Why People Avoid WvW

[SkyShroud.2865]

The top two upvote comments are rewards.

The 3rd upvote comments is "I never know what I'm meant to be doing, and I don't have enough interest in it to do some research."

I believe the keywords are not the first part of the sentence but rather the second part. People simply have no interest in doing it.

 

Fifth upvote comment is "It's boring"

6th is "This mode is one big time gate. I don't like time gates, so I play other things." which means reward.

7th is "While running around in a huge zerg is fun, reward tracks aren't." which again rewards.

8th is "Mainly cause I don't find a commander when I enter." which is related to population imbalance issue which I mentioned many months ago.

9th upvote is a bit more detailed which include rewards, optimizations, prefer to play with elite players, lack goals...

10th upvote again is population imbalance

11th upvote is summarize to I don't see the point aka boring/no goals

 

In summary, most people playing gw2 are just pvers, not pvxers or pvpers. Rather fight monsters than humans. Those that complain lack of goals are people who prefer open world pvp than this pvp battelfield. I am sure the posts will be useful for newbies that are interested but definitely not gonna be search upon by most people that voted in reddit.

[Pelto.9364]

Here is the guide for WvW: Follow and watch players who seem to know what to do. Help them, and you will learn.

[coro.3176]

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> The top two upvote comments are rewards.

> The 3rd upvote comments is "I never know what I'm meant to be doing, and I don't have enough interest in it to do some research."

> I believe the keywords are not the first part of the sentence but rather the second part. People simply have no interest in doing it.

>

> Fifth upvote comment is "It's boring"

> 6th is "This mode is one big time gate. I don't like time gates, so I play other things." which means reward.

> 7th is "While running around in a huge zerg is fun, reward tracks aren't." which again rewards.

> 8th is "Mainly cause I don't find a commander when I enter." which is related to population imbalance issue which I mentioned many months ago.

> 9th upvote is a bit more detailed which include rewards, optimizations, prefer to play with elite players, lack goals...

> 10th upvote again is population imbalance

> 11th upvote is summarize to I don't see the point aka boring/no goals

>

> In summary, most people playing gw2 are just pvers, not pvxers or pvpers. Rather fight monsters than humans. Those that complain lack of goals are people who prefer open world pvp than this pvp battelfield. I am sure the posts will be useful for newbies that are interested but definitely not gonna be search upon by most people that voted in reddit.

 

I will never understand people's need to acquire more meaningless currency, or to fill their bags with nearly-worthless trash.

 

The opportunity to test your skill against other real people **is the reward**. Winning that 1v2 ambush feels great. Capturing that keep seconds before the enemy blob can reach it, then pushing out to wipe them feels great.

 

but sitting around in spawn getting pips so that you can get some chests full of strongboxes full of bags full of boxes full of pouches full of blues and greens full of trash sigils and worthless crafting mats? I'm not surprised people don't like that.

 

[Myrdreth.6829]

> @"Sviel.7493" said:

> On the other hand, WvW players usually just say to follow a tag. The newbs dutifully follow a tag (if one exists) and are chastised for their build/class choices and total lack of large combat instincts. If this doesn't cause them to quit, they go on to stomp/get stomped in zerg battles and eventually leave without much idea of what just happened. If they don't leave the game mode completely, they still have no clue what to do if there is no tag and lack the confidence to take any sort of initiative.

>

> Following a tag is nice, but it's not a great first step. It would be better for everyone involved if players first had a reason to want to win, then got on tag. They would be more motivated to improve. Right now, the players who fight for the sake of fights tend to adjust well, join a fighting guild, then lament that WvW isn't just all zerg fights all the time. Players who aren't super stoked about large scale combat tend to abandon the game mode entirely.

 

That's me in a nutshell. I am not really sure what to do in WvW. So I always try to find a squad that I can follow. Finding one that isn't already full or whatever is difficult sometimes.

 

I prefer PvE, but sometimes I need to do WvW for the badges. And now, I need the gift of battle. It's overwhelming for me to think about the gift of battle. How long will that take a noob like me? :/ I wish I would understand WvW a little bit better...maybe then it would be actually fun?

