Episode 4: thread for spoilers and comments.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Given that I was right about Gandara and Jahai being episodes 3 and 4, I am going to assume this is where the last two maps of the LWS4 are going to be.

>

> There are even conveniently placed brand crystal walls in both Jahai Bluffs and the Suns Refuge that match up with where the old GW1 portals to Sunward Marches were, which would allow them to connect the maps like they did with Jahai Bluffs and Domain of Kourna.

>

> Though I will admit its possible the Sunward Marches might be the lower part of map 5, while the upper part is in the previously unexplored area between the Desolation and Sunward Marches. I just think it would be very odd that they would bring Koss out of his cave(ironically to put him in another cave in the Suns Refuge) and then not have some small character moment where he goes to and has to defend Ronjok.

>

> Narrative wise, Ep5 is obviously going to be us tracking Kralkatorrik, finding Aurene, and whatever Zafirah is going to be useful for. And then Episode 6 is OFC the big finale where we get all our Elonian pals, the Pact, and Aurene to confront Kralkatorrik once and for all.

> 

>

 

After that we found out that Kralk can open the rifts wherever he wants, I doubt it's that obvious the 6th map will be in this crystal palace.

 

I would rather have a fight, not on Tyria, but in the Mists or somewhere else.

 

What I noticed is that:

 

# Aurene's Vision

 

Aurene's vision showed that Aurene will die no matter what Tyrian forces we will use- no matter how brainy strategy we will use- fleet, cannon etc etc, its all meaningless. Aurene and we die anyway. So we need something much stronger than Tyrian forces. We will never defeat Kralkatorrik only as Dragon's Watch+Aurene+the Pact- its not Mordremoth!

 

We must now find somebody that powerful, that holds the Mists magic, that can control the Death, Ice, Illusion, Earth, Fire magic so it can BALANCE the powers, so Aurene can fulfill the prophecy!!!

 

Do you know whom I mean? Yes, the Gods!

 

Now when Kralkatorrik denied that the Elder Dragons are grounded on Tyria, we can lure Kralk out of Tyria!

 

# The Mushrooms from Another World

 

When I heard "another world", I thought- aren't Gods searching for a new garden right now? What if... they are from the same place the Gods are right now...

 

# The Final Battle in the Mists

 

With the Gods and the Forgotten' help we will destroy Kralkatorrik, not on Tyria, perhaps not even in the Mists, maybe in a different planet???

 

 

 

The whole point of Aurene's vision was that **WE CANNOT DEFEAT KRALKATORRIK ON OUR OWN**! It's time for all the forces of Tyria, the Mists and the universe to unite against Kralkatorrik!

 

 

 

[derd.6413]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > Given that I was right about Gandara and Jahai being episodes 3 and 4, I am going to assume this is where the last two maps of the LWS4 are going to be.

> >

> > There are even conveniently placed brand crystal walls in both Jahai Bluffs and the Suns Refuge that match up with where the old GW1 portals to Sunward Marches were, which would allow them to connect the maps like they did with Jahai Bluffs and Domain of Kourna.

> >

> > Though I will admit its possible the Sunward Marches might be the lower part of map 5, while the upper part is in the previously unexplored area between the Desolation and Sunward Marches. I just think it would be very odd that they would bring Koss out of his cave(ironically to put him in another cave in the Suns Refuge) and then not have some small character moment where he goes to and has to defend Ronjok.

> >

> > Narrative wise, Ep5 is obviously going to be us tracking Kralkatorrik, finding Aurene, and whatever Zafirah is going to be useful for. And then Episode 6 is OFC the big finale where we get all our Elonian pals, the Pact, and Aurene to confront Kralkatorrik once and for all.

> > 

> >

>

> After that we found out that Kralk can open the rifts wherever he wants, I doubt it's that obvious the 6th map will be in this crystal palace.

>

> I would rather have a fight, not on Tyria, but in the Mists or somewhere else.

>

> What I noticed is that:

>

> # Aurene's Vision

>

> Aurene's vision showed that Aurene will die no matter what Tyrian forces we will use- no matter how brainy strategy we will use- fleet, cannon etc etc, its all meaningless. Aurene and we die anyway. So we need something much stronger than Tyrian forces. We will never defeat Kralkatorrik only as Dragon's Watch+Aurene+the Pact- its not Mordremoth!

>

> We must now find somebody that powerful, that holds the Mists magic, that can control the Death, Ice, Illusion, Earth, Fire magic so it can BALANCE the powers, so Aurene can fulfill the prophecy!!!

