stability needs to go

[Blocki.4931]

Neither of this is ever going to happen. They'd have to both happen simultaneously or it wouldn't work at all.

 

The ONLY way to change this would be to give you a brief immunity to CC whenever you stunbreak, which in turn would make it absolutely impossible to pin people down in small scale fights and completely ruin that aspect of the game.

 

When you say "reduce CC" you mean "reduce the amount of CC that can be applied to you in succession" because obviously the CC comes from having not 1 but 30 people using skills, which you can't just functionally change to not be CC without major reworks.

[Sovereign.1093]

staying calm helps. not easy though but, when in calm state, you don't panic press stuff. and can avoid ccs. but maybe if your group is new, it'll be difficult.

[Etheri.5406]

News flash : half the CC mentioned in this thread isn't even relevant in group fights.

 

Yet if stab didn't exist, I'd sure enjoy the next level pirateship gameplay that follows as no group is able to get closer than ~600 range from another one without walking through 15 cc's and continuous bomb.

 

To op : "YEAH BUT WE CAN LEARN TO RELY ON STUNBRAKS" - just shows how few players, even in WvW, know how "wards" work. You know, guard ring, lines, ... Removing those would be a pre-requisite to removing stab from the game.

 

But frankly stability as a buff is OK. It's application on certain skills, mostly FB mantra shitting out groupwide stunbreaks and almost 10 seconds of stab is perhaps a little bit too high. That said I like how it's all 1 stack, as this allows you to CC plenty of players by... coordinating CC?!

 

The 0.75 second ICD from stab stacks being stipped should be removed. It's genuinely useless.

 

[Israel.7056]

If you're really worried about stab there's this class called spellbreaker you can employ in your comps that can completely shut down stab spam in any sort of close quarters fight.

[Rampage.7145]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> There is another thread that has 2 false solutions.

> More stability or less CC.

> Both are bad ideas and heavily favor specific classes.

>

> What is needed I believe is to have NO stability but specific reactive skills that break crowd control. Once no longer CC'ed you have a timer of CC immunity of say 1 or 2 seconds. Any CC applied in that time is ignored. The CC clearing skill and application should be on timers that are multiples (2-5 times) the time of the CC immunity.

>

> Makes for much better game in that you actually have to make decisions on when to CC and when to clear. Unskilled players will hate this idea.

> The entire class imbalance the stability idea introduced goes away.

>

> Can you make a small change with what I propose? Go ahead. We all want a better game.

 

This does not work on mass scale PvP tho, stability is fantastic for WvW, it also adds a counter play to it which is corrupting or stripping it that is skilled gameplay, u know what is not skilled? depending on a CC immunity RNG timer LOL. Have you ever played as part of a guild or a zerg? just out curiosity

[Rampage.7145]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> News flash : half the CC mentioned in this thread isn't even relevant in group fights.

>

> Yet if stab didn't exist, I'd sure enjoy the next level pirateship gameplay that follows as no group is able to get closer than ~600 range from another one without walking through 15 cc's and continuous bomb.

>

> To op : "YEAH BUT WE CAN LEARN TO RELY ON STUNBRAKS" - just shows how few players, even in WvW, know how "wards" work. You know, guard ring, lines, ... Removing those would be a pre-requisite to removing stab from the game.

>

> But frankly stability as a buff is OK. It's application on certain skills, mostly FB mantra kitten out groupwide stunbreaks and almost 10 seconds of stab is perhaps a little bit too high. That said I like how it's all 1 stack, as this allows you to CC plenty of players by... coordinating CC?!

>

> The 0.75 second ICD from stab stacks being stipped should be removed. It's genuinely useless.

>

 

the .75 stab strip ICD is what makes stability work in first place, before this u could use longbow 5 on a DH a strip all the stab form a whole blob cuz with no ICD the ground skills like lines or barriers or whatever would just pierce tru 10 stacks of stab in 1 second rendering stab useless and no other away to play the zerg vs zerg game that isnt at 1200 range pew pew fest with nobody ever pushing into the other group, yeah that sounds like fun!!!

[Rampage.7145]

Stability the way it is right now is perfectly balanced u can strip it in a few milliseconds with enough coordination but if the other group isn't coordinated they will never strip it, this is skilled team focused play, where random idiots not on discord cannot kill your perfectly comped for boonshare zerg, wanna beat stability??? start grouping up and coordinate with other players, learn how to play the game mode. Gw2 is a casual game but WvW is not a casual game mode, wanna beat the best groups out there??? well that is going to take some skill coordination and effort on your part and your team.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Rampage.7145" said:

> > @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > There is another thread that has 2 false solutions.

> > More stability or less CC.

> > Both are bad ideas and heavily favor specific classes.

> >

> > What is needed I believe is to have NO stability but specific reactive skills that break crowd control. Once no longer CC'ed you have a timer of CC immunity of say 1 or 2 seconds. Any CC applied in that time is ignored. The CC clearing skill and application should be on timers that are multiples (2-5 times) the time of the CC immunity.

> >

> > Makes for much better game in that you actually have to make decisions on when to CC and when to clear. Unskilled players will hate this idea.

> > The entire class imbalance the stability idea introduced goes away.

> >

> > Can you make a small change with what I propose? Go ahead. We all want a better game.

>

> This does not work on mass scale PvP tho, stability is fantastic for WvW, it also adds a counter play to it which is corrupting or stripping it that is skilled gameplay, u know what is not skilled? depending on a CC immunity RNG timer LOL. Have you ever played as part of a guild or a zerg? just out curiosity

 

No he's a solo bristleback champion.

 

I've watched all of his "Bristlebackin Em" videos Volumes 1-50.

[Kiroshima.8497]

Personally, I'd like to see Corruption not remove all stacks of stability unless it's a single target skill. High stab stacks is almost completely pointless right now unless the enemy team isn't running scourges (not happening atm).

 

You'd still apply fear, and it could potentially fear the target if the stability duration runs out while the fear is still on them. You'd also still trigger any On Fear traits if you are running them.

[Loosmaster.8263]

This must have been another Rant and Leave post as the OP has never come back. Go ahead and chat amongst yourselves, lol

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> This must have been another Rant and Leave post as the OP has never come back. Go ahead and chat amongst yourselves, lol

 

Isn't that we always do? And for that matter are doing now?

 

:smile:

[coro.3176]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> There is another thread that has 2 false solutions.

> More stability or less CC.

> Both are bad ideas and heavily favor specific classes.

>

> What is needed I believe is to have NO stability but specific reactive skills that break crowd control. Once no longer CC'ed you have a timer of CC immunity of say 1 or 2 seconds. Any CC applied in that time is ignored. The CC clearing skill and application should be on timers that are multiples (2-5 times) the time of the CC immunity.

>

> Makes for much better game in that you actually have to make decisions on when to CC and when to clear. Unskilled players will hate this idea.

> The entire class imbalance the stability idea introduced goes away.

>

> Can you make a small change with what I propose? Go ahead. We all want a better game.

 

I propose something slightly different. Instead of breaking CC after you've been hit, let's give players a window of evade on a short cooldown that they can use in reaction to an incoming attack. This encourages skilled play and fast reflexes. ..

 

But what could we call it? "Modge" or ".. bodge" or ..?

[Rampage.7145]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > There is another thread that has 2 false solutions.

> > More stability or less CC.

> > Both are bad ideas and heavily favor specific classes.

> >

> > What is needed I believe is to have NO stability but specific reactive skills that break crowd control. Once no longer CC'ed you have a timer of CC immunity of say 1 or 2 seconds. Any CC applied in that time is ignored. The CC clearing skill and application should be on timers that are multiples (2-5 times) the time of the CC immunity.

> >

> > Makes for much better game in that you actually have to make decisions on when to CC and when to clear. Unskilled players will hate this idea.

> > The entire class imbalance the stability idea introduced goes away.

> >

> > Can you make a small change with what I propose? Go ahead. We all want a better game.

>

> I propose something slightly different. Instead of breaking CC after you've been hit, let's give players a window of evade on a short cooldown that they can use in reaction to an incoming attack. This encourages skilled play and fast reflexes. ..

>

> But what could we call it? "Modge" or ".. bodge" or ..?

 

sooooooooooo what happens when u are getting hit by 30+ players at the same time how many times per second do you have to "evade"???? when literally every skill in this game does some sort of CC at this point??? do you even play the game bud?

[coro.3176]

> @"Rampage.7145" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > > There is another thread that has 2 false solutions.

> > > More stability or less CC.

> > > Both are bad ideas and heavily favor specific classes.

> > >

> > > What is needed I believe is to have NO stability but specific reactive skills that break crowd control. Once no longer CC'ed you have a timer of CC immunity of say 1 or 2 seconds. Any CC applied in that time is ignored. The CC clearing skill and application should be on timers that are multiples (2-5 times) the time of the CC immunity.