 

The only things I think I 'understand': run after the commander and fight the enemy players and NPCs. Stand in the blue circle to take the place over. Take supplies and help build things that the others want to be build. Don't die or else it will be a pain in the ass to find your squad again xD Oh, and NEVER pull any levers! People want to lynch you if you pull that lever, no matter how curious you are! O_O I made that mistake once and I am still ashamed and really sorry for that °A° Seems like that lever was really important...

 

[Sviel.7493]

@"SkyShroud.2865"

To be fair, prior to joining WvW, I was also 'just a PvEer.' And if we want the game mode to flourish, it has to be able to draw a decent subset of PvE players.

 

Besides, while the rewards may be why they initially come to WvW, some may stay or get interested if the game mode is actually fun/engaging/sensible. I came to WvW because I was a lvl ~30 noob and couldn't figure out how to easily do any of the other dailies. I stayed because there was a lot going on and I wanted to find a way to be helpful. It helped that I have a very high tolerance for arcane and poorly explained game systems--as a kid, I read encyclopedias rather than comics. I also had many helpful people along the way.

 

If we can smooth out that PvE -> WvW transition, we'll see far more new blood and, from that, new veterans will eventually emerge.

 

@"Myrdreth.6829"

I'm actually _really_ disappointed that you pulled that lever...

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'd like to throw the "monotonous" hat into the ring. Player retention is a bit of an issue, because for the most part it is all the same stuff. Even if you know what to do, you'll soon learn there isn't much to do:

 

Kill lookouts

Take Camps

Build Siege

Take Tower

Hope a big enough group comes together to take stonemist or a keep

 

Sometimes you'll get good ship to ship battles, but mostly it is superior numbers crushing a smaller group. In my current tier, the borderlands are all but abandoned, and the only place any fighting occurs is in EBG. Now, this is fine if you only do this for a week, but this isn't sustainable for years at a time.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Sviel.7493" said:

> @"SkyShroud.2865"

> To be fair, prior to joining WvW, I was also 'just a PvEer.' And if we want the game mode to flourish, it has to be able to draw a decent subset of PvE players.

>

> Besides, while the rewards may be why they initially come to WvW, some may stay or get interested if the game mode is actually fun/engaging/sensible. I came to WvW because I was a lvl ~30 noob and couldn't figure out how to easily do any of the other dailies. I stayed because there was a lot going on and I wanted to find a way to be helpful. It helped that I have a very high tolerance for arcane and poorly explained game systems--as a kid, I read encyclopedias rather than comics. I also had many helpful people along the way.

>

> If we can smooth out that PvE -> WvW transition, we'll see far more new blood and, from that, new veterans will eventually emerge.

>

 

Well, you talking to a large PvX guild's leader here. We are always drawing in pve players to play wvw but one must not forget that wvw is dominated by people who just want to win and get drunk with that ego. Compare to the distant past, pvx guilds in wvw is now a rare breed, in a way, that explains why the decline of wvw since no more guilds trying to bring in new players, let alone guide new players. Bringing in players while combating the loss of players from other factors is just a losing battle. From the timeline given by the top wvw guilds of the past, it takes an average 6 months to train newbies to become vet, no wvw guilds doing that now, only pvx guilds doing it. The culture shifted much since years.

[Fipmip.7219]

When I joined WvW a year or so ago my first take was "where are the fights? Where's the battle at? this is the gamemode with the big battles right? lets have some fun, where is it!?" cue running for about half an hour until I was able to figure out what WvW was actually like for casuals: run after the commander tag for dat max WXP and occasionally stare at the enemy zerg while the guys with 1.314x10^200 range AOEs throw out as many sexy epeen numbers as they can while backpedalling wildly.

 

Meanwhile I can jump into planetside 2, god rest its soul, and get sweet fights whenever I damn well please. and that game has a fraction of the population of GW2. I cant for the life of me figure out why GW2 wont just embrace the fact it's for casuals and make WvW into a funhouse, while removing all this notion of 'muh backcapping' and 'muh small scale strats.' The goal of WvW should be lighting a fire under a big battle and stoking it for as long as possible. That means more respawn points, deployable respawn points in the form of siege camps you can bring with you, respawning at places under seige, comeback mechanics, locking off areas at low pop times, anything and everything to simply get the ball rolling so people can jump in, see where the fun is and start WvWing.

