Israel.7056 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > I don't know the specifics of it in detail enough to answer, but if you're paying real life money for a power advantage, continually, just as power, yeah, I think I would call that pay to win. But I don't want to malign any game without knowing first hand what I'm talking about, so let's keep it hypothetical. I can restate it as a hypothetical if you wish. Let's say you're playing a game where gear is really really important and you've spent a lot of time working on getting your gear through in game means. Let's say that you learn of someone buying high level/BiS gear from another person(s) through an online exchange. Let's say the purchaser now vastly outgears you and as a result has an enormous competitive advantage over you in PvP even though this person has put in none of the in game work you have. Would you then consider the purchaser to be "paying to win?" > We're expected to pay for expansions as part of the ongoing maintenance of the game. Those expansions, therefore, can include power creep, which almost all do, because players want to progress. They want to get stronger/better/more power. It's the nature of people. Progression is what drives MMOs. We've bought into a word/lore/story and now we're paying to continue that and because we're expected to do that, they can raise the player power. Granted. But that doesn't change the fact that you expected to pay real money on a regular basis to stay current with other people who also pay and to have a competitive advantage against those who do not. Another problem I have with this line of reasoning: what you call "pay to win" is now common practice which is to say it's an expected part of many games. It may have surprised at first you to see the freemium business model applied to MMOs years ago but at this point it's widely expected for certain *cough Korean cough* games to have some amount of regular purchases necessary just to stay current and then even more if you want to be really competitive. It varies from game to game but 50 dollars a month is nothing compared to what some of these modern MMOs require. So is it still "paying to win" in those games if it's an expected part of the game? > But when a company offers just power as a seperate purchase, or something that makes it a lot easier to get power, or disadvantages you if you don't buy that specifically, I'd call that pay to win. And I'd call a company where players can sell each other stuff for real money pay to win as well... theoretically. Obviously, each situation would have be judged differently and different people will have different lines. I don't disagree I just don't see xpacs, particularly the xpacs that Anet has released, as being any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > I don't know the specifics of it in detail enough to answer, but if you're paying real life money for a power advantage, continually, just as power, yeah, I think I would call that pay to win. But I don't want to malign any game without knowing first hand what I'm talking about, so let's keep it hypothetical. > > I can restate it as a hypothetical if you wish. Let's say you're playing a game where gear is really really important and you've spent a lot of time working on getting your gear through in game means. Let's say that you learn of someone buying high level/BiS gear from another person(s) through an online exchange. Let's say the purchaser now vastly outgears you and as a result has an enormous competitive advantage over you in PvP even though this person has put in none of the in game work you have. Would you then consider the purchaser to be "paying to win?" > > > We're expected to pay for expansions as part of the ongoing maintenance of the game. Those expansions, therefore, can include power creep, which almost all do, because players want to progress. They want to get stronger/better/more power. It's the nature of people. Progression is what drives MMOs. We've bought into a word/lore/story and now we're paying to continue that and because we're expected to do that, they can raise the player power. > > Granted. But that doesn't change the fact that you expected to pay real money on a regular basis to stay current with other people who also pay and to have a competitive advantage against those who do not. > > Another problem I have with this line of reasoning: what you call "pay to win" is now common practice which is to say it's an expected part of many games. > > It may have surprised at first you to see the freemium business model applied to MMOs years ago but at this point it's widely expected for certain *cough Korean cough* games to have some amount of regular purchases necessary just to stay current and then even more if you want to be really competitive. It varies from game to game but 50 dollars a month is nothing compared to what some of these modern MMOs require. So is it still "paying to win" in those games if it's an expected part of the game? > > > But when a company offers just power as a seperate purchase, or something that makes it a lot easier to get power, or disadvantages you if you don't buy that specifically, I'd call that pay to win. And I'd call a company where players can sell each other stuff for real money pay to win as well... theoretically. Obviously, each situation would have be judged differently and different people will have different lines. > > I don't disagree I just don't see xpacs, particularly the xpacs that Anet has released, as being any different. > Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying. If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > From Mike O’Brien... > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15523/a-message-about-the-mount-adoption-license > > > > “Hi, > > We made a commitment to you in March 2012 that we’d fund GW2 live development through non-pay-to-win microtransactions. We try different ideas, but we always hold true to that commitment...” > > > > Pretty sure the consensus among most gamers on what “pay to win” means wouldn’t include paid mmo expansions... That argument usually comes from players wanting, or feel entitled to, more free stuff from a company... > > > > Again, the