Suggestions to Balance Burst Damage from Stealth

[Hot Boy.7138]

anet needs to rethink current base stats. they should rethink base vitality, toughness and armor for each class. Keeping the same base stats seem regressive. The game has changed so much since launch, base stats need to adapt to how things are now, at least in pvp/wvw

[Kayowin.9217]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> The problem is not the stealth attack, it is that you can literraly spam the stealth and stealth attack. Equiping a glass-cannon set, in particulary on thief, should award you with great dmg, but spamming stealth and leaps and teleport and dodges is completly absurd.

 

------Spamming Teleport/Leaps/Dodges? Were you fighting a sword DD?

A DE spamming stealth? Yea that happens, just like other thieves as it has been a hallmark of the class since day one.

 

> Stop putting stealth on every skills and traits, stop let buffing, tp skills etc when stealth.

> On which games/mmo do you see stealth on 36 skills and traits, that cleanse conditions, regen life, give movement speed, reduce dmg, REMOVE "revealed" by stealth, allow more attacks/initiative, allow to FAIL attacks... ???????? Response : none.

 

------Likely correct as there are no other games that I am aware of at least that have Revealed or Thief class with Initiative.... Not really sure what you point is here otherwise.

 

> Edit : on which game do you see thief put 15k dmg in one hit at 1500 range ????? You can't even close-gap before he flees away.

 

------If properly stated as "up to" I could answer that in proper fashion but in damage overall in a near instant fashion at 1500 range, Thief is only second or possibly third on the list. DJ has such a huge tell, (Unless you have hearing issues and I apologize up front if you do) if I have a dodge or skill evade available, I rarely get hit by them. The logic sort of goes like this:

 

I am marked, I hear DJ pre-fire ringing sound, dodge-evade-LOS.

>

> Edit²: I've seen people arguing "it is roaming, it is useless in zerg" Gosh you're so wrong, I just stealth and litteraly chain the elems and rangers etc at 1500range, even spam death's judgement and 3 to finish downed people, and stealth/flee again + half the time people are so focus on tagging the blob for bags they don't even care you're here.

 

------Yes you can finish downed people and flee just like any Thief/DD, Ranger/SB/Druid, Warrior dujour, Mirage, Holo, Ele, and pretty much everyone else can. I didn't think the problem is bottom feeding...

 

 

In addition to my commentary above,

there is not any instant 5+ malice stack skill to give you that 15K DJ you speak of. It takes nearly half a dozen hits to build that kind of malice and with all the other burst in the game on demand, that is almost conservative at this point. (25K+ Soulbeast pew pew or GS#2, FA Weaver, Mirage GS burst, Holo stunlock burst, and the list goes on) The 1 stack of malice on mark and 15k-18k Malicious Backstab is a big problem though and is the only stealth attack without a tell to the unwary. It's funny you mention: fail attacks? In my experience roaming, opponents have plenty of passives so that they don't get punished when failing attacks. (Depends on the class of course)

 

Please post a vid of you doing all these things easy mode on DE against experienced players as that might clarify things a bit further and others can learn since it sounds like you are an expert on the class. (I could use to learn a thing or two as well)

 

 

 

If you want to fix high damage insta-burst of which there is way too much of it from stealth or otherwise, there is two things I can think of right off the top of my head:

 

Massively scale back quickness duration. (cut them 50% to 75% or change it to superspeed only)

 

Get rid of percentage damage multipliers and have them add to the base stat instead (+n to power or ferocity) so it has bigger returns down low and does not scale as well up high. (Pretty much what ANet did when they introduced ferocity in the game)

 

Maybe if the community was asking for the right things and to fix problems as a whole, we might get a better balanced game and better fine tuning between the classes afterwards...

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

The point is stealth grants a large pack of bonus that is not rationnal for the term "stealth", like Movement speed ? Really ? Cleansing, life regen ?

On mostly games, stealth is not "spammable", sometimes it's not even an open skill ,once you're in fight; and you are "revealed" when you use a skill, care or not you failed or it's not a damaging attack; because stealth is about placing yourself before release the hell, or save your pity life when you're near death (like passif trait). So I don't know why you underline every words if you reveal you don't know anything Jon.

 

And please, please, wow, what a nerf ... "Malicious intent" + "Hidden thief" + "Be quick or be killed" + Assassin's Signet +1500 range ; if you don't get 15k it should come from your Minstrel set. And dodge Death's Judgement with quickness, sure Jon, please post a video, I could learn some things I don't know about the human reflex.

I'm not sure you know the thief very well.

