Deadeye needs to be nerfed.

[DFny.9145]

Well, our only weakness is being cornered by mesmers.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"DFny.9145" said:

> Well, our only weakness is being cornered by mesmers.

 

how the fk would you get cornered, just dodge and walk away in stealth???

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> It seems most people are annoyed by a combination of Deadeye's ability to:

>

> * Permastealth

> * Deal high burst AND high dps (single target) from range

> * Remove revealed

> * "One-shot" you with a 1500 range unblockable attack

 

Most people who complain don't even understand how DE works. For example, you have to choose between permastealth and high burst(SA or DA).

 

> Sure, these things are oppressive against certain opponents. Some classes just completely lack the ability to tailor a build specifically to fight DE too. Does DE need to be nerfed? Sure, however, I think people are calling for the wrong nerfs.

 

And so are you. Read on for explanation.

>

> IMO, the appropriate nerfs would aim to limit stealth access granted by the DE elite spec. I'd venture that silent scope's stealth duration should be lowered from 3s to 1.5s, + have an icd added, and also change that only Shadow Meld's final charge can remove the Revealed debuff.

 

With the rework A-net doubled down on DE being a stealth heavy profession. You cannot play it to its max potential without jumping in and out of stealth. If you're not focused on charging and unleashing malicious stealth attacks, you're basicly playing a 2 traitline thief that lacks the gapcloser on steal.

Thats the very core mechanic of DE: stacking malice, stealthing, landing a stealth attack. Now how would you do that without the numerous sources of stealth DE has?

 

You don't take away what makes the spec unique. You don't take away shroud from necro, you don't take away adrenaline form warrior, you don't take away stealth from DE. Tinkering with cooldowns, damage modifiers, boon application... none of these would destroy the core of what the spec is supposed to be, but your suggested changes would.

 

> IMO, a deadeye should not be able to achieve permastealth without taking shadow arts AND shadow refuge as a utility. I'm not sure what total nerfs would be necessary to achieve this but I think a nerf to silent scope would be a good start.

 

I really dont understand how you could possibly think this. Core thief can permastealth WITHOUT Shadow Refuge, since release. We take this core thief kit, build on it with a stealth focused elite spec, and according to you we should arrive at something that has WORSE stealth access... How? Why?

 

Also about an ICD on Silent Scope: we already had that, for like a week after the DE rework. It was absolutely unplayable, the lack of on-demand stealth basicly removed the class form any serious competetive PvP. So they did away with it... and it's not coming back.

[Malediktus.9250]

deadeye is easily one of the worst things to ever happen to pvp in this game

it is a sin that they even let this class design leave the drawing board

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> It seems most people are annoyed by a combination of Deadeye's ability to:

>

> * Permastealth

> * Deal high burst AND high dps (single target) from range

> * Remove revealed

> * "One-shot" you with a 1500 range unblockable attack

>

> Sure, these things are oppressive against certain opponents. Some classes just completely lack the ability to tailor a build specifically to fight DE too. Does DE need to be nerfed? Sure, however, I think people are calling for the wrong nerfs.

>

> IMO, the appropriate nerfs would aim to limit stealth access granted by the DE elite spec. I'd venture that silent scope's stealth duration should be lowered from 3s to 1.5s, + have an icd added, and also change that only Shadow Meld's final charge can remove the Revealed debuff.

>

> IMO, a deadeye should not be able to achieve permastealth without taking shadow arts AND shadow refuge as a utility. I'm not sure what total nerfs would be necessary to achieve this but I think a nerf to silent scope would be a good start.

>

>

 

Deaths Judgment is not the issue. Rocks on the damn floor obstruct it

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > and in PvE it's highly nerved to the ground and needs to get back like it was at deadeye's launch.

> >

> > It's one of the top single target DPS classes in PvE though.

>

> also the top immobile and lack lusting class in PvE, but let's ignore that.

 

This is literal nonsense. Dagger+Dagger deadeye is grossly overpowered in PvE right now being unambiguously the best power DPS build. It's also braindead easy and perfectly mobile. Rifle has it's niches on a few bosses and strats too.