[Sviel.7493]

@"SkyShroud.2865"

Come to think of it, I never considered how PvX guilds could help players adjust. While I still hope to see a tutorial, perhaps it would also be worthwhile to give some guild bonuses based on the WvW performance of the guild's alliance...when that comes out.

 

I was lucky enough to be 'trained' by a veteran Pugmander on our server. Perhaps I ought to give him more credit.

[Batel.9206]

The only part of WvW that I'd want to get into is...a pet for my ranger. There's one pet, the[ Juvenile Wolf](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juvenile_Wolf " Juvenile Wolf"), that is only found in a WvW map. If I could, I'd go into WvW, run to the pet, tame it, then immediately exit WvW mode. Goal achieved, nothing more to do here, let more competent people have their fun.

 

But frankly, I'm too nervous to do even that. From what I can gather, every space in WvW is precious. People wait in queues to get in. More people playing = more people who are expected to know exactly what to do, exactly where to go, and exactly what builds/gear are the best. If I deviate from those requirements, I can expect the entire short run to the pet to be filled with people either continually murderizing me or hurling abuse in chat. (Am I wrong about those assumptions...? It can't be *that* bad, can it?)

 

Besides that, if every space a player fills is precious, I don't want to accidentally lock someone else - someone far more competent and experienced than I - out of the game mode for even a few minutes. It's unfair to them (and to their team) that they should have to wait while I get a pet for nothing more than aesthetic/RP appeal. And on top of everything else...WvW looks *ridiculously* complicated. Is there a specific build I need? Gear? Rotation? Where to go, what to do when I get there? These maps are huge! What's this about following a Commander tag? Fighting in large-scale groups (unless I play on the lowest settings possible, my computer would throw a fit if I tried that, and I'd be dead in two seconds flat while I'm frozen and unable to move/react)? Gah. I'd rather stick with story-mode/open world PVE and the occasional match of unranked PVP.

 

So, in short: the short bit of time I'd need isn't worth it and isn't fair to other players, and WvW seems way too complicated for me, a person who loves this game but is still *very* bad at it, to dip my toes in. And that is why I avoid WvW. /bow

[Sviel.7493]

@"Batel.9206"

 

The only time space is at a premium is late on Friday night. Even then, no one is going to to be too upset about one person grabbing a pet in a few minutes. I can almost guarantee that no one will notice at all. But, depending on your server matchup, you may get ganked. It depends on where the Juvenile Wolf is and how far you have to run and how close you come to objectives.

 

WvW is technically complicated, but it is pretty rare that any server is running at maximum players. That means that even if you join without a clue of what to do, you'll still end up being more helpful than no-one at all. Just don't pull any levers (they are server-wide skills with server wide CDs) and only get supply from camps instead of places with walls (at least starting out). Feel free to ask anything in /m chat, though try to keep /t chat clear as it broadcasts over all 4 maps. I would not recommend following a commander right off as they tend to be the ragiest folks around (with decent reason). Finally, there are plenty of things you can do without running in a large group and without tons of combat prowess that will have a profound effect on your team's chances of victory. Scouting, repairing, maintaining camps/shrines/ruins and counter-siege are all among them. If you want to know more, ask in /m or /t chat for a scout that you can shadow. We tend to be pretty chill. We have to be, since we routinely see hours of work destroyed in minutes Q_Q

[Klipso.8653]

If a player doesn't like PvP they won't go to WvW regardless of how many tutorials you give them

[X T D.6458]

I have no interest in instanced content like dungeons, raids, fractals so I dont bother learning about them. A lot of people either have no interest in multiplayer/pvp content because of poor experiences in other games. Misconceptions and misunderstandings also play a big role, this is different from not knowing. If you already have a negative view of a gamemode, you wont have incentive to engage in it, learn it, and improve. Some people also cant handle the physical impact of competitive gameplay, adrenaline can have different impacts on people. Some people thrive on it, others not so much.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Sviel.7493" said:

> @"SkyShroud.2865"

> Come to think of it, I never considered how PvX guilds could help players adjust. While I still hope to see a tutorial, perhaps it would also be worthwhile to give some guild bonuses based on the WvW performance of the guild's alliance...when that comes out.

>

> I was lucky enough to be 'trained' by a veteran Pugmander on our server. Perhaps I ought to give him more credit.

