Why is that , that devs are so baised towards Elementalists?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > You probably misunderstood what I meant when I wrote it. Elementalists take staff in WvW because it's the best tool for control and support large amount of players not because it's the best weaponset ever for killing in zergs. It's just silly to argue that it's an inadapted range dps weapon when your main purpose for taking it is different.

> >

> > NB.: A range elementalist can always slot lightning hammer and use it to bash it's way in a melee fight just like other professions can switch to a melee weaponset. The only side effect is that you can't maintain lightning hammer, that's all (or you can liken that to a very long cool down on weapon swap).

> Given that staff eles are not built to be on the front-line, lightning hammer is a little impractical. And staff is by its very nature the best weapon for killing in zergs.

>

 

Would you have prefered if I suggested conjure shield... The point is more that the option for melee exist when one have to deal with it. To be honest, when I see elementalists player begging for a weapon switch because when they play a range weapon they can't react at melee range while spiting on conjure weapon, it always feel like looking at starving men refusing to eat the free cheap meal and asking for an expensive one instead.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > You seem very affected by this projectile hate that only affect staff auto attack... More seriously, elementalist is maybe one of the professions which is the most equiped to face projectile hate with it's range kits. I'd even dare say that most profession that auto attack at range in WvW suffer from the exact same issue with range hate. Now, if you find MS and other skill really that bad, maybe it's time for you to discover the scepter with it's marvelous fire and air auto attack non affected by range hate. You could even take the focus with the scepter and spitefully add your own range hate with _swirling winds_.

> It doesn't just affect staff autoattack. On staff weaver, you have four hard-hitting skills that can all be reflected or blocked (_Plasma Blast_, _Pressure Blast_, _Pile Driver_ and _Pyroclastic Blast_) which scuppers DPS potential considerably. As Tempest fulfills the support role, I don't see any viable support weaver builds with staff so naturally, I'd like it if they removed the healing component from _Pressure Blast_ and just increased the damage. Scepter is also 900 range, being mostly single-target, and so not really workable for large-scale fights; it used to be the case that you could play a skirmisher/ganker who focused targets but since they nerfed the damage, it's a lot of risk for a paltry reward.

 

I understand that staff weaver skills get hard countered by range hate, however, it doesn't mean that staff doesn't keep most of it's range aoe that disregard range hate. Now, even if they removed the healing component from _pressure blast_, you'd still have 2 aoe heal (even 3 if we count monsoon and it's generous 3s of regen every 1/4s) on staff weaver.

 

As for scepter, I'd say that most weaponskills that diregard range hate have the same specificities and that the elementalist don't really need to be jealous of other professions in this area.

[Axl.8924]

Can i ask you eles something? do you guys ever combine the deep freeze with protection? i mean its 50% reduction and a bit more, because i think using earth for protect is likle 44% so with deep freeze its 10% thats 54% dmg reduction total if it can be combined.Wouldn't you say thats worth it?

 

I'm going to try it now one sec

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

can eles stealth on a moment, one shot someone out of stealth and disappear into stealth and run away without trouble if hp ever gets low?

no?

 

then eles are not powerful at all.

 

The most broken OP classes are deadeyes and mirages (thieves in general tbh).

[Jski.6180]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > You probably misunderstood what I meant when I wrote it. Elementalists take staff in WvW because it's the best tool for control and support large amount of players not because it's the best weaponset ever for killing in zergs. It's just silly to argue that it's an inadapted range dps weapon when your main purpose for taking it is different.

> > >

> > > NB.: A range elementalist can always slot lightning hammer and use it to bash it's way in a melee fight just like other professions can switch to a melee weaponset. The only side effect is that you can't maintain lightning hammer, that's all (or you can liken that to a very long cool down on weapon swap).

> > Given that staff eles are not built to be on the front-line, lightning hammer is a little impractical. And staff is by its very nature the best weapon for killing in zergs.

> >

>

> Would you have prefered if I suggested conjure shield... The point is more that the option for melee exist when one have to deal with it. To be honest, when I see elementalists player begging for a weapon switch because when they play a range weapon they can't react at melee range while spiting on conjure weapon, it always feel like looking at starving men refusing to eat the free cheap meal and asking for an expensive one instead.

>

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > You seem very affected by this projectile hate that only affect staff auto attack... More seriously, elementalist is maybe one of the professions which is the most equiped to face projectile hate with it's range kits. I'd even dare say that most profession that auto attack at range in WvW suffer from the exact same issue with range hate. Now, if you find MS and other skill really that bad, maybe it's time for you to discover the scepter with it's marvelous fire and air auto attack non affected by range hate. You could even take the focus with the scepter and spitefully add your own range hate with _swirling winds_.

