Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[BlackTruth.6813]

-Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential)

-Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right.

-Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games

-Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals.

 

I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game.

[Arekai.5698]

I wish they'd buff power mes so it's viable in spvp.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> > > >

> > > > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > > > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> > > >

> > > > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > > > You do for one you do for all-

> > > > how about this.

> > > > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > > > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > > > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > > > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > > > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > > > Etc.

> > > > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

> > >

> > Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

> > Still has less evasion than a thief.

> > and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

> > What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

> > *Lets just nerf them all*

> > If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

> > No need to be biased right?

> > > Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

> >

> > You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

> >

> > Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

> >

>

> Other classes do have effects while CC'd as well, effects that are triggered by a CC, but not nearly on the same degree of frequency in which Mirage can Mirage Cloak while CC'd. I'd agree with your logic if that were not the case.

 

Yes definitely. I agree with this. KEYWORD is FREQUENCY and EFFECTIVENESS.

 

We can have a civil discussion but DO NOT DEFLECT to a lesser sin if your sin is a lot graver.

[Safandula.8723]

Another "Mesmer op" thread lul. If I had a game and would see something like that on forum, I would do some changes I guess

[apharma.3741]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

> We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

> We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab.

> We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough.

> We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

>

> But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced."

 

Someone call 911, there's been a savage murder here.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed"

 

That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment.

[Solori.6025]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. **Every other class has suffered it (except warrior).**

 

W H A T?

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential)

> -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right.

> -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games

> -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals.

>

> I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game.

 

Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point.

 

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed"

>

> That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment.

 

Oh good, I forgot that eye for an eye was the best way to balance things because it's exactly how justice systems in society work too. Because it's such a good idea. Just like this idea, which is so good.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> * We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

> * We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

> * We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.

> * We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.

> * We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.

> * We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

>

> But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

>

> PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. **I almost never get a kill because they run away first**

 

Pointing finger at Mesmer again??

Making exceptions?

 

Thief, warrior, ranger not included?

 


 

[Ovark.2514]

OP didn't even touch on the MOST frustrating thing about it: The CONSTANT blindness!

[Shao.7236]

I was actually playing CC warrior for fun not long ago with hammer, I pretty much always landed my punishes just right. He just had all the means to escape any of my utility despite my good timing on his vulnerable frames. Jaunt, Jaunt, Daze, Daze, Daze, Blind, Blind, Blind, Mirage Cloak, Mirage Cloak, Mirage Cloak, Mirage Cloak, Mirage Cloak, Mirage Cloak, Mirage Cloak.

 

There's no room for mistake/counterplay if you're competent. All at the same time I had to deal with constant damage output of his and after 1 minute, I finally gave in.

[BadMed.3846]

Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are...

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are...

 

Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made

[Daishi.6027]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> It is pretty hard to bait out all their dodges (and know that you've done it).

> * 2 to start, plus 1 from sigil of energy, plus 1 from rune of adventurer, plus 1 from vigor/food. *yeah, I know.. I'm using WvW values here, but that's what I play most.

>

> That's a LOT to bait out, plus the dodges last longer (1s) and proc a not-insignificant reflect every time. AND the dodges don't have as clear of an animation, so you need to be watching carefully. This is difficult when combined with the natural mesmer blinks, detargets, stealths, etc. It's hard to put out enough threats to bait that many dodges while also avoiding the Mirage's counterattacks - another part of the problem by the way. When you force a dodge on other classes, YOU also get a brief 0.75s respite from their counterattacks. When you force a dodge on Mirage, they can attack you while being invuln.

>

> But this is all beside the point. No other class lets you avoid damage after you've been hard CCed unless you burn a stunbreak. Avoiding damage by dodging in reaction to an animation takes much more skill than dodging AFTER you've been CCd. This makes Mirage so much more forgiving than core or chrono.

 

I beg to differ. Granted it is not the easiest thing in the world; if it was no one would be complaining. However, I disagree that it is that difficult to see. Maybe this is my bias in being a player who has always taken a great pleasure in killing mesmers, especially egotistical condi mirages since PoF; But please keep in mind this is the PvP forums, and WvW numbers **do not apply**. (If you have problems with how WvW balances bring it up there. I've always been of the opinion that WvW should follow PvPs rules because it is more balanced, but this is not the place for that discussion, and it's been made clear since release WvW was never supposed to be "balanced" for matchups. Everyone should have been aware of what they signed up for before getting involved with WvW.) Also if I'm able to learn it, I'm fairly certain most others can too.

 

Mirage has base 2, +1 form **double** energy, 1/2 from adventure if they even run it, and vigor. Any other build with vigor access can achieve this, and again mirages often use these as supplemental attacks (like cover condis). This is not to much to bait out, or watch for and once you get the hang of it, it becomes second nature.

