Keep the quickness!

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> I don't like it solely because it only benefits power specs. It's getting to the point where Necro* isn't going to have a condi spec at all. Chill Of Death should just be given up on and moved to Curses. If Reaper's not gonna have a condi spec, then Core needs to take it's place.

>

> *-Scourge doesn't count. It's not a Necro™ if it doesn't have shroud.

 

To be fair, Shroud never really benefited condi specs to begin with and Anet did buff Lingering Curse as well. I mean, yes Reaper can do some kind of Condi build, but it's was only really good when traiting Curses anyways. Any changes to an espec isn't going to have big effects on Condi builds. (I'm in agreement with your Scourge so I make these comments excluding it.

[Rhyse.8179]

Reaper actually does quite well at condi ATM - perhaps not for raid type DPS, but it builds stacks really fast and has WAY more condi DPS then core does. Sadly, the only use for shroud is to 5-4 whirl combo for more chills. Dhuumfire was nice before the degeneration nerf, but now it can't spend enough time in shroud to stack up burning, so (combined with no more 7s shroud) there's no point in even using Soul Reaping at all. On the upside, I can run Blood and be the Rez Master for the small group I tend to run with.

 

While I love Core gameplay (the "shroud cycle" is a lot of fun, good resource management and endurance style play) it's just not viable in any form. Power builds are laughable - fortunately there is Reaper - and Condi builds are worse. If condi application in Core spec got buffed to what Reaper can do with Chill Of Death I would die a happy lich.

[Obtena.7952]

Not saying Reaper can't make a good condi build, but the change with Reaper Onslaught really didn't affect it (mostly because it's only really good when coupled wtih Death Perception anyways), so I don't know how it's even a point of discussion here. If you are a Condi Reaper, you are taking Deathly Chill ... the quickness change has no impact on you whatsoever.

 

Whether Core is 'viable' or not doesn't really add to the discussion specific to this thread but if you don't think it's viable, I recommend you have a good, honest try at what a Condi Minion Necro is capable of doing. The idea that a specific thing needs to be viable doesn't make sense in the first place; there are just way too many combinations and choices for such a vague concept to be a meaningful target for anything you want to apply it to.

 

Personally, I think this move to do quickness for the 'DPS themed' Reaper works and it's a deep, well-thought out idea. In fact, I think what would be really interesting is if Anet expanded the idea with a pulsing protection for the 'tanky' Reaper theme, which seems to be an idea that somehow got a little lost, especially since the increase to LF degeneration.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Condi reaper is a thing (same dps as condi scourge) and reaper shroud does have strong place there - pulsing ice field = at least 10 bleed stacks from one skill. Then you spin 2 win, and there's quickness+dhuumfire, which on reaper actually work (*cough* core necro *cough*).

 

I generally think this is a first step a-net made with necro + quickness combo, and it does not need to be last. There is definitely a big room for improvements for the future in this regard:

 

* making quickness available to core necro and maybe scourge. But core definitely.

* letting condi builds also benefit from it

* better player control over it (so he can choose to NOT use it, even when traited, when in fear of being target of boon corrupt/theft)

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Atticus.7194" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > Im for lets keep quickness in shroud. Its more smooth to play Reaper right now. More then ever.

> > >

> > > Would be even better if they returned our 7 seconds shroud cooldown!

> > 7 seconds shroud cooldown

> > this is the true buff to necro in PvP and WvW

>

> I'll be honest the quickness is a bit out of control for pvp and wvw, it fundamentally removes the aspects of skills such as shroud 4 that used to keep them balanced. Doing 15-30k in 1.5 sec is a pretty small window to consider it balanced. Just had one shroud two into a team fight, shroud 4 and despite all of us dodging hitting us enough to down 2 players from 50% and make another run at about 10%.

>

> Leave the quickness for PvE but it's gotta change for pvp and wvw, either that or they need to redesign the shroud skills.

 

I'm not sure that's a reasonable statement ... this source of DPS is heavily dependent on a single boon in melee range for a class that has little access to stability. That's bad news in a meta rife with boon stripping and corruption. If anything, the change should have a negative impact on Reapers in WvW/PvP ... people can easily anticipate when they need to strip/corrupt a Reaper ... the instant it enters RS.

