Delete all traits related to vulnerability

[Buran.3796]

> Revenant used to have a lot of skills which procced vulnerability, usually in active form (you cast a skill which procs or has a chance to proc vulnerability). Now most of those sources are gone except for the trident, which has use in 0,0000000002% of the content of the game. So please clear all those fossil tatters from old gameplay no longer trendy such Expose Defenses, Ashen Demeanor, Focused Siphoning and Targeted Destruction and replace them instead with new ones with some kind of use. Currently vulnerability in Revenant has the same use as poison or torment in Elementalist. Those traits are trash and to fill space which could have better use.

[Miles Smiles.8951]

yeah, changing Mutilate Defenses to Expose Defenses was triggering af. Now they also removed the vuln from Burst of Strength. Seems like they know what they're doing. will they remove vuln from sword autos next?

[ethanzephyr.7298]

Yeah, Expose Defenses was baloney. Now you **must** use Sword mainhand for it to work properly, since nobody ever really uses the elite skills on Revenant. I wouldn't mind Mutilate Defenses coming back, or at least making it so Shiro/Devastation don't have the problem of shrinking lifesteal potential.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

Haha classic Anet move during that patch.

 

"GOOD NEWS BOYS WE'RE NERFING CONDITIONS CHECK OUT THIS SICK CONDITION BUILD NERF"

 

Nerfs Vulnerability in power trait line. Good thing I have one of each class or my rev would've gone bye bye forever ago.

[aimz.6287]

> @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> yeah, changing Mutilate Defenses to Expose Defenses was triggering af. Now they also removed the vuln from Burst of Strength. Seems like they know what they're doing. will they remove vuln from sword autos next?

 

You do know that when your in a group and the 25 vul stacks are already there on the first few hits from the whole team. It’s just redundant.. why would you want this.. the 15% extra dmg for 5 seconds is so much better than having vul stacks........... why stack something that’s already at max potential l. When you could have 15% extra dps... Do you know how good that is yet you complain because we don’t have enough vul strikes... really....... this discussion is awful and complaining and wanting to take away the 15% extra dmg over 10 stacks of vul(and I will say this again the team will already have 25 stacks on the enemy so it’s pointless) would absolutely kill our dps... in raids.. in open world.. in wvw.. probably even pvp........ dot dot dot.........

[idolin.2831]

> @"aimz.6287" said:

> > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > yeah, changing Mutilate Defenses to Expose Defenses was triggering af. Now they also removed the vuln from Burst of Strength. Seems like they know what they're doing. will they remove vuln from sword autos next?

>

> You do know that when your in a group and the 25 vul stacks are already there on the first few hits from the whole team. It’s just redundant.. why would you want this.. the 15% extra dmg for 5 seconds is so much better than having vul stacks........... why stack something that’s already at max potential l. When you could have 15% extra dps... Do you know how good that is yet you complain because we don’t have enough vul strikes... really....... this discussion is awful and complaining and wanting to take away the 15% extra dmg over 10 stacks of vul(and I will say this again the team will already have 25 stacks on the enemy so it’s pointless) would absolutely kill our dps... in raids.. in open world.. in wvw.. probably even pvp........ dot dot dot.........

 

I agree that in instanced PvE it might be redundant to have vulnerability on Burst of Strength, but in PvP or small-scale WvW, where you're often alone or with only 1 or 2 more people, it's really useful to be able to inflict vulnerability, you can't reliably count on allies to do that for you, and plus you're actually doing a favor to allies by inflicting vulnerability on enemies. It definitely is better to have that on Burst of Strength in those competitive game modes.

[Carighan.6758]

I wish someone would sit down and re-do the whole boon/condition system.

 

Before the design target changed to "individually weak but spammable", the concept behind it was damn neat. WoW had to jump through a *lot* of hoops until it had a unified, organized, raid buff and debuff system, which buffs and debuffs were equivalent, etc etc.

 

GW2 comes out, and has that **right out of the box**. But then there's also 15000 unique effects which don't stack and yet ultimately... I mean, how many variants of "do more damage" (should be Might) and "take less damage" (should be Protection) or "move faster" (should be Swiftness) do we have? It's silly. We have a unified boon system, it needs to be evolved and used, not half-abandoned out of what seems to be sheer laziness during design.

[Miles Smiles.8951]

> @"aimz.6287" said:

> > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > yeah, changing Mutilate Defenses to Expose Defenses was triggering af. Now they also removed the vuln from Burst of Strength. Seems like they know what they're doing. will they remove vuln from sword autos next?

