Which core/base profession do you want reworked/revamped?

[Tails.9372]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > Pistol / Pistol on thief.

> >

> > Unload is way to cost intensive and it could use a little bit more damage (PvE only), the other 4 skills need a complete rework (make unload weapon skill one and then go from there), the weapon set is currently outclassed by rifle in every way and it has severe sustain / synergy issues.

>

> Thiefs pistols #5 is one of the most usefull skills of the thief's weapon sets. Pistol #4 is a very good interrupt, maybe one of the best of the game since it's an istant interrupt. Pistol #2 lock your foe where it stand and increase incoming damage on it. AA isn't nearly as bad as it seem, it's even a bit stronger than the necromancer's non traited scepter AA.

And they're all pretty much useless for P/P thief at this point, vital shot is redundant because the basic function is already covered by unload, no need for a filler skill thief is not a cooldown based profession. Other pistol skills are more usefull for other thief builds were the main DPS comes from the auto, some skills could have some use but the strain unload puts on them is just to high for them to be practical. You'll never see a P/P thief bother with break bars from champs simply because by the moment you break them you'll be out of initiative and thus incapable of properly benefiting from their downtime, that's not the case for CD based professions because they don't have shared resources and builds were the main damage comes from the auto for obvious reasons. PvP has the same problem but on steroids, since your main source of damage comes from a skill with an ini cost of 6 (why A-Net, just why?) using any other skill will heavily cripple your ability to properly attack the enemy. The sustain on P/P is realy bad which just looks like a bad joke if you look at rifle and realise that it has much better sustain, more damage, better burst, better utility and more range.

 

At this point P/P could use 4 new skills to give the weapon set more focus / synergy and the ini cost of unload should definitely go down (or removed completely) in both PvE and PvP.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > Pistol / Pistol on thief.

> > >

> > > Unload is way to cost intensive and it could use a little bit more damage (PvE only), the other 4 skills need a complete rework (make unload weapon skill one and then go from there), the weapon set is currently outclassed by rifle in every way and it has severe sustain / synergy issues.

> >

> > Thiefs pistols #5 is one of the most usefull skills of the thief's weapon sets. Pistol #4 is a very good interrupt, maybe one of the best of the game since it's an istant interrupt. Pistol #2 lock your foe where it stand and increase incoming damage on it. AA isn't nearly as bad as it seem, it's even a bit stronger than the necromancer's non traited scepter AA.

> And they're all pretty much useless for P/P thief at this point, vital shot is redundant because the basic function is already covered by unload, no need for a filler skill thief is not a cooldown based profession. Other pistol skills are more usefull for other thief builds were the main DPS comes from the auto, some skills could have some use but the strain unload puts on them is just to high for them to be practical. You'll never see a P/P thief bother with break bars from champs simply because by the moment you break them you'll be out of initiative and thus incapable of properly benefiting from their downtime, that's not the case for CD based professions because they don't have shared resources and builds were the main damage comes from the auto for obvious reasons. PvP has the same problem but on steroids, since your main source of damage comes from a skill with an ini cost of 6 (why A-Net, just why?) using any other skill will heavily cripple your ability to properly attack the enemy. The sustain on P/P is realy bad which just looks like a bad joke if you look at rifle and realise that it has much better sustain, more damage, better burst, better utility and more range.

>

> At this point P/P could use 4 new skills to give the weapon set more focus / synergy and the ini cost of unload should definitely go down (or removed completely) in both PvE and PvP.

 

However, P/P thief is just a single build out of many that use the pistol. Your argumentation is that there is a need for a rework of all skills but the dual skill, because a single build benefit more from this specific dual skill than the other skills. Build diversity, gameplay diversity. That's all it is about. A P/D thief will benefit from the auto attack and the skill#2. S/P and D/P will benefit from off hand pistol skills as well, don't look at things in the vacuum that P/P is. In the end, the only thing that your argumentation will unearth is issues with P/P dual skill overperforming which might lead to a nerf that you certainly don't want to see.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Necro. Core is a joke. End of.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Core necro. I don't think there is another profession in the game where the core version is so far apart in performance from elites. Especially since we recently see buffs to elite (reaper) while none for core.

 

Frankly I'm shocked at a-net's lack of interest in core necro. Core profession is the posterchild for elite specs that may make an xpansion sale. If you're puking outta boredom or dissapoitment with core necro, chances are you won't just switch to another profession, but to another game. You can make a good impression without any hitches only once. After failing at the very start, it becomes dicey and can cost you players.

 

And forums, reddit and ingame chats are very clear about which profession sucks till lvl 80. Hell a few core professions **can join a raid**. Necro struggles with that on **any spec really**, and core? Don't make me laugh...