> > It doesn't just affect staff autoattack. On staff weaver, you have four hard-hitting skills that can all be reflected or blocked (_Plasma Blast_, _Pressure Blast_, _Pile Driver_ and _Pyroclastic Blast_) which scuppers DPS potential considerably. As Tempest fulfills the support role, I don't see any viable support weaver builds with staff so naturally, I'd like it if they removed the healing component from _Pressure Blast_ and just increased the damage. Scepter is also 900 range, being mostly single-target, and so not really workable for large-scale fights; it used to be the case that you could play a skirmisher/ganker who focused targets but since they nerfed the damage, it's a lot of risk for a paltry reward.

>

> I understand that staff weaver skills get hard countered by range hate, however, it doesn't mean that staff doesn't keep most of it's range aoe that disregard range hate. Now, even if they removed the healing component from _pressure blast_, you'd still have 2 aoe heal (even 3 if we count monsoon and it's generous 3s of regen every 1/4s) on staff weaver.

>

> As for scepter, I'd say that most weaponskills that diregard range hate have the same specificities and that the elementalist don't really need to be jealous of other professions in this area.

 

Monsoon is a projical it will get counter. The only tool in the game to deal with projectile hate is unblockables.

 

Some of the weaver scepter skills are projectiles as well.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> Monsoon is a projical it will get counter. The only tool in the game to deal with projectile hate is unblockables.

>

> Some of the weaver scepter skills are projectiles as well.

>

 

So, which weaver offensive trait are you willing to give up to have your unblockable effect on dual attunment skill?

[maddoctor.2738]

Developers are biased towards Elementalists because they deal too much damage on static Raid bosses while having babysitters to buff them, heal them, and revive them. When you only care about following your rotation, that is bloated with filler conjure skills to make the rotation-meta-slaves say "my rotation is complex!", Elementalist is good. When you don't have the luxury of a babysitter, like in any content outside Raids/Fractals, then they are really weak because the rotation (especially including Conjures) is impossible to follow when you have to also look at your survival. But Arenanet has shown that they balance around raid benchmarks lately so that's not going to change for a while, as long as Elementalists over-perform in those, they will get this kind of treatment.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > Monsoon is a projical it will get counter. The only tool in the game to deal with projectile hate is unblockables.

> >

> > Some of the weaver scepter skills are projectiles as well.

> >

>

> So, which weaver offensive trait are you willing to give up to have your unblockable effect on dual attunment skill?

 

EoR.

[Junkpile.7439]

Scepter/dagger vanilla ele needs some adjusting.

[Usagi.4835]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I understand that staff weaver skills get hard countered by range hate, however, it doesn't mean that staff doesn't keep most of it's range aoe that disregard range hate. Now, even if they removed the healing component from _pressure blast_, you'd still have 2 aoe heal (even 3 if we count monsoon and it's generous 3s of regen every 1/4s) on staff weaver.

>

> As for scepter, I'd say that most weaponskills that diregard range hate have the same specificities and that the elementalist don't really need to be jealous of other professions in this area.

 

What's your point? Besides the fact the regen is so negligible that it's absolutely useless, I don't want the healing component at all so by all means remove it. And given that **1)** it's highly unlikely one would build for support on a staff weaver and **2)** most people would only be hit by one pulse, I'd hardly call that generous...

 

I don't care for weaponswap myself and have yet to be convinced that condensing attunements from four to two for that reason would be a good change. I didn't get your second point.

 

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > Monsoon is a projical it will get counter. The only tool in the game to deal with projectile hate is unblockables.

> > >

> > > Some of the weaver scepter skills are projectiles as well.

> > >

> >

> > So, which weaver offensive trait are you willing to give up to have your unblockable effect on dual attunment skill?

>

> EoR.

 

Jski, I love you but please, no (though at this point, besides the 10% damage, EoR doesn't deserve to be a GM trait, thanks to successive nerfs).

[NaturallyNick.4058]

Zero bias for sure.

 

Ele (lowest tier in PvP): "Elemental Attunement working on double attunement? Terrible bug, must fix."

 

Engineer (mid-high tier in PvP): "Overcharged Shot hitting at 1200 range instead of 600? No bug here, the tooltip must be wrong..."

 

That elemental attunement change pretty much destroyed the spec and made it hilariously clunky to play. It's probably the least satisfying thing in the game right now. I'd love to hear the reasoning as to why the already strong engineer only had its tooltip changed, while the trash tier elementalist got one of its most crucial traits cut in half.

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"NaturallyNick.4058" said:

> Zero bias for sure.