 

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > It seems most people are annoyed by a combination of Deadeye's ability to:

> >

> > * Permastealth

> > * Deal high burst AND high dps (single target) from range

> > * Remove revealed

> > * "One-shot" you with a 1500 range unblockable attack

>

> Most people who complain don't even understand how DE works. For example, you have to choose between permastealth and high burst(SA or DA).

Choosing between 10k crits with permastealth or 16-20k crits with only an overabundance of stealth is not exactly a difficult choice between stealth or burst.

 

@"Malediktus.9250" said:

> deadeye is easily one of the worst things to ever happen to pvp in this game

> it is a sin that they even let this class design leave the drawing board

 

It's interesting. In a nonshooter like GW2, a class like Deadeye is going to really struggle balance wise between either being absurdly overpowered or absolutely useless. It's really hard to find that line where it's relatively balanced.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > It seems most people are annoyed by a combination of Deadeye's ability to:

> >

> > * Permastealth

> > * Deal high burst AND high dps (single target) from range

> > * Remove revealed

> > * "One-shot" you with a 1500 range unblockable attack

>

> Most people who complain don't even understand how DE works. For example, you have to choose between permastealth and high burst(SA or DA).

>

> > Sure, these things are oppressive against certain opponents. Some classes just completely lack the ability to tailor a build specifically to fight DE too. Does DE need to be nerfed? Sure, however, I think people are calling for the wrong nerfs.

>

> And so are you. Read on for explanation.

> >

> > IMO, the appropriate nerfs would aim to limit stealth access granted by the DE elite spec. I'd venture that silent scope's stealth duration should be lowered from 3s to 1.5s, + have an icd added, and also change that only Shadow Meld's final charge can remove the Revealed debuff.

>

> With the rework A-net doubled down on DE being a stealth heavy profession. You cannot play it to its max potential without jumping in and out of stealth. If you're not focused on charging and unleashing malicious stealth attacks, you're basicly playing a 2 traitline thief that lacks the gapcloser on steal.

> Thats the very core mechanic of DE: stacking malice, stealthing, landing a stealth attack. Now how would you do that without the numerous sources of stealth DE has?

>

> You don't take away what makes the spec unique. You don't take away shroud from necro, you don't take away adrenaline form warrior, you don't take away stealth from DE. Tinkering with cooldowns, damage modifiers, boon application... none of these would destroy the core of what the spec is supposed to be, but your suggested changes would.

>

> > IMO, a deadeye should not be able to achieve permastealth without taking shadow arts AND shadow refuge as a utility. I'm not sure what total nerfs would be necessary to achieve this but I think a nerf to silent scope would be a good start.

>

> I really dont understand how you could possibly think this. Core thief can permastealth WITHOUT Shadow Refuge, since release. We take this core thief kit, build on it with a stealth focused elite spec, and according to you we should arrive at something that has WORSE stealth access... How? Why?

>

> Also about an ICD on Silent Scope: we already had that, for like a week after the DE rework. It was absolutely unplayable, the lack of on-demand stealth basicly removed the class form any serious competetive PvP. So they did away with it... and it's not coming back.

 

I didn't propose reducing the number of ways DE has access to stealth, just the duration for which they can stay in stealth. Nerfs like that would be necessary since traiting into shadow arts already adds quite a bit.

 

When I say DE has access to perma stealth, I mean they could theoretically keep you in combat, attack you every few seconds, and only be revealed in the few seconds they're attacking you while being stealthed at all other times. I remember core thief without SA could do this, but the time in between attacks was much greater and if they attacked you frequently enough, at some point they'd run out of stealth options so in a duel or if they just didn't run/kite, they'd then be screwed. Some classes have absolutely no counterplay options for this but would have counterplay should DE not be able to stay in stealth for quite as long.

 

Addressing some of your points:

 

Stealth is not what makes DE unique. Rather, DE has an overreliance on stealth as a mechanic which resulted in them being given generous amounts of it. This wasn't really good design imo. The solution is to reduce stealth access or reduce reliance on stealth. The latter can't really be done unless a fairly large rework was done, such as adding an f2 which causes #1 skills to become the flipover malicious versions, but this seems tedious and possibly confusing for players. The former option of reducing stealth access could easily be done, but Anet would have to be careful with it since DE is so reliant on stealth. The wrong way to go about this would be to reduce the # of sources of stealth. The right way to go about it would be to decrease the duration on one or some of those sources of stealth which is what I proposed.

