Aquatic sylvari?

[Zola.6197]

Hmm then it sounds like the seeds being "purified" is little more than a theory right now. Not beyond the realm of possibility, but also not confirmed anywhere in the game/lore.

 

Obviously we know the Forgotten could purify dragon minions, but until the game confirms it I'm not comfortable taking "purified seeds" as gospel truth.

 

The default Sylvari could simply be an incubation period, similar to the "bud" of a flower waiting to bloom into a mordrem. Or it could be that Mordremoth lied and the Sylvari, while susceptible, were never really his. Or that in the 10,000 years he slept, the seeds essentially became a blank slate without his influence. Neutrally aligned and prone to adapting to whatever influences it.

 

How that explains Malyck isn't clear, but honestly the more I think about this the more I think the writers might have just accidentally created an unintentional plot/lore hole... What makes the most sense right now is that Malyck was a sleeper agent sent by the rousing Mordremoth to collect information; his mind/body was created to mimick that of the Sylvari to better blend and gain their trust. Then he runs off into the Maguuma fully believing he's returning to his people when in truth he's instinctively running back to Mordremoth.

 

I guess it does make sense that any given tree would default the "fruit" it bears to whatever species is most prominent in its area. Since the Pale Tree grew from Ronan's influence (and was buried on human graves), it makes sense for it's fruit to resemble humans. Malyck's tree might have grown in similar conditions, but say... A seed that made it into the ocean and adapted, it might make Sylvari/pre-pubescent modrem that look more fish-like or krait-like (or quaggan-like lololol) if those species were dominant where it took root. And we do know there were mordrem of various shapes, and also sylvari of different shapes (like the sylvan hounds).

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> I don't know where Konig got his info that the call infected the Dream, but Season 2 outright said that the Soundless were most vulnerable to becoming Mordrem until the Pact got attacked.

 

"Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and _these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s_ influence."

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

 

Pact Commander: Then we destroy the root: Mordremoth's mind. Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream. That's our target.

Canach: Sound strategy, Commander. Turn the tables and _attack the dragon the same way it's been attacking us_? Brilliant.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_lair

 

What's said in Season 2 is this:

 

Avatar of the Pale Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.

Pact Commander: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.

Avatar of the Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call#Dialogue

 

Pact Commander: Sylvari were invulnerable to corruption. But not with Mordremoth. Why?

Ogden Stonehealer: You refer to Scarlet and Aerin. Similar symptoms. Yes.

Ogden Stonehealer: I am no expert, but they're immature as a race. Their concept of nightmare and Dream is simplistic at best.

Ogden Stonehealer: Too black and white, too unsophisticated to explain the changes affecting some of them.

Ogden Stonehealer: The Pale Tree is said to protect them from the corruption of the other dragons. They both rejected her, no?

Ogden Stonehealer: It makes sense that sylvari would be vulnerable to Mordremoth, a plant-based being like themselves.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

 

What this is saying is that the Pale Tree protects against dragon corruption, but Mordremoth can corrupt sylvari, suggesting this is due to the whole "Elder Plant Dragon and sylvari are plants" thing, with the suggestion that the Soundless are vulnerable to dragon corruption. Since this is pre-reveal, it's only half truths since the origin of sylvari is left unclear, and people took that to mean that Mordremoth can influence them because sylvari are its minions, and that other Elder Dragons cannot corrupt them because they're already dragon minions. But what we're actually shown instead is that the Dream is what protects sylvari against dragon corruption, and Mordremoth uses that protection to influence them via the Call - the Call is **not** dragon corruption, as Mordrem Guard can return as we see both in [buried Insight](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buried_Insight#Dialogue) and with the Festival of the Four Winds' [solitary Sylvari](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Solitary_Sylvari) (though moreso the first instance, since risen have shown a capability to become independent post-dragon-mortem too).

 

But the fact the call is not corruption is likely why all the HoT promotions constantly call it "Mordremoth's influence" and not "Mordremoth's corruption". Only Tyrians who do not know the full situation called it corruption (e.g., unreliable narrator).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> Hmm then it sounds like the seeds being "purified" is little more than a theory right now. Not beyond the realm of possibility, but also not confirmed anywhere in the game/lore.

>

> Obviously we know the Forgotten could purify dragon minions, but until the game confirms it I'm not comfortable taking "purified seeds" as gospel truth.

>

> The default Sylvari could simply be an incubation period, similar to the "bud" of a flower waiting to bloom into a mordrem. Or it could be that Mordremoth lied and the Sylvari, while susceptible, were never really his. Or that in the 10,000 years he slept, the seeds essentially became a blank slate without his influence. Neutrally aligned and prone to adapting to whatever influences it.

 

The first isn't the case, as we see mordrem coming out of Blighting Trees without any "incubation period".

 

The second isn't the case, because it wasn't only Mordremoth who made this claim, but Wynne and the Pale Tree, the former got this knowledge from the Dream which isn't part of Mordremoth but fights against him.

 

And the third isn't the case because the Elder Dragons each leave a "herald" champion to hasten its awakening when the time is right - the Great Destroyer, Drakkar, Glint, and for Zhaitan, likely the Giganticus Lupicus (the only confirmed champion to be from the previous dragonrise) - for some reason, Mordremoth didn't have a herald but got lucky with Scarlet which he manipulated into filling the role. The fact that dragon minions **have no free will** means that they simply _cannot_ adapt to whatever influences it, and the Elder Dragon sleeping doesn't influence this lack of free will.

 

The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it **had** to have happened.

[Rognik.2579]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086"

Now that you lay it all out, I see why we've long had differenting views on this. Seems you've got a bit of the headcanon syndrome yourself.

 

Yes, everything you say is factual: the sylvari are immune to corruption by the other dragons and only Mordremoth can turn sylvari into its minions, which we later learn is him more reclaiming his minions from... whatever it is they are now. Even saying sylvari come from a purified seed is assumption, as we have no idea why the Pale Tree didn't start spitting out dragon minions those 25 years ago.

 

As for the Call, it's not infecting the Dream, at least we can't assume that from the comment. Sylvari have had Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts before, which means they are compelled to a single goal until it is completed. When Mordremoth's call went out, this new compulsion to all sylvari, many assumed it to be a new Hunt. Perhaps the Hunts were how Mordremoth directed his minions in the past, but that got interrupted. Perhaps all dragon minions have Hunts of their own, but we only see them want to kill everything, so we can't differentiate it from general mania.

 

Either way, sylvari from the Pale Tree, and Malyck from wherever he hails, showed no sign of being minions before Mordremoth awoke thanks to Scarlet Briar's action. Even her behavior isn't consistent with being a minion, since she was appropriately vague about her true intentions. We assume she wanted to wake the dragon, and many suggest she wanted to kill it; in trying to stop her, the former actually happen. Now that Mordremoth is dead, sylvari of all ilk can live their lives as they did when they first emerged 25 years ago. Perhaps if we ever discover Malyck's tree, this discussion can become much less hypothetical.

[Oglaf.1074]

Scarlet was an oddity indeed. Definitely seemed to have been a “when you gaze headlong into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you”-situation rather than her “going Mordrem”.

 

Her fate was very tragic, very Lovecraftian. I liked it a lot from a writing perspective.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it **had** to have happened.

 

Is it entirely ruled out that the seeds, which the Pale Tree grew from, weren't actually corrupted by Mordremoth to begin with? AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce. Thus, they wouldn't produce seeds. If that was the case, no Purification ritual would be necessary.

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it **had** to have happened.

>

> Is it entirely ruled out that the seeds, which the Pale Tree grew from, weren't actually corrupted by Mordremoth to begin with? AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce. Thus, they wouldn't produce seeds. If that was the case, no Purification ritual would be necessary.

 

Wynne's Dream confirms that sylvari were always meant to be minions of Mordremoth. Of that, there is no doubt. Why they didn't come out screaming his name or slaughtering the asura (instead of the other way around) is still unclear. From past evidence, we presume the seed must be purified of dragon taint or were otherwise protected from his control.

 

I'm still of the mind that the Dream is deeply rooted to the nature of sylvari, and why Malyck didn't even have his own separate Dream, I don't know. Hopefully this gets revisited, but there is still much of the charr and norn that should be explored before we return to more sylvari stuff, unless freeing minions becomes the focus of a chapter.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

 

> AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce.

 

That's... been a subject of debate in the past. The claim is made by your order mentor during the skritt arc of the PS, and they have considerable expertise in the field... but, on the other hand, it's established a few times in later arcs that there was quite a bit about Elder Dragons in general, and Zhaitan in particular, that the orders didn't know, and we certainly see a number of minions producing eggs that then hatch corrupted young. Some of these cases, it can be argued, were pregnant when they were corrupted (Glint, a couple risen drakes), but with others the sheer number we see producing eggs (every risen spider, a staggering number of branded devourers) makes it hard to argue they all just so happened to be pregnant. You could argue gameplay mechanics for the spiders, but the devourers are harder, since they don't add anything to the combat.

 

At this point, I think there are reasonable cases to be made for both arguments. I lean towards the reproduction side, myself, but only because it most easily resolves the inconsistencies, not because the logic behind it is necessarily stronger.

[Overlord RainyDay.2084]

Maybe for the soundless, their distance from the dream made it harder for them to hear the call, but without either the Nightmare court's ethos of "I do what I want, you're not the boss of me," or the Pale Tree's guidance in the dream, they had little defense against Mordremoth when he did reach them. For Scarlet and some of the others, Mordremoth's voice was described as being hard to distinguish from one's own inner voice, which I would imagine makes it very easy to get confused. Mordremoth never really pulls that on the player, but maybe by the beginning of HoT, with a large number of sylvari already turned and the blighting trees coming online, he no longer cared about subtlety.

 

As for the original thread topic, aquatic sylvari would be cool, and I think it could be possible. There's always that large, mysterious lake north west of forsaken thicket. Malyck arrived on a river that flowed from the North, right? Regardless of how the Pale Tree's seed got purified, it did happen, and that seed wasn't alone. There could be other uncontacted trees elsewhere in the world that were shielded from the call by distance or magical protection (We know from Rata Novus, even large ley-line nodes right on Mordremoth's doorstep can be shielded well enough for the call to be only a whisper). My personal theory is that the forgotten are the key to all of this. We knew they knew the purification rituals, and we know they were active in the Maguuma region in between GW 1 and 2, so they could have purified the blighting tree seeds and distributed them around. They also still had a presence in the crystal desert, so if they did have a hand in the Pale tree's purification, they could have taken other seeds as far as Elona as some kind of contingency plan. A self-sustaining army of warriors, ready to fight the moment they're born, and immune to the corruption of 5/6 dragons would suit the Forgotten's purposes perfectly.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086"

> Now that you lay it all out, I see why we've long had differenting views on this. Seems you've got a bit of the headcanon syndrome yourself.

>

> Yes, everything you say is factual: the sylvari are immune to corruption by the other dragons and only Mordremoth can turn sylvari into its minions, which we later learn is him more reclaiming his minions from... whatever it is they are now. Even saying sylvari come from a purified seed is assumption, as we have no idea why the Pale Tree didn't start spitting out dragon minions those 25 years ago.

 

How is it an assumption to say the sylvari are purified?

 

It's 1) A stated fact that all dragon minions have no free will. 2) A stated fact that sylvari have free will. 3) A stated fact that Elder Dragons in hibernation does not affect the first fact.

 

The method of "purification" (a term used for lack of a better word) is unknown, as is the time, but if it never happened, then fact 2, that the sylvari have free will, should never occur and would be a massive plot hole.

 

It is literally (and I mean that by its dictionary definition and not the "I actually mean metaphorically" definition) stated time and time again in the game that dragon minions cannot simply be "made good". There are **two** and only two reasons a dragon minion, which includes sylvari, can gain free will: 1) they, or their maker, was freed from dragon control by an external magical source (of which we only know three confirmed methods - the Forgotten ritual, something among what we did to Mawdreys, and the system used on Kralkatorrite Ingots), or 2) the Elder Dragon dies (as shown by the risen in Siren's Landing).

 

It is also established, I say for posterity, that even if freed (by any method), the dragon minion can and likely will continue their Elder Dragon.

 

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> As for the Call, it's not infecting the Dream, at least we can't assume that from the comment. Sylvari have had Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts before, which means they are compelled to a single goal until it is completed. When Mordremoth's call went out, this new compulsion to all sylvari, many assumed it to be a new Hunt. Perhaps the Hunts were how Mordremoth directed his minions in the past, but that got interrupted. Perhaps all dragon minions have Hunts of their own, but we only see them want to kill everything, so we can't differentiate it from general mania.

 

It's outright stated that Mordremoth sent the call through the Dream. Both in articles preceding HoT's release and in the game itself.

 

Also, you're making the mistake of presuming that the Dream is the dragon minion hive mind when it isn't. Not only is there no evidence to suggest mordrem have a connection to the Dream, but it is confirmed that Malyck has no connection, that the Dream fights against Mordremoth (the sylvari PC was given a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth during The World Summit), and [that non-dragon minion entities are connected to the Dream in the same manner as the Pale Tree](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Stag).

 

You say it is all "headcanon syndrome" but where's the theorycrafting at? I've just been restating what's been told to us.

 

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> Either way, sylvari from the Pale Tree, and Malyck from wherever he hails, showed no sign of being minions before Mordremoth awoke thanks to Scarlet Briar's action. Even her behavior isn't consistent with being a minion, since she was appropriately vague about her true intentions. We assume she wanted to wake the dragon, and many suggest she wanted to kill it; in trying to stop her, the former actually happen. Now that Mordremoth is dead, sylvari of all ilk can live their lives as they did when they first emerged 25 years ago. Perhaps if we ever discover Malyck's tree, this discussion can become much less hypothetical.

 

They actually do show signs of such, and these very signs were why people had long speculated that sylvari were dragon minions the moment we learned there was a sixth unknown Elder Dragon.

 

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > The only answer is that the Pale Tree at some point got purified in some way. Perhaps not by the Forgotten, but it had to have happened, and neither Ventari nor Ronan had any means to do it. And it likely happened to Malyck or his tree as well. Who or what, we don't know, nor do we know when, but by the very definition of how dragon minions function it **had** to have happened.

>

> Is it entirely ruled out that the seeds, which the Pale Tree grew from, weren't actually corrupted by Mordremoth to begin with? AFAIK Dragon Minions can't reproduce. Thus, they wouldn't produce seeds. If that was the case, no Purification ritual would be necessary.

 

If they weren't corrupted by Mordremoth, then they wouldn't have been "meant to serve the dragon" and wouldn't be dragon minions in the first place. Mordrem produced by Blighting Trees are produced in similar (if not the same) way as well.

 

Dragon champions are capable of creating minions, they don't all need to corrupt living beings - Primordus, for example, has champions that create destroyers in vats of lava, slowly formed over time, and had created [at least one champion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer_Queen) who created "eggs" to form destroyers in mobility.

 

Mordrem are primarily created using two methods; either in a invasive species method where mordrem vines consume the host be that host plant or animal (resulting in situations like the Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves in the latter case), or by corrupting plant matter itself per [this dev comment](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329).

 

Mordrem in general may be an exception to the "minions can't reproduce" since all other minions are turned into elemental entities (fire, ice, crystal) or dead things, whereas plants are living beings in their own rights. There are some Blighting Tree "saplings" in Auric Basin, for example, that are suggested to be newly planted and growing.

[Zola.6197]

What it boils down to is that we don’t really know. We have parameters and rules that dragon minions are *supposed* to follow, and then there’s the Sylvari. It could very well be that you’re correct and the seeds were purified through an unknown method, resulting in free Sylvari, or it could be a plot hole they’re trying to retroactively cover.

 

The point being, even if you list the rules dragon minions follow, until we have a concrete statement in game of *exactly* how the Sylvari defied the odds, you are theorizing. There’s nothing wrong with that, but unless you’re writing the plot and lore for ANet you have no way of knowing for certain. They could truly have some weird mind boggling twist prepared that throws the logic of dragon minions out the window.

 

The information the game has imparted certainly *suggests* something in line with your theory, but until it’s proven that’s what it is: a theory. Your argument does makes a lot of sense, objectively, but I don’t think anyone should take it as fact yet.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Dragon champions are capable of creating minions, they don't all need to corrupt living beings - Primordus, for example, has champions that create destroyers in vats of lava, slowly formed over time, and had created [at least one champion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer_Queen) who created "eggs" to form destroyers in mobility.

>

> Mordrem are primarily created using two methods; either in a invasive species method where mordrem vines consume the host be that host plant or animal (resulting in situations like the Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves in the latter case), or by corrupting plant matter itself per [this dev comment](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329).

>

> Mordrem in general may be an exception to the "minions can't reproduce" since all other minions are turned into elemental entities (fire, ice, crystal) or dead things, whereas plants are living beings in their own rights. There are some Blighting Tree "saplings" in Auric Basin, for example, that are suggested to be newly planted and growing.

 

Well, that brings us to the question whether it's true reproduction, where the offspring is genetically unique, or "false reproduction" as in cloning. It would make sense, especially with Mordrem, as some plants in the real world reproduce by cloning themselves, turning nutrients, sunlight and water into stem cells, out which they form the new plant growth(-s) via their roots. So in a sense Dragon Minions wouldn't REproduce, they'd just produce, and that's why 2 destroyer crablings look identical.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"starhunter.6015" said:

> This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

 

we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

[Yannir.4132]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

>

> we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

 

A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

[Ephemiel.5694]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

> >

> > we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

>

> A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

 

If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

> > >

> > > we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

> >

> > A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

>

> If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

 

hope they do a blizzard then, how they did 180 on Tandred Proudmoore being non canon; though quit wow years ago, but still follow what's happening with the story in the game

[Zola.6197]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

> > >

> > > we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

> >

> > A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

>

> If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

 

Actually, one of the writers posted here within the last few months that Malyck’s plot thread is not entirely off the table. They have content planned, but they need to find somewhere to put it — and they very much want to find a place for it.

 

So nothing is a sure bet, but they’ve essentially written the resolution and are looking for somewhere to use it.

 

[starhunter.6015]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > This is why we needed to come to Malycks tree.

> > >

> > > we need a story arc on him, he's so much cooler than Trahearne

> >

> > A current event involving Malyck would be awesome.

>

> If they didn't use him in the expansion focused on Sylvari that took place in the same location that his Tree was mentioned to be, you can rest assured Malyck will never be spoken about again.

 

Malyck and his tree was intended to be seen and used in HoT but was cut due to time restraints so they have not fully forgotten him.

 

[Genesis.8572]

> @"starhunter.6015" said:

> Malyck and his tree was intended to be seen and used in HoT but was cut due to time restraints so they have not fully forgotten him.

>

There are so many other things about HoT's story that should have been cut or scrapped, but Malyck and his plotline was not one of them.

 

At this point, I would not mind if they just did more Current Events style filler, much as they did with Trahearne and the Pale Tree, that addressed Malyck and the Non-PT Sylvari.

[Castigator.3470]

There's the question whether a Sylvari's density is higher or lower than that of water and by how much. Ingame, this cannot affect character movement, but as Sylvari are plants, they may need to expend energy to not drift to the surface. If that is the case, a group of Sylvari may be able to form a raft, but that would make aquatic Sylvari unlikely. With the exception of coastal Sylvari, these are fairly common in Caledon Forest and Sparkfly Fen.