>

> Ele (lowest tier in PvP): "Elemental Attunement working on double attunement? Terrible bug, must fix."

>

> Engineer (mid-high tier in PvP): "Overcharged Shot hitting at 1200 range instead of 600? No bug here, the tooltip must be wrong..."

>

> That elemental attunement change pretty much destroyed the spec and made it hilariously clunky to play. It's probably the least satisfying thing in the game right now. I'd love to hear the reasoning as to why the already strong engineer only had its tooltip changed, while the trash tier elementalist got one of its most crucial traits cut in half.

 

Yeah I still find myself double attuning in air at the start of the match. It's hard to get rid of bad (?) habits. I wish Lightning Strike received the same treatment. It was fun watching a thief/mesmer running away and receive divine punishment.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > I understand that staff weaver skills get hard countered by range hate, however, it doesn't mean that staff doesn't keep most of it's range aoe that disregard range hate. Now, even if they removed the healing component from _pressure blast_, you'd still have 2 aoe heal (even 3 if we count monsoon and it's generous 3s of regen every 1/4s) on staff weaver.

> >

> > As for scepter, I'd say that most weaponskills that diregard range hate have the same specificities and that the elementalist don't really need to be jealous of other professions in this area.

>

> What's your point? Besides the fact the regen is so negligible that it's absolutely useless, I don't want the healing component at all so by all means remove it. And given that **1)** it's highly unlikely one would build for support on a staff weaver and **2)** most people would only be hit by one pulse, I'd hardly call that generous...

>

> I don't care for weaponswap myself and have yet to be convinced that condensing attunements from four to two for that reason would be a good change. I didn't get your second point.

>

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > Monsoon is a projical it will get counter. The only tool in the game to deal with projectile hate is unblockables.

> > > >

> > > > Some of the weaver scepter skills are projectiles as well.

> > > >

> > >

> > > So, which weaver offensive trait are you willing to give up to have your unblockable effect on dual attunment skill?

> >

> > EoR.

>

> Jski, I love you but please, no (though at this point, besides the 10% damage, EoR doesn't deserve to be a GM trait, thanks to successive nerfs).

 

Having unblockable duel skills is significantly stronger then the old EoR.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > I understand that staff weaver skills get hard countered by range hate, however, it doesn't mean that staff doesn't keep most of it's range aoe that disregard range hate. Now, even if they removed the healing component from _pressure blast_, you'd still have 2 aoe heal (even 3 if we count monsoon and it's generous 3s of regen every 1/4s) on staff weaver.

> >

> > As for scepter, I'd say that most weaponskills that diregard range hate have the same specificities and that the elementalist don't really need to be jealous of other professions in this area.

>

> What's your point? Besides the fact the regen is so negligible that it's absolutely useless, I don't want the healing component at all so by all means remove it. And given that **1)** it's highly unlikely one would build for support on a staff weaver and **2)** most people would only be hit by one pulse, I'd hardly call that generous...

>

 

My point is that there is already enough support on staff to invalidate your argument.

 

> I don't care for weaponswap myself and have yet to be convinced that condensing attunements from four to two for that reason would be a good change. I didn't get your second point.

>

 

You may don't care about it but I initially answered someone that cared about it and my answer was directly correlated to this fact.

 

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > Monsoon is a projical it will get counter. The only tool in the game to deal with projectile hate is unblockables.

> > > >

> > > > Some of the weaver scepter skills are projectiles as well.

> > > >

> > >

> > > So, which weaver offensive trait are you willing to give up to have your unblockable effect on dual attunment skill?

> >

> > EoR.

>

> Jski, I love you but please, no (though at this point, besides the 10% damage, EoR doesn't deserve to be a GM trait, thanks to successive nerfs).

 

That's where the difference of point of view between a person that only care for gamemodes opposing players against each other and a person that care for all gamemodes lead to.

 

Personnally I think EoR should get rid of the damage increase and gain a flat 30% to 50% critical hit chance in it's stead. Which in return would free weaver from the necessity to gear with precision and with the 2nd bonus, promote taking vitality for even more crit chance. Which would increase weaver "passive" survivability in all gamemodes.

 

As for which trait I'd favor for unblockable effect, I'd say _elemental polyphony_ would be a good pick. And to balance for the damage loss from the 2 previous changes, swift revenge damage buff would be pushed to 10% and _master's fortitude_ stats convertion would be change to make vitality the base of the conversion not the one that benefit from it (in other word: 5% vitality converted to power and condition damage). Now, this end up with damage loss to the maximum potential damage but also make the weaver sturdier which in return make it's dps easier to land in all gamemodes.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> Scepter/dagger vanilla ele needs some adjusting.