 

LIke anything else, people will learn VERY fast the Achille's Heal of the Reaper in competitive game modes ... I wouldn't be surprised if in a month, people start complaining how difficult it is to progress to higher ranks than they had in the past. Reaper will be like DH ... you can kill noobs really easy, but against players that know what to do, screwing their boons will be an ADDITIONAL way to counter a Reaper.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I feel it would be even better if quickness was a stacking boon instead an intensity boon that gives 2% attack speed per stack.

 

Warrior's Dual Wielding and Reaper's Onslaught could then be changed from giving a fixed amount of attack speed to have an increasing attack speed, by making these traits give 1 stack of quickness for 3s when attacking, **and** adding 1s duration to all stacks of quickness on self.

 

So instead starting at max speed, the traits would allow quickly speed up on consecutive attacks, then staying at max speed while you attack.

 

Reaper's Onslaught in particular could maintain the quickness refresh while attacking with a greatsword, but only gain quickness while in reaper shroud.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Not saying Reaper can't make a good condi build, but the change with Reaper Onslaught really didn't affect it (mostly because it's only really good when coupled wtih Death Perception anyways), so I don't know how it's even a point of discussion here. If you are a Condi Reaper, you are taking Deathly Chill ... the quickness change has no impact on you whatsoever.

>

> Whether Core is 'viable' or not doesn't really add to the discussion specific to this thread but if you don't think it's viable, I recommend you have a good, honest try at what a Condi Minion Necro is capable of doing. The idea that a specific thing needs to be viable doesn't make sense in the first place; there are just way too many combinations and choices for such a vague concept to be a meaningful target for anything you want to apply it to.

>

> Personally, I think this move to do quickness for the 'DPS themed' Reaper works and it's a deep, well-thought out idea. In fact, I think what would be really interesting is if Anet expanded the idea with a pulsing protection for the 'tanky' Reaper theme, which seems to be an idea that somehow got a little lost, especially since the increase to LF degeneration.

 

I really like the tanky sustain Reaper theme and with the recent changes, was wondering if a decent build could be found (as in really really hard to kill build even if focused by 2-3 opponents).

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Regarding the bruiser theme - we're soft as, slow going, so the fact they cant tank us up is played off now by some decent spike dmg. I mean we've got a string bean Jason with his big knife. He needs momentum in the form of lf gain to do anything or just get shirt fronted. From the get go our boys a wet noodle. Reapers "Onslaught" now actually fits its title, give 'em that +1 theme point. If you dnt want the quickness/dmg, gun for additional tankyness from the balancers. Let's see how quick it is to redirect effort into defense vs offense.

[Theros.1390]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

>This is good. This is how it should be. A profession should have reasons to "go with the flow" of game's horizontal gear progression and have traits/skills that make non-

> meta gear sets viable and meaningful.

 

I agree so much with the OP on that point.

 

I'll just say that 3 sec is too much, because the power Reaper already deals HEAVY damages. With an interval of 3 sec, it means perma quickness while in shroud. It should be 2 or 1,5 sec, and if the necro wants more boon duration, he'll have to go for concentration stat, instead of a little bit power or precision.

 

I'm pretty sure that quickness duration will be split in the next balance patch, and the will be decreased in PvP and WvW.

 

[Nightmare.1234]

runes of the firebrand increase quickness duration but that rune set would only work with a condi, dhumm fire trait style build. mights the only other boon reapers get a lot of and that so easy to generate that the boon duration be lost on the build.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I think the main point quickness is strapped to reaper's onslaught is that it can't be gotten by bligher's boon builds. That would really skyrocket both sustain and damage.

[Aetatis.5418]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> I think the main point quickness is strapped to reaper's onslaught is that it can't be gotten by bligher's boon builds. That would really skyrocket both sustain and damage.

 

oh right... ever since the patchnotes i thought the quickness would have been THE opportunity to give core necro something (in soul reaping). but i never thought about the mechanic working with blighters boon.

too obvious i guess >.< dang it

[trixantea.1230]

I was hoping for a flat attack speed (something around 30%) instead of the permanent quickness. The trait doesn't give much when used in a PvE environment.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"trixantea.1230" said:

> I was hoping for a flat attack speed (something around 30%) instead of the permanent quickness. The trait doesn't give much when used in a PvE environment.