 

Well, nowadays pvx guilds are just pve guilds in disguise. There were a lot more legit pvx guilds back then. Most vets nowadays just stack server, all just to avoid noobs. There isn't a lot of pugmanders that interested to teach newbies nowadays, it just isn't rewarding for them to do so, not tangible rewards but non-tangible ones. I mean, why would anyone wan to train pugs if you know they just gonna bandwagon to win.

[Myrdreth.6829]

Update, why I like to avoid wvw: The community in wvw is rude as hell. Tried to play it today and the mapchat is so unfriendly...I know why I prefer PvE, the community there is so much nicer!

[Grim West.3194]

> @"Myrdreth.6829" said:

> Update, why I like to avoid wvw: The community in wvw is rude as hell. Tried to play it today and the mapchat is so unfriendly...I know why I prefer PvE, the community there is so much nicer!

 

Aye. Some servers are worse than others but in general there are a lot of broken people talking in WvW chat.

 

Best to just to ignore them. They aren't saying anything useful. Remember you pay for the game just as they did. You have every right to be there and if they don't like it they can leave.

 

WvW isn't a great game mode, but it can be a lot of fun at times. Like most things though, it takes practice to get good.

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @"Grim West.3194" said:

> > @"Myrdreth.6829" said:

> > Update, why I like to avoid wvw: The community in wvw is rude as hell. Tried to play it today and the mapchat is so unfriendly...I know why I prefer PvE, the community there is so much nicer!

>

> Aye. Some servers are worse than others but in general there are a lot of broken people talking in WvW chat.

>

> Best to just to ignore them. They aren't saying anything useful. Remember you pay for the game just as they did. You have every right to be there and if they don't like it they can leave.

>

> WvW isn't a great game mode, but it can be a lot of fun at times. Like most things though, it takes practice to get good.

 

I have /team off for almost a year now. I put it back on this last relink. Lasted 30 seconds before it went right back off.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I used to love wvw, but I got tired of running around in zerg for 1 fight every 30min-1hr. I don't want to pvgate. I don't want to flip camps or run supply to cata some dumb tower. I just want fights. Currently pvp is better at providing them. Definitely don't want to face perma stealth deadeyes, condi mirages, or 1 shot soulbeasts in broken pve gear. This games balance is too bad for that.

[Sviel.7493]

I think WvW is distinct from PvP even though it involves PvP. In sPvP, for instance, your value as a player is determined chiefly by your skill in battle. In WvW, you can be a huge asset to your server even with poor battle capability. Obviously, being able to fight well is always a plus, but there are many more dimensions to excel in. For that same reason, people who only want to PvP will probably never be completely satisfied in WvW.

 

Also for that reason, I don't think that WvW is a non-starter for players who dislike PvP.

 

@"Myrdreth.6829"

Can I ask what server you're on? Not that it will help at all...I'm just curious.

 

 

[Myrdreth.6829]

Yeah, thanks, I will ignore them now too. :<

[sitarskee.5738]

I try very hard not to avoid WvW since I really like the concept of it, my only problem is crybaby commanders/lieutenants who kick you from squads/insult you on map chat for running a specific class that doesn't meet "meta". I understand that for the team to win a teamfight it's best to run only firebrands and scourges but come on... I know I can still follow the squad but the feeling of being excluded out of the group isn't welcoming.

 

Of course I mean no offense to the commanders, in fact I've also met many nice ones and more helpful to new people. It certainly isn't easy to lead a big group of people from which 60% doesn't have any idea what they're doing.

[Myrdreth.6829]

> @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> I try very hard not to avoid WvW since I really like the concept of it, my only problem is crybaby commanders/lieutenants who kick you from squads/insult you on map chat for running a specific class that doesn't meet "meta". I understand that for the team to win a teamfight it's best to run only firebrands and scourges but come on... I know I can still follow the squad but the feeling of being excluded out of the group isn't welcoming.

>

> Of course I mean no offense to the commanders, in fact I've also met many nice ones and more helpful to new people. It certainly isn't easy to lead a big group of people from which 60% doesn't have any idea what they're doing.

 

That's exactly what happened to me. And then they insulted me and made fun about me reporting them to Anet (even though I didn't report anybody and just walked away?) xD

[Dami.5046]

I'm sure someone looking on the forum for how wvw is , is met with let's say hardly the most friendly of threads. People has already touched on the meta/class issue as well. People want to play a game for fun and enjoyment, not talked down because they want to play a thief and meta builds wangles a finger and says 'you aint meta'

It's a shame people these days have to be like this.