 

And yes, i know you need xpac to raid, but how would you feel knowing your core profession and abilities you learned playing it can get you into raid, vs knowing you'd have to bribe a shitton of ppl to not be kicked in first 10s of joining a raid group?

[NaiveBayes.2587]

It was between necro and ranger for me but jfc necro mains are soooo whiny I want them to get their reworks and stop crying already.

[Rhyse.8179]

ELEMENTLIST?!?

 

Sheesh. Be FOTM for 5 years, get one round of nerfs, and you guys call for a full rework.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Your argumentation is that there is a need for a rework of all skills but the dual skill, because a single build benefit more from this specific dual skill than the other skills. Build diversity, gameplay diversity. That's all it is about. A P/D thief will benefit from the auto attack and the skill#2. S/P and D/P will benefit from off hand pistol skills as well, don't look at things in the vacuum that P/P is.

My argument is to lower the ini cost of unload (or remove it completely) and **replace** the other skills of this weapon set with "4 new ones" for reasons stated above. And yes, I can look at it "in a vacuum" as you put it because other weapon sets like D/P would be unaffected by it.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> In the end, the only thing that your argumentation will unearth is issues with P/P dual skill overperforming which might lead to a nerf that you certainly don't want to see.

Overperforming? Have you ever even used unload outside a level 1-15 area? The skill in its current state is complete trash tier vs. other players and below average when it comes to PvE. Those who unironically claim that the skill is "overperforming" have no idea what they're talking about.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

> @"NaiveBayes.2587" said:

> It was between necro and ranger for me but jfc necro mains are soooo whiny I want them to get their reworks and stop crying already.

 

Excuse you? Just so happens i'm currently doing map completion on a condi ranger. Words cannot describe how fast paced and fluid the experiece is. Why again would you want rework for core ranger?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Your argumentation is that there is a need for a rework of all skills but the dual skill, because a single build benefit more from this specific dual skill than the other skills. Build diversity, gameplay diversity. That's all it is about. A P/D thief will benefit from the auto attack and the skill#2. S/P and D/P will benefit from off hand pistol skills as well, don't look at things in the vacuum that P/P is.

> My argument is to lower the ini cost of unload (or remove it completely) and **replace** the other skills of this weapon set with "4 new ones" for reasons stated above. And yes, I can look at it "in a vacuum" as you put it because other weapon sets like D/P would be unaffected by it.

>

 

I'm affraid the game doesn't work like that. You just can't expect that equiping P/P will change all pistol skills, this would be ridiculous.

More than that, you want _unload_ to be a free channeled skill. I'm affraid nobody is ready to bear the consequences of such a thing. This equivalent to have it become a range channeled autoattack which mean that for the sake of balance, ANet would probably remove the might proc and reduce the attack speed/number of hit to something close to mersmer's GS AA.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > In the end, the only thing that your argumentation will unearth is issues with P/P dual skill overperforming which might lead to a nerf that you certainly don't want to see.

> Overperforming? Have you ever even used unload outside a level 1-15 area? The skill in its current state is complete trash tier vs. other players and below average when it comes to PvE. Those who unironically claim that the skill is "overperforming" have no idea what they're talking about.

 

Well, maybe because I know how to manage my initiative I can say that. _Unload_ if used properly is usefull in any gamemode and at any level. Also, believe it or not, skills with initiative cost are not meant to be spammed, this is simply not how thief is supposed to be played.

[Hoodie.1045]

Core engineer doesn't have the problems that core necromancer has which is the core shroud mechanic being lackluster compared to the elite shrouds. Core engineer on it's own, it does work if you know how to play the profession, but the problem with core engineer is that the kits need to be buffed in order to be on par when fighting against other professions, including the Holosmith.

 

All ArenaNet has to do is change numbers on the kit skills, such as reducing the cast time and increasing the cripple duration on Box of Nails, reducing the cooldown on certain condition skills like Poison Grenade. Core engineer needs lower cooldowns in order to reliably keep multiple conditions active on foes. Professions like the warrior and guardian can easily cleanse conditions and having to wait for 25 seconds in order to apply poison with Poison Grenade just hurts the profession even more.

[maddoctor.2738]

Elementalist because the core is completely replaced by the elite specs. Further, Elementalist is the one and only profession that cannot swap to a ranged option by pressing one button on the keyboard (usually [weapon swap], engineers use kits). Elementalists need a rework to be able to change their effective range.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> Sheesh. Be FOTM for 5 years, get one round of nerfs, and you guys call for a full rework.

 

Core Elementalist has been FOTM for 5 years? That's news to me.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I'm affraid the game doesn't work like that. You just can't expect that equiping P/P will change all pistol skills, this would be ridiculous.