 

But the attackspeed from before didn't stack with quickness.

 

[trixantea.1230]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> But the attackspeed from before didn't stack with quickness.

>

 

True, they should've made the 15% attack speed stack when reapers were complaining about the low dps.

[Rhyse.8179]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> To be fair, Shroud never really benefited condi specs to begin with and Anet did buff Lingering Curse as well. I mean, yes Reaper can do some kind of Condi build, but it's was only really good when traiting Curses anyways. Any changes to an espec isn't going to have big effects on Condi builds. (I'm in agreement with your Scourge so I make these comments excluding it.

 

I'm more making a general complaint that when they FINALLY get around to helping out Necro, it's just to give Power Reaper a boost. Not touching any of the condi build problems or the Core problems. I really wish they'd get busy and give the class the attention it needs.

 

As for the quickness itself, yeah, it's fine. I think it's lazy and slightly bad design - it means most DPS comes from the autoattack, which is boring. It's fine, but I think they could have done better. Not enough reason to call for removing it. On the upside, you get 2-3 seconds of it after exiting shroud, great for a Gravedigger or other combo.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > To be fair, Shroud never really benefited condi specs to begin with and Anet did buff Lingering Curse as well. I mean, yes Reaper can do some kind of Condi build, but it's was only really good when traiting Curses anyways. Any changes to an espec isn't going to have big effects on Condi builds. (I'm in agreement with your Scourge so I make these comments excluding it.

>

> I'm more making a general complaint that when they FINALLY get around to helping out Necro, it's just to give Power Reaper a boost. Not touching any of the condi build problems or the Core problems. I really wish they'd get busy and give the class the attention it needs.

>

> As for the quickness itself, yeah, it's fine. I think it's lazy and slightly bad design - it means most DPS comes from the autoattack, which is boring. It's fine, but I think they could have done better. Not enough reason to call for removing it. On the upside, you get 2-3 seconds of it after exiting shroud, great for a Gravedigger or other combo.

>

 

But that's not true ... Anet didn't just give power reaper builds a boost. They buffed the BEST condi damage trait in the Necro arsenal as well and that's very relevant outside of Reaper builds. It's simply not honest to say they only focused on Power Reaper. Lots of the changes made are applicable to non-Reaper builds as well. I don't get why you would think that just power Reapers were boosted.

 

You're also going to have to explain how most DPS comes from Auto Attack because of the change. Quickness affects all execution times on all skills IIRC and that's pretty much exactly how the old 15% increase also worked ... so it's not just auto attack that's getting the benefit of quickness, it's all of the RS skills, just like we had in the past.

[Rhyse.8179]

It's because our only RS 4 and 5 do notable damage, and those take 2s to execute tops, and then it's just AA. I suppose there may be a DPS rotation outside of "stay in shroud as long as possible" but nothing I've fought so far has lived long enough to find out. I prefer condi anyway so I havn't bothered to test it in depth. If you say it's more then that, I guess I'll take your word for it. I've got no saddle on that horse it was just my first impression.

 

As for Lingering Curse, it's a bit ham fisted IMO. I'll take the buff - the AOE Sc 3 is VERY nice - but it's just piling even more power into an already required trait. I really hope this is just a stopgap measure while they do a mesmer-phantasm-level rework, because there's a lot of potential in the class and buffing what was already strong is just going to make it stagnate more.

[Obtena.7952]

Yeah but that was the same with the old way, so it has nothing to do with quickness. The relevant factor is that quickness is 50% and the old way is 15% ... so quickness actually gets you access to your RS skills being executed much faster in your rotation than the old way. You might camp AA more ... I think the real way to look at it is that you camp it the same amount of time, you just get more of them in because the time is dependent on how long you are in RS. I mean, you camped RS1 the old way too because that's just how the game is designed on most weapons ... you just got less of them in while in RS than you do now.

 

Even if the change to Lingering Curse piles more power into a required trait (which I prefer instead of some competing one), the fact remains that this wasn't just a Power Reaper love patch. Other builds other than power reaper got attention and its the good kind.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

 

> As for Lingering Curse, it's a bit ham fisted IMO. I'll take the buff - the AOE Sc 3 is VERY nice - but it's just piling even more power into an already required trait. I really hope this is just a stopgap measure while they do a mesmer-phantasm-level rework, because there's a lot of potential in the class and buffing what was already strong is just going to make it stagnate more.

