Aquatic sylvari?

[Zola.6197]

Based on what we know of the sylvari origins, do you think it is plausible a seed could have taken root in the oceans or a large source of fresh water?

 

I would love to find a group of sylvari that broke off or evolved differently in the water (similar to Olmakhan charr) - their aesthetic could be inspired by sea plants/creatures and have a merfolk look about them. An underwater sylvari society could have such breathtaking design potential... And could fit very well into an expansion set in the Unending Ocean. ;)

 

There’s nothing in the lore to suggest aquatic sylvari are/could be, but them being intended dragon minions doesn’t rule out the possibility either, no? They could have developed their own independent society similar to the grove sylvari, and even before HoTs it was hinted that other trees exist out there (not to mention the dead grove in VB).

 

I am forgetting though if the spirit of the pale tree/the dream is ever explained? I’ll have to check the wiki once I’m off work.

[Kodokuna Akuma.9570]

Its entirely possible, nature has a habit of finding a way, its unlikely that a seed would germinate in an ocean as surrouned by mostly vast quantities of salt water and little else but sand makes for a poor enviroment to aquire the needed "food" to survive. a Lake could be done, with the blighting trees roots being in a firm layer of soil and spanning up and out of the lake, the tree could have acess to both needed sunlight, minerals in the soil. An issue could be drowing of the plant but with the size the tree grows too this could be fine. An more ideal process for this would be for a seed to sprout in a ditch or depression in the ground and somepoint during the saplying phase water started to just pile up around it essentially when reaching its more mature sizes a large "lake" has formed around it.

 

Then again this whole explanation for and against if its possible can just be circumvented with "because magic", an enviroment with poor magical energy / acess to ley energy could be a poor place for the tree but the reverse is true an enviroment with abundance of magical and ley energy could easily allow the growth and adaptation of the tree and a variant race of sylvari are thus born tailored for their home being primarily underwater.

[Oglaf.1074]

Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

[Zola.6197]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

 

I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

>

> I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

 

But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

 

 

[Zola.6197]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

> >

> > I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

>

> But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

>

>

 

Is it established that mordy’s connection to the Sylvari/Mordrem was global? Or did it seem to have a less absolute range extending from the jungle?

 

And do we have any indication what happens to Mordrem after their dragon died? All it takes is a little writing magic on the creative team’s part to show recovery from the Mordrem state is possible, even if it’s years down the line.

 

Obviously there’s nothing to support this, but there could be special circumstances for any number of “Sylvari” off shoots outside the grove or jungle that allowed them to resist. We’ve only really seen one example in the grove Sylvari. There could be other pale tree/dream-like entitles?

[Kodokuna Akuma.9570]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

> >

> > I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

>

> But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

>

>

 

You could take the condition of distance and contact, like how children are impressionable during youth, If the "new pale tree" is not contacted by modremoth or "ceased" then it just takes the cycled of growth in its "genetics", the pale trees purpose was to produce the sylvari from a production standpoint, the dream was cultivated to allow for the production of the personalities / intelligence of the produced product aka sylvari. without modremoth contacting the tree and seizing influence over it from creation, the tree would naturally produce its own "personality" and protections from outside influence. This can be proven with the Pale tree as while she was much younger the interaction with Ventari lead to the pale tree growing up with a sense of preservation of life and non violence.

 

Thus with modremoth dead and the potential distance, unawareness of the trees location or even area circumstances like magical isolation from modremoth or a similar circumstance as with ventari it is quite possible.

[Oglaf.1074]

Well if we’re going by the most current state of the game with Mordremoth dead then I guess they would just be feral, lost Mordrem (like the Risen nowadays).

 

Where he alive however I think my point still stands as dragon minions don’t really seem to need direct guidance to be hostile to everything and everyone around them.

[Zola.6197]

@"Oglaf.1074" I think your points stand up, just offering hypothetical circumstances that could skirt around that from a writing/creative perspective. There’s some wiggle room.

 

@"Kodokuna Akuma.9570" I think either is plausible really - the nature of the “seeds” could involve a sort of magical adaption. The scientific approach is really interesting too though. A Sylvari city/tree half submerged, half above surface? That’d be cool.

 

 

[starhunter.6015]

This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

[Zola.6197]

> @"starhunter.6015" said:

> This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

 

I am still carrying that torch too... Just holding onto the insane hope they'll resolve that thread someday.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

 

> But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

 

Yes and no. Something certainly happened to protect the sylvari, but we don't know _what._ The Dream is one possibility- although we don't know how the Pale Tree tapped into it, so there's no saying whether the other trees wouldn't be able to- but another, one that's been batted around for a long time, is the Forgotten ritual, the only thing we know that can grant a dragon minion free will. If that's the case, it's likely the entire cave full of seeds, and every tree and sylvari grown from them, is also protected.