Except it does, 2H weapon sets already come with 5 tailor made skills which is why they usually don't suffer from the same synergy issues P/P does.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> for the sake of balance, ANet would probably remove the might proc and reduce the attack speed/number

No they don't, you're ignoring that unload is (as opposed to how it is for many other weapon sets) the only damage oriented skill this weapon set has and I wouldn't mind keeping it that way. Other classes have week autos because they get the bulk of their damage from other sorces and those who don't have autos which already out DPS unload. There's no point in toning unload down "for the sake of balance" unless you want to add´some big burst oriented weapons skills which I dont think they should do because rifle is alredy doing the "big damage spike" thing and if P/P needs one thing then it's to diferentiate itself from rifle (preferably by going for sustain over burst).

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Well, maybe because I know how to manage my initiative I can say that.

You can't maintain unload in PvP unless you play extremely passive which goes against the theme of the weapon set (not to mention that it's really ineffective and you're better off using rifle for this kind of gameplay). You can maintain it in PvE but like I said issue here isn't that you can't use unload but that the high ini cost of unload makes using any other weapon skill impractical.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> _Unload_ if used properly is usefull in any gamemode and at any level.

Everything is useful "to some degree" but there's a reason why you only see P/P thiefs in casual PvE. It's more of a gimmick anywhere else (one that can get you hate and kicked out of parties if you bring it to "high level play").

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Also, believe it or not, skills with initiative cost are not meant to be spammed

Which is why I said "make unload the baseline and go from there".

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> this is simply not how thief is supposed to be played.

Thief already has weapon sets where the bulk of the damage comes from spamming the auto while the rest is being used for utility. Nothing new here.

[Marcel.1857]

Well i was for ranger since in the wvw ranger is nearly useless only if you roam it can be played but normally in a wvw zerk somthing like this happens:

You join the squad a s ranger/druid/soulbeast and nearly 4seconds after it yu get kicked out of it and wispered pls use a class that contribute something to the zerk.

Like Guard(pof), Nec (pof) , War (pof), Chrono (hot). And it feels bad to see ppl kicked out of a squad because they play what they want to play and it´s not a class of contributing by heal and give lot of boons like the guard.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > I'm affraid the game doesn't work like that. You just can't expect that equiping P/P will change all pistol skills, this would be ridiculous.

> Except it does, 2H weapon sets already come with 5 tailor made skills which is why they usually don't suffer from the same synergy issues P/P does.

>

 

Nope, each weapon have a set of skills and that's all. MH skill or Off hand skills usually don't change based on which weapon you have on the other hand. P/P isn't a 2 handed weapon, it's a combination of 2 single handed weapon and as such each of these weapons have their own skill set that don't change based on what you equip on the other hand. This is the core of the weapon skills system.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > for the sake of balance, ANet would probably remove the might proc and reduce the attack speed/number

> No they don't, you're ignoring that unload is (as opposed to how it is for many other weapon sets) the only damage oriented skill this weapon set has and I wouldn't mind keeping it that way. Other classes have week autos because they get the bulk of their damage from other sorces and those who don't have autos which already out DPS unload. There's no point in toning unload down "for the sake of balance" unless you want to add´some big burst oriented weapons skills which I dont think they should do because rifle is alredy doing the "big damage spike" thing and if P/P needs one thing then it's to diferentiate itself from rifle (preferably by going for sustain over burst).

>

 

Majority of the weaponsets in game have few damage skills and otherwise skills that are more "utilities". You are totally ignoring the fact that even as power damage, pistol AA is competitive with any other range 1 handed weapon damage. You are ignoring the fact that pistol skill#2 increase your damage and allow you to immobilize your foe so that you can deal your damage at range. Pistol#4 instantly interrupt your foe, it is an effect that is always welcome.

 

It is just impossible to consider _unload_ as a low cost spammable skill without serious nerf to the skill. You'd overflow with might, permanently being at 25 might stack without any investment in concentration or even trying to really play intelligently. The damage is also way above what similar skills do due to the sheer number of hit per second. This is just unreasonable.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Well, maybe because I know how to manage my initiative I can say that.

> You can't maintain unload in PvP unless you play extremely passive which goes against the theme of the weapon set (not to mention that it's really ineffective and you're better off using rifle for this kind of gameplay). You can maintain it in PvE but like I said issue here isn't that you can't use unload but that the high ini cost of unload makes using any other weapon skill impractical.

>

 

Like I said you are not supposed to maintain _unload_. You are not supposed to sustain 25 might stacks with 0 investment or "player skill" while hitting your foe with a high number of hits per second.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > _Unload_ if used properly is usefull in any gamemode and at any level.

