Can WvW server be made not pay to win.

[phs.6089]

Eeeerm, you know the game is Buy 2 Play, right?

 

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

 

 

> Wow has level brackets for battleground pvp, or max level for arena, and they also have the new open world pvp mode which has level scaling.

> A person without an expansion won't be playing into the new expansion levels, with those that do.

> They also revamp classes from top to bottom which everyone has access to, not just add separate specs that only expansion people have access to.

> Unlike gw2 which allows everyone free/core/hot/pof to join wvw and spvp in one massive pool of players, which in turn allows the new specs which are usually overtuned, to be dominating, which in turn makes anyone without the latest expansion to call it p2w.

 

also wow has monthly subscription, so wow is p2w, if you don't pay subs, you can't play and you lose to those that can pay

 

[LetoII.3782]

It should all be free

Anet employees can get food stamps to live just like Wal*Mart employees

[meowtier.1364]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > > So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

> > >

> > > Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

> > >

> > > thief..same have 2

> > > mesmer...same have 2

> > > warriar...same have 1

> > > Guardian...same have 1

> > > engineer...same have 2

> > > elementalist have 1

> > >

> > > So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

> > >

> > Actually, I was thinking you haven't play in a while, came back and found you didn't know how to fight the new classes

>

> This is largely true because I have no access to the skills on my own toons...so I can only guess what they did or spend hours researching builds and imagining how they can be used. In fact the class design is so bad I thought for sure people were hacking. I send them a tell and they point me at something completely ridiculously OP.

>

> Further because of this I have no idea what a hack looks like. Yesterday I tried to kill the new thief derivative in a circle at a camp. Tried and tried for a couple minutes on an alt "free" account using a thief. (I win most fights on my free account thief BTW.) With this character I did not hit her once. She repeated a skill over and over that prevented me from hitting her. ...probably repeated the skill 50 times... Finally I just left and she laughed at me. Hack or expansion skill...no idea.

>

> Not allowing full access to the expansion classes in WvW creates many more problems for ANET than the few bucks it makes off me.

 

lol yeah I definitely have screenshots of whispers from this dude claiming I was hacking. Was a good laugh

[Iris Ng.9845]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > @"Iris Ng.9845" said:

> > The meta is changing at the alarming rate (not). Op can't stay the same and win forever. There isn't an Apex predator in the competitive mode. If you don't want to die, identify the threat and/or gtfo. Or maybe do eotm if you don't wish to see others with the elite specs you don't have access to.

> What!!!! You can only use vanilla specs in EotM? Holy kitten anet. That is awesome.

>

 

There is no one in EoTM so if you so wish, you can even run naked, no trait lines.

[LetoII.3782]

A vanilla gw2 in EotM would be awesome. But I'm not holding my breath

[shiri.4257]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

 

> 1.) You need cleaner code.

> 2.) You need better programmers.

> Possibly both...as 2 causes 1 to not occur.

 

3) You need a less whiny, entitled, freeloading population base.

 

 

[Warkind.6745]

I play core traitlines on my main despite having access to both expansions.

 

You get a lot of nice stuff from the new professions, but usually you have to give up something equally useful.

[Optimator.3589]

I wish life wasn't pay to win. Having to spend money to have a nice TV or a fast car is so BS. Why should those clowns with jobs have better stuff than the bums down the street? Why is the US military so much more powerful than that of say...Romania(just picking a random country)? It's just so unfair.

 

That's more or less what I hear when threads like this come up. Not everybody can have everything for nothing. It's just how the world is.

[Ayrilana.1396]

This must be the OP’s first MMO or perhaps game in general. Expansions always adds things that those who only have the base game will not have access to. It’s also generally expected that players continue to purchase expansions.

 

[Chaba.5410]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> It should all be free

> Anet employees can get food stamps to live just like Wal*Mart employees

 

Capitalism is a great system but then they brought it to muh games! You mean I gotta pay?!

[Skeletor.9360]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

 

Great example.

I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.

You made my case.

Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.

Can't go on expanded questing.

PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.

Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

 

So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

[Skeletor.9360]

Oh and for those that are believe its about money.

