Why did you bring back the Dragon Emblem Shirt?

[Danikat.8537]

I'm pretty sure these are new codes. The tea company has partnered with Anet to run the promotion, and there's a lot of codes going out, so it seems unlikely it's just old ones they managed to get hold of.

 

(Also I'm forever calling it a tea shirt now. And wearing it for guild events, since my guild tag is [TEA].)

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

Guys, what exactly is so difficult to understand?

 

OP, I'm really sorry your rare item got devalued by this. They should have created a new outfit for this promotion. Don't listen to the people in this thread, they won't understand why you're upset.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> Guys, what exactly is so difficult to understand?

>

> OP, I'm really sorry your rare item got devalued by this. They should have created a new outfit for this promotion. Don't listen to the people in this thread, they won't understand why you're upset.

 

Oh no, I do understand why OP's upset. I just disagree with his reasons.

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

> @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > Guys, what exactly is so difficult to understand?

> >

> > OP, I'm really sorry your rare item got devalued by this. They should have created a new outfit for this promotion. Don't listen to the people in this thread, they won't understand why you're upset.

>

> Oh no, I do understand why OP's upset. I just disagree with his reasons.

 

I mean, you can say you wouldn't feel upset in his position. But if he feels upset, if he placed value on his previously exclusive item that made him feel good... who are any of you to tell him that's wrong? Imo, it's just about people enjoying the game for different reasons. A lot of people on this forum don't care about "rewards".

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> Oh no, I do understand why OP's upset. I just disagree with his reasons.

 

Ayup, especially because folks with that mentality typically don't give two whits what *I* feel, anyway. It's all about how *that one person* needs to feel special. And a digital good in a semi-permanent game is a sorrowful thing to tie one's ego to.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > > Guys, what exactly is so difficult to understand?

> > >

> > > OP, I'm really sorry your rare item got devalued by this. They should have created a new outfit for this promotion. Don't listen to the people in this thread, they won't understand why you're upset.

> >

> > Oh no, I do understand why OP's upset. I just disagree with his reasons.

>

> I mean, you can say you wouldn't feel upset in his position. But if he feels upset, if he placed value on his previously exclusive item that made him feel good... who are any of you to tell him that's wrong? Imo, it's just about people enjoying the game for different reasons. A lot of people on this forum don't care about "rewards".

 

Indeed, it *is* about enjoying the game for different reasons, and I'm not saying he's wrong, nor that I'm right (or wrong). I just don't agree. Ultimately, none of it is any more than a matter of opinion.

 

That said, people who've been paying attention will know that I also play SWTOR and that I post on their forums under a name that bears a significant resemblance to my display name here. If you go there and search the forums, you'll even be able to find discussions of the "HK-55 chapter" and my point of view expressed there might seem (at a superficial level) contradictory to the one here. That chapter was a bonus mission (quest) given to people who subscribed continuously during a particular period, along with language that suggested strongly that it was an exclusive thing. And, indeed, despite repeated requests, it has remained an exclusive for those people.

 

(Disclaimer: I'm one of the people who has access to the chapter. Read on to see the relevance of that.)

 

The same kind of arguments we've seen here on this thread are posed over there, both for and against releasing the chapter for other players, and in that case I sit on the "against" camp. Why the difference? My objection is not based on exclusivity, and it would not be different if I had been unable to get the chapter. Imagine if an interesting item of equipment, frippery (the Dragon T-shirt counts as frippery, by the way), or story content is made available on that basis, and then later on another, and then before the third is offered, the first is made available in some other (easier) way. When the same language is used, suggesting exclusivity, for the third offer, is it as credible as the first offer? What if both the first *and* the second had been re-released? Does that damage the credibility even more? I say that it does.

 

But the Dragon T-shirt is significantly different. No indication of exclusivity was ever given, as far as I remember. (I was playing the game back then, but couldn't get the shirt.) The SWTOR chapter gave a strong message of exclusivity. So a re-release of the shirt is just that, another chance to get something that was "hey guys, anyone want one of these?" rather than "to get this chapter, subscribe continuously for six and a half months". (Some people did, indeed, maintain their subscriptions *just* because that meant they could get the chapter.)

 

That's why my opinion appears to be different here - the circumstances aren't the same.

[Aethgar.1784]

> @"Tasida.4085" said:

> As long as they leave the Celebration Hat out of it I say let all the latecomers have whatever they want. The hat was given out to celebrate THE LAUNCH of the game (free for a week or 2). It should stay exclusive because like it or not, YOU HAD to be there. The game only launches once ;P PS.....the ball cap looks awesome on Charr and asura where hair doesn't matter.