> Everything is useful "to some degree" but there's a reason why you only see P/P thiefs in casual PvE. It's more of a gimmick anywhere else (one that can get you hate and kicked out of parties if you bring it to "high level play").

>

 

You are usually being kicked out of parties in "high level" play because you use improper weaponset. Not because the weaponset is weak but because the weaponset is not optimal in the kind of environment where you'll fight. For exemple, it's always fine if P/P is your bis weaponset as a daredevil in raid, however, your teammate will expect you to play melee most of the time. Both to be able to ensure that you receive proper support and because melee weapon are meant to deal more damage than range weapon. The optimal way to deal damage is and have always been melee damage.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Also, believe it or not, skills with initiative cost are not meant to be spammed

> Which is why I said "make unload the baseline and go from there".

>

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > this is simply not how thief is supposed to be played.

> Thief already has weapon sets where the bulk of the damage comes from spamming the auto while the rest is being used for utility. Nothing new here.

 

Good new that the pistol is different then, this add diversity.

[SatdeNecro.2395]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> By the way, necromancer is so ignored that the OP spelled out every other professions name, including elementalist which has a much longer name, except for necromancer. Think about that for a second.

 

As someone who loves necromancer not just in this game but other games because the "theme" of it, it saddens me to see how poor the necromancer seems to be amongst the other professions. :'(

[Tails.9372]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Nope, each weapon have a set of skills and that's all. MH skill or Off hand skills usually don't change based on which weapon you have on the other hand. P/P isn't a 2 handed weapon, it's a combination of 2 single handed weapon and as such each of these weapons have their own skill set that don't change based on what you equip on the other hand. **This is the core of the weapon skills system. **

Which doesn't work for this weapon set and people recognize this as a problem (hence the "all PP does is spamming 3" complaints). People have alwas used unload as a auto attack (the kind of AA that actually does a substantial amount of damage like the Double Strike chain) and there's no technical limmitation on how manny skills can be changed through dual wielding and depending on the weapon set they should chage as many skills as needed to make it a proper weapon set.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> You are ignoring ...

No I don't, I already addressed this in my previous posts.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> It is just impossible to consider _unload_ as a low cost spammable skill without serious nerf to the skill. You'd overflow with might, permanently being at 25 might stack without any investment in concentration or even trying to really play intelligently. The damage is also way above what similar skills do due to the sheer number of hit per second.

Might stacks are useless if the performance of the weapons set as a whole is underwhelming, like I said you can easiliy have 100% uptime for unload in PvE already but the DPS is still considerably lower than what power necro used to have before the buff. Also, everything that's even remotely similar how unload is used (since day one) has noticeably higher DPS even without might.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

>This is just unreasonable.

And yet I reason for it and you haven't to come up with anything which actually debunks the points I brought up. All you do is making unfounded claims like "unload is overperforming" and vague statements like "it isnt supposed to" instead of actually explaining why you think that removing the ini cost of unload is putting the performance of P/P "over the edge". You claim that I look at P/P "in a vacuum" and yet it is you who seems to overly fous on comparing single skills while ignoring the bigger picture.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Like I said you are not supposed to maintain _unload_. You are not supposed to sustain 25 might stacks with 0 investment or "player skill" while hitting your foe with a high number of hits per second.

It only hits the foe "with a high number of projectiles" if he lets himself get hit. Unload is very easy to play around precisely because of how the damage is spread between multiple hits which makes the skill bad vs. active defences which pretty much every class has in abundance.

 

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > Also, believe it or not, skills with initiative cost are not meant to be spammed

> > Which is why I said "make unload the baseline and go from there".

> >

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > this is simply not how thief is supposed to be played.

> > Thief already has weapon sets where the bulk of the damage comes from spamming the auto while the rest is being used for utility. Nothing new here.

>

> Good new that the pistol is different then, this add diversity.

There's no diversity when rifle is basically "the same thing but better in every way", having a heavily sustain oriented mid ranged build would actually add some diversity to the class.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> Which doesn't work for this weapon set and people recognize this as a problem (hence the "all PP does is spamming 3" complaints). People have alwas used unload as a auto attack (the kind of AA that actually does a substantial amount of damage like the Double Strike chain) and there's no technical limmitation on how manny skills can be changed through dual wielding and depending on the weapon set they should chage as many skills as needed to make it a proper weapon set.

>

 

So basically you want each 1 handed weapon to have different skills based on the weapon taken in the other hand? It's good, all professions crave for this you know? The issue is that it's just not how guild wars 2 work. Each weapon have it's own rigid set of skill and based on how hard it is for ANet to balance skills, It's a relief that there is not a weapon skillset specific to 1 handed weaponsets.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > You are ignoring ...