 

Anet buffs shatterstone. :trollface:

[Jski.6180]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > I understand that staff weaver skills get hard countered by range hate, however, it doesn't mean that staff doesn't keep most of it's range aoe that disregard range hate. Now, even if they removed the healing component from _pressure blast_, you'd still have 2 aoe heal (even 3 if we count monsoon and it's generous 3s of regen every 1/4s) on staff weaver.

> > >

> > > As for scepter, I'd say that most weaponskills that diregard range hate have the same specificities and that the elementalist don't really need to be jealous of other professions in this area.

> >

> > What's your point? Besides the fact the regen is so negligible that it's absolutely useless, I don't want the healing component at all so by all means remove it. And given that **1)** it's highly unlikely one would build for support on a staff weaver and **2)** most people would only be hit by one pulse, I'd hardly call that generous...

> >

>

> My point is that there is already enough support on staff to invalidate your argument.

>

> > I don't care for weaponswap myself and have yet to be convinced that condensing attunements from four to two for that reason would be a good change. I didn't get your second point.

> >

>

> You may don't care about it but I initially answered someone that cared about it and my answer was directly correlated to this fact.

>

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > Monsoon is a projical it will get counter. The only tool in the game to deal with projectile hate is unblockables.

> > > > >

> > > > > Some of the weaver scepter skills are projectiles as well.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > So, which weaver offensive trait are you willing to give up to have your unblockable effect on dual attunment skill?

> > >

> > > EoR.

> >

> > Jski, I love you but please, no (though at this point, besides the 10% damage, EoR doesn't deserve to be a GM trait, thanks to successive nerfs).

>

> That's where the difference of point of view between a person that only care for gamemodes opposing players against each other and a person that care for all gamemodes lead to.

>

> Personnally I think EoR should get rid of the damage increase and gain a flat 30% to 50% critical hit chance in it's stead. Which in return would free weaver from the necessity to gear with precision and with the 2nd bonus, promote taking vitality for even more crit chance. Which would increase weaver "passive" survivability in all gamemodes.

>

> As for which trait I'd favor for unblockable effect, I'd say _elemental polyphony_ would be a good pick. And to balance for the damage loss from the 2 previous changes, swift revenge damage buff would be pushed to 10% and _master's fortitude_ stats convertion would be change to make vitality the base of the conversion not the one that benefit from it (in other word: 5% vitality converted to power and condition damage). Now, this end up with damage loss to the maximum potential damage but also make the weaver sturdier which in return make it's dps easier to land in all gamemodes.

 

As is EoR already freed weaver from any need from high precision with in reason as you want some precision for the air 7% precision goes to crit dmg.

 

As for game types it comes down to this pve is gw2 light. You simply do not need all of the effects of skill in gw2 to play pve but you need all of the diffrent effects on skills to play pvp. Unblockables are worthless in pve but are every thing in pvp. The only things of worth in pve are raw dmg power / condi, dmg -% mostly power, and healing just healing power. Pvp you need unblockables dmg or hard to deal with dmg types so mostly condi or power attks that hit harder vs lower hp targets, dmg -% mostly as way of blocks evasion or simply do not get hit effects, and condi clears barriers and passive heals over time as well as blunt healing.

 

Pvp needs all of the effects of gw2 or the full game of gw2 is in pvp where in pve your only getting part of the game. So for real balancing you MUST look at pvp with only an eye on max numbers for pve.

 

Short version: Pve only about raw numbers pvp is about added effects as well as raw numbers.

 

My build in wvw (keep in mind you get +30 to all most of the time in wvw also if you cant have perma fury run runes of rage it helps).

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQFAWnMMAtMgdOA+4CM5iFCALoAEAGACTyJQJ4+U/qn1A-jFSBABWquDjKBxTHAAPAAKVJ4KlfLcBAoZ/hAAHAO/8zP/8zr6peqv+6rXKgJGaB-w

 

Try it out all risk for viability not high reward. The high reward in gw2 is though def skills like blocks and projita hate. Ask your self is this work worth it when you can just go rev or scorge and do high enofe dmg that is much harder to deal with.

[Usagi.4835]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> My point is that there is already enough support on staff to invalidate your argument.

No, it doesn't... Because support on _staff weaver_ of all things was never a concern for me and shouldn't be for anyone else; it's not a support-oriented spec. If you're playing staff weaver, you're doing damage and will not go out of your way to attune into water twice. Did you read anything I said at all? What was my argument?

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> That's where the difference of point of view between a person that only care for gamemodes opposing players against each other and a person that care for all gamemodes lead to.