 

Should we reduce stealth access/bonuses granted by SA? Probably not. Nerfing something on core specs to balance an elite spec doesn't seem logical and is never a very popular move with the community. Thus we can really only look to nerf DE's stealth durations.

 

For the icd, I was thinking 1 or 2 seconds, just to stop multiple dodges in a row to stack stealth dura from this trait. It used to be 5 or 10 seconds if I recall, and that's obviously a bad move, sure.

 

If we can't agree on any of this, then you have to really think: Is the DE that we have now really in a good and balanced spot? When you have the same amount of people complaining about it as complained about full trap DH on HoT release, you can't just dismiss it as l2p issues and say DE is fine. It needs nerfs. If you don't agree with that, I'd say you have some bias going on.

 

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> I didn't propose reducing the number of ways DE has access to stealth, just the duration for which they can stay in stealth. Nerfs like that would be necessary since traiting into shadow arts already adds quite a bit.

>

> When I say DE has access to perma stealth, I mean they could theoretically keep you in combat, attack you every few seconds, and only be revealed in the few seconds they're attacking you while being stealthed at all other times.

 

DD on D/P with Bounding Dodger can do just the same. SA isn't even needed.

 

>I remember core thief without SA could do this, but the time in between attacks was much greater and if they attacked you frequently enough, at some point they'd run out of stealth options so in a duel or if they just didn't run/kite, they'd then be screwed. Some classes have absolutely no counterplay options for this but would have counterplay should DE not be able to stay in stealth for quite as long.

 

Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

 

> Addressing some of your points:

>

> Stealth is not what makes DE unique. Rather, DE has an overreliance on stealth as a mechanic which resulted in them being given generous amounts of it.

 

We pretty strongly disagree here. Some other classes/specialisations only have access to stealth, however DE has a reliance on it. Just as a necro can't work without shroud, a warrior can't get by without adrenaline, a DE can't get by without stealth, malice in itself is useless. And so thats why I'm saying stealth is basicly their class mechanic.

But feel free to point out how I'm wrong.

 

>This wasn't really good design imo. The solution is to reduce stealth access or reduce reliance on stealth.

 

Whether it's a good design or not, it's here now, and we can't expect A-net to delete a part of their own game. I actually started playing DE in ranked as a joke, to see how high I can get. I was about to get my top 25 title when the rework hit... it's MUCH weaker now but definitely easier to play. It really became an effective noobkiller, hence its surge in popularity.

 

>The latter can't really be done unless a fairly large rework was done, such as adding an f2 which causes #1 skills to become the flipover malicious versions, but this seems tedious and possibly confusing for players. The former option of reducing stealth access could easily be done, but Anet would have to be careful with it since DE is so reliant on stealth. The wrong way to go about this would be to reduce the # of sources of stealth. The right way to go about it would be to decrease the duration on one or some of those sources of stealth which is what I proposed.

 

I agree that a second rework likely won't happen, so let's not even entertain that idea further. Barring a rework, all nerf proposals i've seen were "take away the stealth". Your version with breaking away from the standard 3 sec stealth application and giving ICD-s aren't any better.

Making the stealth on dodge into a 1.5 second one would just make it more predictable, which would hurt DE in high end pvp, but keep it the same in the trash tiers of plat 1 and below, where people can't dodge at all.

Making Shadow Meld into something that only removes revealed on its last charge would make me stop using it alltogheter. I mean, I forget to remove the first stack before battle means now I can't disengage? Long battles can see the second charge coming back just before I needed it to remove reveal, so my own utility recharging causes me to die? Talk about bad design... now that would be one.

 

And even if you ruin DE stealth, core is still there. You cannot prevent DE-s permastealthing without butchering Shadow Arts., which you don't want to do:

 

> Should we reduce stealth access/bonuses granted by SA? Probably not. Nerfing something on core specs to balance an elite spec doesn't seem logical and is never a very popular move with the community. Thus we can really only look to nerf DE's stealth durations.

>

> For the icd, I was thinking 1 or 2 seconds, just to stop multiple dodges in a row to stack stealth dura from this trait. It used to be 5 or 10 seconds if I recall, and that's obviously a bad move, sure.