>

> You do know that when your in a group and the 25 vul stacks are already there on the first few hits from the whole team. It’s just redundant..

You do know there are game modes where groups don't stack 25 vuln and enemies can spam condi cleanses, don't you? And the trait lines are supposed to make sense in every game mode, aren't they? There's even the skill split mechanic between modes to help this cause.

 

 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

The one that makes the least sense to me is Exponse Defenses. Why they would introduce an Opening Strike-like mechanic is beyond me. The Devastation line is clearly aimed towards power damage, and Expose Defenses arguably has the most synergy with a condi build. Regardless it is a badly designed trait.

[Coronit.9432]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> The one that makes the least sense to me is Exponse Defenses. Why they would introduce an Opening Strike-like mechanic is beyond me. The Devastation line is clearly aimed towards power damage, and Expose Defenses arguably has the most synergy with a condi build. Regardless it is a badly designed trait.

 

Not really. I mean, before it was a passive trait that converted into a well telegraphed with certain conditions reusable trait (it lets you "burst" more with elite skills). Thats actually something we want more in the game. Its just hilarious that from ALL passive traits in the game they chose to remake that one. One of the least damaging, but synergising (you need vulnerability uptime for certain traits) ones. Is the constant rapid application of cover condis bad for competitive game modes? Absolutely, one person able to mantain for example perma weakness even when cleansed makes fights with some condi builds a terrible clusterfuck. Is it that much of a problem in a power traitline? Maybe, in comination with more people playing condi builds, as said.

 

Rev in general is a wonderful example of fucked up traitlines and traits. Synergy is lacking everywhere and some traits are just weird. Like having protection on heal in the HERALD line. When you heal incoming damage with the herald legend. So you heal LESS, because less incoming damage to heal you. Amazing...

Or the fact that there isn't really any good trait at the adept ones in devestation if you run staff/hammer/SB only, except a downstate stun. But two rival traits both good for dual wielding and grant flat damage...

 

I still can't comprehend the decision to create the new trait "rising momentum". Its either completely OP if it stacks with other movement speed increases or useless in any regard if it doesn't.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> Haha classic Anet move during that patch.

>

> "GOOD NEWS BOYS WE'RE NERFING CONDITIONS CHECK OUT THIS SICK CONDITION BUILD NERF"

>

> Nerfs Vulnerability in power trait line. Good thing I have one of each class or my rev would've gone bye bye forever ago.

 

Good thing it was buffed everywhere but PvP because vuln stacks to 25 instantly in any type of group content

 

My god, some people are limited in their views

[Buran.3796]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

 

> Good thing it was buffed everywhere but PvP because vuln stacks to 25 instantly in any type of group content

>

> My god, some people are limited in their views

 

Raids are like less than 5% of the game content.

 

For open world PvE completion, dungeons, PvP and WvW roaming the skill was better as it was. Which isn't even the point of this thread: the point is that Rev was designed to have a wide access to active skills proccing vulnerability and a broad array of traits to take advantage of them. Now most of the skills sources that procced vulnerability no longer are there, so there's no need to waste 4 traits in a useless mechanic: replace them.

 

When Blizzard launched DIII RoS the crusader had access to five damage sources: physical, holy, fire, electricity and cold; later they chose to restrict each class to 4 kind of damage, so they removed all the cold spells from the crusader, which makes sense. Doesn't make sense to introduce a new weapon for the Rev (the trident) which procs vulnerability in each skill when at the same time they are removing the synergies with vulnerability in most departments of the game (including other skills and the usability of the traits). It's like the units which design the legends, the traits and the weapon skills for the class do work in different rooms with no contact with each others.

[Absconditus.6804]

Are we going to ignore the fact that Gaze of Darkness applies 10 stacks of Vulnerability? I understand that using it is using a (15s CD) stun breaker, but it still has the effect of being an **instant** AoE Blind that applies Revealed to 5 targets in a 360 radius as well. If all you used it for before were to break stuns you were somewhat missing out when dealing with Thieves, Mesmers and Engineers as well as defensively to avoid a hard hit if you were out of dodges. Chances are you used it offensively. On top of that it will apply Fury upon preparing the Consume skill, though that may be a bit redundant considering Deathstrike also applies said buff. Granted.. if paired with Incensed Response it becomes useful for Might stacking early in combat by adding an additional 10 stacks on top of the around 8-10 stacks you may have from running around channeling Facet of Strength and Elements with Shared Empowerment. It makes it very easy to reach 25 stacks of Might on your own very quickly with Unrelenting Assault adding additional Might.