>

> Do you know whom I mean? Yes, the Gods!

>

> Now when Kralkatorrik denied that the Elder Dragons are grounded on Tyria, we can lure Kralk out of Tyria!

>

> # The Mushrooms from Another World

>

> When I heard "another world", I thought- aren't Gods searching for a new garden right now? What if... they are from the same place the Gods are right now...

>

> # The Final Battle in the Mists

>

> With the Gods and the Forgotten' help we will destroy Kralkatorrik, not on Tyria, perhaps not even in the Mists, maybe in a different planet???

>

>

>

> The whole point of Aurene's vision was that **WE CANNOT DEFEAT KRALKATORRIK ON OUR OWN**! It's time for all the forces of Tyria, the Mists and the universe to unite against Kralkatorrik!

>

>

>

 

can we keep the gods out of the story for a while and do something actually interesting rather then pandering to GW1 nostalgia

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Sorry but the Gods aren’t just GW1 nostalgia, they’re an intrinsic part of the universe and not just exclusive to one game in the franchise. And also one of the most interesting parts of said universe.

 

The Gods have been out of the story for a while, from the start of GW2 infact. And now they’ve been increasingly involved and referenced since the start of Path of Fire, for obvious reasons.

 

Or did you miss Kormir, Lyssa references and the Underworld raid?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Fenom.9457" said:

> More likely E5 being the shoreline and having some water, about as far south as DoK map, some docks, some boat invasion events, more of Anet trying to improve water content. Then E6 being sunward marches and some desolation, and S5 will continue in Elona against kralkatorrik. I could easily see a whole extra season on it. Or, we could move on. Personally I think there are great options either way

It's unlikely Anet would do anything to try to improve water content this season given that none of our enemies are water based. It's also equally unlikely that season 5 will take place in Elona since there would be basically no room left for another season's worth of maps in Elona once S4 is done. Also, they wouldn't change seasons unless they are changing narrative direction, and this whole seasons has been leading up to us killing Kralktorik, so its a good bet Kralkatorrik is going to die this seasons. This means season 5 has a high chance of being like season 3 was, where we hop around central Tyria, dealing with various smaller problems so that we can

A. See how central Tyria has been doing since we left for Elona

B. Make sure central Tyria is in a stable state before we leave for the Depths to fight Primordus, or the Far Shiverpeaks to fight Jormag, or Cantha/somewhere else to fight Bubbles.

 

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> After that we found out that Kralk can open the rifts wherever he wants, I doubt it's that obvious the 6th map will be in this crystal palace.

>

> I would rather have a fight, not on Tyria, but in the Mists or somewhere else.

Like I've said twice already, the 6th map is not necessarily the map we fight him on, just where we go to reach the place to fight him. Linsey Murdock said she has a rule about placing the Living World story maps on the current in-game parchment, so there is unlikely to ever be a whole dedicated map in the Mists of w/e. Meaning the 6th map has to be somewhere on the map, and it makes sense for it to be there since the only other place is a part of the Desolation that has nothing in it.

[derd.6413]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> Sorry but the Gods aren’t just GW1 nostalgia, they’re an intrinsic part of the universe and not just exclusive to one game in the franchise. And also one of the most interesting parts of said universe.

 

we have diffrent opinions on what's interesting. from what we've seen of them so far they're the most boring characters in gw.

 

> The Gods have been out of the story for a while, from the start of GW2 infact. And now they’ve been increasingly involved and referenced since the start of Path of Fire, for obvious reasons.

>

> Or did you miss Kormir, Lyssa references and the Underworld raid?

 

i haven't but i kinda want them to slowly dissapear again but most defenatly i don't want a story to conclude with "and then the gods showed up and we won the day"

[ThatOddOne.4387]

"most boring characters in guild wars" I'm not even gonna respond to that.

 

And what would you prefer? Something entirely new being created for the specific purpose of winning against Kralkatorrik with little explanation or build-up or would you like something previously established to be the major factor for winning instead? Here's your answer: The better option in terms of storytelling is the second one and the Gods are it.

[derd.6413]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> "most boring characters in guild wars" I'm not even gonna respond to that.

>

> And what would you prefer? Something entirely new being created for the specific purpose of winning against Kralkatorrik with little explanation or build-up or would you like something previously established to be the major factor for winning instead? Here's your answer: The better option in terms of storytelling is the second one and the Gods are it.