>

 

Why would you want to prevent multiple dodges to stack stealth? If I'm 1v1-ing an enemy DE and he's wasting all his endurance to stack stealth with dodges, I basicly won already. Thats a really bad move only newbies do, and you won't get away with it in any halfway decent match. And if it already causes them to lose the fight, no need to further punish them for being bad. I already feel like a schoolyard bully when fighting other DE-s most of the time, no need to make them even worse.

 

> If we can't agree on any of this, then you have to really think: Is the DE that we have now really in a good and balanced spot? When you have the same amount of people complaining about it as complained about full trap DH on HoT release, you can't just dismiss it as l2p issues and say DE is fine. It needs nerfs. If you don't agree with that, I'd say you have some bias going on.

>

 

We can't agree for the reasons I explained above. And I don't think DE is in a good and balanced spot because it can't be. In any serious coordinated sPvP enviroment it's useless, but at the moment it's the king of farming noobs. Now ask yourself this: do you want to balance this game for the newbies who are yet to learn the game, or for the good players who have already done so?

It's not an easy answer, balancing the game for the newbies is maybe the answer if you want greater numbers and profits. I won't be here if that starts happening, but I'm not the main contributor to Arenanets profits, so I can understand if they delete builds that can only be countered by player skill and almost nothing else.

 

Also I'm not against nerfing DE. I just don't like how all ideas about nerfing DE target its stealth. There are a gazillion ways to tone it down, and removing stealth is literally the only thing you shouldn't do.

 

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

 

> Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

 

The entire necromancer class, most ele builds (although this is because ele suffers from other problems), any warrior build not running "On My Mark!" nearly every guardian build. Any of these builds/classes can handle the DE if they make use of terrain and line of sight I'll admit though but this isn't an option that's always available.

 

> We pretty strongly disagree here. Some other classes/specialisations only have access to stealth, however DE has a reliance on it. Just as a necro can't work without shroud, a warrior can't get by without adrenaline, a DE can't get by without stealth, malice in itself is useless. And so thats why I'm saying stealth is basicly their class mechanic.

> But feel free to point out how I'm wrong.

 

Marking, malice and malice-consuming attacks are their class mechanics. They only need stealth so much as malice-consuming attacks requiring the DE to be stealthed first. To this end, they have plenty of unique sources for stealth, which I don't think should be taken away. The problem is them being able to spend so much of the fight in stealth.

 

> I agree that a second rework likely won't happen, so let's not even entertain that idea further. Barring a rework, all nerf proposals i've seen were "take away the stealth". Your version with breaking away from the standard 3 sec stealth application and giving ICD-s aren't any better.

 

Really? Because all the nerf proposals I see are more focused on DE's damage which I don't think can be taken away without ruining the spec. What makes them oppressive is a combination of multiple factors. I don't think nerfs aimed at the damage are appropriate, so the low-hanging fruit becomes nerfs aimed at their sustain.

 

> Making Shadow Meld into something that only removes revealed on its last charge would make me stop using it alltogheter. I mean, I forget to remove the first stack before battle means now I can't disengage? Long battles can see the second charge coming back just before I needed it to remove reveal, so my own utility recharging causes me to die? Talk about bad design... now that would be one.

 

I have a hard time believing you or any other DE ONLY uses Shadow Meld to remove revealed. Also, if we were to make a change akin to what I suggested, they could change Shadow Meld to have 1s or no icd at all so that both charges could be blown if the DE suddenly needed to remove revealed.

 

> We can't agree for the reasons I explained above. And I don't think DE is in a good and balanced spot because it can't be.

 

Not a valid argument to justify inaction. Better to try to balance and fail than to not try thinking that failure is already ensured.

 

>In any serious coordinated sPvP enviroment it's useless, but at the moment it's the king of farming noobs. Now ask yourself this: do you want to balance this game for the newbies who are yet to learn the game, or for the good players who have already done so?

> It's not an easy answer, balancing the game for the newbies is maybe the answer if you want greater numbers and profits. I won't be here if that starts happening, but I'm not the main contributor to Arenanets profits, so I can understand if they delete builds that can only be countered by player skill and almost nothing else.