I had spent a bunch of money on in game purchases that are silly. Outfits. harvesting toys. Transfers. Bag expansions. Dyes. character slots.

Way way way more than the cost of a game.

I was a real good customer and felt pretty darned good about ANET other than usual frustrations with bad class designs.

Then they pull this crap.

 

How much have I spent since they downgraded my character sand tried to force the money out of me? ZERO. for the longest time...then I said OK this one time. NO MORE!

I'll never spend another cent on ANET as long as they are trying to force it out of me. And yes I'm a libertarian. This is all about me feeling that ANET is manipulating me to extract money from me and reducing my paid for account to the level of a free account. In fact the free account is better because it offers more freedom. Say I have 1 account with 14 characters on it. I better restrict my speech because I could lose 14 toons if I'm naughty. 14 free accounts I only can lose 1 toon max. Be the biggest baddest naughty person...cost 1 toon I can replace in a few days.

 

You HAVE to remember the guy that just bought the game yesterday paid the same I did! ALL THAT PLAYING TIME....blah blah bla...again dumb argument.

Accounts are free now with nearly the same abilities I have (less bag storage is all really). So do they ever have to upgrade? So they get all that play time...don't need to upgrade. How does that "I owe them an upgrade purchase" argument go again that doesn't sound silly in this light?

 

How do I know. I have 2 free accounts just to log in and stomp paid for account people. (I stomp them because most people suck at pvp.) I lose to good people not because of skill but lack of access to mobility, CC, stealth that are much more plentiful on expanded characters. But they have to be pretty good. Not great but pretty good. I know a REALLY good player because they stomp me hard and that never happened before the split. I'm pretty sure I'm better than I was before now too.

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> Oh and for those that are believe its about money.

> I had spent a bunch of money on in game purchases that are silly. Outfits. harvesting toys. Transfers. Bag expansions. Dyes. character slots.

> Way way way more than the cost of a game.

> I was a real good customer and felt pretty darned good about ANET other than usual frustrations with bad class designs.

> Then they pull this crap.

>

> How much have I spent since they downgraded my character sand tried to force the money out of me? ZERO. for the longest time...then I said OK this one time. NO MORE!

> I'll never spend another cent on ANET as long as they are trying to force it out of me. And yes I'm a libertarian. This is all about me feeling that ANET is manipulating me to extract money from me and reducing my paid for account to the level of a free account. In fact the free account is better because it offers more freedom. Say I have 1 account with 14 characters on it. I better restrict my speech because I could lose 14 toons if I'm naughty. 14 free accounts I only can lose 1 toon max. Be the biggest baddest naughty person...cost 1 toon I can replace in a few days.

>

> You HAVE to remember the guy that just bought the game yesterday paid the same I did! ALL THAT PLAYING TIME....blah blah bla...again dumb argument.

> Accounts are free now with nearly the same abilities I have (less bag storage is all really). So do they ever have to upgrade? So they get all that play time...don't need to upgrade. How does that "I owe them an upgrade purchase" argument go again that doesn't sound silly in this light?

>

> How do I know. I have 2 free accounts just to log in and stomp paid for account people. (I stomp them because most people suck at pvp.) I lose to good people not because of skill but lack of access to mobility, CC, stealth that are much more plentiful on expanded characters. But they have to be pretty good. Not great but pretty good. I know a REALLY good player because they stomp me hard and that never happened before the split. I'm pretty sure I'm better than I was before now too.

 

Really, what is the problem then? You got what you paid for. If you don't like a company's business practices, no one is forcing you to spend time and money on them. And you get to use free accounts to fight the censorship! I really enjoy how this game isn't engineered to make you feel like you gotta grind through a ton of RNG or spend money to skip the RNG-spam like so many Korean MMOs, but that's just me.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

>

> Great example.

> I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.

> You made my case.

> Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.

> Can't go on expanded questing.

> PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.

> Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

>

> So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

 

Well so you want base game to only play with base game players well thats a way to kill off a game I guess.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

>I really enjoy how this game isn't engineered to make you feel like you gotta grind through a ton of RNG or spend money to skip the RNG-spam like so many Korean MMOs, but that's just me.

