Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[apharma.3741]

A lot of people here don't seem to understand a fundamental of the game which I will spell out here for you:

 

#ALL CLASSES ARE DIFFERENT.

 

Warriors and guardians don't need instant cast abilities because they have access to stability which lets them use abilities without being interrupted while also having damage reduction through higher armour and in warriors case higher base health, they also tend to have quite high regenerative abilities too. Thieves, eles and mesmers have lower health and/or armour so they're taking 5-10% more damage than warriors and guardians and have about 4,000-8,000 less health baseline, they generally have lower access to stability but got more mobility and instant cast abilities to help them out if they got locked down, they are designed to be elusive.

 

Now a lot will point out "hurr hurr that's not how it is now!" and you're right because we have had expansions, reworks and power creep warping the core balance of classes in such a way that there's been no trade off for gaining something they lacked a lot of the time. A prime example is engineers are meant to be as weak to conditions as revenants....yeah that's not the case anymore by a long stretch of the imagination.

[Solori.6025]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> > > >

> > > > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > > > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> > > >

> > > > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > > > You do for one you do for all-

> > > > how about this.

> > > > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > > > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > > > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > > > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > > > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > > > Etc.

> > > > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

> > >

> > Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

> > Still has less evasion than a thief.

> > and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

> > What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

> > *Lets just nerf them all*

> > If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

> > No need to be biased right?

> > > Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

> >

> > You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

> >

> > Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

> >

>

> No other class can cast while dodging nor can they dodge a burst after being stunned.

> (keywords being dodge and dodging)

>

Obviously, don't know where you got that they couldn't.

Try keeping up with classes next time I.

[Odik.4587]

> @"kappa.2036" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > Ahh...sourbeast crying about mirage... What a nice view here

>

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > That's how I feel when I play my Soulbeast. What again is CC?

>

> I personally think that soulbeast should be nerfed, exactly like the other broken PoF specs. Nerfing soulbeast is quite simple though and has nothing related to their mechanic: just reduce the number of boons at their disposal and their duration - especially when they merge with the pet, remove Plasma, and there you go, you have a balanced spec. I'm all for it, but they need to nerf a lot of things on other PoF specializations aswell btw.

 

Where are your threads about soulbeast nerfs ? ^Dolyak stance is fine as it is, just add 90s cd with changes you suggest and indeed, more or less we would get rid of boonbeast

[Solori.6025]

> @"kappa.2036" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > You do for one you do for all-

> > how about this.

> > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > Etc.

> > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> >

>

> I think you are misunderstanding something. All the mechanics you mentioned above have nothing to do with ON DODGE mechanics. Mirage cloak replace the standard dodge so it should be balanced around this. For example, daredevil also gains additional effects on dodging, but these effects are still balanced around a normal dodge. This allows you lock them down with a good timed cc or immobilize - unless they are running Unhindered Combatant that removes movement impairing conditions, of course.

>

>

You mean you can lock a thief down when they have used all CDs and pop out od stealth at an inopportune time. Like I said, you can still steal or port. Which makes whatever stun meaningless.

Also yes. I am aware that "on dodge "mechanics are unique to mirage ( specifically doing actions while evading)You know what's not unique. Doing an Action while CCd. Now pay attention to that wording.

Now logically. YOU WILL NOT GET ANET to rework the thematic nature of mirage cloak.

I need you and everyone else to let that sink in. I know it's hard. But the sooner you accept that the better you'll be.

What you can get them to change is the nature of being able to use mirage cloak while CCd. Speaking of which.

 

>In my opinion, mirage cloak should not be accessible if you are stunned or immobilized, exactly like a regular dodge. And this is just the tip of the iceberg

 

This right here tells me you weren't complaining about doing actions while evading.

This is what I was addressing from your OP.

Yes I know other classes can't evade while stunned. Just like other classes dont get aegis while stunned. Port while stunned. Control pets while stunned. Etc.

And before you quote me again @"sephiroth.4217" yes. I am still aware mirage cloak let's you do actions while evading. I'm talking about doing actions while CCd or locked down. ( and please reread this statement and pay attention to the word action. I'm very sure you are intelligent enough to discern exactly what I am talking about without reiterating the obvious)

 

 

It's amazing what happens when you mention the abilities for other classes.