 

no it isn't. better option is to look into that whole replacing thing the game banging on about and the established weakness of kralk and then using that intel to defeat kralk with hard work and proper strategy. it's alot better then "the human gods deus ex machina kralk to death"

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

I highly doubt the gods will be involved. While Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, the gods are likely so far away, near whatever world they are currently shaping, that it wont even register to them. Even if it did, they would likely just tell us its our problem, and we have all the gifts they could ever offer us to help defeat the Dragons, we just have to figure out how to use them, etc. etc. typical god hand-waving and weaseling out of any responsibility.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

... Yes, umh, you know that whole replacing thing? That requires Kralkatorrik gone and his power transferred. This just about shows the amount of creative thought you're giving to this: The Gods -are- the method by which replacement can happen, by transferring magic they have been shown to be able to handle (Via Balthazar) to Aurene. What I am suggesting and hoping for is not them directly fighting Kralkatorrik, but directly helping and being a direct factor to his defeat, but of course you lack reading comprehension to understand that. There is nothing deus ex machina about this as it's making use of ingame information that we already know and combining it for a result, and especially if there's an episode or two dedicated to finding the Gods it doesn't come out of nowhere like any other possible solution to Kralkatorrik would at this point.

 

And one of the primary reasons for the Gods not being involved in fighting the Elder Dragons is the damage it'll do to Tyria, if Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, that removes the primary limitation to the Gods' involvement. There is no "Hand-waving" involved, all those previous reasons are perfectly legitimate because of one constant factor: Tyria. All the scenarios that the Gods might have been a big help were taking place on Tyria where they can't use their powers in a noticeably offensive manner without causing a second Crystal Desert. They neither weasel out of responsibility or hand-wave at any point in the story if you actually apply some critical thought to their actions.

[derd.6413]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> ... Yes, umh, you know that whole replacing thing? That requires Kralkatorrik gone and his power transferred. This just about shows the amount of creative thought you're giving to this: The Gods -are- the method by which replacement can happen, by transferring magic they have been shown to be able to handle (Via Balthazar) to Aurene. What I am suggesting and hoping for is not them directly fighting Kralkatorrik, but directly helping and being a direct factor to his defeat, but of course you lack reading comprehension to understand that.

>

> And one of the primary reasons for the Gods not being involved in fighting the Elder Dragons is the damage it'll do to Tyria, if Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, that removes one the primary limitations to the Gods' involvement. There is no "Hand-waving" involved, all those previous reasons are perfectly legitimate because of one constant factor: All the scenarios that the Gods might have been a big help were taking place on Tyria where they can't use their powers in a noticeably offensive manner without causing a second Crystal Desert. They neither weasel out of responsibility or hand-wave at any point in the story if you actually apply some critical thought to their actions.

 

we could delve into the ruins of the brotherhood of the dragon, the forgotten or ancient zepherite temples to look for ancient tomes and scriptures which speaks of rituals whoms requirements or ingridients will take us on a quest around tyria which will allow us to not only explore tyria and the many loose plot threads but also the mysteries of the EDs themself.

 

or the gods show up and deus ex machina the problem away cuz that's more interesting for some reason.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> ... Yes, umh, you know that whole replacing thing? That requires Kralkatorrik gone and his power transferred. This just about shows the amount of creative thought you're giving to this: The Gods -are- the method by which replacement can happen, by transferring magic they have been shown to be able to handle (Via Balthazar) to Aurene.

The whole replacement thing will happen whit Aurene just taking in Kralkatorrik's magic, and thus reaching the magical threshold she needs to become part of the All.

 

I really think people are reading too much into this replacement thing.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

You're not quite understanding what a deus ex machina is, are you? You're repeating the term because you think it's an argument when it's not.

 

EDIT: Yes, I know that, thank you. But that still requires Kralkatorrik to be beaten which as we have literally JUST seen is IMPOSSIBLE from all of Aurene's visions. Another factor is required that wasn't present in those visions and that was the Gods. It could be anything else that can be newly created for that purpose, yes, but the Gods make the most sense for the story as it is currently being told. People's dislike of the Gods, no matter how justified they think they are, does not effect this simple storytelling fact.

[derd.6413]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> You're not quite understanding what a deus ex machina is, are you? You're repeating the term because you think it's an argument when it's not.

 

deus ex machina: Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and seemingly unlikely occurrence, typically so much as to seem contrived.