 

Precisely. Perhaps there's another game I haven't played or heard of that's cheaper but as far as I know in the MMO market this game is as low cost as it gets. You buy the game, buy the xpacs and you're done.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

>

> Great example.

> I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.

> You made my case.

> Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.

> Can't go on expanded questing.

> PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.

> Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

>

> So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

 

There are PVP servers in WoW that have nothing to do with level based. When I played WoW I was wrecked by higher level players. Your example is flawed.

[phs.6089]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

>

> Great example.

> I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.

> You made my case.

> Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.

> Can't go on expanded questing.

> PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.

> Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

>

> So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

 

Mind you, you still pay subs to wow, right? If you don't you can't. So tell me how is $15 per mount is not P2W but a$15-20 expac is one?

 

Expacs are the way that Anets easrns money, you want them to juts give up on it? Or would you prefer to pay subs to access any skill, trait line, elit scpe? I bet Anet would be happy to introduce such thing( like ESO) if there are more players wiling to go for it.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Core is still viable as I have friends (who have both expansions) who run core in WvW

 

1 runs a guardian symbol build (not meta) that can wreck a lot of PoF and HoT classes.

1 runs a core ranger that does very well

 

Other classes that are viable are:

 

sword thief

Core warrior (see a few of these while roaming and they are still in a good spot)

I will sometimes pull out my old P/P core engi and run with it. Still does quite well surprisingly. Its far from the best condi build, however it has a positive k/d rate.

 

Once you know how the newer classes work, it's not as big of a deal. Just need to learn to play against them.

[Inoki.6048]

It is P2W, but at the same time, the game doesn't have a subscription model.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Buying a game, or paying a subscription, is P2W since you have to do that in order to *win*. I certainly couldn’t win at Skyrim on the console without paying for it first. /s

[Defias.1892]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

>

> Great example.

> I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.

> You made my case.

> Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.

> Can't go on expanded questing.

> PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.

> Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

>

> So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

 

Lmao, you are ridiculous. WoW is so **poor in design** and **has been lagging behind GW2 in terms of introducing basic QoL changes**. And I say this as someone who has been loyally playing since Classic.

1. We didn't get multi-mob tagging until WoD

2. We didn't get a way to pay for subs/Blizzard Credit with gold until WoD patch 6.2 something

3. World Quests a.k.a. Dynamic Events didn't happen until Legion

In Design, WoW has been lagging behind GW2 alot, and not much has changed. Mission tables are garbage mobile games and Rep Grinds are still stupidly painful and ridiculous.

 

In, PVP, if you want to play WoW F2P, you are outclassed by level 29 twinks. If you play without BFA(the latest expansion), you are outclassed by people with Azerite Gear/HoA (both extremely powerful BFA items) at level 110 PVP. Warmode (**OR OPEN WORLD PVP**) includes all players from level 1-120, meaning that a level 120 can continually gank lower levels. At some point, Blizzard actually equalized all players, but when a level 80 twink started killing max level players, people complained and Blizzard reverted that scaling.

 

But I mean, I'm guessing you haven't played WoW in a while, or else you would complain about having to spend $15 in addition to $50 for the expansion and call WoW P2W

[Skeletor.9360]

> @"phs.6089" said:

> > @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

> >

> > Great example.

> > I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.

> > You made my case.

> > Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.

> > Can't go on expanded questing.

> > PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.

> > Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

> >

> > So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

>

> Mind you, you still pay subs to wow, right? If you don't you can't. So tell me how is $15 per mount is not P2W but a$15-20 expac is one?

>

> Expacs are the way that Anets easrns money, you want them to juts give up on it? Or would you prefer to pay subs to access any skill, trait line, elit scpe? I bet Anet would be happy to introduce such thing( like ESO) if there are more players wiling to go for it.

 

Here a novel idea. Have your expansion pack actually have "expansion" in it not reduction. I only play WvW and PvP. What extra content did my players get? Answer: They got down graded in relation to new players. BTW...15-20 expansion pack? Where? 30 bucks for no extra content and 1 trait line for your toon. Oh you want both expansions that 45 bucks. For 1 trait line. That you now HAVE to choose to maximize your wvw toons. What a bad value. How about I just pay for the expansion part I use? Take a guess what that would be? How much did adding the player skill cost them vs new maps and story and etc. Almost nothing. Not going to pay for PVE as a PVP/WVW player. Super bad value.

