deadeye needs nerf.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"aleron.1438" said:

> If you actually want to do something about it instead of whining. Check your combat log and start adding the factors that allows them to one shot out of the blue before your reflects can kick in: sigil of air, sigil of fire if not force, malicious backstab and most likely also the first chain of dagger auto auto attack if ping isn't super low. Now ajdust your build hp/toughness runes to allow you to withstand that opening so you can then react dodge/evade/blink and do your counter strike.

 

Not fair that everyone should have to run 3k armor and 22k hp just to deal with this one build. The opening should just not be able to one-shot a well put-together build. Sure if someone is running 12-13k hp with no toughness then they deserve to get 1-shot, but someone with 17k+ hp and 2500 armor does not.

[Turk.5460]

> @"aleron.1438" said:

> As a full time DE roamer, I don't have a single issue with those CS SA 1MBS playin DEs out there.

 

How much HP do you have?

[aleron.1438]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"aleron.1438" said:

> > If you actually want to do something about it instead of whining. Check your combat log and start adding the factors that allows them to one shot out of the blue before your reflects can kick in: sigil of air, sigil of fire if not force, malicious backstab and most likely also the first chain of dagger auto auto attack if ping isn't super low. Now ajdust your build hp/toughness runes to allow you to withstand that opening so you can then react dodge/evade/blink and do your counter strike.

>

> Not fair that everyone should have to run 3k armor and 22k hp just to deal with this one build. The opening should just not be able to one-shot a well put-together build. Sure if someone is running 12-13k hp with no toughness then they deserve to get 1-shot, but someone with 17k+ hp and 2500 armor does not.

 

I hear you and I'm against allowing someone free reign on zerk/scholar or aggressive burst playstyle and us having to resort to tankier playstyles. But that being said, it's not just one build. A holo using stealth and opening up with their crazy burst cc chain on you, or same with power mirage from stealth or afar, or a core guardian, or a soulb with sic em RF or WI from stealth then maul then swap sic em RF, don't all these also burst very fast? Personally I want to have enough resilience to survive the initial moment before I can react (RfI, Withdraw or Mercy) and repay in kind.

 

Players have to ask themselves some questions:

Am I ok with being squishy because I too enjoy bursting up other squishies?

Do I like this enough so that I don't mind running back from spawn when I die?

Do I have good enough mobility to run back very fast to try a revenge?

 

Maybe for others it's not possible in anyway to counter this 1MBS build, but I just want to voice my opinion that as a Deadeye main that doesn't use Critical Strikes nor Shadow Arts, and that doesn't even use any dagger or pistols, I'm perfectly happy right now with my DA/Trickery dual rifle mara/durab build.

 

You could fix the MBS issue by splitting pvp+wvw from pve by giving it the same treatment as my proposed change to DJ, by making Malicious aspect tied to the stolen mark bundle when at 5 or more Malice treshold, using the normal Backstab when under that, but dagger has a very different playstyle so I'd make it at treshold of 3+.

Reason why it'd need a split is otherwise you'd kitten over every DE in raids, wouldn't be enough INI to #5 CnD

 

It's obvious ArenaNet is still experimenting with things. They pushed us further around stealth. I only used #3 rifle to take out siege, was it too much dps vs siege? It was faster to reach max malice with #2, still is. So the #3 nerf didn't affect me one bit. Sure previously you could do #3+#2+bundle to max malice DJ in a flowing efficient manner, but was just to clear camp a wee bit faster. It's better to use #2 to conserve INI imho.

 

Regardless of what Anet has plans, we'll adapt and still others will complain/salt whisper to thieves when they die. Played tripple pistols back then with stun Mark, then rifle non perma stealth with unblockable boon rippin cursed bullets (rip my love, synching those funny funky bullets to ending elixir S was fun). The current iteration of DE around stealth with rifle has peak flow.

 

On a slightly different subject, I keep seeing calls for DJ to not have unblockable. Do they know that it's the only way for a rifle DE to damage reliably a firebrand or a mirage with reflect on evade trait which they all run?

[Shroud.2307]

I just want to point out that you can use DJ with Quickness since this seems to be something most people have glazed over.

 

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"aleron.1438" said:

> I hear you and I'm against allowing someone free reign on zerk/scholar or aggressive burst playstyle and us having to resort to tankier playstyles. But that being said, it's not just one build. A holo using stealth and opening up with their crazy burst cc chain on you, or same with power mirage from stealth or afar, or a core guardian, or a soulb with sic em RF or WI from stealth then maul then swap sic em RF, don't all these also burst very fast? Personally I want to have enough resilience to survive the initial moment before I can react (RfI, Withdraw or Mercy) and repay in kind.

>

> Players have to ask themselves some questions:

> Am I ok with being squishy because I too enjoy bursting up other squishies?

> Do I like this enough so that I don't mind running back from spawn when I die?

> Do I have good enough mobility to run back very fast to try a revenge?