 

Good point. It may not seem like it, but I'm very much in favor of balancing around the skill ceiling (higher levels of play) rather than the skill floor. HOWEVER, the skill level of players is a spectrum, and if I had to pin a point on the spectrum, below which DE "noob stomps" I think that point would be surpisingly high up, with the only sets where DE is useless being plat 2, maybe plat 1. This still merits it deserving attention from the devs.

 

> Also I'm not against nerfing DE. I just don't like how all ideas about nerfing DE target its stealth. There are a gazillion ways to tone it down, and removing stealth is literally the only thing you shouldn't do.

 

So what nerfs (and maybe consequent buffs) would you suggest then? You actually play DE so I think you're in a much better spot to suggest balance changes than most.

 

 

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

>

> > Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

>

> The entire necromancer class

 

Please don't hate, but I think vanilla necromancers actually stand a chance. I don't know about the sheer numbers, but the death shroud's skillset is really good on paper (1200 range autoattack, instant control of shroud 3, decent range of shroud 4 and an actual area reveal on shroud 5).

[Dahkeus.8243]

Dead eyes aren’t so much overpowered as they are badly designed with their stealth on dodge and miserable to play against.

 

Remove the stealth on dodge and replace it with another method of stealth that isn’t as abundant and invincible.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> >

> > > Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

> >

> > The entire necromancer class

>

> Please don't hate, but I think vanilla necromancers actually stand a chance. I don't know about the sheer numbers, but the death shroud's skillset is really good on paper (1200 range autoattack, instant control of shroud 3, decent range of shroud 4 and an actual area reveal on shroud 5).

 

A DE will pretty much always be engaging from beyond the range of DS4 and DS5. The AA will trade at a massive loss against any of DE's rifle skills.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > >

> > > > Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

> > >

> > > The entire necromancer class

> >

> > Please don't hate, but I think vanilla necromancers actually stand a chance. I don't know about the sheer numbers, but the death shroud's skillset is really good on paper (1200 range autoattack, instant control of shroud 3, decent range of shroud 4 and an actual area reveal on shroud 5).

>

> A DE will pretty much always be engaging from beyond the range of DS4 and DS5. The AA will trade at a massive loss against any of DE's rifle skills.

 

Well, you don't just stand there and autoattack during the shroud either. You can try to close the gap with shroud 2 -> 3, you could just buy some time with shroud 3 to, well, run towards the deadeye.

If everything else fails, you only really need to get into 900 range to be able to hit with your axe, and there are other possibilities like flesh wurm or spectral grasp (yes, not perfect, but it's something).

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

> > > >

> > > > The entire necromancer class

> > >

> > > Please don't hate, but I think vanilla necromancers actually stand a chance. I don't know about the sheer numbers, but the death shroud's skillset is really good on paper (1200 range autoattack, instant control of shroud 3, decent range of shroud 4 and an actual area reveal on shroud 5).

> >

> > A DE will pretty much always be engaging from beyond the range of DS4 and DS5. The AA will trade at a massive loss against any of DE's rifle skills.

>

> Well, you don't just stand there and autoattack during the shroud either. You can try to close the gap with shroud 2 -> 3, you could just buy some time with shroud 3 to, well, run towards the deadeye.

> If everything else fails, you only really need to get into 900 range to be able to hit with your axe, and there are other possibilities like flesh wurm or spectral grasp (yes, not perfect, but it's something).

 

You'll be forced out of shroud before Dark Path completes the teleport. It's too delayed to be effective. You can run 1200 distance with swiftness in the same amount of time it takes Dark Path to complete.

 

 

The issue with core necro vs deadeye is that core necro straight up lacks the damage capabilities to win. Rifle DE does roughly 4 times the sustained damage as core necro with just as much advantage in burst as well. You can't win against that, no matter how you play it. The best course of action for core nec vs deadeye is to fear the de with staff 5 then fear again with Doom, and hopefully a teammate will have +1'ed the deadeye by the time you run out of fears.

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> Most people who complain don't even understand how DE works. For example, you have to choose between permastealth and high burst(SA or DA).