OP could have just asked for elites to be unlocked in wvw, not create some over dramatic and misleading title and thread. Silly... > > > > > > Again i say to you that consensus is logically irrelevant. It might be an effective rhetorical device to appeal to the crowd for confirmation but logic doesn't care about what crowds think. > > The way you seem to think about argumentation is also incredibly cynical and I've seen you approach discussions like this before. You seem to assume that anyone who disagrees with you is a bad actor. This is a bad way to approach a discussion in my opinion. > > I feel neither entitled to anything in GW2 nor do I want anything for free from Anet or Mike O Brien. > > I'm simply saying that I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I didn't buy the expansions to have a competitive advantage over others who didn't buy them because I did. I knew what I was doing when I bought them and I'm not going to lie to myself or the OP to make myself feel better. That would be intellectually dishonest. > > That doesn't mean that I think p2w is morally wrong or that OP should get his silly legacy server request granted. If you read my initial responses you will see that i told him to basically deal with it or quit. Trying to shame a company for “pay to win” practices for having paid xpacs... that helps fund future development, goes to taxes, employee benefits and puts food on the table for nearly 400 employees and their families... is sad. Especially against a company that goes out of the way to be fair to all players. Yet again, instead of trying to insult Anet, the op could have simply requested to unlock elites in wvw, or made an effort to discuss improvements to profession mechanics, builds or designs... Instead (s)he chose to be petty with the “pay to win” junk. Silly thread, and sad to see simple concepts and business practices needing to be over-explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying. Well I have to ask what if it's now an expected part of gaming that in some games you can buy power out of a cash shop for real money? What if players who play these games now expect to be able to progress and get advantages over players who don't pay in that way? They could turn your argument around and say it's not "pay to win" because they expect the games to work like that. Would you then say their expectations are irrelevant? > If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly. It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF. Right. You got what you paid for. But as you can see, the OP is unwilling to pay for it and just wants it given to him because he spent money in the gem store in the past rather than spending money on the thing for sale. It's like saying, "I spent money buying pants at this store a year ago so they should give me this new shirt for free." Of course people will take something for free if given the chance and Anet does give out free stuff from time to time (i.e., balance patches with new traits/skills), but giving away all their development work for free and having no sustainable income for ongoing operations costs (salaries, data centers, etc.) is a bad business practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor.9360 Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > If you can find a game that doesn't ask for any money whatsoever in order to be able to play it and you prefer that game's gameplay to GW2 then play that other game. > > > > > > If you aren't the customer, you may be the product. Things only get worse out there for freeloaders than gw2 > > > > Missing the point. I paid MORE than someone who never has played the game and now buys the latest version. > > I didn't get any extra value because a free account is the same as mine now. > > Correct, your version (Vanilla Gw2) of the game went Free to Play years ago, did you expect the development of the original game to go unto perpetuity? > > > Its like buying a ticket on a boat. You get 1/2 across the river and they ask for the same amount again. If you don't pay people start calling you a free loader. > > You got your trip though, now that ticket is toilet paper. > > > > > Because all of the responses are from newbies...I'll just remind them (or inform them) that the game was advertised as pay once and the in game transactions were to pay for the remaining development. Then Richard Head decided to go for a money grab. Violating that original promise. That old model I agreed with and supported (And they made far more money from me then than this expansion ever will...it would take 7 more quick expansions...so..yeah go ahead and change your sales model. You've lost my support.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor.9360 Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 Also look up ultima online. But you are all too new to the mmorpg scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF. > > > Right. You got what you paid for. But as you can see, the OP is unwilling to pay for it and just wants it given to him because he spent money in the gem store in the past rather than spending money on the thing for sale. It's like saying, "I spent money buying pants at this store a year ago so they should give me this new shirt for free." > > Of course people will take something for free if given the chance and Anet does give out free stuff from time to time (i.e., balance patches with new traits/skills), but giving away all their development work for free and having no sustainable income for ongoing operations costs (salaries, data centers, etc.) is a bad business practice. I didnt say they should have given away anything for free or that I didn't get what I paid for I'm saying that literally the only reason I bought the xpacs was for the elite specs and for me to sit here and pretend otherwise would be disingenuous. They have to make money i get that but when they release xpacs and the only reason people like me are buying them is to be able to stay competitive that seems pretty "pay to win" to me. I paid to be able to win. Had I not paid I would've been at a huge competitive disadvantage against those who did pay especially before they went back over core specs to