>

> Maybe for others it's not possible in anyway to counter this 1MBS build, but I just want to voice my opinion that as a Deadeye main that doesn't use Critical Strikes nor Shadow Arts, and that doesn't even use any dagger or pistols, I'm perfectly happy right now with my DA/Trickery dual rifle mara/durab build.

>

> You could fix the MBS issue by splitting pvp+wvw from pve by giving it the same treatment as my proposed change to DJ, by making Malicious aspect tied to the stolen mark bundle when at 5 or more Malice treshold, using the normal Backstab when under that, but dagger has a very different playstyle so I'd make it at treshold of 3+.

> Reason why it'd need a split is otherwise you'd kitten over every DE in raids, wouldn't be enough INI to #5 CnD

>

> It's obvious ArenaNet is still experimenting with things. They pushed us further around stealth. I only used #3 rifle to take out siege, was it too much dps vs siege? It was faster to reach max malice with #2, still is. So the #3 nerf didn't affect me one bit. Sure previously you could do #3+#2+bundle to max malice DJ in a flowing efficient manner, but was just to clear camp a wee bit faster. It's better to use #2 to conserve INI imho.

>

> Regardless of what Anet has plans, we'll adapt and still others will complain/salt whisper to thieves when they die. Played tripple pistols back then with stun Mark, then rifle non perma stealth with unblockable boon rippin cursed bullets (rip my love, synching those funny funky bullets to ending elixir S was fun). The current iteration of DE around stealth with rifle has peak flow.

>

> On a slightly different subject, I keep seeing calls for DJ to not have unblockable. Do they know that it's the only way for a rifle DE to damage reliably a firebrand or a mirage with reflect on evade trait which they all run?

 

Thanks for not immediately going for the ad hominem. To elaborate on my argument, I think it's a matter of having counterplay. There is a build on almost every class that is capable of essentially one-shotting you from the moment their first strike lands until their last strike lands. The burst is executed so fast that you can't possibly react to it reflexively. However, in most every case there is counterplay. I'll give some examples:

 

* Power mesmer/mirage burst: If you know the mesmer is present and stealthed, you can have your finger ready on the block/dodge/invuln. The moment you see the faintest glimmer of movement and dodge, you will take damage, but no more than about 6-8k damage assuming the mesmer is full zerk, and you have 2000-2500 armor and no other modifiers. If you have access to it, you can also place down a trap (dodge the moment you see it triggered), or apply protection in the time window you know they'll attack.

* Soulbeast Worldly Impact cheese: This one I think is a bit odious but there still is some counterplay in the most likely scenario. Fact is, a soulbeast can't stealth outside of your render distance and then sneak up on you without noticing. If you see a soulbeast and see them stealthing, you can stealth yourself to counter, move away from the path between you and them (if you have swiftness on, you're a moving target and they can't lead your movement since WI is melee), utilize traps/aoes and count seconds in stealth + mobility/teleport when you know they're almost on top of you and follow up with a burst after they appear.

* Core guard burst: Not only is guard incapable of sneaking up on someone, but their big burst has a 4 second tell and can be countered by an easily timed stability + a dodge.

* Holosmith: They have very limited access to stealth so they can't really sneak up on you. Their "one shots" are limited to melee and generally don't happen at the beginning of the fight so you do have time to outplay them. You can generally predict when they'll be upon you and stability/stunbreak + dodge will let you escape.

* Revenant: If you time your burst/CC correctly, you can shut them down the moment they teleport to you since there is ending lag to phase traversal which you can punish.

 

The OHKO malicious backstab DEs on the other hand break all the rules. They are in fact capable of sneaking up on you from outside of your render distance due to very easy and abundant stealth access.

[Substance E.4852]

Thief has been WvW ass cancer since launch.

 

Its never going to change.

 

All the class's pvp "weaknesses" are engineered toward a spvp setting where holding cap points is the way you win. Remove that criteria and thief becomes insanely powerful for the actual effort invested.

 

Stealth is no longer a thing that has to be used sparingly, in the right situation. Insane mobility isn't restricted by small maps and disengaging and then returning has no repercussions.

 

For thief to ever be "balanced" and actually fun to fight, it would need a WvW specific overhaul of nearly everything to such a degree that it would become another class entirely.

[crepuscular.9047]

ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

 

last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

 

so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

[Player.9621]

and typically anets going to knee jerk it and make all kinds of changes that effect everything BUT deadeye

[sostronk.8167]

Yes. Nerf Deadeye. Buff Daredevil pls.

[xp eke xp.6724]

Allready know? Every class is nerfed...

Why? Cause the class is only as good as the user. Means if you don't now what you do, you don't use the class well and loose a part of his potential...