 

The combination of Gaze of Darkness and Burst of Strength amounts to 25% increased damage, but 15% of this can't be cleansed now. Expose Defenses applies 5 stacks of Vulnerability, bringing the damage percentage to 30%, already pushing the modification higher than previously as the Vulnerability stack hits 15. Shackling Wave adds another 8 stacks of Vulnerability, pushing the combined Vulnerability to 23 stacks, where in the past this Vulnerability were at times "redundant". Two auto-attacks will add another 3, capping it at 25 stacks. All while you still get another 15% not-possible-to-cleanse damage boost from using and landing Burst of Strength. That's a 40% increased damage modification on your own, without help from anyone else, in a very short period of time. Don't forget that you can use Gaze of Darkness while you are using another skill, e.g., mid Burst of Strength.

 

While it would apply previously too, Targeted Destruction adds another 7% damage, while Ferocious Aggression increases it yet again with another 7%, Rising Tide should at least around initiation (and whenever we are above 90% health) grant you further 7%, and at that point we're sitting at 61% damage increased within a few seconds. We easily sit on boons, adding up to 5% extra damage at the very least briefly from Reinforced Potency, sometimes more if we are buffed from outside sources. Forceful Persistence can get you anywhere from 0% to perhaps 12-13% depending on what skills you are channeling or keeping up. These modifiers will fluctuate, but they are still worth remembering being there.

 

I don't see why you would request that they remove the Vulnerability options we got, because we can reach 25 stacks **and** get 15% damage from the reworked skill with relative ease. In PvP, yes, you can and will miss some hits, but you could and would miss hits from Burst of Strength in the past too — reliably you could perhaps land one swipe meaning if that still applies today, you have gained an increase of 5% damage with the rework and don't risk it being cleansed. I much prefer the reworked skill. Against AI, it is incredibly easy to apply 25 stacks of Vulnerability yourself. Against players, a tiny bit harder, but not impossible, and you only need 5 stacks for Burst of Strength to be on par with the old version, hmm, Expose Defenses does that for you. Also with our Sword auto-attacks applying 1 and 2 stacks on the first two hits, the various traits that trigger from having Vulnerability on a target is not exactly hard to maintain. What is there to complain about? Let me repeat this one more time;

 

> In PvP, yes, you can and will miss some hits, but you could and would miss hits from Burst of Strength in the past too — reliably you could perhaps land one swipe meaning if that still applies today, you have gained an increase of 5% damage with the rework and don't risk it being cleansed.

 

PS: It was said that the refresh condition of Expose Defenses were baloney above and that Revenants never use their Elite skills. Yeah, now **that** is baloney. If you never used Chaotic Release.. and we're complaining about a change done to the Legendary Dragon Stance here, right? You used Chaotic Release. That's an Elite. Also a counter argument given to it being redundant in modes where 25 stacks of Vulnerability is applied before you can even use your skills, being that there are modes where this is not the case and where enemies can spam **cleanses** seems.. huh? Wouldn't you rather have a non-removable 15% damage increase over a few stacks of Vulnerability that is then cleanse-spammed in that given scenario? If we should discuss shortcomings of the Herald reworks, we should probably look at the F2 and see if that can't be improved somehow, since very few of them feel worth maintaining, and it is straight up impossible to use together with some other channeled skills in PvP due to the pip cost exceeding our allotted pips.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > Haha classic Anet move during that patch.

> >

> > "GOOD NEWS BOYS WE'RE NERFING CONDITIONS CHECK OUT THIS SICK CONDITION BUILD NERF"

> >

> > Nerfs Vulnerability in power trait line. Good thing I have one of each class or my rev would've gone bye bye forever ago.

>

> Good thing it was buffed everywhere but PvP because vuln stacks to 25 instantly in any type of group content

>

> My god, some people are limited in their views

 

Lol maybe you're the one limited in your views if all you care about is situations with perfect conditions like organized PvE and squad WvW.

 

My bad bro, I tried to think of situations where I don't always have 2 FBs to carry me /s

[Buran.3796]

> @"Absconditus.6804" said:

 

> Expose Defenses applies 5 stacks of Vulnerability, bringing the damage percentage to 30%, already pushing the modification higher than previously as the Vulnerability stack hits 15. Shackling Wave adds another 8 stacks of Vulnerability, pushing the combined Vulnerability to 23 stacks, where in the past this Vulnerability were at times "redundant".