try to improve them post HoT. I wouldn't have even had access to rev for that matter I guess I would have still been running around on a pre buff vanilla warr trying to fight all the pre wall of nerf heralds lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF. > > > > > > Right. You got what you paid for. But as you can see, the OP is unwilling to pay for it and just wants it given to him because he spent money in the gem store in the past rather than spending money on the thing for sale. It's like saying, "I spent money buying pants at this store a year ago so they should give me this new shirt for free." > > > > Of course people will take something for free if given the chance and Anet does give out free stuff from time to time (i.e., balance patches with new traits/skills), but giving away all their development work for free and having no sustainable income for ongoing operations costs (salaries, data centers, etc.) is a bad business practice. > > I didnt say they should have given away anything for free or that I didn't get what I paid for I'm saying that literally the only reason I bought the xpacs was for the elite specs and for me to sit here and pretend otherwise would be disingenuous. They have to make money i get that but when they release xpacs and the only reason people like me are buying them is to be able to stay competitive that seems pretty "pay to win" to me. I paid to be able to win. Had I not paid I would've been at a huge competitive disadvantage against those who did pay especially before they went back over core specs to try to improve them post HoT. I wouldn't have even had access to rev for that matter I guess I would have still been running around on a pre buff vanilla warr trying to fight all the pre wall of nerf heralds lol. Why do you keep talking past everyone and going out on a tangent regarding what the definition of pay-to-win is when the OP wants expansion classes for free in WvW or for core to be separated from expansion WvW again for free? I didn't say YOU said they should have given anything away for free or that YOU didn't get what you paid for. Jesus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius.2140 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 To be honest, paying 50 dollars for only the elite specs is a lot isnt a good deal (some players will touch anything outside of pvp). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor.9360 Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF. > > > > > > > > > Right. You got what you paid for. But as you can see, the OP is unwilling to pay for it and just wants it given to him because he spent money in the gem store in the past rather than spending money on the thing for sale. It's like saying, "I spent money buying pants at this store a year ago so they should give me this new shirt for free." > > > > > > Of course people will take something for free if given the chance and Anet does give out free stuff from time to time (i.e., balance patches with new traits/skills), but giving away all their development work for free and having no sustainable income for ongoing operations costs (salaries, data centers, etc.) is a bad business practice. > > > > I didnt say they should have given away anything for free or that I didn't get what I paid for I'm saying that literally the only reason I bought the xpacs was for the elite specs and for me to sit here and pretend otherwise would be disingenuous. They have to make money i get that but when they release xpacs and the only reason people like me are buying them is to be able to stay competitive that seems pretty "pay to win" to me. I paid to be able to win. Had I not paid I would've been at a huge competitive disadvantage against those who did pay especially before they went back over core specs to try to improve them post HoT. I wouldn't have even had access to rev for that matter I guess I would have still been running around on a pre buff vanilla warr trying to fight all the pre wall of nerf heralds lol. > > Why do you keep talking past everyone and going out on a tangent regarding what the definition of pay-to-win is when the OP wants expansion classes for free in WvW or for core to be separated from expansion WvW again for free? I didn't say YOU said they should have given anything away for free or that YOU didn't get what you paid for. Jesus... > > Israel is talking on point. It is you that have missed the point. Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade: Downgrade option 1: I can keep playing the classes I want - and be at a disadvantage because of blocked off skills. Downgrade option 2: I don't have choices of style. Sure I can make lesser specs... But the point of WvW is to defeat another player....so you want non-weak specs. The real issue is that the new specs are broken so badly they removed choice. Oh and BTW. I am very successful at what I do. But it is annoying to lose because the other guy had a better set of skills to choose from. Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade: And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand! > Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things. Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor.9360 Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > I don't know the specifics of it in detail enough to answer, but if you're paying real life money for a power advantage, continually, just as power, yeah, I think I would call that pay to win. But I don't want to malign any game without knowing first hand what I'm talking about, so let's keep it hypothetical. > > > > I can restate it as a hypothetical if you wish. Let's say you're playing a game where gear is really really important and you've spent a lot of time working on getting your gear through in game means. Let's say that you learn of someone buying high level/BiS gear from another person(s) through an online exchange. Let's say the purchaser now vastly outgears you and as a result has an enormous competitive advantage over you in PvP even though this person has put in none of the in game work you have. Would you then consider the purchaser to be "paying to win?" > > > > > We're expected to pay for expansions as part of the ongoing