 

Not true at all. CS/SA/DE is the most reliable burst build. DA doesn't really contribute much initial burst.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

>

> > Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

>

> The entire necromancer class, most ele builds (although this is because ele suffers from other problems), any warrior build not running "On My Mark!" nearly every guardian build. Any of these builds/classes can handle the DE if they make use of terrain and line of sight I'll admit though but this isn't an option that's always available.

 

How necros can counter DE: the spectral pull and the GS5 pull(smaller range but works through most obstacles) is enough for me to handle most DE-s. Unless I'm caught deep in the open and outnumbered, I can manage to stunbreak+(double)dodge into cover, and its a kiting game from there. If they don't come closer, they cant hit me, if they do come closer I pull them into my lifestealish vortex of hell. Pillars are your best friend when fighting deadeyes.

 

Most ele builds... there is only one ele build that I see in ranked, the S/D weaver. Once you're running out of evades and the DE can remark you (BQoBK procs, for 4 seconds it can dish out insane damage), you have to get into LoS. And that means not standing on the capture point for 4-5 seconds, which can be enough for a decap. If your team has an ele and you see it 1v1-ing the enemy DE on a sidenode, +1 it, because its an impossible duel to hold for longer then half a minute.

Also you being the ele: try air attunament sword 2 into the DE-s face right after you get the stun and/or visual cue for being marked again. You'll likely interrupt some of their burst. But on the long run, you can't tank a capture point against rifle DE. (Maybe ele needs buffs? The only viable build being a bunker that can't even bunker properly is so lame)

 

Warrior: 2 dodges, 2 endure pains, roughing resilience (getting marked is a daze on most DE builds, you can proc your +1000 thoughness just when the burst is incoming), shield block that reflects everything but DJ, fullcounter. If you can't get close enough to proc magebane tether on the DE while you burn through all of these... well not every kitten can grow up to be a warrior. As a DE i target spellbreakers last because it takes SO KITTEN LONG to make them burn all of these defensive cooldowns so I can actually try to go for a killing burst that just gets dodged anyway, because hardly any noob plays warrior anymore.

 

Guardian: If I ever feel like punishing thieves for thinking they are good enough to play DE, I log to core guardian. Judge's Intervention + Ring of Warding = you win by default. Even if the DE shadowsteps out of it, it gets knocked down, I can follow with a setswap and sword teleport, if the thief panics and returns thats another knockdown for moving back into the circle... as a core guard you're not hunted by DE, you are the hunter.

Dragonhunter is somewhat tricky, you need to land at least one F1 to win, and dont use your F3 after the DE stacked malice, you're gonna get a fully charged DJ into your fat blocking face. And as support FB, you rely on your team to deal with the DE by the time your F3 tome expires. Which won't work most of the time, but thats not your fault.

 

So there you have it, everything in this game can do something to deal with DE. It's not enough to confidently beat them in most cases, but it's enough not to die like a DPS golem.

 

> > Also I'm not against nerfing DE. I just don't like how all ideas about nerfing DE target its stealth. There are a gazillion ways to tone it down, and removing stealth is literally the only thing you shouldn't do.

>

> So what nerfs (and maybe consequent buffs) would you suggest then? You actually play DE so I think you're in a much better spot to suggest balance changes than most.

>

 

If we're balancing for high end pvp, none. As I said, it's already useless in actual organised PvP where teams have voice comms, rotate like they should, and abuse the enchanced reviving traits to the max.

 

If we were to appease SOME of the complaints of the causal community: nerf damage just enough to make the SA variant unable to kill targets on its own. That would mean a roughly 20% of damage shaved from the burst (less self-buffed might, less base damage, whatever), and force everyone to play the DA variant which has way less stealth.

However, this would only work if the meta in general would move from oneshot power builds to more sustain, less damage, and instant reviving shouldn't be a thing either. (Like dual well rez on necro, I turn teamwipes into instant wins with that one).

These are the hardest nerfs DE could endure while still being somewhat viable... but as I said I don't want any of this because against decent players DE is already useless.

 

 

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > Most people who complain don't even understand how DE works. For example, you have to choose between permastealth and high burst(SA or DA).

>

> Not true at all. CS/SA/DE is the most reliable burst build. DA doesn't really contribute much initial burst.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear, we're talking about sPvP here. Or at least I am. The thread is also in the PvP section. This build does not have trickery in it, therefore it's not an sPvP build, and that makes it irrelevant for me. If it works out for you in WvW, thats cool, I don't care.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > Most people who complain don't even understand how DE works. For example, you have to choose between permastealth and high burst(SA or DA).