 

Expose Defenses is a random crap which barely has any use due aegis and passive defenses, and obviusly you won't spent an elite just for the sake of putting vuln in your enemies (by the way, I don't even use Destruction in PvP). As was said, vulnerability is unneeded in team content because there's so much classes able to stack it that the absence of a Rev wouldn't be missed, and for solo content/PvP I would prefer traits with more broad usage (or not so blatantly weak).

[Justine.6351]

I'm actually thinking about dropping devastation line because all its granting me atm is +20% vs foes below 50% hp and 150 ferocity. Pretty sad when a glass cannon says devastation line is bad.

[aimz.6287]

> @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > @"aimz.6287" said:

> > > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > > yeah, changing Mutilate Defenses to Expose Defenses was triggering af. Now they also removed the vuln from Burst of Strength. Seems like they know what they're doing. will they remove vuln from sword autos next?

> >

> > You do know that when your in a group and the 25 vul stacks are already there on the first few hits from the whole team. It’s just redundant..

> You do know there are game modes where groups don't stack 25 vuln and enemies can spam condi cleanses, don't you? And the trait lines are supposed to make sense in every game mode, aren't they? There's even the skill split mechanic between modes to help this cause.

>

>

 

Learn to use ur burst with the 15% extra dmg. You don’t need 10 stacks of vul to make you better stop your complaining

[Miles Smiles.8951]

> @"aimz.6287" said:

> > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > > @"aimz.6287" said:

> > > > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > > > yeah, changing Mutilate Defenses to Expose Defenses was triggering af. Now they also removed the vuln from Burst of Strength. Seems like they know what they're doing. will they remove vuln from sword autos next?

> > >

> > > You do know that when your in a group and the 25 vul stacks are already there on the first few hits from the whole team. It’s just redundant..

> > You do know there are game modes where groups don't stack 25 vuln and enemies can spam condi cleanses, don't you? And the trait lines are supposed to make sense in every game mode, aren't they? There's even the skill split mechanic between modes to help this cause.

> >

> >

>

> Learn to use ur burst with the 15% extra dmg. You don’t need 10 stacks of vul to make you better stop your complaining

 

We were talking about cohesiveness of traits and class mechanics. My ability to burst doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > Haha classic Anet move during that patch.

> > >

> > > "GOOD NEWS BOYS WE'RE NERFING CONDITIONS CHECK OUT THIS SICK CONDITION BUILD NERF"

> > >

> > > Nerfs Vulnerability in power trait line. Good thing I have one of each class or my rev would've gone bye bye forever ago.

> >

> > Good thing it was buffed everywhere but PvP because vuln stacks to 25 instantly in any type of group content

> >

> > My god, some people are limited in their views

>

> Lol maybe you're the one limited in your views if all you care about is situations with perfect conditions like organized PvE and squad WvW.

>

> My bad bro, I tried to think of situations where I don't always have 2 FBs to carry me /s

 

No, but please explain to me where this DOES NOT apply? Every fractal group will have lots of vuln, every open world encounter will have it permanently maxed as well. So calling my view limited when I made the one exception where it actually applies, in PvP because you can't rely on a second source of vuln, is beyond silly.

 

Cute attempt at using my words against me though. I rate 5/7

 

For real though? Who the hell cries that their damage got buffed? "Oh no, my utility!" said no one ever. You guys are stuck repeating the "rev is absolute garbage" of the past year, even though it stopped being true many months ago. You do you though, so have fun with that.

[Absconditus.6804]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"Absconditus.6804" said:

>

> > Expose Defenses applies 5 stacks of Vulnerability, bringing the damage percentage to 30%, already pushing the modification higher than previously as the Vulnerability stack hits 15. Shackling Wave adds another 8 stacks of Vulnerability, pushing the combined Vulnerability to 23 stacks, where in the past this Vulnerability were at times "redundant".

>

> Expose Defenses is a random crap which barely has any use due aegis and passive defenses, and obviusly you won't spent an elite just for the sake of putting vuln in your enemies (by the way, I don't even use Destruction in PvP). As was said, vulnerability is unneeded in team content because there's so much classes able to stack it that the absence of a Rev wouldn't be missed, and for solo content/PvP I would prefer traits with more broad usage (or not so blatantly weak).

 

I don't think it's fair to call Expose Defenses "random crap which barely has any use" simply because a certain class has access to Aegis as a passive defense at the start of combat. For the most part, it failing its application is due to the player being outplayed. For **solo** content, you aren't really going to encounter any initial blocks, I can't even think of any encounters where that is the case; I'd say it has its use for well over 90% of any solo content.