maintenance of the game. Those expansions, therefore, can include power creep, which almost all do, because players want to progress. They want to get stronger/better/more power. It's the nature of people. Progression is what drives MMOs. We've bought into a word/lore/story and now we're paying to continue that and because we're expected to do that, they can raise the player power. > > > > Granted. But that doesn't change the fact that you expected to pay real money on a regular basis to stay current with other people who also pay and to have a competitive advantage against those who do not. > > > > Another problem I have with this line of reasoning: what you call "pay to win" is now common practice which is to say it's an expected part of many games. > > > > It may have surprised at first you to see the freemium business model applied to MMOs years ago but at this point it's widely expected for certain *cough Korean cough* games to have some amount of regular purchases necessary just to stay current and then even more if you want to be really competitive. It varies from game to game but 50 dollars a month is nothing compared to what some of these modern MMOs require. So is it still "paying to win" in those games if it's an expected part of the game? > > > > > But when a company offers just power as a seperate purchase, or something that makes it a lot easier to get power, or disadvantages you if you don't buy that specifically, I'd call that pay to win. And I'd call a company where players can sell each other stuff for real money pay to win as well... theoretically. Obviously, each situation would have be judged differently and different people will have different lines. > > > > I don't disagree I just don't see xpacs, particularly the xpacs that Anet has released, as being any different. > > > > Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying. > > If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly. You just pay to be in the "win" club. Glad you agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"MachineManXX.9746" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > Sorry I'm going to by years of experience here into how the term P2W was both used and interpreted. People can change the definition now if they want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the term loses all meaning if it applies to every single MMO and therefore, it loses all usefulness. > > > > > > Ok well with all due respect I personally think that anecdotal experience, whether yours or mine, is largely irrelevant in a discussion like this. If you accept the semantic framework of what people are trying to say when they talk about "pay to win" then I think you must concede that there's some amount of it present in almost all games, including GW2. > > > > > > The term "pay to win" might lose some of its sting as a pejorative to be leveled at a game once people realize that almost all games involve some amount of pay to win but so what? It's a largely nebulous insult that's arbitrarily leveled at games by people who simply can't afford the buy in. > > > > > > > It doesn't matter how much money. It was about cash shop purchases that had to be done regularly. Some games require potions that you can only get in the cash shop in the quantity you need. People would pay big money every single month to be able to raid with their guilds. If you haven't seen those games, I'm sure you can find them. Selling an expansion every couple of years, which includes multiple zones, and story along with the elite spec has never been considered pay to win. In all the years I played Guild Wars 1, I'd never heard it been called pay to win and I don't hear WoW called pay to win even though you need to buy expansions to get the power to beat other people. There are examples in this very thread of why that is. > > > > > > I don't think the frequency of the purchases matters I think what matters is the competitive advantage the purchases are intended to bestow upon the purchaser regardless of the frequency or nominal dollar value of said purchases. > > > > > > So for instance let's say you're playing Archeage and you're trying to get the BiS gear for two years and then someone comes along and spends 20k over a handful of purchases to have all the BiS gear you've been working towards that entire time and now he vastly outgears you despite having done none of the in game work you have done to try acquire the same gear and this gives him a significant competitive advantage over you and anyone else he outgears (which is probably almost everyone) that he wouldn't have had otherwise. He doesn't have to keep making purchases after that point to maintain that enormous advantage until someone either spends more than he did to get the next best thing or alternatively someone gets very very very lucky through in game means (which in that game was extremely time consuming to even attempt.) > > > > > > Still you would presumably call that "pay to win" right? If so then I think it's clear that what you would be calling out as "pay to win" would fundamentally be the use of real money purchases to attempt to gain in game competitive advantages regardless of frequency of purchases or nominal dollar amount of said purchases. If you wouldn't call that "pay to win" then why not? > > > > > > > Because if you start calling every MMO pay to win, what's the point. Those who played pay to win games can probably fill you in on the specifics better than I can. But I was there for a lot of those conversations and not one of them included expansions. If you want to raise the bar, you might as well drop the term. Because it's lost every single iota of meaning this way. > > > > > > The point to me is that every single MMO I've ever played has been p2w to some degree or another and for me to pretend otherwise would be intellectually disingenuous on my part and I'd rather be honest about what I think than lie and attempt to perform the mental gymnastics required to try to preserve a gaming pejorative that frankly seems messy to me to begin with. > > > > It seems to me you are arguing, just for the sake of arguing. If every game you have ever played is pay to win, then the way you use the term has no