[Skeletor.9360]

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"Aleen.8561" said:

> > On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

>

> Good post to bump. **This is a buy to play game.** If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

 

Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

[Skeletor.9360]

> @"Defias.1892" said:

> > @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

> >

> > Great example.

> > I may be wrong but I don't think level cap applies to expansion.

> > You made my case.

> > Level your toon to max level in base wow. You have access to all skills on the character.

> > Can't go on expanded questing.

> > PvP...its level based BTW. So no you don't get a level 110 crushing a level 18. There are level restrictions always ending in the top level you can achieve.

> > Open world PVP? Does not exist in WoW for the most part.

> >

> > So ya. WoW does it right. GW2 does it wrong. That is why I wanted WvW/PvP to allow any classes to be specced. PvP already uses a different talent build system and weapons.

>

> Lmao, you are ridiculous. WoW is so **poor in design** and **has been lagging behind GW2 in terms of introducing basic QoL changes**. And I say this as someone who has been loyally playing since Classic.

> 1. We didn't get multi-mob tagging until WoD

> 2. We didn't get a way to pay for subs/Blizzard Credit with gold until WoD patch 6.2 something

> 3. World Quests a.k.a. Dynamic Events didn't happen until Legion

> In Design, WoW has been lagging behind GW2 alot, and not much has changed. Mission tables are garbage mobile games and Rep Grinds are still stupidly painful and ridiculous.

>

> In, PVP, if you want to play WoW F2P, you are outclassed by level 29 twinks. If you play without BFA(the latest expansion), you are outclassed by people with Azerite Gear/HoA (both extremely powerful BFA items) at level 110 PVP. Warmode (**OR OPEN WORLD PVP**) includes all players from level 1-120, meaning that a level 120 can continually gank lower levels. At some point, Blizzard actually equalized all players, but when a level 80 twink started killing max level players, people complained and Blizzard reverted that scaling.

>

> But I mean, I'm guessing you haven't played WoW in a while, or else you would complain about having to spend $15 in addition to $50 for the expansion and call WoW P2W

 

You are arguing two different broken things in 2 different games. WoW has terrible level based power differences and gear differences which GW2 does not. GW2 has terrible class design...even worse than Wow because ALL classes are inferior if you don't buy the expansion. If they screwed up class balance in GW2 I wouldn't care because I have all but dragon hunter. If Dragon hunter would dominate all classes then the game would die quickly.

 

F2P - not applicable because my GW2 account was paid for. I'd have 20 slots on it if not for F2P.

In wow I'd be at level 60 with the original account and could twink my level 29 too. So then I'd be exactly the same as a guy who bought ALL the expansions. Because I only WvW. Open world PvP does not apply either. They unequalized things in WoW after equalization - Why? Bad players like pay to win! And... most players are bad. Which is why I win 90% of my fights on my free accounts! So why am I complaining then if I win 90% of the time? Because I want fair fights so I can compete against my peers.

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Skeletor.9360" said:

> > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > @"Aleen.8561" said:

> > > On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

> >

> > Good post to bump. **This is a buy to play game.** If you want to continue playing old content, that is your choice. You are not impacted in your ability to play through all the old content if you do not get an expansion - hence not p2w. WvW contains new content (where you end up fighting against expansion specs) and it is unreasonable to expect the ability to play through new content without buying it. The fact that you get access to fight against the new specs in WvW without the expansion means you're being given partial access to new content for free.

>

> Actually you made my point. I AM impacted by the new content. ALL of my original toons are inferior to new ones. So it is 100% pay to win. I don't "get" to play against players with better abilities...I am forced to. How about this. Make WvW only classic abilities. Then it is even. You still have those skills for PVE which is what the expansion is about. OR maybe add something for WvW.

 

You are NOT impacted in playing core content. That is what you paid for. Stop arguing that you somehow deserve to do well in new content you didn't even pay for.