>

> Personnally I think EoR should get rid of the damage increase and gain a flat 30% to 50% critical hit chance in it's stead. Which in return would free weaver from the necessity to gear with precision and with the 2nd bonus, promote taking vitality for even more crit chance. Which would increase weaver "passive" survivability in all gamemodes.

>

> As for which trait I'd favor for unblockable effect, I'd say _elemental polyphony_ would be a good pick. And to balance for the damage loss from the 2 previous changes, swift revenge damage buff would be pushed to 10% and _master's fortitude_ stats convertion would be change to make vitality the base of the conversion not the one that benefit from it (in other word: 5% vitality converted to power and condition damage). Now, this end up with damage loss to the maximum potential damage but also make the weaver sturdier which in return make it's dps easier to land in all gamemodes.

 

Except players benefit from gearing with precision because it converts to ferocity if they pick Ferocious Winds in Air, which most of them will. I'm not trying to be facetious but I have to ask, do you even play ele? I'm fine with staff being countered by reflects/blocks but what I would like is for skills with a long wind-up to hurt when they hit. Instead of doing all of this work to try and recreate what weaver was like at launch, why not just revert the nerfs?

 

I've already professed my fondness for Jski but I think he's also in favour of rendering weaver obsolete to save core ele which almost nobody plays. Why concede and kowtow? The diminishing returns attached to _Meteor Shower_ and all of the nerfs between March and July were directly intended to unseat ele from the top of the golem DPS benchmarks. I think I've been quite clear that I don't care at all for raids but, as far as I know, unblockable isn't required in PvE so could you clarify which of the two of us cares for all game modes versus PvP/WvW?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > My point is that there is already enough support on staff to invalidate your argument.

> No, it doesn't... Because support on _staff weaver_ of all things was never a concern for me and shouldn't be for anyone else; it's not a support-oriented spec. If you're playing staff weaver, you're doing damage and will not go out of your way to attune into water twice. Did you read anything I said at all? What was my argument?

>

 

Ah, but that's your point of view. It doesn't mean that staff weaver cannot be used as a support build even if you don't concern yourself with it. You just can't restrict your point of view to what you think should be better regarding how **you** want to play something. You have to also take into account the fact that this something can be played in a different way. This is just like people thinking that scourge should be played only as a condi spec or reaper should only be played as a power spec, it's a narrow point of view that shouldn't ever be taken into account when it come to balance.

 

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > That's where the difference of point of view between a person that only care for gamemodes opposing players against each other and a person that care for all gamemodes lead to.

> >

> > Personnally I think EoR should get rid of the damage increase and gain a flat 30% to 50% critical hit chance in it's stead. Which in return would free weaver from the necessity to gear with precision and with the 2nd bonus, promote taking vitality for even more crit chance. Which would increase weaver "passive" survivability in all gamemodes.

> >

> > As for which trait I'd favor for unblockable effect, I'd say _elemental polyphony_ would be a good pick. And to balance for the damage loss from the 2 previous changes, swift revenge damage buff would be pushed to 10% and _master's fortitude_ stats convertion would be change to make vitality the base of the conversion not the one that benefit from it (in other word: 5% vitality converted to power and condition damage). Now, this end up with damage loss to the maximum potential damage but also make the weaver sturdier which in return make it's dps easier to land in all gamemodes.

>

> Except players benefit from gearing with precision because it converts to ferocity if they pick Ferocious Winds in Air, which most of them will. I'm not trying to be facetious but I have to ask, do you even play ele? I'm fine with staff being countered by reflects/blocks but what I would like is for skills with a long wind-up to hurt when they hit. Instead of doing all of this work to try and recreate what weaver was like at launch, why not just revert the nerfs?

>

 

I play elementalist as much as I play all other professions and I do this since launch (not launch of HoT or PoF, launch of the vanilla game), this help a lot when it come to look at the whole picture. I also roam the GW2's forum since a long time and the thing that elementalists tend to complain the most about is their low health pool and their inability to deal easily a great deal of damage in PvP. All in all the issue of the elementalist in PvP isn't the "damage" but the ability to land them while keeping their survivability to a reasonable level. That's why I suggest ANet to just let the elementalist enjoy a spec that allow them to gear for high health point.

 

As for the dual attunment skill (because I imagine that it's what you mean by long wind up skills) I agree that they are globally underwhelmings in both attack speed and cool down.

 

However, the nerfs on weaver were due most of the time. I don't say that the nerfs on core were (they obviously weren't since tempest used to be balanced before HoT) but weaver's one were. At the very begining ANet only had to change EoR to avoid the huge imbalance due to the spike of ferocity that wasn't there previously.