 

Strongly disagree. There were voices before asking "What the hell is that trait doing in grandmaster tier?" For most part justified. Sure, reaper has access to condi gs, so he's not bothered by scepter's lackluster performance but core necro suffered. Two main offenders for scepter being slow and no aoe save grasping hands (nothing to scream about).

 

With this rework now PvE necro has a two proper aoe condi skills on scepter, devouring darkness being more potent one, since with preparation it's 5 stacks of torment vs 3 stacks for bleed. This also has great synergy with grasphing hands (cripple).

Competitive necros get a great aoe boon corrupt and again some nice torment.

 

This is an **excellent decision** by a-net, and it needs following up. Give more power to core necro, take some away from elites. That way elite specs will still remain roughly where they are since 2/3 of them is still core necro, while core necro will finally see some good, engaging and competitive gameplay vs other professions, be it PvE or PvP.

 

[archmagus.7249]

Concentration sigils. All boons applied for 7 seconds after entering shroud have 33% increased duration. Entering shroud counts as a weapon swap.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Yeah but that was the same with the old way, so it has nothing to do with quickness. The relevant factor is that quickness is 50% and the old way is 15% ... so quickness actually gets you access to your RS skills being executed much faster in your rotation than the old way. You might camp AA more ... I think the real way to look at it is that you camp it the same amount of time, you just get more of them in because the time is dependent on how long you are in RS. I mean, you camped RS1 the old way too because that's just how the game is designed on most weapons ... you just got less of them in while in RS than you do now.

>

> Even if the change to Lingering Curse piles more power into a required trait (which I prefer instead of some competing one), the fact remains that this wasn't just a Power Reaper love patch. Other builds other than power reaper got attention and its the good kind.

 

More time spent auto-attacking is great for Reaper's Onslaught, since that reduces the cooldown of all of the other Shroud skills. If you're autoing with Reaper's Onslaught, you're nearly doubling your recharge rate now. How does a 12 second cooldown on Soul Spiral before alacrity sound? It's really not farfetched anymore. With alacrity, getting 2 Soul Spirals off in a single Shroud use is actually rather likely.

[Zero.3871]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Yeah but that was the same with the old way, so it has nothing to do with quickness. The relevant factor is that quickness is 50% and the old way is 15% ... so quickness actually gets you access to your RS skills being executed much faster in your rotation than the old way. You might camp AA more ... I think the real way to look at it is that you camp it the same amount of time, you just get more of them in because the time is dependent on how long you are in RS. I mean, you camped RS1 the old way too because that's just how the game is designed on most weapons ... you just got less of them in while in RS than you do now.

> >

> > Even if the change to Lingering Curse piles more power into a required trait (which I prefer instead of some competing one), the fact remains that this wasn't just a Power Reaper love patch. Other builds other than power reaper got attention and its the good kind.

>

> More time spent auto-attacking is great for Reaper's Onslaught, since that reduces the cooldown of all of the other Shroud skills. If you're autoing with Reaper's Onslaught, you're nearly doubling your recharge rate now. How does a 12 second cooldown on Soul Spiral before alacrity sound? It's really not farfetched anymore. With alacrity, getting 2 Soul Spirals off in a single Shroud use is actually rather likely.

 

in pvp and wvw your Scenario is impossible to achieve because you barely get the time to perma autoattack someone since you are the slowliest class in the game.already just 1 full AA chain is hard to do successfully.

so its more a pve scenario that reaper could have your 2 soulspirals per shroudentry. and in pve reaper is still Bottom of benchmarks. so it is finally not that great.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Yeah but that was the same with the old way, so it has nothing to do with quickness. The relevant factor is that quickness is 50% and the old way is 15% ... so quickness actually gets you access to your RS skills being executed much faster in your rotation than the old way. You might camp AA more ... I think the real way to look at it is that you camp it the same amount of time, you just get more of them in because the time is dependent on how long you are in RS. I mean, you camped RS1 the old way too because that's just how the game is designed on most weapons ... you just got less of them in while in RS than you do now.

> > >

> > > Even if the change to Lingering Curse piles more power into a required trait (which I prefer instead of some competing one), the fact remains that this wasn't just a Power Reaper love patch. Other builds other than power reaper got attention and its the good kind.