> No I don't, I already addressed this in my previous posts.

>

 

Nope, you address nothing at all. You just say in an elaborate form that the weaponset PP should be revolving around the use of _Unload_ and that other pistols skills are crap so they should rework skills for the sake of supporting _unload_.

 

> Might stacks are useless if the performance of the weapons set as a whole is underwhelming,

 

Might stacking is one of the basis of dps in the game. Without might you often can barely expect to do half the damage that you would with might.

 

> like I said you can easiliy have 100% uptime for unload in PvE already but the DPS is still considerably lower than what power necro used to have before the buff.

 

Power necromancer isn't "range", with axe I doubt it can even be close to a well played PP thief.

 

> Also, everything that's even remotely similar how unload is used (since day one) has noticeably higher DPS even without might.

>

 

That's why elementalist love to camp Air scepter's AA and all mesmers top the dps chart with GS AA.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> >This is just unreasonable.

> And yet I reason for it and you haven't to come up with anything which actually debunks the points I brought up. All you do is making unfounded claims like "unload is overperforming" and vague statements like "it isnt supposed to" instead of actually explaining why you think that removing the ini cost of unload is putting the performance of P/P "over the edge".

 

You don't reason, you camp on your idea that P/P should somewhat owork like a 2 Handed weapon, something that doesn't exist in game. 1 handed weapon are 1 handed weapon and 2 handed weapon are 2 handed weapon there is no weaponset that work like what you suggest on any profession in game. Each pistol is designed to work with any other weapon like each 1handed weapon is designed to work with any other weapon. _Unload_ as a skill is already a very performant self buffing skill which few weapon skill can equal. _Unload_ also dish out a lot more dps than most ranged1 handed weaponskill which is in itself a good reason to limit it's availability via an intiative cost.

 

> You claim that I look at P/P "in a vacuum" and yet it is you who seems to overly fous on comparing single skills while ignoring the bigger picture.

 

You are only looking at a single skill, _Unload_, and you ask me to look at the bigger picture? Stop it, a weaponset isn't meant to revolve around a single skill and especially not a conditionnal skill (unload only exist in the P/P vacuum). Don't say that I don't look at the big picture when you're suggesting to change 2 entire weapon skillset for the sake of a skill that only exist if these 2 weapons are used together.

 

In the big picture, there is few dual skills. In the big picture, no 1 handed weapon skill set are entirely changed based on the weapon you chose to take alongside. In the big picture thieve's pistol skills are already all competitive and usefull as they are even if you happen to use the P/P weaponset.

 

If ANet chose to nerf the initiative cost and refund in PvP and WvW that just mean that the skill had a negative impact in these gamemodes.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Like I said you are not supposed to maintain _unload_. You are not supposed to sustain 25 might stacks with 0 investment or "player skill" while hitting your foe with a high number of hits per second.

> It only hits the foe "with a high number of projectiles" if he lets himself get hit. Unload is very easy to play around precisely because of how the damage is spread between multiple hits which makes the skill bad vs. active defences which pretty much every class has in abundance.

>

 

All skill hit their foes only if their foes let them be hit. There is no skill which isn't bad against active defense. But, to humor you, you can also see things in a positive view since with it's 8 projectiles per unload, an aegis barely block 12% of unload damage while it block 100% of a _gravedigger_ damage for example, you'll also destroy an elementalist's arcane shield and still deal more than 60% of the damage of you unload. Against some specific active defenses it just happen that this skill is also unexpectedly better than most skills.

 

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > Also, believe it or not, skills with initiative cost are not meant to be spammed

> > > Which is why I said "make unload the baseline and go from there".

> > >

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > this is simply not how thief is supposed to be played.

> > > Thief already has weapon sets where the bulk of the damage comes from spamming the auto while the rest is being used for utility. Nothing new here.

> >

> > Good new that the pistol is different then, this add diversity.

> There's no diversity when rifle is basically "the same thing but better in every way", having a heavily sustain oriented mid ranged build would actually add some diversity to the class.

 

Ah yes, so since riffle is a power weapon, you want P/P skills to fit _unload_ which is a power skill so that you have 2 range power weaponset which will compete against each other for the title of best range power weaponset... Doesn't make sense at all.

 

Before riffle was buffed I can clearly recall that thiefs were complaining that P/P was just superior in every way like you are currently complaining that riffle is just superior in every way. Riffle and P/P will always compete for the same spot but it's fine if P/P does less damage because P/P allow to attack on the move more freely than riffle does. P/P is a lot more reactive than riffle will ever be. (Being able to objectively see that is what looking at the big picture is.)

[MyPuppy.8970]

Voted ele. The only prof with stat deficiency and no class mechanic. They just happen to have more skills that can do a little of everything without achieving anything.