> >

> > Not true at all. CS/SA/DE is the most reliable burst build. DA doesn't really contribute much initial burst.

>

> Maybe I wasn't clear, we're talking about sPvP here. Or at least I am. The thread is also in the PvP section. This build does not have trickery in it, therefore it's not an sPvP build, and that makes it irrelevant for me. If it works out for you in WvW, thats cool, I don't care.

 

My B, I thought I was still perusing the similar thread in WvW forum. A lot of these bleed into each other.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> >

> > > Could you name one class(not a specific build, a class) that cannot deal with a DE semi-resetting a fight via camping steath standing/lurking near you? In most cases slotting 1 utility before the match starts is more then enough. But most metabuilds don't even have to do that.

> >

> > The entire necromancer class, most ele builds (although this is because ele suffers from other problems), any warrior build not running "On My Mark!" nearly every guardian build. Any of these builds/classes can handle the DE if they make use of terrain and line of sight I'll admit though but this isn't an option that's always available.

>

> How necros can counter DE: the spectral pull and the GS5 pull(smaller range but works through most obstacles) is enough for me to handle most DE-s. Unless I'm caught deep in the open and outnumbered, I can manage to stunbreak+(double)dodge into cover, and its a kiting game from there. If they don't come closer, they cant hit me, if they do come closer I pull them into my lifestealish vortex of hell. Pillars are your best friend when fighting deadeyes.

>

> Most ele builds... there is only one ele build that I see in ranked, the S/D weaver. Once you're running out of evades and the DE can remark you (BQoBK procs, for 4 seconds it can dish out insane damage), you have to get into LoS. And that means not standing on the capture point for 4-5 seconds, which can be enough for a decap. If your team has an ele and you see it 1v1-ing the enemy DE on a sidenode, +1 it, because its an impossible duel to hold for longer then half a minute.

> Also you being the ele: try air attunament sword 2 into the DE-s face right after you get the stun and/or visual cue for being marked again. You'll likely interrupt some of their burst. But on the long run, you can't tank a capture point against rifle DE. (Maybe ele needs buffs? The only viable build being a bunker that can't even bunker properly is so lame)

>

> Warrior: 2 dodges, 2 endure pains, roughing resilience (getting marked is a daze on most DE builds, you can proc your +1000 thoughness just when the burst is incoming), shield block that reflects everything but DJ, fullcounter. If you can't get close enough to proc magebane tether on the DE while you burn through all of these... well not every kitten can grow up to be a warrior. As a DE i target spellbreakers last because it takes SO KITTEN LONG to make them burn all of these defensive cooldowns so I can actually try to go for a killing burst that just gets dodged anyway, because hardly any noob plays warrior anymore.

>

> Guardian: If I ever feel like punishing thieves for thinking they are good enough to play DE, I log to core guardian. Judge's Intervention + Ring of Warding = you win by default. Even if the DE shadowsteps out of it, it gets knocked down, I can follow with a setswap and sword teleport, if the thief panics and returns thats another knockdown for moving back into the circle... as a core guard you're not hunted by DE, you are the hunter.

> Dragonhunter is somewhat tricky, you need to land at least one F1 to win, and dont use your F3 after the DE stacked malice, you're gonna get a fully charged DJ into your fat blocking face. And as support FB, you rely on your team to deal with the DE by the time your F3 tome expires. Which won't work most of the time, but thats not your fault.

 

Spectral grasp is the only real thing necros have that could pose a threat to DE and that's just a single slow skill on a fairly long cooldown. DEs have plenty of utility and ability to deal with that. Reaper GS 5 works well against the inexperienced, but someone who realizes a necro is playing reaper will know to always avoid GS 5 since it's a confirmed combo into gravedigger (or a shroud burst combo) and GS 5 is very much avoidable on reflex.

 

No real comment on ele since I haven't played it since HoT. From what guildies and friends tell me though, it suffers from problems aside from the "hard counters" it has and needs buffs. This goes for weaver too to a degree.