 

For wvw it means: if you don't gear with enough armor/defense you get oneshotted. And there are more ways to handle the new challenge, it just means you can't do anymore anything without a punishment. So don't do anything and learn to beat the new situation. (Or avoid it)

 

Your choice ;)

[Turk.5460]

> @"Player.9621" said:

> and typically anets going to knee jerk it and make all kinds of changes that effect everything BUT deadeye

 

Typically? What are your thoughts on how DE was widely agreed upon to be the 2nd weakest elite *in all game modes* from PoF launch all the way up until May of 2018?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Player.9621" said:

> > and typically anets going to knee jerk it and make all kinds of changes that effect everything BUT deadeye

>

> Typically? What are your thoughts on how DE was widely agreed upon to be the 2nd weakest elite *in all game modes* from PoF launch all the way up until May of 2018?

 

yup it was as hard to tell people back then that deadeye is OK, as it is now. just that people back then claimed it was weaker than it was and now that its stronger :)

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

>

> last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

>

> so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

 

Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

> >

> > last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

> >

> > so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

>

> Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

 

Yes and that why perma stealth trapper was also a thing. ANET did NOT remove any stealth access when they made the changes they did on that spec.

[EvilSardine.9635]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

> >

> > last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

> >

> > so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

>

> Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

 

Because Deadeye can clear the only counter to stealth (reveal) with its TWO COUNT elite ability. They also get stealth on a dodge roll which is stupid. What you described means blowing many cool downs where deadeye can just casually do it.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

> >

> > last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

> >

> > so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

>

> Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

 

Oh come on now...

Perma Stealth on other Thieves = Red "stand here to counter my permastealth" circle.

[xp eke xp.6724]

To get it short:

- The stealthtime was never the problem

- the dmg means you should l2p bether to still be able to do the same dmg or you take more defense cause you don't want to be better.

- yeah maybe destealth on bases (with a better cd then the elite of thief) helps to hold them better.

- never run solo on wvw, now more than before.

- de makes finally a old playstile from thief useful enough to get more then no impact on wvw.

- it's boring if you play ages the same and now it's good that you have to change some things to be lidle better at what you did ages before.

- can we stop being mad at other classes, systems, balances. Just cause we want to do the same misstakes and the same actions since we found out we are well enough to feel like we are the best on doing that?

 

Take the challenge, you did it somehow the last year's, so this can't stop you from still standing a useful player. ;)

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

> > >

> > > last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

> > >

> > > so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

> >

> > Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

>

> Oh come on now...

> Perma Stealth on other Thieves = Red "stand here to counter my permastealth" circle.

 

Yeah imagine doing it out of view from people huh,now that would be something !

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"EvilSardine.9635" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

> > >

> > > last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

> > >

> > > so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

> >

> > Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

>

> Because Deadeye can clear the only counter to stealth (reveal) with its TWO COUNT elite ability. They also get stealth on a dodge roll which is stupid. What you described means blowing many cool downs where deadeye can just casually do it.

 

Its not about casually doing it,its about being capable of doing it.And dd + core both can.

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

> > > >

> > > > last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

> > > >

> > > > so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

> > >

> > > Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

> >

> > Oh come on now...

> > Perma Stealth on other Thieves = Red "stand here to counter my permastealth" circle.

>

> Yeah imagine doing it out of view from people huh,now that would be something !

 

In a tower? With that loud audio cue? I'm not sure what towers you're standing in, but every tower I know of you can pretty much see all nooks/crannies from a single point. You can most definitely *hear* black powder regardless of where you are standing in any tower...

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > > ok, DE's perma stealth is getting ridiculously stupid

> > > > >

> > > > > last night i was just chilling in my server's tower cleaning up my inventory, out of nowhere a DE appears and 2 shot me from behind

> > > > >

> > > > > so either A ) the guy's been cheating to port into the tower, or B ) he's been stealthing in there the entire time since the tower got capped :\

> > > >

> > > > Any thief can perm stealth in a tower,why do you people only act like only a DE can ? p5 + sb2 + bp + Hide in shadows ( heal stealth ) + shadow refuge would be sufficient,and you dont even need Sr for it.

> > >

> > > Oh come on now...

> > > Perma Stealth on other Thieves = Red "stand here to counter my permastealth" circle.

> >

> > Yeah imagine doing it out of view from people huh,now that would be something !

>

> In a tower? With that loud audio cue? I'm not sure what towers you're standing in, but every tower I know of you can pretty much see all nooks/crannies from a single point. You can most definitely *hear* black powder regardless of where you are standing in any tower...

 

not on desert map :3

[Avion Blade.4869]

instead of the dead eye's special shot being 100% direct power, would it be better to have it result in a stack of bleeds with the power damage reduced to 25% and the rest is condi ? Giving the opponent to have a chance of cleansing it or die failing to do so?

 

 

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Avion Blade.4869" said:

> instead of the dead eye's special shot being 100% direct power, would it be better to have it result in a stack of bleeds with the power damage reduced to 25% and the rest is condi ? Giving the opponent to have a chance of cleansing it or die failing to do so?

 

it does provide torment when using a pistol.

rifle is not really a condition weapon, i dont think that would fit in there.