 

> I've already professed my fondness for Jski but I think he's also in favour of rendering weaver obsolete to save core ele which almost nobody plays. Why concede and kowtow? The diminishing returns attached to _Meteor Shower_ and all of the nerfs between March and July were directly intended to unseat ele from the top of the golem DPS benchmarks. I think I've been quite clear that I don't care at all for raids but, as far as I know, unblockable isn't required in PvE so could you clarify which of the two of us cares for all game modes versus PvP/WvW?

 

I don't think either that the diminishing return on MS and other "impact" skills was a wise change, like I said, tempest used to be balanced and the thing that created the imbalance of damage on weaver was EoR and it's spike of ferocity. Had they just removed EoR from the start, weaver and core wouldn't have had reason to be tweeked like they did. The problem is that ANet always try to balance things around what create the problematic instead of acknowledging from the start that something is problematic. And then they keep the poor balance choice they did even after they address the problematic thing (It's not a process unique to elementalist so there is no reason to think that they are particularly biased against the elementalist, it's just poor choice of balance that stem from a lack of foresight).

 

NB.: Unblockable isn't requiered in PvE but that doesn't mean that some mobs can't block a few attack (slimes as well as a few humanoid mobs for example have this ability), this mean that whatever the gamemode unblockable stay a convenience.

[Usagi.4835]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > My point is that there is already enough support on staff to invalidate your argument.

> > No, it doesn't... Because support on _staff weaver_ of all things was never a concern for me and shouldn't be for anyone else; it's not a support-oriented spec. If you're playing staff weaver, you're doing damage and will not go out of your way to attune into water twice. Did you read anything I said at all? What was my argument?

> >

>

> Ah, but that's your point of view. It doesn't mean that staff weaver cannot be used as a support build even if you don't concern yourself with it. You just can't restrict your point of view to what you think should be better regarding how **you** want to play something. You have to also take into account the fact that this something can be played in a different way. This is just like people thinking that scourge should be played only as a condi spec or reaper should only be played as a power spec, it's a narrow point of view that shouldn't ever be taken into account when it come to balance.

This sort of relativism gets you nowhere. You could do _anything_. After all, they did market the game under, "Play how you want," but this isn't strictly true. You can have patchwork builds which are 'workable' but never really 'viable', and there is a difference between meta and viable. By your logic, anything on staff ele could be billed as support if only because it has an autoattack in _Water Blast_ which heals. There is, however, a reason why they balance around the meta at large and not around niche or fringe builds.

 

_Aquatic Stance_ is thoroughly mediocre. There're no support-oriented traits in the Weaver line. They're not going to balance around 3 seconds of regen on _Monsoon_. Invigorating Strikes doesn't have enough appeal as a GM trait and is overshadowed by Woven Stride because of its synergy with Cleansing Water and the solution isn't to nerf Woven Stride but to tweak or give something to Invigorating Strikes so that the GM traits compete with but are also distinct from one another.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Silence.3702" said:

> Maybe its because they have some kind of a balance rotation where they decide to make one class really Tier S while keeping most of them tier A as well as making 1 or two tier B? a

> because balance is supposed to be a scenario where all classes are evenly strong and its skill which is supposedly supposed to make the difference?

>

> One thing i know is for sure, balancing Ele would take merely 10 minutes as its plainly adjusting by increasing and decreasing value lines untill weaver is a vailable 1v1 class, plainly decreasing massive healing power for more damage would be sufficient. it seems that evs dont /want/ to balance Ele other than trying to avoid making a balance mistake

 

Anytime I see a comment like this I am convinced that the person who said it doesn't understand anything about how to balance a profession (or class). If you honestly think balance would take 10 minutes, make your own game, spend 10 minutes balancing it and then let us know how that worked out for you.

 

> @"Poelala.2830" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > If balancing took 10 minutes per class, game would've been balanced 1 month after PoF.

>

> It may very well take 10 minutes per class. Though let's not forget that the people who are in charge of balancing the game have an insuperable ignorance and lack of judgment when inspecting the intricacies of a class, and their place in the health of the game as well as their ability to be fun and interesting. The Elementalist doesn't have any access to quickness? Let's give Reaper and Holosmith permanent quickness! The Warrior is finally balanced? Let's nerf it again! Let's make it so it loses more matchups than it wins by a factor of two. Ele *still* isn' doing damage after 3 years of not doing damage? Well, let's give fire measly condition clear and nerf The Elementalist's only viable build some more! There is **no** logic when it comes to this balancing effort. The game is worse this patch than it was the last one and it'll never get better.