 

Warrior does great in a dps race vs. other builds but this isn't the case with a DE since they can easily kite/wait out stances. From my experience, at least in wvw where I've seen numerous spellbreaker/core warr vs. DE duels, the DE has a very large advantage.

 

Guardian is the class I play most as you might have guessed. I agree, core guard has one of the best chances of surprising and downing a DE, but it goes both ways if the DE engages first. Shadowstep out of Ring of Warding puts the DE out of range of sword 2's teleport, and usually a RoW + mighty blow + focus 4 (what you're most likely to hit the DE with before they stealth and reposition again) is not enough to take one down. A DE running SA can easily burn through all of core guard's skills and outlast it. DH's f1 is great for taking out inexperienced DEs but it doesn't win the fight in the same way that spectral grasp on necro doesn't win the fight; a good DE can deal with it very easily. Also, a SA DE can negate the following burst (DH will pull in the DE after tether, even if DE goes stealth) by going stealth preventing crits, and DH does NOT have enough damage without crits to down even an 11k hp full zerker build.

 

> If we're balancing for high end pvp, none. As I said, it's already useless in actual organised PvP where teams have voice comms, rotate like they should, and abuse the enchanced reviving traits to the max.

>

> If we were to appease SOME of the complaints of the causal community: nerf damage just enough to make the SA variant unable to kill targets on its own. That would mean a roughly 20% of damage shaved from the burst (less self-buffed might, less base damage, whatever), and force everyone to play the DA variant which has way less stealth.

> However, this would only work if the meta in general would move from oneshot power builds to more sustain, less damage, and instant reviving shouldn't be a thing either. (Like dual well rez on necro, I turn teamwipes into instant wins with that one).

> These are the hardest nerfs DE could endure while still being somewhat viable... but as I said I don't want any of this because against decent players DE is already useless.

 

This is an interesting point of view, honestly it kinda sways my own views about how and especially when DE needs balancing. If they were to nerf the damage output of DE in this next patch without making the other changes you mentioned, I'm afraid that would hurt it's overall damage output and knock down its dps benchmarks in pve/raids which would be contentious to say the least. If the nerfs were specific to pvp/rifle, then I'd also worry about rifle becoming a rather weak weapon unless a specific build (DA and/or CS) was made. I think its damage now (without running full glass) is in a good spot.

 

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

Make shots fired from stealth cost double initiative if they are not stealth attacks. Put the cooldown back on snipers cover, maybe increase it to 12-15 secs all probs solved

[Delweyn.1309]

As long there will be noob killers class, it will be a problem in GW2. Because most players are not good at pvp.

 

So the problem can't be resolved. Keep a different gamestyle with -have to L2P mecanics-, or do only copycat -not original boring- same class warrior style ?

 

That's the question.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Make shots fired from stealth cost double initiative if they are not stealth attacks. Put the cooldown back on snipers cover, maybe increase it to 12-15 secs all probs solved

 

Also take away main and offhand weapons and make DJ heal the enemy instead of damaging it. Finally a good balance proposal!

[Vieux P.1238]

It's to late

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C65MwLyJEpg

[Zawn.9647]

the issue is that DE is a spec of extremes... either they go 1shot which has 0 interaction and shouldnt be a possible build

or they go perma-stealth which has near 0 interaction since stealth has only 1 counter play in Revealed and DE has a very retarded designed elite that removes the only counter to it :)

 

today i fought a DE on spvp...

 

stealth+1-2 shots

i run into him, he dodges and goes stealth

i go back to the point, behind a "wall" (LoS)

he pops on the points auto attacking me

i dodge into him and stun + burst, he manages to survive with 15% hp left and dodges to stealth

i randomly walk with auto attacks

he pops further away shooting me

i hide behind that wall mentioned earlier

 

and this keeps going until the game ends... (the score was like 470 when this started)

 

i'd rather smash my face against a wall than having to fight something like this... not even fighting i mean... just "dancing" perhaps

[DotDotWin.4357]

So the only people defending DE are people playing them and they say that their class is easy to defend against if you build your spec to specifically fight just them...

 

Yeah, I think this entire thread is pretty much proof that they need to be nerfed.

How about A-net buff them in PVE and nerf them in PVP so all that over powered one shotting can help other people instead of just pissing everyone off?