" Thieves and rangers have skills that you can use while CCd too"

Every one else: " WeLl we MeANt dOinG sKiLLs dUrINg EvASioN DoNT ToUcH My SkILLs!!"

 

Like seriously?

What's the issue with nerfing all classes to not do actions while CCd? I'm earnestly curious?

If it's wrong then say it's wrong for all. OR. Just admit that you want mesmer removed and you have an earnest bias.

 

Also. I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain that all classes includes mesmer ability to shatter as well. But just in case someone is that slow at getting it. All classes means mesmers ability to shatter...

[will de grijze jager.6594]

kappa.2036 ✭✭✭ February 5, 2019 in PVP

The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

 

Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

In my opinion, mirage cloak should not be accessible if you are stunned or immobilized, exactly like a regular dodge. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67839/anet-the-mirage-cloak-mechanic-should-be-against-your-combat-philosophy#latest

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

^ I'm mostly curious now about the responses you'll get.

There's a thread complaining about stunbreak on rev, apharma mentioned legend swap stunbreak, with that change, that would be gonna too.

So I'm really curious to see if people are ready to give up their while cc'ed instant casts to get mirage nerfed or will just say "we're fine doing that, you're not" and ruin their entire premise.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> That's how I feel when I play my Soulbeast. What again is CC?

You atleast need utility skills for Soulbeast for that.

[Burnfall.9573]

Stop pointing fingers at Mesmer. Mesmer had nothing to do with their design and their creation. Take accountability; and see that the entire truth-- all professions at the moment are broken and are behaving toxic to the health and to the balance of the game.

 

Accept the truth; nothing can be done to Mesmer until they are completely redesigned/reworked.

 

There will not be any solutions, changes nor any results until the entire professions are re-evaluated correctly

 

**PERIOD!!**

 

(-i'm sorry to say this Anet Anet philosophy need to be re-examine because the level of toxicity in the game due to bad design and unhealthy balancing... need to be called into questioning- )

 

have a good day--

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > > > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> > > > >

> > > > > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > > > > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> > > > >

> > > > > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > > > > You do for one you do for all-

> > > > > how about this.

> > > > > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > > > > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > > > > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > > > > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > > > > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > > > > Etc.

> > > > > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

> > > >

> > > Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

> > > Still has less evasion than a thief.

> > > and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

> > > What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

> > > *Lets just nerf them all*

> > > If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

> > > No need to be biased right?

> > > > Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

> > >

> > > You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

> > >

> > > Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

> > >

> >

> > No other class can cast while dodging nor can they dodge a burst after being stunned.

> > (keywords being dodge and dodging)

> >

> Obviously, don't know where you got that they couldn't.

> Try keeping up with classes next time I.

 

How is that relevant to... anything?

 

edit: nvm that must have been your mistake in posting as there is something in context you posted later where you showed exactly what I was reffering too..

 

and yes I understand, Why wouldn't I when I was able to see strait through you to begin with?

 

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > > > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > > > > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > > > > > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > > > > > You do for one you do for all-

> > > > > > how about this.

> > > > > > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > > > > > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > > > > > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > > > > > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > > > > > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > > > > > Etc.

> > > > > > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

> > > > >

> > > > Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

> > > > Still has less evasion than a thief.

> > > > and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

> > > > What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

> > > > *Lets just nerf them all*

> > > > If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

> > > > No need to be biased right?

> > > > > Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

> > > >

> > > > You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

> > > >

> > > > Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

> > > >

> > >

> > > No other class can cast while dodging nor can they dodge a burst after being stunned.

> > > (keywords being dodge and dodging)

> > >

> > Obviously, don't know where you got that they couldn't.

> > Try keeping up with classes next time I.

>

> How is that relevant to... anything?

>

> edit: nvm that must have been your mistake in posting as there is something in context you posted later where you showed exactly what I was reffering too..

>

> and yes I understand, Why wouldn't I when I was able to see strait through you to begin with?

>

>

 

Straight *

 

Dont know what you saw through as you are talking about something I am not. As was mentioned in my previous reply and was elaborated ....

Must have been your mistake...