> >

> > More time spent auto-attacking is great for Reaper's Onslaught, since that reduces the cooldown of all of the other Shroud skills. If you're autoing with Reaper's Onslaught, you're nearly doubling your recharge rate now. How does a 12 second cooldown on Soul Spiral before alacrity sound? It's really not farfetched anymore. With alacrity, getting 2 Soul Spirals off in a single Shroud use is actually rather likely.

>

> in pvp and wvw your Scenario is impossible to achieve because you barely get the time to perma autoattack someone since you are the slowliest class in the game.already just 1 full AA chain is hard to do successfully.

> so its more a pve scenario that reaper could have your 2 soulspirals per shroudentry. and in pve reaper is still Bottom of benchmarks. so it is finally not that great.

>

 

And in PvP/WvW, it still means you're likely to get off a Soul Spiral or Executioner's Scythe every time you enter Shroud. The cast time on those being reduced is massive when facing players.

 

I seriously don't see why you're complaining about this change. It can potentially be a problem against other Necros now, sure. Potentially. Reapers always have had issues with other Necros, though, whether it's their Stab becoming Fear or their vast amounts of Might becoming Weakness. Reaper's Onslaught is not the best choice 100% of the time, which is how it should be. Now, though, it's actually a viable option for PvP formats, rather than never being taken at all.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Yeah but that was the same with the old way, so it has nothing to do with quickness. The relevant factor is that quickness is 50% and the old way is 15% ... so quickness actually gets you access to your RS skills being executed much faster in your rotation than the old way. You might camp AA more ... I think the real way to look at it is that you camp it the same amount of time, you just get more of them in because the time is dependent on how long you are in RS. I mean, you camped RS1 the old way too because that's just how the game is designed on most weapons ... you just got less of them in while in RS than you do now.

> > > >

> > > > Even if the change to Lingering Curse piles more power into a required trait (which I prefer instead of some competing one), the fact remains that this wasn't just a Power Reaper love patch. Other builds other than power reaper got attention and its the good kind.

> > >

> > > More time spent auto-attacking is great for Reaper's Onslaught, since that reduces the cooldown of all of the other Shroud skills. If you're autoing with Reaper's Onslaught, you're nearly doubling your recharge rate now. How does a 12 second cooldown on Soul Spiral before alacrity sound? It's really not farfetched anymore. With alacrity, getting 2 Soul Spirals off in a single Shroud use is actually rather likely.

> >

> > in pvp and wvw your Scenario is impossible to achieve because you barely get the time to perma autoattack someone since you are the slowliest class in the game.already just 1 full AA chain is hard to do successfully.

> > so its more a pve scenario that reaper could have your 2 soulspirals per shroudentry. and in pve reaper is still Bottom of benchmarks. so it is finally not that great.

> >

>

> And in PvP/WvW, it still means you're likely to get off a Soul Spiral or Executioner's Scythe every time you enter Shroud. The cast time on those being reduced is massive when facing players.

>

> I seriously don't see why you're complaining about this change. It can potentially be a problem against other Necros now, sure. Potentially. Reapers always have had issues with other Necros, though, whether it's their Stab becoming Fear or their vast amounts of Might becoming Weakness. Reaper's Onslaught is not the best choice 100% of the time, which is how it should be. Now, though, it's actually a viable option for PvP formats, rather than never being taken at all.

 

I agree with this.... ive been taking it and enjoying it and imo blighters boon only in alot of cases delayed your death without improving kill potental which was something i never really liked.

I prefer the best offensive tactic is the best defense tactic and thats what RO gets you now. Your attacks even just the auto is fast enough to deal massive damage to another player if you can manage to stick to them for a few seconds while their block is down etc. Before you could stick to some one for several seconds but your damage was slow which made kill potential kinda lame.

 

Thanks to the ferocity buff to Death perception RO also feels more like a proper power trait sense it allows you to stack the ferocity bonus in shroud. Its now competitive in my mind to the other 2 options in the grand master line in a pvp perspective. In solo Pve play its nice too. It just makes shroud feel smoother and nicer overall. Maybe not super good for raids and high end fractals where you will have quickness up all the time anyways but for the most part 80% of the other areas of the game it was an overall improvement.