you still want a trap to disable a choice. could aswell have a trap that turn warriors into white rabbits. sure you would complain, but you have the CHOICE not to play warrior. thats how much sense your argumentation makes. do i have to bring even more extreme examples? > > > > if SA + stealth attacks etc. is not such an important part of the thief, why do you want to disable it? i mean than you clearly have just an issue with invisibility, not with SA , not with stealth attacks or malic einteracting with them. > > > > > you ppl with your "l2p issue" are such a joke, its not even close to being that. > > > > > if i am alone as a warrior in my keep and know that there is a thief inside, i have 4 choices > > > > > > > > > > 1. i stay at the lord (and have 0 fun being afk) > > > > > 2. i act like i walk away and come back to check later and if hes bad he wont see me coming (good ones just stealth and run away to wait again) > > > > > 3. i just dont care and leave the keep to have some actual fun outside MY OWN keep > > > > > 4. i run around the keep spammihg sight beyond sight to make him visible for him to melt back into stealth > > > > > > > > > > not to mention that there is always the danger to get killed by a thief in a 1v1 scenario, depending on both players skill > > > > > > > > > > permastealth is just a mechanic that should NEVER be in the game > > > > if you as a warrior are alone in WvW, you are already doing something wrong when you look at WvW the full mode from a competitive point of view so l2p would already apply here. if the thief is not stupid your dead and the keep is gone anyway , nothing to do with permastealth. > > > > but yeah WvW players are very special snowflakes that think any build should be competitive in any situation in WvW while ignoring the mode as such - that just cant happen. > > > > > > what you described right there is LITERALLY what it means to be overpowered, if im doing something wrong simply by not playing thief then its not a l2p issue, but a balance issue with thief, which you are still trying to defend, because ofc you are abusing this unbalanced state of thief > > > > > > im not saying that any nonsense build should be possible in every mode, but im also saying that its not ok to have classes that can do absurd stuff (like thief perma stealth) that others cant to a point where ppl say: > > > "well if you are running solo warrior, you are already doing something wrong, just l2p" > > > that should be a very clear sign to anet that they should change something > > > > i am not saying if your running warrior you are doing something wrong. i am saying if you run solo on a warrior that is wrong. because you cant avoid groups and warrior is trash tier in open field 1 vs 1 without any envoirement to use. if i was going to play a support role in a zerg, i am also not going to choose my thief, i will use my FB. > > i merely want you to understand that in a competitive team mode with different professions and builds, it will allways be balanced around roles. you wont be able to fill every role with every profession and build. and for each role in a specific situation there is allways just 1 best. for solo roaming and picking your fights, that is thief. you can solo roam on your warrior all fine, but dont expect than to beat someone that has made a more optimal choice for that role. > > sure i have no problem with the fact that ill lose open field to thiefs, what i have problem with is that keeps for example are in no way open field, and no class should be able to do what thiefs can do inside of a keep, thats my opinion, if you think such gameplay is good then idk, i think its kitten and should definately NOT exist > > this is were thief is op imo, idc what you can do openfield, thiefs are annoying there, sure, but not as threatening as one inside your own keep where you need a little group to get a single thief out or are forced to play thief just to get him out a mesmer or ranger(depending on structure) is often better at ganking the deadeye than another thief. when i have an opposing roaming guild on the map with supportes an such it is nearly impossibile with pug solo roamers to kill them unless you are alot better than them, just because they got supporters and supportable builds, the pugs could switch aswell to different builds and professions just to beat them, get farmed, get waaay too many numbers or ask a roaming guild of their own to handle them. that basically the same options with a thief in your keep. 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Ubi.4136 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 We are back to the same problem we had when thieves would just dagger 5 the keep walls to stay hidden forever inside. Res dead teammates, destroy siege, etc. Stealth traps were added as a way to prevent that. But, deadeye can basically do the same thing again, as the traps' reveal can be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 > @"Ubi.4136" said: > We are back to the same problem we had when thieves would just dagger 5 the keep walls to stay hidden forever inside. Res dead teammates, destroy siege, etc. _Stealth traps were added as a way to prevent that_. But, deadeye can basically do the same thing again, as the traps' reveal can be removed. you are confusing the intent of it with your usage of them. they never stated what those traps were for, wich allways has been an issue of the traps. because if you look at the trap design, setup etc. it looks like it is to counter a large groups stealth engage but thats rarely worth a trap as large groups mostly just stealth for a few seconds. people however still used the traps to hunt single stealth reliant opponents in large groups, because they figuered when they step into such a trap they are easy to kill as they cant fight back anymore. but they were never good for that anyway. now you want to hunt a thief that is in your keep, thats fine. for hunting there are 2 ways to go about it either you stalk your prey, maybe chase it and kill it or you bait it. gw2 doesnt have tools ingame to hunt a stealthed targed by stalking it, for that you need an effect to see stealthed targets. reveal effects are not fit for that as they are allways applied to the thief so he can avoid them. even scrappers spamming detection pulse, i mean the thief will see the scrapper coming and can stay out of the range. i will mostly see you place the trap and can just not step into it. i also never understood minstrel guards spamming staff 1 throughout the keep, because i can easily just stay out of their hits and if they hit they wont hurt. so what do we have left currently as an option is baiting the thief. you can bait a thief with a ton of things. you said he is in there trying to res a teammate? then that corpse is a bait, he is attacking siege / players / npcs ? that is also bait. he is doing anything in there aside from twiddeling his thumbs in stealth? then you can use it to kill him. the problem is when you are in ther with 10 people looking for him, his standing in stealth doing nothing is already so efficient, there is no need to do anything else. what do you say to this suggestion: remove all reveals from skills, only reveal source is selfinflicted from attacking. but when you are in stealth you can see stealthed opponents. many classes have options to apply stealth to themselves or even allies. this would make it easier to hunt such a thief. but it wouldnt lock the thief out of their build like reveal does. thief vs thief fights would also be interesting because once you hit the other thief you drop out of stealth :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > many classes have options to apply stealth to themselves or even allies. this would make it easier to hunt such a thief. but it wouldnt lock the thief out of their build like reveal does. thief vs thief fights would also be interesting because once you hit the other thief you drop out of stealth :3 3 classes outside thief can do it: Mesmer can apply stealth to itself and to others, Ranger can apply stealth to itself with one skill(lasts 3s), and Engi which has stealth Gyro(lasts 5s). i wouldnt say thats many classes, and..outside of mesmer not that great of a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offair.2563 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > @"Celsith.2753" said: > > > @"Heibi.4251" said: > > > > > > You are clearly off topic when you are not addressing the problem that the trap is not working AS INTENDED BY ANET. The premise of this thread is a question to ANeT - Either fix the DE so it doesn't cancel out the Stealth Disruptor Trap, or get rid of the trap since it not longer does what it was INTENDED TO DO. > > > > > > > > > > We don't really know what Anet intended though. When it was introduced I assumed it was to help find mesmers hiding keeps. Now I find it a valuable tool to stop zergs using a mes to portal themselves into SMC cloaking waters to stealth bomb. I don't recall Anet ever saying what situations they had in mind when it was introduced. > > No, I was there when they introduced it. It was intended to stop stealth from being permanent in keeps and structures. They said so. ^This. Anet putted those stealth traps so the players had some counters to perma stealthed thieves/mesmers. However they became pointless if some builds can simply remove the reveal, seems really counter productive to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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