 

They need to pick between reflects which is better vs some builds than others, or Blinds on shatter which can both increase their over all damage because of confusion synergy. The balance of evasive mirror can be called into question, 2 seconds after a 1 second dodge is maybe a bit much. But personally I prefer reflects than them taking blind/confusion/interrupt synergy. Either way this is not something everyone uses and balance of evasive mirror should be talked about separately from mirage cloak.

 

But getting to the meat of the "No other class can dodge while CCed". Most other classes have a way to trivialize stuns and make a safer trade. Yes, no other class can just dodge; however, at the same time not every class can perma stealth like a deadeye, or perma dodge like daredevil (which even with 1s mirage cloak DD still has more active evade frames, and more on demand uses.) Not every class can ignore Line of Sight like Rev, Guard, and Thief. Not every class can cover an entire point in big AoE like Scourge and Holo. Not every class has Passive safety nets like Warrior and Engie... and for Mirage unless you're going chaos line you have less stability than a lot of the roster, and lack the same "port away" options given to thief, or spin away and heal up like ele. Or maybe the mirage did do go chaos line, then they are lacking a ton of damage.

 

It is more reactionary sure, and this forces people to play differently, but nothing is done in a vacuum and the over all usage ends up being about on par. This is only more forgiving against opponents who do not think about how they are approaching their target. Because when you start covering and starving options, you see just how average it really is.

 

As for the "0.75s respite" What attacks are mirage's doing that you find problematic? The ambushes themselves? Or the other weapon skills? Because other than trying to survive the travel time of shatters, or the phantasms cast times that were historically a giant "burst me now" sign I hardly see the use.

If staff: Phase retreat, Chaos armor, and Chaos storm are pretty pointless to cover.

If scepter: You don't want to evade during counter, and it wont do to much vs confusing images (which honestly I'd rather just out range if possible).

If sword: What are you covering illusionary leap? Maybe stacking it over blurred frenzy? Or Offhand sword's counter?

The list goes on.

If Ambushes are what you consider an issue, I agree in regards to Condi Mirage's output problem. But this is less of a mirage cloak problem; Power mirage and it's interactions with ambushes, while not over performing should be a good enough control group for that basis.

 

Which yeah CONDI mirage needs to be nerfed properly. Not Mirage cloak, not Ambushes, not jaunts (although I'd be down to ditch the confusion) nothing to do with power specs; simply Condi's output because yes it is to high. Mirage cloak can be learned and played around.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > > > > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > > > > > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > > > > > > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > > > > > > You do for one you do for all-

> > > > > > > how about this.

> > > > > > > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > > > > > > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > > > > > > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > > > > > > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > > > > > > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > > > > > > Etc.

> > > > > > > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

> > > > > Still has less evasion than a thief.

> > > > > and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

> > > > > What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

> > > > > *Lets just nerf them all*

> > > > > If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

> > > > > No need to be biased right?

> > > > > > Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > No other class can cast while dodging nor can they dodge a burst after being stunned.

> > > > (keywords being dodge and dodging)

> > > >

> > > Obviously, don't know where you got that they couldn't.

> > > Try keeping up with classes next time I.

> >

> > How is that relevant to... anything?

> >

> > edit: nvm that must have been your mistake in posting as there is something in context you posted later where you showed exactly what I was reffering too..

> >

> > and yes I understand, Why wouldn't I when I was able to see strait through you to begin with?

> >

> >

>

> Straight *

>

> Dont know what you saw through as you are talking about something I am not. As was mentioned in my previous reply and was elaborated ....

> Must have been your mistake...

 

definitely my mistake, I thought you were being coy by your statement of not knowing the issue with Mirage Cloak. I had absolutely no idea, at all, that you were genuine about that.

if pretending to be autocorrect is fun to you, heres a few for ya:

grey or gray? ??

color or colour?

Flavor or Flavour?

Honor or Honour?

 

fun and games aside, Im really sorry about earlier, I just thought you were pretending not to know how Mirage Cloak works which is what your post was implying.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential)

> > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right.

> > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games

> > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals.

> >

> > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game.

>

> Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point.

> (...)

 

Condi mirage (current metabuild) has:

 

Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range

Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected)

Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range

Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range

[staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.]

 

S/D ele has:

 

Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range

Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range

 

Apart from that, I just sign this:

 

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are...

>

> Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made

 

 

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential)

> > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right.

> > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games

> > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals.

> >

> > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game.

>

> Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point.

>

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed"

> >

> > That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment.

>

> Oh good, I forgot that eye for an eye was the best way to balance things because it's exactly how justice systems in society work too. Because it's such a good idea. Just like this idea, which is so good.

 

Not sure if sarcasm or not...

 

You commit crime, you go to jail.