 

the gods returning out of nowhere with the contrived excuse "kralk is in the mists" and solving all our issues relating to kralk's defeat fits perfectly with the defenition of deus ex machina.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

But it would not be out of nowhere or contrived due to the repeated, continued references to them, their abilities and their magic and especially if there is an episode or two dedicated to finding them. It's a Chekhov's Gun in action, not a Deus Ex Machina.

 

It does not fit into the definition in the way you're thinking at all.

[derd.6413]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > ... Yes, umh, you know that whole replacing thing? That requires Kralkatorrik gone and his power transferred. This just about shows the amount of creative thought you're giving to this: The Gods -are- the method by which replacement can happen, by transferring magic they have been shown to be able to handle (Via Balthazar) to Aurene.

> The whole replacement thing will happen whit Aurene just taking in Kralkatorrik's magic, and thus reaching the magical threshold she needs to become part of the All.

>

> I really think people are reading too much into this replacement thing.

 

that's not entirely true. there is another factor involved or else we would have had zhaitan 2 and mordremoth 2 at this point.

[derd.6413]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> But it would not be out of nowhere or contrived due to the repeated, continued references to them, their abilities and their magic and especially if there is an episode or two dedicated to finding them. It's a Chekhov's Gun in action, not a Deus Ex Machina.

>

> It does not fit into the definition in the way you're thinking at all.

 

besides all the refrences that they *left* as in *are gone* as in *not here* and lyssa being shady with the balth situation: what refrences?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> that's not entirely true. there is another factor involved or else we would have had zhaitan 2 and mordremoth 2 at this point.

Not really. Much like how godlness is a certain power, and not a physical attribute, the dragon's "Elder Dragon-ness" is also likely a certain kind of power. That power was absorbed among the other Elder Dragons after they died, while smaller bits of their magic flowed into champions like Tequatil.

 

There wouldn't be another Elder Dragon since the other EDs took that power.

 

[ThatOddOne.4387]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > But it would not be out of nowhere or contrived due to the repeated, continued references to them, their abilities and their magic and especially if there is an episode or two dedicated to finding them. It's a Chekhov's Gun in action, not a Deus Ex Machina.

> >

> > It does not fit into the definition in the way you're thinking at all.

>

> besides all the refrences that they *left* as in *are gone* as in *not here* and lyssa being shady with the balth situation: what refrences?

 

The latter alone is enough to qualify. But alright: Kormir literally appearing, the Underworld, Desmina and Dhuum, literally whatever Balthazar says in the story regarding his ex-fellows, the Garden of the Gods collection, Taimi's as of yet unfinished statement about the Exalted and the Gods, whether it's "The Exalted say the Gods-" or not, that's still information that's yet to be explained.

 

Whether you like it or not, the Gods as a story element are still very much there and active and by most narrative laws they are expected to do something.

[derd.6413]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > that's not entirely true. there is another factor involved or else we would have had zhaitan 2 and mordremoth 2 at this point.

> Not really. Much like how godlness is a certain power, and not a physical attribute, the dragon's "Elder Dragon-ness" is also likely a certain kind of power. That power was absorbed among the other Elder Dragons after they died, while smaller bits of their magic flowed into champions like Tequatil.

>

> There wouldn't be another Elder Dragon since the other EDs took that power.

>

 

might be true but the factor doesn't have to do with a trait of being an ED but rather a specific method to becomming one (maybe it is maybe it isn't)

 

but there's a requirement that needs to be met or else why didn't one/some of zhaitan's minions just take all his power before the other ED could claim it. why didn't the pale tree absorb most of mordremoth's magic to become ED of plants.

[Imba.9451]

I actually agree with derd.

As much as I like the gods, them coming along and magically nuking Kralk into Oblivion is poor storytelling. (Although, with a proper cutscene, it would be really nice to see...)

Other options to defeat Kralk are much more interesting, and they put the focus on the player character. Of course, you could nerf the gods and require them to need the PC to do _something_ so they can obliterate Kralk, but that only takes away from their power, as well from Kormirs encouragement to stand on their own two feet. It just doesn't fit the narrative right now.

 

I won't get tired of asking for the Mursaat to come back. There have to be some dormant Mursaat left to join in the fight - their knowledge and power would help greatly in the upcoming battle, it would reintroduce the best race of the lore to the game, and give them a chance for redemption. Also, an all-out war between Dragons watch, their supporter and the Mursaat against Kralk would make me nerdy heart jump out of my chest in an instant.