 

While I agree you probably shouldn't use Chaotic Release to refresh it, unless you really want to, you should and obviously will use Chaotic Release at some point during combat for Protection, CC, Superspeed, damage, to provoke a dodge or otherwise. Well, if we're talking about using Herald obviously, which seems to have sparked this whole complaint in the first place since Burst of Strength were changed to give a flat damage modifier over Vulnerability stacks. No, you won't use it every single fight, but when you do use it, it will refresh Expose Defenses, applying its effect again and renewing 5 stacks of Vulnerability. That newly added 5% damage on top of whatever other modifications you had at the time can be why you beat an opponent that otherwise would have beaten you. Or it may not be.

 

Can it fail to apply the Vulnerability? Yes, **everything** can be avoided. Without this **Minor** trait however, we will struggle far more reaching 25 stacks of Vulnerability at the start of combat when we're on our own. It's not technically useless in "casual" group content either, as you can easily be the first one to engage and instantly give the entire group 5% more damage on everything they do, that may or may not add more Vulnerability. Yes, at some point Vulnerability gets capped, but you are still refreshing it while you use your Elite(s) and reapply it once in a while. Is it as effective in a group scenario? No, and it won't necessarily be missed if you weren't there with your Minor trait, but it doesn't make it "random crap which barely has any use". Your group might perhaps miss your Assassin's Presence though.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > Haha classic Anet move during that patch.

> > > >

> > > > "GOOD NEWS BOYS WE'RE NERFING CONDITIONS CHECK OUT THIS SICK CONDITION BUILD NERF"

> > > >

> > > > Nerfs Vulnerability in power trait line. Good thing I have one of each class or my rev would've gone bye bye forever ago.

> > >

> > > Good thing it was buffed everywhere but PvP because vuln stacks to 25 instantly in any type of group content

> > >

> > > My god, some people are limited in their views

> >

> > Lol maybe you're the one limited in your views if all you care about is situations with perfect conditions like organized PvE and squad WvW.

> >

> > My bad bro, I tried to think of situations where I don't always have 2 FBs to carry me /s

>

> No, but please explain to me where this DOES NOT apply? Every fractal group will have lots of vuln, every open world encounter will have it permanently maxed as well. So calling my view limited when I made the one exception where it actually applies, in PvP because you can't rely on a second source of vuln, is beyond silly.

>

> Cute attempt at using my words against me though. I rate 5/7

>

> For real though? Who the hell cries that their damage got buffed? "Oh no, my utility!" said no one ever. You guys are stuck repeating the "rev is absolute garbage" of the past year, even though it stopped being true many months ago. You do you though, so have fun with that.

 

Our damage didn't get buffed lol. It was a side grade at best that only applies to fractals? And you want me to be excited for that? Yay I have been improved in 5+ year old content no one cares about anymore?

 

If you think this patch was a straught buff you do not play revenant at all. All the damage modifiers added/tweaked virtually add up to the same amount of damage. We lost all boons on f2.

 

>So calling my view limited when I made the one exception where it actually applies, in PvP because you can't rely on a second source of vuln, is beyond silly

 

What the fuck are you even trying to say? Yes your view is limited because all you seem to care about is conditions where someone else supplies 25 vuln lol. Idk what that word soup about PvP and a second vuln source is about. I just CANT rely on a second source of vuln so I why can't I just be happy about the patch!!! /s

 

>For real though? Who the hell cries that their damage got buffed? "Oh no, my utility!" said no one ever. You guys are stuck repeating the "rev is absolute garbage" of the past year, even though it stopped being true many months ago. You do you though, so have fun with that.

 

Ah I see you sound actually personally mad about the class. Sad but "you do you though"!

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"aimz.6287" said:

> > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > > @"aimz.6287" said:

> > > > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > > > yeah, changing Mutilate Defenses to Expose Defenses was triggering af. Now they also removed the vuln from Burst of Strength. Seems like they know what they're doing. will they remove vuln from sword autos next?

> > >

> > > You do know that when your in a group and the 25 vul stacks are already there on the first few hits from the whole team. It’s just redundant..

> > You do know there are game modes where groups don't stack 25 vuln and enemies can spam condi cleanses, don't you? And the trait lines are supposed to make sense in every game mode, aren't they? There's even the skill split mechanic between modes to help this cause.

> >

> >

>

> Learn to use ur burst with the 15% extra dmg. You don’t need 10 stacks of vul to make you better stop your complaining

 

Learn to play content where you can't rely on 9 other people to apply 25 vuln.