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> Ahh...sourbeast crying about mirage... What a nice view here

 

Explain why he is wrong ?

 

Oh wait..you can't.

[Solori.6025]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > That's how I feel when I play my Soulbeast. What again is CC?

> You atleast need utility skills for Soulbeast for that.

 

Actually you could trait for it OR use a beastmode skill depending on the pet you select.

Or use a pet skill....

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > That's how I feel when I play my Soulbeast. What again is CC?

> > You atleast need utility skills for Soulbeast for that.

>

> Actually you could trait for it OR use a beastmode skill depending on the pet you select.

> Or use a pet skill....

 

Yeah you take the trait will let you lose the refresh ability in the trait. or you take shared agony and that one has a cd of 90 seconds and you lose the option of a other good trait. your pets don't really have stunbreaks on f2. All the stubreak option you have you sacrifice or a trait or a utility skill or a good pet. To get to the point you think wat is cc you sacrifice a lot of damage utilit/traits for it. For mesmer that is not the case. You take 1 trait and you don't really need any other source of stunbreaks. I am not saying soulbeast is not op or broken, but mesmer is worse. They will win agianst almost all the other classes except mesmer or soulbeast that has a chance.

[Solori.6025]

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > That's how I feel when I play my Soulbeast. What again is CC?

> > > You atleast need utility skills for Soulbeast for that.

> >

> > Actually you could trait for it OR use a beastmode skill depending on the pet you select.

> > Or use a pet skill....

>

> Yeah you take the trait will let you lose the refresh ability in the trait. or you take shared agony and that one has a cd of 90 seconds and you lose the option of a other good trait. your pets don't really have stunbreaks on f2. All the stubreak option you have you sacrifice or a trait or a utility skill or a good pet.

 

Well you dont sacrifice a pet. ( for meta boon beast) Since saimoth is meta. It's soulbeast merge skill on F3 is a stun break and also a damage immunity.

You can still use ranger f2 while stunned. It's usefulness during that situation is as you said dependant on the pet.

The rest I do agree with for condi mirage. Which has been a problem that has been unresolved in no small thanks and credit to the random crying in the forums detracting from actual issues.

Which is why I proposed to change that and everything else not labeled a stun break to not be used while CCd.

This means that every class now has to use a stun break to continue combat actions.

I think that's reasonable.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Shadow Order.7258" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > This should be in here as well:

> > >

> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67574/countless-pvp-mesmer-suggestions#latest

> >

> > No it shouldn't. It's a waste of that person's time. Just like most feedback is. They aren't going to do anything with mirage. The class is broken at its base level. Since they just reworked the cancer that is clone spam and mirage is designed to be slippery don't expect a change.

>

> I'm guess I'm more referencing my explanation in that thread of this:

>

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > 3. **I can see that you don't pay much attention to feedback that doesn't offer balance suggestions, so I'll give my balance suggestions here and now, this way no one is confused as to quite exactly where I stand concerning "What should happen to Mirage." To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output. I believe a better balance could be achieved through changing how Infinite Horizon and Illusionary Ambush work. First let's talk Infinite Horizon. Most players would say that the fundamental problem is Mirage Cloak itself, allowing the Mirage to essentially dodge while still attacking. I think Mirage Cloak and Ambush skills are fine. I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved, while allowing those clones to land Ambush skills and lay down the pressure of potential Shatters. There is no other class/build in the game now or ever, that could play 100% defensively like this, while still laying down enough attrition AND burst pressure, to be able to threaten even builds that are designed to Bunker vs. conditions. That's a lot of damage reward for complete full defensive play. Other classes/builds most choose "Is it the right time to land offensive pressure? Or should I stay defensive, lay off the attack and make sure I survive?" The Mirage can do both simultaneously. Although this is obnoxious in design, I feel it is balanced up until the point where a player selects Infinite Horizon. At that point, Infinite Horizon turns an already obnoxious mechanical design into something that is too powerful not only mechanically, but also attribute tied with its no cool-down clone ambush hard damage. If it were up to me, Infinite Horizon would receive a 10 second cool-down. This would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently punish attackers with clone Ambush damage, each an every time the attacker chooses to go offensive instead of defensive "remember, other classes can't do both in the same way a Mirage can." With a 10 second cool down, it would mitigate the ambush damage output and force the Mirage to choose more wisely when he should or should not burn a Mirage Cloak. Now Illusionary Ambush, this skill is just too powerful in design. So not only is it an instant cast 1200 range teleport that works as either immediately shifting kiting into shatter position or for mobility disengage when using enemy targeting wisely, but it also breaks enemy target, functions as half a stun break positionally, creates Mirage Cloak, and then procs more Ambush skills. That's a lot of utility for a 20 second cool-down skill. Illusionary Ambush should be reduced to 900 range or less, and its cool-down should be increased to at least 30 seconds, maybe more. this would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently on demand choose whether he wants to be away from you or on top of your head. This would force the Mirage to more wisely choose if it was important to use Illusionary Ambush or not, instead of allowing him to so freely spam the long range 20 second cool-down skill. But that about sums up my balance suggestions. After Mirage is properly nerfed "no cop-out reworks", then I want to see Boonbeasts & Holosmiths get hit.**