meaning. If every game ever played was pay to win, why would the term even be brought up? We are obviously discussing something different. Now, if you choose to open your eyes and realize this discussion is about something different than your self imposed literal definition, then maybe you would have something meaningful to add. > > I'm essentially just agreeing with the op about the xpacs being pay to win. Maybe read the thread next time before posting in a thread just a suggestion. > > With pay to win in mmos the difference is always in the degree which is where people draw arbitrary lines in the sand depending on their own purchasing power and relative willingness to spend money on a given game. As I said before some people have no problem spending thousands on a game whereas others might draw the line at a hundred dollars. Gw2 has what I consider to be very affordable pay to win expansions but for some it might be too expensive. Its not pay to win to its pay to continue playing the story and other stuff. If you dont want to continue paying its nice of them to let you keep playing the old content, you may not be as effective as some of the new elite specs perhaps but you can still play and compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > then the expansion packs came out and there was no reason to buy the game anymore. If there is no reason to buy the game anymore, why did you create this thread? Still destroying your own argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanya.1697 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 removing elite specs from wvw and spvp would be the best solution as pre HoT the game was much better balanced as it is now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor.9360 Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 Because it was wrong to do what they did after promising to not be p2w. And it would be nice if I wan't downgraded. The fact that they made my account the same as a free one is on them. They should have time boxed them or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor.9360 Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > > Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade: > > And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand! > > > Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things. > > Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument. > Using your example: I bought a shirt from them. They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt. Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last. Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > > > Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade: > > > > And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand! > > > > > Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things. > > > > Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument. > > > > Using your example: > > I bought a shirt from them. > They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt. > Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last. > > Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it. Still you can beat elite specs with core account specs so no problem then right? its more like you have your old shirt and the free ones got a battery acid holed shirt that can be traded in for a smiliar old shirt you have. the deal is if they or you buy expansions you got these nice pair of pants that you can use aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > > > Notice I have paid in transactions about 5 expansion packs worth plus I had the digital deluxe. So no. it is not wanting something for free. Its about not getting down graded and coerced into buying an expansion pack that is a downgrade: > > > > And yet you want them to turn on expansion classes for WvW for free. You want the new shirt for free because you bought several pairs of pants last year. Entitlement isn't difficult to understand! > > > > > Lastly to completely destroy your stupid argument. WvW IS free! I don't "want WvW for free" I have WvW for free! In fact I have 4 toons on 2 free accounts I play on. Whats the difference between them and my paid for account. Really nothing of significance. Less bags and a few other "don't care about" things. > > > > Free accounts come with restrictions that can be removed by purchasing a paid account. If the difference is "really nothing of significance", then why do you keep demanding that expansion classes get turned on for free in WvW? You destroyed your own argument. > > > > Using your example: > > I bought a shirt from them. > They later come up to me and spray me with battery acid putting holes in my perfectly good shirt. > Then they say...hey we'll sell you another shirt! After all that shirt wasn't meant to last. > > Oh...and comprehension skills for the win...that was comparing my current account to a free one. Bags and some areas you can't speak...no flying...thats about it. No one sprayed battery acid on your perfectly good shirt. It is still usable for 2012's fashion. No, you are not entitled to an upgrade to 2018 fashion for free just because you bought a shirt in 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddie.5861 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Classic wvw server and gw2 is dead on all other servers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > Yes if you can spend real money JUST to get a power advantage, and NOTHING ELSE, that would be pay to win. But an expansion isn't just a power advantage. It's the continuation of the game. When you buy an MMO you're buying access, not a game. It's like buying a membership to a club. That's just the way it is. In the old days you had a sub. You'd just pay the sub. If you stopped paying the sub, you had to stop playing the game. So yeah, you had to pay to play, which I guess means you'd pay to win as well, since you couldn't play at all without paying. This is a very similar thing. It's a purchase instead of a sub, to let you keep playing. Because you're expected to move forward and continue with the game, it's okay to raise the power. Because you're buying an entire game, not just power. The power is incidental to what you're buying. > > Well I have to