 

[XenesisII.1540]

The game mode probably does need some sort of interactive basic instructions to tell players what's what and what they could do. I don't know how big of a book of instructions players are expecting though, because you go to a map like Silverwastes which has a couple similar mechanics to wvw and they're not told how to do everything. When they go into new fractals or raids they're not given instructions on everything, some things need to be left to be explored and figured out by the player, or wait for someone else to do it and watch the video of it I suppose.

 

The real tutorial probably comes from following a pug tag around, where you can experience a lot of what wvw has to offer, same with pve where players follow tags around maps for events, the problem is wvw is a much harsher place because you're competing against two other sides(sometimes three), plus wvw has been dying as well as the rotation of new/old pugmanders.

 

Rewards might be a problem for most of those players, but then again they play in pve for a reason (other than "exploration"), to chase that carrot stick of loot and they tend to go for the greatest source with the easiest effort to obtain, there's a reason why things like the istan silverwastes and frostgorge k-trains existed. First and foremost for wvw though, a player needs to enjoy pvp, if they don't they probably shouldn't be in there and should do pve instead for rewards. I'm not saying wvw shouldn't have decent rewards, but it's not the main reason to play wvw or spvp unlike pve.

 

The game mode isn't linear and I think this is something a lot of players would struggle with too, there aren't strict lanes for you to push, there aren't markers or breadcrumb clues showing you what to do next, you don't get to the end and fight the big baddie lord to get the phat loot, sometimes I think a lattice system would work to help with this. But it's a sandbox for you to do whatever whenever and rewards flow to you as you play, which is also nice having different options of game play. There's many things you can do in wvw but you have to actually put in some time, gain the experience of playing in order to learn it all, once you learn it becomes pretty easy.

 

If a player doesn't have a wvw guild for the most part they need beacons on maps for activity, I've thought one of the things they should add is another sword color to show fights between 10-15 players, like the orange swords would show 25+, and maybe red swords for 50+. Or maybe start adding some random mini events on the map of like capturing this enemy tower and gain 25% more karma and wxp, to motivate players to gather and attack without needing a commander to do so, the pve maps especially meta maps are littered with events to do without needing commanders. (Also the barrier to even have a tag is higher in wvw, as you need to buy it unlike pve which has a free one).

 

Maybe they could set eotm up with a short tutorial to go out to a camp and get some supply and explain what that does, then go over and activate siegerazor to go out and capture a tower, with them building the siege as usual, and explain the reason for all that to the player, that should be enough of a tutorial to get started. They had a short tutorial in spvp showing how to do finishers too.

 

Heck it would probably help just to pop up a quick tutorial screen (you know the same type used to sell expansions in game) when you first enter wvw to tell you the basics, instead of missing the tutorial npc right in front of you when you spawn in, and who apparently doesn't even exist on the desert map, his chalkboard icon should probably be replaced with a huge blinking pink icon that says [HEY NEWBIE TALK TO ME FIRST], maybe change the char model to something bigger. Btw the tutorial does show and explain the area, and gives some basic information for wvw but that part could be expanded and polished up a bit.

 

[Sviel.7493]

In the Silverwastes, players don't have to be told what to do because it's just a series of events that are like all the other events in the game. You run out into the staging area and immediately see that you need to escort supplies, rebuild a wall or fight some weeds. Later, you go underground and fight more weeds at the area marked on your map. Then you come back up and fight even more weeds at a different area marked on your map. No tutorial necessary because it's just a standard chaining event--complete with NPCs yelling constant instructions.

 

In WvW, you have no map markings besides team colors and the events are vague Wvw-specific things like 'Assault this thing' or 'Defend this thing.' But no where in the rest of a game has a player had to place their own siege and use supply to build it. Also, simply taking things isn't enough--without understanding upgrades, scoring, etc, there's no reason to care about gaining territory and certainly no reason to defend it. A k-train is constant action/rewards of varying quality. Defense is spikes of action after indefinite waiting and myriad false alarms...all with no personal loot drops. Obviously, people will choose the k-train because the value of defense is unknowable without understanding the larger game system.