 

Ironically, some of us at headstart saw it on the gemstore, didn't really think about it, and never got the damn thing. It was ugly and ruined my immersion, so I never got it. I was there at headstart, avid since beta testing, and yeah, I don't have a dumb ball cap cause I didn't think it was something I wanted then (or now to be fair).

 

I have a title. I have some of the best skin artwork yet on my heavy armour wearers (seriously that open-face helm is gorgeous) and I.. just really don't get the issue of the OP.

 

You want people to see your dedication? Activate "Devoted" and put on yer Luminous duds. *shrug*

[Wolfb.7025]

Its the fact of owning a special exclusive item. It makes you feel special somehow, even if others do disagree.

 

 

I'm on the "good they gave it to us" side because I didn't own it and I really wanted it. But if I was one of the original owners, I would entirely disagree about the decition they made. The best choice would be making the item different from the original to still distinguish from the one obtained on launch.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> Its the fact of owning a special exclusive item. It makes you feel special somehow, even if others do disagree.

>

>

> I'm on the "good they gave it to us" side because I didn't own it and I really wanted it. But if I was one of the original owners, I would entirely disagree about the decition they made. The best choice would be making the item different from the original to still distinguish from the one obtained on launch.

 

But, it was never promised to be exclusive, like ever. Not once was it stated anywhere that the item would never be re released like the ball cap, or the HOM rewards(for those who dont play GW1.

[Danikat.8537]

I don't remember them saying the baseball cap was exclusive or would never be released either. Here's the original announcement from when it was released: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/community-news/free-guild-wars-2-celebration-hat-available-for-a-limited-time-only/

 

(Interestingly the character in that picture is clearly wearing it with armour, which was impossible at the time because it was town clothes and you couldn't combine those with armour.)

[Nury.3062]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"Nury.3062" said:

> > Edit : And you talk about "little ol Billy that has been playing for 2 months".Let's talk about the "Billy" who played a for a month and acquired the literal power I acquired in 6 years because of the game system that doesn't reward dedication in meaningful way.Someone who joined the game and played for a month can get almost everything I have acquired in 6 years...that's the real problem...not an ugly outfit.

> Well, isn't that the way it goes with most games? As games progress things get easier and faster for reason of QoL and to have new players being able to catch up and be part of the endgame content and such.

>

> If they didn't do this, new players will forever be behind and you create rifts between player groups. An MMO needs new players and returning players as much as it needs those who are always here if you will. Without new players the game would keep bleeding players and not gain enough new ones.

>

> So how would you suggest they do it, cause if new players can't catch up, they'll leave again.

>

 

Understandable,ofc I would never suggest a system where people can't catch up,that wouldn't be a good idea.But let me tell you a story from Lineage 2. Started playing one day,on the server there were 2 big alliances with many Clans in it,full geared people who played for months-years before I joined.After around 2-3 months of trading,i hate farming so I farmed for a bit and just traded every single day and I got fully geared as well.I created a Clan and I've become good at open world pvp,my clan was weak but I was strong with good gear.One day I attacked and successfully killed many players from one of those fully geared Clans.I made a name for myself and at some point I started making enemies and friends in "high places".Many times I was asked to join one of those clans and leave my clan so I can be in one of the best alliances.I never wanted that so they decided to invite my clan in the alliance thanks to my skill and the friends I made in one of the alliance(those 2 alliances were kinda exclusive,not everyone could join them). With my weak clan I successfully defended in sieges against castles already owned by clans from our alliances.One day after months of playing,it was my turn to be rewarded for all the dedication and time I poured in the game,i was attacking a castle,it was my turn to become a king and I did become a king with the help of the alliance and my poorly geared friends and clan mates wore proudly the castle "crowns" (castle lords would get a "kingly" crown and the members of the clan could get smaller and a bit different crowns...forgot how those are called.)

 

To get back to GW2,this game is not similar to Lineage 2 and it's not that focused on PvP but I gave you an example of being rewarded for playing the game skilfully and how I was the new guy and could catch up and surpass many of the people who played for months.It was easier for veterans in Lineage 2 to own castle because of the experience and relationships created in the game. That was one example of being rewarded for pouring so much into a game,now look at GW2,6 years and how am I rewarded...?! I can play in any way this game can be played and I am still the same as everyone else.There is basically nothing to strive for in this game,it's basically a social hub and that's it.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Nury.3062" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"Nury.3062" said:

> > > Edit : And you talk about "little ol Billy that has been playing for 2 months".Let's talk about the "Billy" who played a for a month and acquired the literal power I acquired in 6 years because of the game system that doesn't reward dedication in meaningful way.Someone who joined the game and played for a month can get almost everything I have acquired in 6 years...that's the real problem...not an ugly outfit.

> > Well, isn't that the way it goes with most games? As games progress things get easier and faster for reason of QoL and to have new players being able to catch up and be part of the endgame content and such.