 

I don't think you're discussing balance issues here but a difference in vision in what should happen. The idea that the balance team is ignorant is highly amusing. The problem with balance is that everyone's idea of balance is always colored by how well they feel their favorite profession is performing vs how well they think other professions are doing or frustrations with what other professions do to them. Even issues that are actually L2P issues are subsumed into the rubric of bad balance. But balance just isn't about the here and now but also the future. Balance patches include fixes for things but also adjustments for changes that are likely coming down the line but need to be tested and prepared for before being implemented. Balance is a lot more long-term than what most players consider.

 

There is plenty of logic to the balance effort. The problem is that players never get to see the full picture that that logic is based on. Since players are never privy to the entire picture things will never make sense.

[Poelala.2830]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Silence.3702" said:

> > Maybe its because they have some kind of a balance rotation where they decide to make one class really Tier S while keeping most of them tier A as well as making 1 or two tier B? a

> > because balance is supposed to be a scenario where all classes are evenly strong and its skill which is supposedly supposed to make the difference?

> >

> > One thing i know is for sure, balancing Ele would take merely 10 minutes as its plainly adjusting by increasing and decreasing value lines untill weaver is a vailable 1v1 class, plainly decreasing massive healing power for more damage would be sufficient. it seems that evs dont /want/ to balance Ele other than trying to avoid making a balance mistake

>

> Anytime I see a comment like this I am convinced that the person who said it doesn't understand anything about how to balance a profession (or class). If you honestly think balance would take 10 minutes, make your own game, spend 10 minutes balancing it and then let us know how that worked out for you.

>

> > @"Poelala.2830" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > If balancing took 10 minutes per class, game would've been balanced 1 month after PoF.

> >

> > It may very well take 10 minutes per class. Though let's not forget that the people who are in charge of balancing the game have an insuperable ignorance and lack of judgment when inspecting the intricacies of a class, and their place in the health of the game as well as their ability to be fun and interesting. The Elementalist doesn't have any access to quickness? Let's give Reaper and Holosmith permanent quickness! The Warrior is finally balanced? Let's nerf it again! Let's make it so it loses more matchups than it wins by a factor of two. Ele *still* isn' doing damage after 3 years of not doing damage? Well, let's give fire measly condition clear and nerf The Elementalist's only viable build some more! There is **no** logic when it comes to this balancing effort. The game is worse this patch than it was the last one and it'll never get better.

>

> I don't think you're discussing balance issues here but a difference in vision in what should happen. The idea that the balance team is ignorant is highly amusing. The problem with balance is that everyone's idea of balance is always colored by how well they feel their favorite profession is performing vs how well they think other professions are doing or frustrations with what other professions do to them. Even issues that are actually L2P issues are subsumed into the rubric of bad balance. But balance just isn't about the here and now but also the future. Balance patches include fixes for things but also adjustments for changes that are likely coming down the line but need to be tested and prepared for before being implemented. Balance is a lot more long-term than what most players consider.

>

> There is plenty of logic to the balance effort. The problem is that players never get to see the full picture that that logic is based on. Since players are never privy to the entire picture things will never make sense.

 

Okay so seeing as I'm so self-absorbed my scope doesn't encompass the whole of balance across all classes, let's look at some facts here:

Reaper was buffed with perma quickness

Holosmith was buffed with perma quickness

Revenant was soft buffed

Ele had a slight nerf to its only sub-meta slightly viable build.

Deadeye: No real changes

Guardian: Changes to staff but no changes to what people play, except harrier firebrand is now nerfed.

Spellbreaker: nerfed.

Let's see what this did: Pre-patch: Reaper and Scourge had more or less equal representation in ranked scenes before this terrible patch. Now? Reapers account for 90% of all necromancers you see, HURTING build diversity.

While revenant was slightly buffed, the buff to holosmith and reaper together made revenant an obsolete option when before it was a top tier class. Now revenants barely appear in any ranked scenes. This HURTS build diversity.

Ele: Hasn't been meta for an entire year, not one build it has had since the launch of PoF has survived arena-net's ridiculous nerfs, and their terrible, uninformed, and useless attempt at buffing elementalist proved that they know so little about the class and think so little of the suggestions of hundreds of elementalists mains that they believed they had enough brain cells to give ele representation in the meta when they ultimately failed. Ele is now more easily beaten by reapers and holosmiths due to their permanent quickness so this HURTS build diversity.

Deadeye is the ultimate zero counterplay build and they didn't think this is a problem... but Riptide was? LOL.

Anet sucks at balancing.

[Zawn.9647]

balance rotation? they've must lock mesmer on top and rotate the rest then :P

[Eddbopkins.2630]

I dont think there bias at all....i just dont think they underatand there own game/class mechanics or the synergys that happen with traits and skills...time and time again they do balance changes that the community didnt ask for or changes that nerfed the class into oblivion that im sure they didnt intend but happened because of there own lack of understanding of the class.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> I dont think there bias at all....i just dont think they underatand there own game/class mechanics or the synergys that happen with traits and skills...time and time again they do balance changes that the community didnt ask for or changes that nerfed the class into oblivion that im sure they didnt intend but happened because of there own lack of understanding of the class.