[Opopanax.1803]

The only reason engineer isn't winning this poll is because there aren't enough people left maining the class to care. It is really that bad.

 

As much as necros bitch, at least people still play them.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> ELEMENTLIST?!?

>

> Sheesh. Be FOTM for 5 years, get one round of nerfs, and you guys call for a full rework.

 

Given the number of people voting for necro....I'd say is necro the fotm class..pure logic

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > ELEMENTLIST?!?

> >

> > Sheesh. Be FOTM for 5 years, get one round of nerfs, and you guys call for a full rework.

>

> Given the number of people voting for necro....I'd say is necro the fotm class..pure logic

 

fotm in what, low end pvp?

[Nimon.7840]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > Necromancer. It is the worst designed class in the game. Come on now, don't make us wait another 6 years with this. Necromancer is always number 2 on these lists when it should be number 1 and its been that way since year one. Everyone always prioritizes other classes over necromancer when necromancer mechanically is an absolute mess. Ranger? Fine, doesn't need anything. Revenant needs more skills doesn't need a complete overhaul, Elementalist only needs number adjustments. Necromancer needs Life force reworked, shroud reworked, utilities reworked, Minions reworked, most trait lines need some major reworks, their weapons reworked, everything. The necromancer needs everything.

>

> Necro has a functioning mechanic namely deathshroud. Sure tgese skills need improvements and the traits too but ranger despite its performance has a class mechanic that would be very versatile on paper but is very one sided in reality.

>

> I do agree with you that necro needs work done. Especially the minions are in my opinion a let down and i would want a different minion mechanic depending on weaponskills and the possibility to sacrifice them with special skills that give different effects.

>

> After that i have to say that revenant is fine with the weponskills but needs serious work on its traits and legendskills.

> The upkeeps are fine but atleast 1 legendskill is underused with exception of glint and shiro.

>

> Necro has problems with weaponskills, shroud and some signets could get improvements too. The traits are sometimes good and sometimes just baf. Deathmagic could get improvements.

>

> Ranger has 2 horrible grantmasters in wilderness survival, an antiswap synergy with sbeast, beastmastery is all over the place trait wise, Dagger OH is garbage, sword 2 clunky, axe OH immobile, staff has a bad 2 and 4, shortbow is bad without its trait and that trait is overly convoluted with stuff. Axe has still unsplitted power coefficients thus deals less dmg in PvE and Axe 3 is bad without its trait.

> Necro just got a trait that hypercharges a good skill to a fantastic one.

> Sure i agree that core necro performance is abyssmal but all its functionalities are not the problems with it.

> Problem is that most of core necro is not necessarily outright bad but just mediocre and cant excell in anything. That does not need not a mechanical overhaul like ranger pets would.

>

 

Wanna know garbage weapons?

Necro focus 4 is completely useless outside of soloplay pve, focus 5 is only useable in 1v1 situations.

Necro dagger auto is slower than thiefes, necro dagger 2 is still bad as it now interrupts by not having Los (before it had way to long channel time), dagger 3 has way too long casttime with way to huge tell, dagger 4 only transfers conditions if you really hit your target, dagger 5 takes 10 years animation wise.

Axe auto has an huge aftercast

 

We got skills that can kill ourselves (traited corruption skills), but do they do insane amounts of dmg? - no

 

Even though scourge should be support, it has no support weapon.

 

You got problem mostly with soulbeast right. no need for major overhaul.

 

And don't tell a necro something about immobile.

 

You have one skill that needs you to stand still, but like 5 that give you movement.

Necro has none that gives him movement.

You think pets are bad? At least you can command them. And they are pretty strong in 1v1 situations, so strong, that they can solo kill someone, after they are fully buffed.

 

And next necro traits: it can't even use all fear traits because they are spread over 4 traitlines. And then it's still not worth taking them because necro has only very little access to fear.

 

Speaking about horrible grandmasters. Signets trait, stab when entering shroud, a trait that gives you the boons you corrupt locked behind scourge.

 

Overall no real good synergies.

Super bad deathmagic traitline.

Bloodmagic could use some serious work as well.

 

No active defenses on the class other than shroud, which is also offensively used so you have to decide whether you want it as defense or as offense. Self sustain on necro is still pretty bad.

 

Then let's continue:

Support is super bad on necro.