[derd.6413]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > But it would not be out of nowhere or contrived due to the repeated, continued references to them, their abilities and their magic and especially if there is an episode or two dedicated to finding them. It's a Chekhov's Gun in action, not a Deus Ex Machina.

> > >

> > > It does not fit into the definition in the way you're thinking at all.

> >

> > besides all the refrences that they *left* as in *are gone* as in *not here* and lyssa being shady with the balth situation: what refrences?

>

> The latter alone is enough to qualify.

 

 

 

>But alright: Kormir literally appearing,

 

where she said all the gods *left* and she's leaving

 

> the Underworld, Desmina and Dhuum,

 

where once again they refrenced grenth is gone

 

> literally whatever Balthazar says in the story,

 

balth refrenced they betrayed him (because they wanted to leave instead of fight) and balt's dead

 

> the Garden of the Gods,

 

i'll quote the second page: And make no mistake: the gods have withdrawn. Prayers go unanswered, Ascension fails. But do not despair, or rage: our gods still love us, and it is that love that drove them to leave.

 

and was clearly written ages ago

 

>Taimi's as of yet unfinished statement about the Exalted and the Gods, whether it's "The Exalted say the Gods" or not, that's still information that's yet to be explained.

 

could be anything to do with the gods in pof because of the whole balt situation or their cooperation with the exalted.

 

all of these are refrences to how the gods left and one is so vague it could literally be refrencing that the gods are each a pack of rabbid house cats in a trechcoat.

 

and refrences from after they left would be more apreciated

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> might be true but the factor doesn't have to do with a trait of being an ED but rather a specific method to becomming one (maybe it is maybe it isn't)

>

> but there's a requirement that needs to be met or else why didn't one/some of zhaitan's minions just take all his power before the other ED could claim it. why didn't the pale tree absorb most of mordremoth's magic to become ED of plants.

Its stated in one of the earlier Living World seasons that dragon magic naturally flows to other dragons. Zhaitan's minions didn't take his magic because it didn't flow to them, it flowed to the other Elder Dragons primarily, and dragon champions like Tequatl as a secondary.

 

The Pale Tree wouldn't have taken in Mordremoth's magic because she isn't a dragon, not to mention her connection to Mordremoth being severed which is why she and the Sylvari were free in the first place.

[derd.6413]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > might be true but the factor doesn't have to do with a trait of being an ED but rather a specific method to becomming one (maybe it is maybe it isn't)

> >

> > but there's a requirement that needs to be met or else why didn't one/some of zhaitan's minions just take all his power before the other ED could claim it. why didn't the pale tree absorb most of mordremoth's magic to become ED of plants.

> Its stated in one of the earlier Living World seasons that dragon magic naturally flows to other dragons. Zhaitan's minions didn't take his magic because it didn't flow to them, it flowed to the other Elder Dragons primarily, and dragon champions like Tequatl as a secondary.

 

and how would we prevent this from happening again? aurene isn't an ED, she's a second generation ED so first generation branded would probably take more claim if we do the same as last time

 

> The Pale Tree wouldn't have taken in Mordremoth's magic because she isn't a dragon,

 

i find that a bit arbitrary cause this seems more based on her shape then anything else.

 

>not to mention her connection to Mordremoth being severed which is why she and the Sylvari were free in the first place.

 

same for aurene

 

 

[lakdav.3694]

There is just so many ways and so many points in the lore that the story can touch now that the Mists are involved.

Aetherblades and Mai Trin

Realms of the Gods other than the Underworld, the Rift

The mursaat refuge where they weathered the last Dragonrise in the Mists

Asura Arcane Council - With their possible ultimate plan to pull a mursaat move and hide in the Mists being uprooted, would they do something crazy?

The Next World that we get a glimpse of in ??? - is that where the gods went, do worlds go in a sequence? Why do they reference it always as the "Next" world, and not just another world?

Fractals of the Mists - Timeloops Dr. Strange style. The Vizier's Tower in Jahai is practically a Fractal of the Mists dropped into Tyria by accident. The Ancestor Tree is has temporal shifts through history. Could Kralkatorrik be imprisoned in a fractal timeloop by any chance?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> and how would we prevent this from happening again? aurene isn't an ED, she's a second generation ED so first generation branded would probably take more claim if we do the same as last time

Aurene is a dragon, and a natural dragon at that(compared to a raised dragon like the Claw of Jormag), and is literally Kralkatorrik's own blood, which is why she is a useful weapon in the first place. It would flow to her more then anyone except possible Glint if Glint was still alive.