ask what if it's now an expected part of gaming that in some games you can buy power out of a cash shop for real money? What if players who play these games now expect to be able to progress and get advantages over players who don't pay in that way? They could turn your argument around and say it's not "pay to win" because they expect the games to work like that. Would you then say their expectations are irrelevant? > > > If you only PvP, well, that doesn't matter. As I said it's like buying a Season ticket to Disney World, but only riding roller coasters. Not enough of them to make that worth it, and you'd have to decide it. Keep in mind, the game simply isn't meant to be free forever. It's a membership you're paying for...even if you're not paying for it monthly. > > It matters to me because I bought the xpacs solely to get a power advantage and I did so knowingly. The only reason I bought them was for the elite specs. If they'd given out the elites for free in WvW I'm sure myself and many many others would never have bought HoT or PoF. > Yes, it's expected that some games will sell power alone out of the cash shop and those games are pay to win. And calling them so you'll be using the name right. There are people who won't play those games because they don't want to play a pay to win game. But those that understand the funding system of MMOs will still buy an MMO that requires you to buy expansions because it's expected that if you're going to continue to play the game, you'll support it by buying those expansions. For people who don't minding paying to win, they'll know which games they are. Once every game is pay to win the term loses its original definition. We then can't decide between the original types of games, funded by expansions and the new games, funded by pay to win. There is a difference, even if you personally don't pay most of the game. It's like buying a car for the leather seats and then claiming you shouldn't have to pay for the motor. It's still a car. It's made to be a car. If you're just paying to sit in the seat, that's on you. This isn't a PvP game. It's a game. You pay for it and support it or all bets are off. Whether you don't play the rest of the game or not, the company is still paying the employees making and supporting the game. And make no mistake. If the PvE portion of this game was removed, there would be no game and you'd be playing nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > Also look up ultima online. But you are all too new to the mmorpg scene. I don't need to look up Ultima Online since I sold it in my computer store. How many people do you think worked on that game? What do you think it's budget was? How much continual content came out for it? If you're going to compare what is essentially the very first sandbox game in an evolving industry with that happens 20 years down the road in an industry that changes every few years, you can go right ahead. No one had to fund Ultimata online like an MMO because it wasn't created like an MMO, certainly not a modern one, it wasn't funded like an MMO. It's a different game from a different era that played by different rules. Once you pass the archaic games like that you end up with games that charge a monthly fee. Guild Wars 1 (though not a true MMO) didn't charge a monthly fee at all and it was the only multiplayer online fantasy game at the time that could make that claim. That's why it did as well as it did. You had to pay a monthly fee for the MMOs around at that time. Those MMOs all charged a monthly fee, they charged for expansions as well, and you kept getting more and more powerful because people want to progress. That was the formula to sustain the games, something Ultima Online didn't use because it was made far more cheaply with far fewer employees. The expectations upon buying that game was different. Free to play games came out with a different business model. See? Ultima had it's business model, WoW had it's business model and Guild Wars has it's business model. People who expect to play forever without ever spending a cent are simply not understanding the business model. Which has nothing to do with selling power as a seperate object in the cash shop, which is what pay to win originally mean. The term wasn't even coined until free to play MMOs broke onto the scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Skeletor.9360" said: > Because it was wrong to do what they did after promising to not be p2w. And it would be nice if I wan't downgraded. The fact that they made my account the same as a free one is on them. They should have time boxed them or something. What's wrong is misusing the term pay to win to try to prove a point that most of the people in this thread have disagreed with. MMO players expect to buy expansions for the game as a whole to continue. They don't expect to buy power as a seperate purchase in the cash shop. You'd be perfectly within your rights to say, I don't think that there should be power creep in expansions I don't think it's fair. But using the term pay to win makes your argument weaker, because many people are using the original definition of pay to win and immediately dismiss your claims. All you've really done here is hamstrung your own argument. You've made it weaker by insisting on hanging onto a term that most the MMO community is going to disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 So... If anet released just the elite specs on the store without a option to purchase with gems. Would that not be considered pay to win? Pretty sure its paying for a power boost as with every other game that is associated with being p2w. Pretty much the same thing as what we have now, its just called expansion packs. "Expansion is how they support themselves" is such a bs argument when they have a cash shop + a legal gold buying store built into there game. How much is the actual game being funded with just expansion sales? To me the game doesn't seem to be doing any better then it has the past few years with its "expansion sales" from a PvP/WvW player's perspective. Aside from more cash shop skins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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