 

That IH suggestion is awful, and here's why, by slapping a 10cd icd on IH, you don't chose to go offensive or defensive like you said, you simply lose even more control on clones because, you know , dodge on mirage is done not only offensively it's done defensively too, so I dodge to evade a burst and my clones all do an ambush, so not only I burnt a dodge for an evade I burnt an ambush on the wrong time too.

Even Countless' IH nerf is better than this and his suggestion sucked a lot.

 

Regarding IA, you want to mess with the range and cd. You don't want a nerf you want a delete. I mean up the cd? Sure. Reduce the range? Sure. But both?

[kappa.2036]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

 

> What's the issue with nerfing all classes to not do actions while CCd? I'm earnestly curious?

> If it's wrong then say it's wrong for all. OR. Just admit that you want mesmer removed and you have an earnest bias.

>

> Also. I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain that all classes includes mesmer ability to shatter as well. But just in case someone is that slow at getting it. All classes means mesmers ability to shatter...

 

This would make multiple cc chains OP. WvW will become something unplayable.

 

And btw Mirage is the ONLY class that can "dodge" while stunned or immobilized right now. We are not talking about Steal or Distortion. We are talking about a mechanic that replace normal dodges and allows you to dodge even when you could not do it (on top of other effects like Ambushes). THAT is beyond broken.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"kappa.2036" said:

 

> And btw Mirage is the ONLY class that can "dodge" while stunned or **immobilized** right now.

 

No, it's not.

[coro.3176]

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

> >

> > Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

> >

> > If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

> >

> > You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

>

> Whoa there! You mean to say you adjust your actions to actively play around a game mechanic?! Heresy! Everyone knows that you have to immediately press the damage buttons after landing a CC - that's the only way to win!

 

Actually, a lot of times you do.

 

Eg. Magnet on Engineer. This skill's main purpose is to set up a couple of otherwise hard to land skills and ensure maximum damage - Pry Bar, Blowtorch, Rocket Kick, Blunderbuss(melee range). The actual window for CC damage after a magnet pull is pretty short - maybe 0.5s? - so you only get 1 shot at it. If a mirage can dodge after being pulled, you've wasted your CC and your damage. You can't wait a second assuming they'll dodge, because you don't know if they will or not (maybe they're bad. maybe they're out of dodges, maybe they're saving it?) so you have to try for the damage anyway. If you wait to see whether they'll dodge, you've missed your damage window. This is really frustrating because magnet is on a much longer cooldown than Mirage's dodges.

 

Eg. Most CC's on Warrior. You want to Bull's Charge or Shield Bash to set up a long Hundred Blades. You're just never going to get any damage out of Hundred Blades without a CC to lock the opponent in place first. If they can just dodge AFTER you hit them and avoid your HB, you've now wasted 2 skills and they didn't have to make the skillful play of seeing the incoming CC and reacting to it. (There is a lot of skill required here! You need to see the incoming attack, decide whether it's Shield Bash, Bull's Charge, or Headbutt, blind/counter-cc if it's Bash or Headbutt, otherwise block or Dodge. Always dodge if they've got signet of might active or something like that. All in a span of ~0.5s! ). Instead, you get to see the incoming CC, take it to the face, then get even more time to start your (longer) dodge and avoid the follow-up damage.