 

It can't heal properly

It can't give boons

It can't give any other buffs

The only thing it's good at is rezzing people, which is super bad for pve endgame because you don't want people to go down., That's why you just take a better healer like druid. - Oh wait, that's a ranger spex

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > Necromancer. It is the worst designed class in the game. Come on now, don't make us wait another 6 years with this. Necromancer is always number 2 on these lists when it should be number 1 and its been that way since year one. Everyone always prioritizes other classes over necromancer when necromancer mechanically is an absolute mess. Ranger? Fine, doesn't need anything. Revenant needs more skills doesn't need a complete overhaul, Elementalist only needs number adjustments. Necromancer needs Life force reworked, shroud reworked, utilities reworked, Minions reworked, most trait lines need some major reworks, their weapons reworked, everything. The necromancer needs everything.

> >

> > Necro has a functioning mechanic namely deathshroud. Sure tgese skills need improvements and the traits too but ranger despite its performance has a class mechanic that would be very versatile on paper but is very one sided in reality.

> >

> > I do agree with you that necro needs work done. Especially the minions are in my opinion a let down and i would want a different minion mechanic depending on weaponskills and the possibility to sacrifice them with special skills that give different effects.

> >

> > After that i have to say that revenant is fine with the weponskills but needs serious work on its traits and legendskills.

> > The upkeeps are fine but atleast 1 legendskill is underused with exception of glint and shiro.

> >

> > Necro has problems with weaponskills, shroud and some signets could get improvements too. The traits are sometimes good and sometimes just baf. Deathmagic could get improvements.

> >

> > Ranger has 2 horrible grantmasters in wilderness survival, an antiswap synergy with sbeast, beastmastery is all over the place trait wise, Dagger OH is garbage, sword 2 clunky, axe OH immobile, staff has a bad 2 and 4, shortbow is bad without its trait and that trait is overly convoluted with stuff. Axe has still unsplitted power coefficients thus deals less dmg in PvE and Axe 3 is bad without its trait.

> > Necro just got a trait that hypercharges a good skill to a fantastic one.

> > Sure i agree that core necro performance is abyssmal but all its functionalities are not the problems with it.

> > Problem is that most of core necro is not necessarily outright bad but just mediocre and cant excell in anything. That does not need not a mechanical overhaul like ranger pets would.

> >

>

> Wanna know garbage weapons?

> Necro focus 4 is completely useless outside of soloplay pve, focus 5 is only useable in 1v1 situations.

> Necro dagger auto is slower than thiefes, necro dagger 2 is still bad as it now interrupts by not having Los (before it had way to long channel time), dagger 3 has way too long casttime with way to huge tell, dagger 4 only transfers conditions if you really hit your target, dagger 5 takes 10 years animation wise.

> Axe auto has an huge aftercast

>

> We got skills that can kill ourselves (traited corruption skills), but do they do insane amounts of dmg? - no

>

> Even though scourge should be support, it has no support weapon.

>

> You got problem mostly with soulbeast right. no need for major overhaul.

>

> And don't tell a necro something about immobile.

>

> You have one skill that needs you to stand still, but like 5 that give you movement.

> Necro has none that gives him movement.

> You think pets are bad? At least you can command them. And they are pretty strong in 1v1 situations, so strong, that they can solo kill someone, after they are fully buffed.

>

> And next necro traits: it can't even use all fear traits because they are spread over 4 traitlines. And then it's still not worth taking them because necro has only very little access to fear.

>

> Speaking about horrible grandmasters. Signets trait, stab when entering shroud, a trait that gives you the boons you corrupt locked behind scourge.

>

> Overall no real good synergies.

> Super bad deathmagic traitline.

> Bloodmagic could use some serious work as well.

>

> No active defenses on the class other than shroud, which is also offensively used so you have to decide whether you want it as defense or as offense. Self sustain on necro is still pretty bad.

>

> Then let's continue:

> Support is super bad on necro.

>

> It can't heal properly

> It can't give boons

> It can't give any other buffs

> The only thing it's good at is rezzing people, which is super bad for pve endgame because you don't want people to go down., That's why you just take a better healer like druid. - Oh wait, that's a ranger spex

>

 

Sure all true, but doesnt change the fact that ranger has the worst class mechanic. Not the worst traits, skills or weapon choiced but they have building sites everywhere also like necro.

I am definetly not against a neceo overhaul you mind that, i know ranger best and all its flaws and 90% pets are a big chunk of it. I mean more than half of the pet families are not affected by quickness, cannot hit a moving target reliably (btw if you got killed by a pet thats not smokescale or rockgazelle you were probably standing still) and pretty much all of the skills pets could use are garbage with a percentile exception.

I mean the while necro issue is probably as big as the whole pet issue alone let alone several mediocre parts of ranger.

Sure ranger performs bettwr than necro and have better interactions but their class mechanic is way way worse and is basically my main issue here. What comes first Idc, i want both and actually all professions to be up to date but the biggest issues first.