> > >

> > > Makes for much better game in that you actually have to make decisions on when to CC and when to clear. Unskilled players will hate this idea.

> > > The entire class imbalance the stability idea introduced goes away.

> > >

> > > Can you make a small change with what I propose? Go ahead. We all want a better game.

> >

> > I propose something slightly different. Instead of breaking CC after you've been hit, let's give players a window of evade on a short cooldown that they can use in reaction to an incoming attack. This encourages skilled play and fast reflexes. ..

> >

> > But what could we call it? "Modge" or ".. bodge" or ..?

>

> sooooooooooo what happens when u are getting hit by 30+ players at the same time how many times per second do you have to "evade"???? when literally every skill in this game does some sort of CC at this point??? do you even play the game bud?

 

Split up? "cloud", if you will. If you're all running a tight formation, you'll all get hit by focused CC, but if you're more spread out, they can't cc everyone, but I'll defer to your experience on that, since you run one of the better fight guilds in the game..

 

In any case, I think the current system is fine. I was more referring to OP's suggestion for stunbreaks, which I don't like. If you get hit by a CC and don't have stab, you should pay for it by either eating the stun, or using a slot skill to stunbreak.

[Israel.7056]

Getting rid of stab would push the meta back towards pirate shipping and clouding basically. Stab is necessary to maintain uptime in any sort of extended melee engagement. Short and quick flanking melee hits would still be doable but I think that would be about it for melee.

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Getting rid of stab would push the meta back towards pirate shipping and clouding basically. Stab is necessary to maintain uptime in any sort of extended melee engagement. Short and quick flanking melee hits would still be doable but I think that would be about it for melee.

 

I had this wild thought that maybe they should change all the skills that CC to a cast range of 150-300. See how well that goes over.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Does CC really matters? A focus bomb will wipe your zerg out. The only reason I can think of complaining about CC is that your zerg got hit in the face first and then you complain CC cause you can't dodge out or counter back. Isn't the simply solution is not to get hit by other zerg and be the first to strike?

[archmagus.7249]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > Random idea,

> >

> > Do a week where stability no longer prevents cc but application of stability recharges all stunbreaks.

>

> Some classes have stun breaks on stability skills so it's worthless. Others have pulsing stab = perma refresh.

 

Can you say "broken" on the engineer? Spamming elixir u while camping FT with juggernaut.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Getting rid of stab would push the meta back towards pirate shipping and clouding basically. Stab is necessary to maintain uptime in any sort of extended melee engagement. Short and quick flanking melee hits would still be doable but I think that would be about it for melee.

>

> I had this wild thought that maybe they should change all the skills that CC to a cast range of 150-300. See how well that goes over.

 

What if there was several kind of sources for stability, and their respective ending like we had in gw1, what if Anet actually could reverse a bit the boon spam n stack to be a hybrid version of what gw1 had with gw2 (somethign in between).

wards?

Shout?

Stances?

 

Balance is easilly broken in gw2 due the fact every diferent skill produces 1 thing... a boon, it does not result in a good combat :\ its all about who stacks more and who reststacks faster.

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > Getting rid of stab would push the meta back towards pirate shipping and clouding basically. Stab is necessary to maintain uptime in any sort of extended melee engagement. Short and quick flanking melee hits would still be doable but I think that would be about it for melee.

> >

> > I had this wild thought that maybe they should change all the skills that CC to a cast range of 150-300. See how well that goes over.

>

> What if there was several kind of sources for stability, and their respective ending like we had in gw1, what if Anet actually could reverse a bit the boon spam n stack to be a hybrid version of what gw1 had with gw2 (somethign in between).

> wards?

> Shout?

> Stances?

>

> Balance is easilly broken in gw2 due the fact every diferent skill produces 1 thing... a boon, it does not result in a good combat :\ its all about who stacks more and who reststacks faster.

 

It's also broken because you can't balance around every conceivable scenario. From solo to zergs/blobs. Somebody is going to get the short end of the stick and come on here complaining again.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Just make dodge a stunbreak.

[Subversion.2580]

I believe this thread is missing a vital aspect of the discussion. I like stability, but I like it for what it was and what it did.

 

**Layers to spam** (Vanilla-HoT)

When the game first came out stability added a dimension to the good old stun vs. break balance by putting a soft layer ontop of it with cleanses, stability and boonrip. It lended itself to a balance between hard and soft CC (eg., stuns and slows - or the stun effect and the slow condition). It is tasteful in how it is complex (layers, degrees, cross-effects) and simple (easy to understand, natural counters, themed) at the same time.

 

That accomplished two things: It created a fluent ebb and flow in GW2 combat. Getting ripped gave a forewarning that your were at risk at getting CC'ed and the CC in turn would affect the game's core combat ability design around dodges (and rather mobile, fun, gameplay overall). It also created a sort of "trinity without trinity", drawing upon aspects of GW1 where classes could have a role and purpose outside of the tired old trinity. Classes could earn roles thanks to, for example, their ripping same as how Mesmers in GW1 would be anti-casters.

 

That's how alot of WvW balance worked in vanilla (and how higher-end WvW gameplay such as GvG has, to some degree, kept working when it comes to group composition). It worked rather nicely as both a balance between stun/break and boon/rip as well as personal/group effect (as some stability was personal and some was grouped, some rips were focus target and other area/reticle etc.).

 

**Spam to layers** (HoT-PoF)

The only problem was that as more and more classes and builds kept gaining the same access to different tools we just got an overabundance of everything as the game scales up. That is the "spam" people refer to these days.

 

With PoF Anet drew inspiration from the past when they designed eg., Spellbreakers and Soulbeasts the only problems were that the systems only really came in a see-if-it-bares format limited to even fewer classes and mechanics than in vanilla - inherently imbalanced (because stances could never compete with bubbles and the competition is not only on a single-class level but even on single-ability level). The vanilla balance between boons and rips was much better. That could also be seen in how eg., wells could rip all boons but would do it over time, at increasing risk, with some random rolls, so overlapping wells and CC was not a surefire kill. The balance of bubbles and spam now just has no simple basic-gameplay counter of paying attention and smart dodges.

 

The other major problem is that they tried these new mechanics of "full rip / boon application prevention" and "rip prevention / reapplication" ontop of a majorily flawed system. Even if they could find balance on the new mechanics over time they are still a third layer ontop of a broken second layer that needs balance attention regardless.

 

**Summary**

So in summary, do not forget the positives of the original design and keep in mind that all of this is balance issues rather than a flaw in the original design. There was a reason for stability and boon rip to be made. For large swaths of the game it has also worked as intended. When it has worked as intended alot of players have looked back upon those days as the glory days of the game. No need to reinvent the wheel when we just need to readress poor decisions and find better balance with less spam. Less spam also, inadvertently, helps with performance (server performance etc.).

[Israel.7056]

The thing about the original design is that it made it a little too easy to maintain stab provided you had enough guards.

[Sovereign.1093]

o.o;; ppl love the melee train.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > Getting rid of stab would push the meta back towards pirate shipping and clouding basically. Stab is necessary to maintain uptime in any sort of extended melee engagement. Short and quick flanking melee hits would still be doable but I think that would be about it for melee.

> > >

> > > I had this wild thought that maybe they should change all the skills that CC to a cast range of 150-300. See how well that goes over.

> >

> > What if there was several kind of sources for stability, and their respective ending like we had in gw1, what if Anet actually could reverse a bit the boon spam n stack to be a hybrid version of what gw1 had with gw2 (somethign in between).

> > wards?

> > Shout?

> > Stances?

> >

> > Balance is easilly broken in gw2 due the fact every diferent skill produces 1 thing... a boon, it does not result in a good combat :\ its all about who stacks more and who reststacks faster.

>

> It's also broken because you can't balance around every conceivable scenario. From solo to zergs/blobs. Somebody is going to get the short end of the stick and come on here complaining again.

 

That i would call lack of spam, players not noticing how easy it is xD

 

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> o.o;; ppl love the melee train.

 

 

Yes and no, both are needed, issue is when stacking few meta gimmicks it will end in range combat that can even engulf melee groups w/o much effort, due the nature how easy overstackign aoe classes is, due their pve aoe spam nature in design, wich gets "transplanted" to the pvp sides of the game.

 

This will make Anet forced to add more super duper passives every expantion wich will lead for more cc that will lead for more boon wich will lead for more condi and boon removal, more and more and more and more, well u guys kinda noticed the redudancy Anet is stuck with the all end in boon and condi and every expantion needs to add more than previous...

 

Every expac we will have this convo basicly...and the lack of balance, they are stuck, unless they start to adress things to be more similiar to gw1, not all but some.