You steal, you have time stolen.

You take a life, you spend a life.

 

 

Balance... Well, if its balanced its because it weighs evenly right? if you were to nerf the weight on one side, it wouldnt be balanced anymore would it?

 

Thats just in case it was sarcasm, hard to tell on these forums lately, cant even give someone credit for thier intelligence without them being offended lol

[BadMed.3846]

Look. Simple solution is to get rid of the elite spec altogether. Easy as.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential)

> > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right.

> > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games

> > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals.

> > >

> > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game.

> >

> > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point.

> > (...)

>

> Condi mirage (current metabuild) has:

>

> Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range

> Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 600 range

> Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range

> Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range

> [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.]

>

> S/D ele has:

>

> Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range

> Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range

>

> Apart from that, I just sign this:

 

Jaunt is 450 units.

 

Phase Retreat's blink range is 600. It's cooldown is 10 units base, 8 seconds traited.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential)

> > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right.

> > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games

> > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals.

> > > >

> > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game.

> > >

> > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point.

> > > (...)

> >

> > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has:

> >

> > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range

> > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 600 range

> > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range

> > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range

> > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.]

> >

> > S/D ele has:

> >

> > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range

> > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range

> >

> > Apart from that, I just sign this:

>

> Jaunt is 450 units.

>

> Phase Retreat's blink range is 600. It's cooldown is 10 units base, 8 seconds traited.

 

My bad. :smiley: And corrected!

 

Meta condi mirage currently has staff traited with chaos. Axe too.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Regarding shadowsteps I would remove them all. Shadowsteps have no place in a serious pvp game, it makes the whole position talk fly through the window.

As I said in some other thread ANet was warned about it, by the community, when GW Factions was released. But they've taken the child approach, covered their ears while singing "I can't hear you".

[apharma.3741]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed"

>

> That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment.

 

Moa, Portal, Condi Chrono, core mesmer all would say "Hi" but the worms have already left them as mere skeletons of meta past. While I may get frustrated by the balance decisions leaving things like Soulbeast in the state it's in for so long (also holo/Rev in WvW) and may at times think "I hope this gets nerfed so hard they walk funny for a year" I'm at least rational enough to know it's not the right course of action and should never vouch for it.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

> We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

> We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab.

> We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough.

> We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

>

> But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced."

 

Hah, don't strain yourself trying to be ironic. Perma swiftness TOO POWERFUL. Better watch out for those 2 evades and uhh... no teleports.

 

Yes, holo is powerful, and it should be nerfed (I say this as an engi main). But it's not the biggest problem in the room either.

 

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > * We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

> > * We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

> > * We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.

> > * We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.

> > * We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.

> > * We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

> >

> > But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

> >

> > PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. **I almost never get a kill because they run away first**

>

> Pointing finger at Mesmer again??

> Making exceptions?

>

> Thief, warrior, ranger not included?

>

> 

>

 

Hey. Hey buddy. You need to understand what "tu qoque" is and why it's a bad argument. Also looking at you @"Lincolnbeard.1735" .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

 

Basically, pointing out issues with other classes doesn't absolve condi mirage of its problems. It is by and far away the greatest overperformer in the current meta. Is holo powerful? Yep. Is soulbeast powerful? Yep. And those problems should be addressed too, but they're not relevant to this discussion.

 

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed"

> >

> > That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment.

>

> Moa, Portal, Condi Chrono, core mesmer all would say "Hi" but the worms have already left them as mere skeletons of meta past. While I may get frustrated by the balance decisions leaving things like Soulbeast in the state it's in for so long (also holo/Rev in WvW) and may at times think "I hope this gets nerfed so hard they walk funny for a year" I'm at least rational enough to know it's not the right course of action and should never vouch for it.

 

Thank you. Nobody should ever vouch for something to be nerfed to the point of uselessness. If you've had it happen to your favorite class (IE Engineer Turrets still mostly useless, took years to bring them back to this level of functionality), you'd not want it to happen to others.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

bUT ThEy DoNt do ToP dPS drrrrrr - only argument I've seen by mirage mains.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

> > We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

> > We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab.

> > We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough.

> > We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

> >

> > But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced."

>

> Hah, don't strain yourself trying to be ironic. Perma swiftness TOO POWERFUL. Better watch out for those 2 evades and uhh... no teleports.

>

> Yes, holo is powerful, and it should be nerfed (I say this as an engi main). But it's not the biggest problem in the room either.

 

Who would have thought perma swiftness allows to escape better than a profession without any swiftness access! Oh you coveniently forgot perma-vigor...and leaps.

No, the biggest problem is sb.

 

But I find rather curious that you playing quoting you "conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage" complain about a profession who is countered by yours.

So if mirage is op and countered by holo, that makes holo...?!