 

 

 

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> Is it established that mordy’s connection to the Sylvari/Mordrem was global? Or did it seem to have a less absolute range extending from the jungle?

For a... certain value of established. One of the writers tweeted that she imagined that it'd be global, since it's telepathic and not an actual sound, but she followed that up by inviting roleplayers to go with whichever version works best for their character.

 

> And do we have any indication what happens to Mordrem after their dragon died? All it takes is a little writing magic on the creative team’s part to show recovery from the Mordrem state is possible, even if it’s years down the line.

 

For the Mordrem as a whole, only that they're still around. For sylvari in particular? That some Mordrem (apparently the corrupted sylvari, since it's linked to hearing Mordremoth's voice) had ['come unhinged,'](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eir%27s_Memorial_in_Hoelbrak) and also... [this fella.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Solitary_Sylvari) It looks like at least some of them are already recovering.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > Wouldn’t they just “devolve” into Mordrem..?

> > I don’t see why they’d have to? Perhaps they were outside Mordy’s sphere of influence, or did not entirely succumb like the grove Sylvari - some resisted the call even if they heard it.

> But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

 

That "special circumstances" was the Pale Tree being purified, and since Malyck is similarly sylvari-esque, means the whole cave Ronan found was purified seeds. So if other seeds from that cave got planted, they'd likely produce purified minions, like sylvari, as well. The main difference would be the lack of a Dream and teachings of Ventari, which would basically result in more Malycks.

 

One theory of mine is that the Tower of Nightmares was one such seed. Its final appearance is fairly similar to the Vinewrath, but as a stalk rather than a flower, it produced a sylvari-looking krait, was given as a seed to the krait by Scarlet, produced mind altering effects on the krait leading them to being brainwashing, and Marjory suggested it had a personality of its own. It is likely that the Tower of Nightmares is basically a "Pale Tree grown for evil", just as the Pale Tree was "grown for good" by Ventari and Malyck's Tree was a "Pale Tree grown through neutrality" (by all little lore we have, it seems that tree grew up without influence). All appear are ultimately free from Mordremoth, and create stuff closer to each other than to other mordrem.

 

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > But they are Mordem by default. Only the special circumstances of the Sylvari took them down a different path.

> Is it established that mordy’s connection to the Sylvari/Mordrem was global? Or did it seem to have a less absolute range extending from the jungle?

 

Not explicitly, but some minor dialogue during Festival of the Four Winds does suggest that all sylvari felt the call, regardless of distance.

 

Zephyrite: Mother says the sylvari were the ones who destroyed our sanctum and fought for the Elder Dragon...

Citizen: We did not participate by choice. The call was too strong for many.

Zephyrite: Mother says we control our own destinies. She doesn't trust sylvari anymore.

Citizen: Then it must be our destiny to regain that trust. We owe your people that much.

 

This "Citizen" sylvari looked like any other typical townie sylvari, and not a member of the Pact. This suggests it went far further than just the Maguuma Wastes. Whether it reached LA or even the Grove is unclear, since [this NPC remarks on the lack of sylvari reaction in Brisban](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Researcher_Eullo#Dialogue) between S2 and HoT, when the call already happened. It's really hard to tell the definitive value of things since they didn't alter old maps beyond the mordrem invasions themselves.

 

> And do we have any indication what happens to Mordrem after their dragon died? All it takes is a little writing magic on the creative team’s part to show recovery from the Mordrem state is possible, even if it’s years down the line.

Aside from Rox's comment in Season 3 about them being "confused" without Mordremoth's voice, there's [this guy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Solitary_Sylvari) similarly from Festival of the Four Winds.

 

> Obviously there’s nothing to support this, but there could be special circumstances for any number of “Sylvari” off shoots outside the grove or jungle that allowed them to resist. We’ve only really seen one example in the grove Sylvari. There could be other pale tree/dream-like entitles?

I will add that Mordremoth's Call was sent via the Dream of Dreams. Sylvari like Malyck who never had a connection wouldn't hear the Call, and sylvari who distanced themselves like Soundless may have heard it quieter thus easier to resist, possibly.

[Zola.6197]

Thanks, all of this is great information!

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> I will add that Mordremoth's Call was sent via the Dream of Dreams. Sylvari like Malyck who never had a connection wouldn't hear the Call, and sylvari who distanced themselves like Soundless may have heard it quieter thus easier to resist, possibly.

 

I was actually reading up on the soundless, and it appears they might actually be _[more](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soundless "more")_ vulnerable based on the implications of the Pale Tree:

 

"During the course of the Living Story it is stated by the Avatar of the Tree that by separating themselves from her and the Dream the Soundless in turn reject her protection, which leaves them vulnerable to the corruption of the Elder Dragons. Most clearly this has been seen with the rise of Mordremoth, who had corrupted soundless sylvari such as Aerin and Scarlet Briar (whom while not officially stated to be Soundless was similar to the Soundless in how she separated herself from the Dream and rejected the protection of the Pale Tree)."

 

So it seems the Dream does protect the grove sylvari somewhat, and other trees without it might be more susceptible. Still, there's enough evidence to suggest there could be many non-grove sylvari/trees that resisted the call, with or without a dream.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> Thanks, all of this is great information!

>

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > I will add that Mordremoth's Call was sent via the Dream of Dreams. Sylvari like Malyck who never had a connection wouldn't hear the Call, and sylvari who distanced themselves like Soundless may have heard it quieter thus easier to resist, possibly.

>

> I was actually reading up on the soundless, and it appears they might actually be _[more](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soundless "more")_ vulnerable based on the implications of the Pale Tree:

>

> "During the course of the Living Story it is stated by the Avatar of the Tree that by separating themselves from her and the Dream the Soundless in turn reject her protection, which leaves them vulnerable to the corruption of the Elder Dragons. Most clearly this has been seen with the rise of Mordremoth, who had corrupted soundless sylvari such as Aerin and Scarlet Briar (whom while not officially stated to be Soundless was similar to the Soundless in how she separated herself from the Dream and rejected the protection of the Pale Tree)."

>

> So it seems the Dream does protect the grove sylvari somewhat, and other trees without it might be more susceptible. Still, there's enough evidence to suggest there could be many non-grove sylvari/trees that resisted the call, with or without a dream.

 

The dialogue with the Pale Tree implies that the Soundless might be vulnerable to dragon corruption. It should be noted that the Mordrem Guard _were not corrupted_, nor was the call a form of dragon corruption, but more traditional mind control and atypical mind fuckery.

 

Scarlet was made vulnerable due to entering Omadd's Machine and bearing witness to the Elder Dragons directly, which the Commander did as well ("I saw a dragon. It...um... [...] It came at me." - [The Machine](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Machine "The Machine")). It's not really clear how Aerin became vulnerable - it really feels like Anet was going one direction (Soundless being most susceptible to Mordremoth's call) but then did a 180 (Dreamers being most susceptible to Mordremoth's call) that wiki article was last edited during S2, before we learned the nature of Mordremoth's call; though there was an interview which stated that if the Pale Tree or Dream pushed hard enough, then they can get through to a Soundless as they only "dampen" not get rid of the connection. So by extension, if Mordremoth pushed his call hard enough, he could get to Soundless too.

[Zola.6197]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086"

Ah, I guess keeping the wiki updated is a big undertaking.

 

Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

There's not really much lore on it beyond what we got told with [The Movement of the World](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Sylvari), and restatements of that info, aside from Malyck's existence.

[Teratus.2859]

Hehehe Seaweed Sylvai would be funny.

[Edelweiss.4261]

I kind of hope this becomes a thing somehow. Coral sylvari! Coral! This could easily parallel the Olmakhan village.

[Zola.6197]

> @"Edelweiss.4261" said:

> I kind of hope this becomes a thing somehow. Coral sylvari! Coral! This could easily parallel the Olmakhan village.

 

I hadn’t even thought of coral based Sylvari! That’d be awesome too.

 

 

[Fenom.9457]

Yes im down for anything to add in the water

[Ephemiel.5694]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

> There's not really much lore on it beyond what we got told with [The Movement of the World](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Sylvari), and restatements of that info, aside from Malyck's existence.

 

Doesn't the wiki itself state that it was Ronan and Ventari's attitudes and philosophies what guided the Pale Tree into what it was? At no point does it even suggest that the cave had purified seeds and it even says it was protected by plant creatures [who we can easily assume were Mordrem].

 

The whole point of Malyck was that he came from a tree that had no inspiration from either Ronan or Ventari nor a connection to the Dream, yet somehow was still a normal Sylvari just like the ones from the Pale Tree. Thanks to Heart of Thorns, we can kinda assume this means that Sylvari are the "default" creature that comes from these seeds while the Mordrem are merely them being fully controlled by Mordremoth.

 

Of course, this begs the question as to why Sylvari seem to come as normal creatures when the seeds, i assume, were made by Mordremoth. This implies he gave the Sylvari free will......for some reason.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > > Are there any wiki pages that go into the purified seed/cave that Ronan stumbled upon? I'm having trouble finding info.

> > There's not really much lore on it beyond what we got told with [The Movement of the World](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Sylvari), and restatements of that info, aside from Malyck's existence.

>

> Doesn't the wiki itself state that it was Ronan and Ventari's attitudes and philosophies what guided the Pale Tree into what it was? At no point does it even suggest that the cave had purified seeds and it even says it was protected by plant creatures [who we can easily assume were Mordrem].

>

> The whole point of Malyck was that he came from a tree that had no inspiration from either Ronan or Ventari nor a connection to the Dream, yet somehow was still a normal Sylvari just like the ones from the Pale Tree. Thanks to Heart of Thorns, we can kinda assume this means that Sylvari are the "default" creature that comes from these seeds while the Mordrem are merely them being fully controlled by Mordremoth.

>

> Of course, this begs the question as to why Sylvari seem to come as normal creatures when the seeds, i assume, were made by Mordremoth. This implies he gave the Sylvari free will......for some reason.

 

You're talking to the guy that likely wrote that wiki article. Along with a few other lore enthusiast players.

 

The game does suggest that Mordremoths call gets weaker the further away you are, so presumably there's a line somewhere where it fades away into nothing. This is evidenced by dialogue with Canach in the HoT story. The closer Canach gets to Mordremoth, the louder the call gets. Although it's never expressly stated whether that's because of distance or simply the call getting stronger over time/consumed magic.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> Doesn't the wiki itself state that it was Ronan and Ventari's attitudes and philosophies what guided the Pale Tree into what it was? At no point does it even suggest that the cave had purified seeds and it even says it was protected by plant creatures [who we can easily assume were Mordrem].

Ronan and Ventari guided it morally, but they did jack for magic. Dragon minions can't be made good through kind words and deeds. This is stated time and time again throughout the story, those who are corrupted or made by corruption are enslaved to the Elder Dragons' will. They have no willpower of their own, no free will.

 

Sadly, most overarching sylvari articles on the wiki pre-date release, sometimes with only a few tidbits here and there of newer lore, but very few are post-HoT unless they're mordrem related articles. The same goes for most of the articles made pre-release. I know @"Kossage.9072" has been slowly working on improving the wiki's lore articles, as have I, but it's hard to keep track of which ones are how much out of date.

 

Off the top of my head I know the Sylvari, Asura, and Soundless, are all pre-HoT out of date, if not pre-release. I've made note of this and intend to review and update them over the weekend (if you notice more, please let me know!). The unfortunate truth is that there are very few lore-interested people who edit the wiki, and there are some off-and-on editors who _think_ they know lore but toss in their own headcanon and theories as if proven fact.

 

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> The whole point of Malyck was that he came from a tree that had no inspiration from either Ronan or Ventari nor a connection to the Dream, yet somehow was still a normal Sylvari just like the ones from the Pale Tree. Thanks to Heart of Thorns, we can kinda assume this means that Sylvari are the "default" creature that comes from these seeds while the Mordrem are merely them being fully controlled by Mordremoth.

>

> Of course, this begs the question as to why Sylvari seem to come as normal creatures when the seeds, i assume, were made by Mordremoth. This implies he gave the Sylvari free will......for some reason.

 

The "default" would be normal, non-magical trees based on [the Ancient Tree](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Tree) and [the Great Tree](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Great_Tree), both being massive trees of completely normal design (possibly [stonewood](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Stonewood)) that are being slowly corrupted into Blighting Trees. Sylvari are dragon minions, so they're corrupted-then-freed based on the fact that they're of free will. Their free will means that the Pale Tree, at some point in time, got purified. Since Ventari and Ronan had no such magic, and Malyck was also freed, it had to be before Ronan found the seed.

 

We don't know how or when the Pale Tree and Malyck (or his tree) was purified, just that they were, based on the three simple facts I've stated: 1) dragon minions have no free will unless purified (which is very hard to do), 2) sylvari are dragon minions, 3) sylvari have free will.

 

 

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> The game does suggest that Mordremoths call gets weaker the further away you are, so presumably there's a line somewhere where it fades away into nothing. This is evidenced by dialogue with Canach in the HoT story. The closer Canach gets to Mordremoth, the louder the call gets. Although it's never expressly stated whether that's because of distance or simply the call getting stronger over time/consumed magic.

Canach and the sylvari PC also say that the call is quieter in Rata Novus, for whatever that means. I mean, we don't see any sylvari-style Mordrem east of the Silverwastes, but those maps are also mostly timelocked to 1325 AE with a few changes for Seasons 1 and 2. We know the call gets stronger going into the jungle, and especially closer to Mordremoth, but the strength of the call on Central Tyria is unknown.

 

I don't know where Konig got his info that the call infected the Dream, but Season 2 outright said that the Soundless were most vulnerable to becoming Mordrem until the Pact got attacked. Although many (myself included) thought that the call might be related to Nightmare, the courtiers made it pretty clear they didn't answer the call any more willingly than Pact soldiers. So, Mordremoth spoke to the mind to all sylvari, saying words only they could hear and understand, and only through the strength of will did any of them resist. That is all we have confirmed and stated in the game to my knowledge.