> >

> > If they didn't do this, new players will forever be behind and you create rifts between player groups. An MMO needs new players and returning players as much as it needs those who are always here if you will. Without new players the game would keep bleeding players and not gain enough new ones.

> >

> > So how would you suggest they do it, cause if new players can't catch up, they'll leave again.

> >

>

> Understandable,ofc I would never suggest a system where people can't catch up,that wouldn't be a good idea.But let me tell you a story from Lineage 2. Started playing one day,on the server there were 2 big alliances with many Clans in it,full geared people who played for months-years before I joined.After around 2-3 months of trading,i hate farming so I farmed for a bit and just traded every single day and I got fully geared as well.I created a Clan and I've become good at open world pvp,my clan was weak but I was strong with good gear.One day I attacked and successfully killed many players from one of those fully geared Clans.I made a name for myself and at some point I started making enemies and friends in "high places".Many times I was asked to join one of those clans and leave my clan so I can be in one of the best alliances.I never wanted that so they decided to invite my clan in the alliance thanks to my skill and the friends I made in one of the alliance(those 2 alliances were kinda exclusive,not everyone could join them). With my weak clan I successfully defended in sieges against castles already owned by clans from our alliances.One day after months of playing,it was my turn to be rewarded for all the dedication and time I poured in the game,i was attacking a castle,it was my turn to become a king and I did become a king with the help of the alliance and my poorly geared friends and clan mates wore proudly the castle "crowns" (castle lords would get a "kingly" crown and the members of the clan could get smaller and a bit different crowns...forgot how those are called.)

>

> To get back to GW2,this game is not similar to Lineage 2 and it's not that focused on PvP but I gave you an example of being rewarded for playing the game skilfully and how I was the new guy and could catch up and surpass many of the people who played for months.It was easier for veterans in Lineage 2 to own castle because of the experience and relationships created in the game. That was one example of being rewarded for pouring so much into a game,now look at GW2,6 years and how am I rewarded...?! I can play in any way this game can be played and I am still the same as everyone else.There is basically nothing to strive for in this game,it's basically a social hub and that's it.

 

Thanks for sharing that story for context.

 

Aside from the games being different types of games, which is fine for the comparison, there is a much more important difference: the player base. And the west has very different players than the east. So I think that this approach just culturally wouldn't work here because people over here are on average a lot more casual.

 

I think you're right that this game doesn't reward being a long term player as such, although I think you'll find that not that many people own legendaries and I think it was a bad move from the start to make them sellable because otherwise it would've been a symbol that players could use to show their seniority. I said this at the start as well. In the end I think this game is completely built around the economy between real money, gems and gold. And yeah, in such a game there is no one that is special.

 

You only have different levels of wealth and the only things you can show off is the stuff that is account bound and has to be done by yourself, but how much of that is there really? I mean I crafted a set of ascended gear for my main but it was bought in part with gold that I got from gems that I bought so I could quickly level my crafting professions. I bought gems to get gold because I didn't play for a very long time and was just so far behind on everything. But as the game has meshed the in game economy so intrinsically with the real economy, I guess there was a point to making it possible for people to buy their way through pretty much everything.

 

My point is though that the game was built like this from the start. Maybe people didn't see it but showing off anything is tainted by the ability to buy your way there. And well GW2 is more casual than games like Lineage and so it's more about getting new people to join in the full game asap rather than having people go through a similar curve.

 

Maybe that's something you really don't like, but that's what this game is about and always was. When the game came out in 2012 I bought it and played it for about 3 months. Then I was too bored to go on. Leveling to 80 was very boring and tedious. Not so much difficult but just too drawn out and every zone was just more of the same. But it wasn't a difficult game from the start. It was more annoyance than difficulty if you will and I think that's still pretty much the same for the open world at least.

 

Still, if they were to reward players, the real question I have is what would you use as a measurement for people to be rewarded?

 

[Danikat.8537]

The way I see it GW2 does have rewards like that. Legendary equipment is the obvious example but there's also things like the mini llamas from PvP, gold Fractal weapons, titles, raid skins and mini pets, even things like the star on your name plate for map completion.

 

It will probably be obvious to a new player that anyone using those is a long-term, experienced player, and they may well think at first that they could never get something like that. But actually they have the same opportunity to earn it...they just have to go through the same process and that does take time and effort.

 

The difference between things like that and the dragon t-shirt is the opportunity to earn it. A new player might be very willing to go to a convention, find an Anet staff member and get given a code, or watch a livestream to be included in a prize draw. They might be willing to do far more than that to earn it. But it doesn't matter what they're willing or able to do because they're not given the opportunity, because they happened to pick up the game at the wrong time.