[Lonami.2987]

I made redesign threads for all 9 professions some time ago, feel free to check them out:

 

[Elementalist](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/589018/#Comment_589018) - [Mesmer](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/534463/#Comment_534463) - [Necromancer](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/508712/#Comment_508712) - [Engineer](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/546841/#Comment_546841) - [Ranger](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/550563/#Comment_550563) - [Thief](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/588745/#Comment_588745) - [Guardian](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/505730/#Comment_505730) - [Revenant](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/505502/#Comment_505502) - [Warrior](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/511592/#Comment_511592)

 

They cover the core profession, the elite specializations so far, and potential future elite specializations as well. My replies below involve part of what was talked in them.

 

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> ELEMENTLIST?!?

>

> Sheesh. Be FOTM for 5 years, get one round of nerfs, and you guys call for a full rework.

 

I've personally been calling for one since ages ago. Even if elementalist was part of the meta for a long time, it wasn't neither fun nor well designed, and it still isn't.

 

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> Voted ele. The only prof with stat deficiency and no class mechanic. They just happen to have more skills that can do a little of everything without achieving anything.

 

Bingo. Elementalist is a clear example of "more is less".

 

Personally, I would reduce attunements from 4 to 2, named Flame and Frost, by merging fire+earth (condition damage + toughness) and water+air (healing + direct damage). Next, unlock greatsword and shortbow for core, and enable weapon swap. Finally, remove conjures, and replace them with pure minion skills, no longer dependent on glyphs, which would no longer involve minions.

 

The new profession mechanic would be elemental combos, letting you merge combo fields for new different effects. For example, fire field + ice field = steam field, an explosion that burns enemies and heals allies. The new gameplay involves rotating between Flame and Frost and doing these combos all the time.

 

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> The only reason engineer isn't winning this poll is because there aren't enough people left maining the class to care. It is really that bad.

>

> As much as necros kitten, at least people still play them.

 

Engineer has pretty much the same problems as elementalist, having way too many skills, no weapon swap, and no unique outstanding mechanic. My take on it:

 

First of all, enable weapon swap, and unlock main-hand mace for the core profession. Then remove the tool belt, and replace it by two slots, F1 and F2, where you will equip the kits now. Device and weapon kits are no longer slot skills, and they are replaced by two new slot skill families: Grenades (similar to the kit, using the ammo system) and Mines (traps with optional remote activation).

 

Kits would be redesigned, the final result being these five: Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Machine gun (heavy ranged firepower), Energy Cannon (Aetherblade-style, heavy area damage), and Repair Kit (wrench and welder for turret support). All of them would be stronger than current kits, but have some disadvantages, like movement restrictions or vulnerabilities.

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> Pistol / Pistol on thief.

>

> Unload is way to cost intensive and it could use a little bit more damage (PvE only), the other 4 skills need a complete rework (make unload weapon skill one and then go from there), the weapon set is currently outclassed by rifle in every way and it has severe sustain / synergy issues.

 

I think the best approach is to redesign dual wield. Right now, dual wield modifies skill #3 depending on the main-hand and off-hand weapons. I would instead leave skill #3 alone and the same all the time, dependent on the main-hand weapon only.

 

Then, when you equip two of the same one-handed weapon, you get five brand new abilities. This would allow things like an autoattack where you use both weapons at the same time. For example, if you wield dual pistols you would use both during the autoattack. Same for daggers, and swords, if we ever get off-hand sword (should be unlocked for core profession).

 

You can keep this new approach for thief only, or apply it to other professions as well.

 

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> Necromancer. It is the worst designed class in the game. Come on now, don't make us wait another 6 years with this. Necromancer is always number 2 on these lists when it should be number 1 and its been that way since year one. Everyone always prioritizes other classes over necromancer when necromancer mechanically is an absolute mess. Ranger? Fine, doesn't need anything. Revenant needs more skills doesn't need a complete overhaul, Elementalist only needs number adjustments. Necromancer needs Life force reworked, shroud reworked, utilities reworked, Minions reworked, most trait lines need some major reworks, their weapons reworked, everything. The necromancer needs everything.

 

I think Death Shroud is the problem itself. Works fine for reaper, but for core necromancer? Nah, I wouldn't even try fixing it, I would look for a different mechanic.

 

For example, let's go back to classic minion master roles. Right now, minions don't have any decent controls, they're dumber than a ranger pet. What if we replaced Death Shroud with a minion control panel? You would equip one swarm type (much like ranger equips pets), and then spawn the basic unit for free. Slot skills would reinforce the swarm with special units, that would become part of it.

 

And yeah, if it wasn't obvious, I miss the minion masters from GW1, that's the true spirit of necromancy for me. Death Shroud is a cool mechanic, but I'd leave it as a reaper exclusive and look for something better for core.