 

Same thing just be a different name realty.

 

What it comes down to is when you look at classes like rev who is effectively a heavry armor ele and how they buff its ability to do dmg and support in the same time interval as an ele it comes off as ele being the one left out in the cold and rev or ele like classes being given far more.

 

The lack of strong boon support is allways going to hold ele back every class gives out fury and protection and every class has perma self vigor. There is no point to ele support effects when the non support builds give out the same effects on a perma level.

 

Its comes down to ele is more its gear then a class. The class of ele is just a pure skin its the zerker combo or healing combo gear that going to do the real work and IS the real class. What you could even call a class like that the armor mages? or i guess you can call ele the cosplay mages.

 

 

[SnowHawk.3615]

Originally they could do it all. They could heal an unlimited amount of players for a large amount, CC unlimited enemies/enemy players- dish out huge damage while being able to sustain. However they had a high skill cap. Their hitbox AOE skills was toned down to 5 targets - completely understandable. However over time elementalist was gradually nerfed in the sustain department and their DPS remained untouched, their personal sustain became non existant in 2014-15. It was a high risk low reward class that provided only high DPS in groups so long they were willing to baby sit the supreme glass ele. Fast forward some time- and we were given the celestial meta. It was the perfect synergy between damage/self sustain however it was too OP in the right hands. It was of course Nerfed or taken away. Tempest was given to us- meant to be a sustain-y class, sustain was too great for others to handle and in the right hands unkillable. Nerfed. Some liked the "heal meta" for ele- but that wasn't what they were meant to be. Ele is supposed to be a jack of all trades master of none /hybrid class for a game that does not reward hybrid play, thanks to DPS checks in raids and so on. All thanks to the constant nerfs to the class for reasons such as "too OP" which really means a the player knows how to rotate, apply pressure and when to sustain. Or too much DPS for a light armor class. but take away their DPS and ele has nothing to really provide that other classes don't already do better. But in the end it's still retains a pretty decent sized skill cap to learn properly with engi having the highest IMO. It can still DPS nicely so long as they don't get another damage reduction % per hit again. But if you want to learn how to survive on ele- go zerk. play with your skills. don't face tank with staff. It's like if you could combine tempest+weaver you might have the perfect ele ideally. However weaver is DPS oriented with soso personal sustain. Tempest is support- but firebrand and boonshare classes like chrono and rev make it obsolete in zerg settings. I mean auras might be a thing in huge fights like zergs if they can get some relevant boons to go along with the buff given like resistance or quickness/alacrity etc. not saying those have to be the boons given- just an example.

[Nepster.4275]

I think most of the people who said ele is too OP were people who wanted to play other classes in raids too, but as i seen before the big nerfs happened the LFGs were full of people asking for Weaver specifically(talking about raid and T4). The thing that ele got nerfed is because people did not let other classes in raids. Thats a sad thing but not a class problem at all, it was a community problem. Now some months after the nerf we see Deadeye on the top of the benchmarks(Mostly) still very few people playing it. So from this i would say that people were enjoyig playing ele, i mean who does not want to see meteors showering on bosses? Devs are not baised towards elementalists they just dont know how it works, as others said it before me.They clearly took the high damage skills, nerfed them and tought they did a great job, after some hours it turned out they completely killed core and tempest builds using staff and well, some player´s fun. I was enjoying ele, and i still do, I even got along with using sword now if i want DPS, but really, forcing a light armor/low health pool class into meele range is kind of dumb, isnt it? I mean DE has riffle with 1500 range, engi has granades and riffle+photon 4.So basically with ele if you want to keep safe distance you give up your damage so you can survive, if you go meele you will most likely die if the druid is doing something else and not healing the group.

So all i wanted to say, the Dev team were not thinking what they were doing they wanted to nerf it, they did it. This is not the first occasion this happening they did the same to mirage back at the time when it was confusion based. They wanted to nerf confusion in PvP they did it. Not thinking about that MAYBE it could affect the PvE mirage builds too, took them 2-3 days while they figured out what to do to fix it. I think with ele there is a longer time for this since i think there are more devs playing mesmer than ele, i mean this is obvious

Not saying anything about people leaving after the nerfs enjoying the class while doing very good damage is the core of enjoying the game(PVE aspect), doing very good damage but falling asleep on DE by rotating 5 buttons is taking a lot of the enjoyment