 

I could keep going for many of the CCs in the game - most of them required to set up damage, basically all of them on longer cooldown than dodge.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

> > >

> > > Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

> > >

> > > If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

> > >

> > > You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

> >

> > Whoa there! You mean to say you adjust your actions to actively play around a game mechanic?! Heresy! Everyone knows that you have to immediately press the damage buttons after landing a CC - that's the only way to win!

>

> Actually, a lot of times you do.

>

> Eg. Magnet on Engineer. This skill's main purpose is to set up a couple of otherwise hard to land skills and ensure maximum damage - Pry Bar, Blowtorch, Rocket Kick, Blunderbuss(melee range). The actual window for CC damage after a magnet pull is pretty short - maybe 0.5s? - so you only get 1 shot at it. If a mirage can dodge after being pulled, you've wasted your CC and your damage. You can't wait a second assuming they'll dodge, because you don't know if they will or not (maybe they're bad. maybe they're out of dodges, maybe they're saving it?) so you have to try for the damage anyway. If you wait to see whether they'll dodge, you've missed your damage window. This is really frustrating because magnet is on a much longer cooldown than Mirage's dodges.

>

> Eg. Most CC's on Warrior. You want to Bull's Charge or Shield Bash to set up a long Hundred Blades. You're just never going to get any damage out of Hundred Blades without a CC to lock the opponent in place first. If they can just dodge AFTER you hit them and avoid your HB, you've now wasted 2 skills and they didn't have to make the skillful play of seeing the incoming CC and reacting to it. (There is a lot of skill required here! You need to see the incoming attack, decide whether it's Shield Bash, Bull's Charge, or Headbutt, blind/counter-cc if it's Bash or Headbutt, otherwise block or Dodge. Always dodge if they've got signet of might active or something like that. All in a span of ~0.5s! ). Instead, you get to see the incoming CC, take it to the face, then get even more time to start your (longer) dodge and avoid the follow-up damage.

>

> I could keep going for many of the CCs in the game - most of them required to set up damage, basically all of them on longer cooldown than dodge.

 

If this is how you view it you are setting up wrong and in a very linear way of thinking. This is part of the problem with the PvP community.

 

You do not blow all your CC when you know your opponent has stability, right? Like wise with the builds you mentioned that rely on those setups, you do not open on a mirage with CC when he has full dodges, unless you are hard reading how they intend to dodge.

 

If you understand the class well enough and their options, you can understand how to out play it. In addition many mirage use their evade’s ambush for offense or to cover skills. In light of that it’s not hard to bait or force out all their evades before you go for a kill set up.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> > >

> > > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> > >

> > > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > > You do for one you do for all-

> > > how about this.

> > > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > > Etc.

> > > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> > >

> >

> > I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

> >

> Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

> Still has less evasion than a thief.

> and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

> What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

> *Lets just nerf them all*

> If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

> No need to be biased right?

> > Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

>

> You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

>

> Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

>

 

Other classes do have effects while CC'd as well, effects that are triggered by a CC, but not nearly on the same degree of frequency in which Mirage can Mirage Cloak while CC'd. I'd agree with your logic if that were not the case.

[Solori.6025]

> @"kappa.2036" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

>

> > What's the issue with nerfing all classes to not do actions while CCd? I'm earnestly curious?

> > If it's wrong then say it's wrong for all. OR. Just admit that you want mesmer removed and you have an earnest bias.

> >

> > Also. I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain that all classes includes mesmer ability to shatter as well. But just in case someone is that slow at getting it. All classes means mesmers ability to shatter...

>

> This would make multiple cc chains OP. WvW will become something unplayable.

>

Thats a terrible excuse and ignores the fact multiple classes have short CD stun break options, much shorter than a lot of the hard CC available and the fact that multiple classes have access to long duration stability or stability with short CDs. Right now very few classes sit during a full CC.

 

Also. If your concern switches to group CC.

If you are being focused by 4+ people ( that are competent) you shouldn't be able to use non stun break skills and get away from coordinated spikes. (That goes double for thief and mes able to port away using non stunbreaks)

 

So honestly CC chains aren't an actual issue.