 

 

Edit : "against experienced players"

Easy. F1, stealth attack. Don't work ? No problem, hit them twice with 2 (you don't need "half a dozen", are yous ure you play DE ?) , you get 5 malice, they can't close gap 1200 range before you perma stealth starting with a dodge (you can also take shadowstep) ; wait the CD while in perma stealth, F1 with 5 malice, stealth attack, finish. (You can also take the dagger that is way more dmg)

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > if we're talking about thief and thief only, just reveal them when they fail their backstab or other stealth skill (such as the riffle one)

> >

> Actually, DE's are revealed when attacking from stealth with rifle for 3's on Deaths Judgement, failed or not, and Three Round Burst/Double Tap AND S Shot while in combat or on connect. I haven't used Malicious Backstab so I cant comment on that as to if there is a reveal.

>

 

that was my point :D

[kash.9213]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> The point I'm addressing here isn't that stealth can be reapplied easily or causes loss of targeting or can be stacked.

>

> What I'm trying to get at is attacks from stealth has extremely Low tells and can often result in instant KOs within a second or two.

>

> There is barely sufficient time to react.

>

> Better if you see the stealther coming in which case you need to Guess timings, burn defenses, and hope he isn't stacking stealth.

>

> Worse if he engages you from blind spots. Like hiding in towers or keeps where you can't spot him before he closes in with stealth and downs you in one burst. Or hiding near camps and approaching from far with stealth and does the same to you while you are totally oblivious to his presence.

>

> **Damage from stealth needs to be shaved for 1 second during and after its opener due to extremely limited tells which affects reaction time. **

 

No. Just reduce the frequent easy sources of stealth, unless you want to reduce damage for everyone across the board.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > if we're talking about thief and thief only, just reveal them when they fail their backstab or other stealth skill (such as the riffle one)

> > >

> > Actually, DE's are revealed when attacking from stealth with rifle for 3's on Deaths Judgement, failed or not, and Three Round Burst/Double Tap AND S Shot while in combat or on connect. I haven't used Malicious Backstab so I cant comment on that as to if there is a reveal.

> >

>

> that was my point :D

 

There is a misunderstanding here. I think @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" wants a failed sneak attack to reveal. It currently does not (unless it is Death's Judgement, which reveals at the beginning of the cast, regardless if shot is failed or even cancelled cast).

 

@"Kayowin.9217" thinks that all rifle attack skills reveal from stealth if failed. This is not the case, you are only revealed from stealth when using skills 2 and 3 on Rifle *if you do not have auto attack turned off*. If auto attack is on, the game attempts to first cast Death's Judgement for a split second before executing skill 2 or 3, which triggers the "reveal on cast" part of Death's Judgement. This is not a problem if you have auto attack turned off.

[Kayowin.9217]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > > if we're talking about thief and thief only, just reveal them when they fail their backstab or other stealth skill (such as the riffle one)

> > > >

> > > Actually, DE's are revealed when attacking from stealth with rifle for 3's on Deaths Judgement, failed or not, and Three Round Burst/Double Tap AND S Shot while in combat or on connect. I haven't used Malicious Backstab so I cant comment on that as to if there is a reveal.

> > >

> >

> > that was my point :D

>

> There is a misunderstanding here. I think @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" wants a failed sneak attack to reveal. It currently does not (unless it is Death's Judgement, which reveals at the beginning of the cast, regardless if shot is failed or even cancelled cast).

>

> @"Kayowin.9217" thinks that all rifle attack skills reveal from stealth if failed. This is not the case, you are only revealed from stealth when using skills 2 and 3 on Rifle *if you do not have auto attack turned off*. If auto attack is on, the game attempts to first cast Death's Judgement for a split second before executing skill 2 or 3, which triggers the "reveal on cast" part of Death's Judgement. This is not a problem if you have auto attack turned off.

 

I Actually do not use auto attack because I personally do not like it and because of reflects. If I connect on SS or TRB or use them while in combat, it reveals me at least?

[Kayowin.9217]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > if we're talking about thief and thief only, just reveal them when they fail their backstab or other stealth skill (such as the riffle one)

> > >

> > Actually, DE's are revealed when attacking from stealth with rifle for 3's on Deaths Judgement, failed or not, and Three Round Burst/Double Tap AND S Shot while in combat or on connect. I haven't used Malicious Backstab so I cant comment on that as to if there is a reveal.

> >

>

> that was my point ::dizzy:

 

Sorry i misunderstood.

[Kayowin.9217]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> The point is stealth grants a large pack of bonus that is not rationnal for the term "stealth", like Movement speed ? Really ? Cleansing, life regen ?

> On mostly games, stealth is not "spammable", sometimes it's not even an open skill ,once you're in fight; and you are "revealed" when you use a skill, care or not you failed or it's not a damaging attack; because stealth is about placing yourself before release the hell, or save your pity life when you're near death (like passif trait). So I don't know why you underline every words if you reveal you don't know anything Jon.

>

> And please, please, wow, what a nerf ... "Malicious intent" + "Hidden thief" + "Be quick or be killed" + Assassin's Signet +1500 range ; if you don't get 15k it should come from your Minstrel set. And dodge Death's Judgement with quickness, sure Jon, please post a video, I could learn some things I don't know about the human reflex.

> I'm not sure you know the thief very well.

>

>

> Edit : "against experienced players"

> Easy. F1, stealth attack. Don't work ? No problem, hit them twice with 2 (you don't need "half a dozen", are yous ure you play DE ?) , you get 5 malice, they can't close gap 1200 range before you perma stealth starting with a dodge (you can also take shadowstep) ; wait the CD while in perma stealth, F1 with 5 malice, stealth attack, finish. (You can also take the dagger that is way more dmg)

 

Yes some DE skills are tied to stealth. What a novel thought. You make it sound like dodging isn't a thing anymore almost like if everyone is playing Spellbreaker.... 15K on minstrel? Actually I run full ascended marauder and at most top out at 15k vs squishier targets with DJ and usually use TRB unless I am sure the target is going to use a reflect, then I will go to DJ earlier as a good amount of people out there haven't figured out it is unblockable yet. And again i'll say, that 15K will a massive tell is not even close at toe top of the near instant damage chain charts. You are the expert though as you say since you appear to know so much about the class.

[Shroud.2307]

I have the solution.

 

In Skyrim, the less clothes you're wearing the better your ability to move around undetected.

 

Now if we apply that to GW2, naked = stealth! ?

[Aero.7925]

Anet designed or wants DE to be a sniper so let's leave the stealth damage as is and my suggestion focused on limiting perma stealth somehow by adding some sort of exhaustion mechanics.You can spam x numbers of stealth but after that you can’t stealth for __ secs. You can still stack up on stealth or maintain it for a set duration, it will give you time to snipe someone, if it fails, you need to kill him somehow or disengage as fast as you can. A high risk, high reward thing.

 

Or make stealth like holosmith’s photon forge. When you’re in stealth, there’s a bar that increases and when you reach the max, you won’t be able to stealth until it cools down like holosmith forge. When you’ve only used up a portion of it, It can cool down slowly as long as you’re not in stealth.

 

[Kayowin.9217]

> @"Aero.7925" said:

> Anet designed or wants DE to be a sniper so let's leave the stealth damage as is and my suggestion focused on limiting perma stealth somehow by adding some sort of exhaustion mechanics.You can spam x numbers of stealth but after that you can’t stealth for __ secs. You can still stack up on stealth or maintain it for a set duration, it will give you time to snipe someone, if it fails, you need to kill him somehow or disengage as fast as you can. A high risk, high reward thing.

>

> Or make stealth like holosmith’s photon forge. When you’re in stealth, there’s a bar that increases and when you reach the max, you won’t be able to stealth until it cools down like holosmith forge. When you’ve only used up a portion of it, It can cool down slowly as long as you’re not in stealth.

>

 

Can fix that by eliminating dodge food and sigils of energy from WvW and then you fix multiple issues with multiple classes in one throw.

[Kayowin.9217]

> @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > > @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > > > if we're talking about thief and thief only, just reveal them when they fail their backstab or other stealth skill (such as the riffle one)

> > > > >

> > > > Actually, DE's are revealed when attacking from stealth with rifle for 3's on Deaths Judgement, failed or not, and Three Round Burst/Double Tap AND S Shot while in combat or on connect. I haven't used Malicious Backstab so I cant comment on that as to if there is a reveal.

> > > >

> > >

> > > that was my point :D

> >

> > There is a misunderstanding here. I think @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" wants a failed sneak attack to reveal. It currently does not (unless it is Death's Judgement, which reveals at the beginning of the cast, regardless if shot is failed or even cancelled cast).

> >

> > @"Kayowin.9217" thinks that all rifle attack skills reveal from stealth if failed. This is not the case, you are only revealed from stealth when using skills 2 and 3 on Rifle *if you do not have auto attack turned off*. If auto attack is on, the game attempts to first cast Death's Judgement for a split second before executing skill 2 or 3, which triggers the "reveal on cast" part of Death's Judgement. This is not a problem if you have auto attack turned off.

>

> I Actually do not use auto attack because I personally do not like it and because of reflects. If I connect on SS or TRB or use them while in combat, it reveals me at least?

 

I tested it again and still works the same. TRB or SS from stealth, no auto or DJ, 3s reveal on connect or if in combat.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Voted other because the option for “no changes needed” wasn’t available.

 

There are definetly changes needed.

 

Thief hitting you for 15k backstab without tell is ok, but are fields of scourge have to have a prewarning while doing only very little dmg?

 

Doesn't make sense at all

[Turk.5460]

> @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > > @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > > > if we're talking about thief and thief only, just reveal them when they fail their backstab or other stealth skill (such as the riffle one)

> > > > >

> > > > Actually, DE's are revealed when attacking from stealth with rifle for 3's on Deaths Judgement, failed or not, and Three Round Burst/Double Tap AND S Shot while in combat or on connect. I haven't used Malicious Backstab so I cant comment on that as to if there is a reveal.

> > > >

> > >

> > > that was my point :D

> >

> > There is a misunderstanding here. I think @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" wants a failed sneak attack to reveal. It currently does not (unless it is Death's Judgement, which reveals at the beginning of the cast, regardless if shot is failed or even cancelled cast).

> >

> > @"Kayowin.9217" thinks that all rifle attack skills reveal from stealth if failed. This is not the case, you are only revealed from stealth when using skills 2 and 3 on Rifle *if you do not have auto attack turned off*. If auto attack is on, the game attempts to first cast Death's Judgement for a split second before executing skill 2 or 3, which triggers the "reveal on cast" part of Death's Judgement. This is not a problem if you have auto attack turned off.

>

> I Actually do not use auto attack because I personally do not like it and because of reflects. If I connect on SS or TRB or use them while in combat, it reveals me at least?

 

Being in combat has no bearing on being revealed. SS or TRB needs to connect and deal damage or be absorbed in order to reveal you. It may be coincidence that your stealth timer runs out at the same time that your shot does not connect, but just by being in combat and missing SS or TRB will not reveal you. It *has* to connect. Note: your attacks being blocked, evade, or hitting an invulnerable target will *NOT* reveal you.

 

> @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> I tested it again and still works the same. TRB or SS from stealth, no auto or DJ, 3s reveal on connect or if in combat.

 

It's the "*or* if in combat" that's the issue here. We know that connecting hits reveal the caster, but you are insinuating that you are getting revealed even if your hits do not connect, as long as you are in combat - which is incorrect. You're either testing it wrong, or you are the *only* thief in the game who is experiencing such a bug. The former is much more likely. Please provide video evidence and submit it to the bug forum if the latter is the case.

[Ferus.3165]

or increase the cast time of all abilites by +1 sec if you use them while you are stealthed. And make invis gyro special so that it is not affected by this.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

Just nerf malicious backstab. Easy fix.

[SoV.5139]

What really needs to be reduced is the "forgiveness" for royally messing up a burst. Maybe the damage needs a slight nerf, but what really needs the nerf bat swung hard at it is the ability to escape even the worst of screw ups. The playstyle is supposed to be high risk high reward. When the burst out of stealth fails to gain the advantage the player hoped for, they should pay for it by having to eat a counter attack, or have to play defensively to avoid eating said counter attack, other than pushing one button to go back into stealth while removing reveal - so they can reset and try the same antics over and over again until the other player they are attacking makes ONE MISTAKE which gets them killed.

[Riko.9214]

Burst from stealth is an offensive counterpart to no-skill-defenses (no precise timing/positioning required or outright automatic). If they nerf those then it would make sense to look into stealth burst.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> I have the solution.

>

> In Skyrim, the less clothes you're wearing the better your ability to move around undetected.

>

> Now if we apply that to GW2, naked = stealth! ?

 

I approve and endorse this idea especially for female characters.

 

Males will of course need to be deleted

[EremiteAngel.9765]

My point was actually more on the reaction time being too short when you are hit with a huge burst from invis within a short frame of time, single or combo hits.

[Turk.5460]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > I have the solution.

> >

> > In Skyrim, the less clothes you're wearing the better your ability to move around undetected.

> >

> > Now if we apply that to GW2, naked = stealth! ?

>

> I approve and endorse this idea especially for female characters.

>

> Males will of course need to be deleted

 

:( What about the Charrbois who like other Charrbois.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > I have the solution.

> > >

> > > In Skyrim, the less clothes you're wearing the better your ability to move around undetected.

> > >

> > > Now if we apply that to GW2, naked = stealth! ?

> >

> > I approve and endorse this idea especially for female characters.

> >

> > Males will of course need to be deleted

>

> :( What about the Charrbois who like other Charrbois.

 

We're all kendolls, they already get a show just from armor choices.

Lowly cis-genders like me gets nuffin -_-

 

Is cis-gender the right term? I'm hanging by a fingernail with the campus lexicon. The other day one of our goons rattled off another half-donzen letters after LGBT and I felt very old.

[WJHB.8130]

Or learn how to counter stealth?

[Nimon.7840]

> @"WJHB.8130" said:

> Or learn how to counter stealth?

 

Easy to say as not all classes can.

 

But people cried about scourge not having visuals for shade attacks and they added the delay.

Attacking out of stealth is the exact same thing.

You don't know when the attack is coming. So logically it has to give the opponent a prewarning as well. Else the classes aren't treated the same way.