Good concern I guess? Just not applicable in the current meta with all the aformentioned defenses going around.

 

Why else do you think other classes should use skills not labeled as stunbreaks while hard stunned?

 

Edit: had to add a specification. Dont want people replying with obvious information again.

[coro.3176]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

> > > >

> > > > Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

> > > >

> > > > If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

> > > >

> > > > You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

> > >

> > > Whoa there! You mean to say you adjust your actions to actively play around a game mechanic?! Heresy! Everyone knows that you have to immediately press the damage buttons after landing a CC - that's the only way to win!

> >

> > Actually, a lot of times you do.

> >

> > Eg. Magnet on Engineer. This skill's main purpose is to set up a couple of otherwise hard to land skills and ensure maximum damage - Pry Bar, Blowtorch, Rocket Kick, Blunderbuss(melee range). The actual window for CC damage after a magnet pull is pretty short - maybe 0.5s? - so you only get 1 shot at it. If a mirage can dodge after being pulled, you've wasted your CC and your damage. You can't wait a second assuming they'll dodge, because you don't know if they will or not (maybe they're bad. maybe they're out of dodges, maybe they're saving it?) so you have to try for the damage anyway. If you wait to see whether they'll dodge, you've missed your damage window. This is really frustrating because magnet is on a much longer cooldown than Mirage's dodges.

> >

> > Eg. Most CC's on Warrior. You want to Bull's Charge or Shield Bash to set up a long Hundred Blades. You're just never going to get any damage out of Hundred Blades without a CC to lock the opponent in place first. If they can just dodge AFTER you hit them and avoid your HB, you've now wasted 2 skills and they didn't have to make the skillful play of seeing the incoming CC and reacting to it. (There is a lot of skill required here! You need to see the incoming attack, decide whether it's Shield Bash, Bull's Charge, or Headbutt, blind/counter-cc if it's Bash or Headbutt, otherwise block or Dodge. Always dodge if they've got signet of might active or something like that. All in a span of ~0.5s! ). Instead, you get to see the incoming CC, take it to the face, then get even more time to start your (longer) dodge and avoid the follow-up damage.

> >

> > I could keep going for many of the CCs in the game - most of them required to set up damage, basically all of them on longer cooldown than dodge.

>

> If this is how you view it you are setting up wrong and in a very linear way of thinking. This is part of the problem with the PvP community.

>

> You do not blow all your CC when you know your opponent has stability, right? Like wise with the builds you mentioned that rely on those setups, you do not open on a mirage with CC when he has full dodges, unless you are hard reading how they intend to dodge.

>

> If you understand the class well enough and their options, you can understand how to out play it. In addition many mirage use their evade’s ambush for offense or to cover skills. In light of that it’s not hard to bait or force out all their evades before you go for a kill set up.

 

It is pretty hard to bait out all their dodges (and know that you've done it).

* 2 to start, plus 1 from sigil of energy, plus 1 from rune of adventurer, plus 1 from vigor/food. *yeah, I know.. I'm using WvW values here, but that's what I play most.

 

That's a LOT to bait out, plus the dodges last longer (1s) and proc a not-insignificant reflect every time. AND the dodges don't have as clear of an animation, so you need to be watching carefully. This is difficult when combined with the natural mesmer blinks, detargets, stealths, etc. It's hard to put out enough threats to bait that many dodges while also avoiding the Mirage's counterattacks - another part of the problem by the way. When you force a dodge on other classes, YOU also get a brief 0.75s respite from their counterattacks. When you force a dodge on Mirage, they can attack you while being invuln.

 

But this is all beside the point. No other class lets you avoid damage after you've been hard CCed unless you burn a stunbreak. Avoiding damage by dodging in reaction to an animation takes much more skill than dodging AFTER you've been CCd. This makes Mirage so much more forgiving than core or chrono.

[Stallic.2397]

I love that people told me it's my skill level and not the fact that mirage is over powered. So I switched to my mirage and now I'm trolling/dominating every player I come across.

 

Best part is now I'm getting tons of hate whispers in spvp cause I'm supposedly playing the most over powered class in the game. Go figure!

[Cicada.6298]

+100000000000

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab.

We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough.

We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

 

But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced."