Simonoly.4352 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 It's just the condi burst of axe + shatter combo that is over performing. Other things are manageable if you're willing to engage with the mechanics and alter playstyle away from a rote skill rotation to something more reactive. Power Mirage has access to most of the same things, but it's not relevant in PvP because the damage is not as relentless as condi Mirage. Power Mirage also just doesn't really stack up that well against Herald, Thief and Soulbeast in terms of what a team wants. I'd be interested to see where Mirage goes when condi burst is finally addressed, especially now that Portal is largely irrelevant. You'll probably see more holosmiths and Guardians entering the meta again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > (...) > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > S/D ele has: > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > (...) > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > (...) > > > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. > > You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? > > It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. And then you went on to pick the two classes which are completely not about mobility. And I'll say the same thing I say to everyone 'all the stealth' pundits. There's 5 seconds of stealth on Mirage. Maybe 8. If you can't play around 5 seconds of stealth you need to practice. Yes, so many teleports, half of which just put you right next to your opponent with no (or 'little') variation. And please don't throw Jaunt at me, it's festering corpse is already sad enough to look at. You can nerf mobility or you can nerf damage, pick one. Tbh I've also seen you complain about the Staff Ambush so I doubt this will go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed" > > > > > > That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment. > > > > Oh good, I forgot that eye for an eye was the best way to balance things because it's exactly how justice systems in society work too. Because it's such a good idea. Just like this idea, which is so good. > > Not sure if sarcasm or not... > > You commit crime, you go to jail. > You steal, you have time stolen. > You take a life, you spend a life. > > > Balance... Well, if its balanced its because it weighs evenly right? if you were to nerf the weight on one side, it wouldnt be balanced anymore would it? > > Thats just in case it was sarcasm, hard to tell on these forums lately, cant even give someone credit for thier intelligence without them being offended lol That's not what eye for an eye is. You're just framing it that way to look like it. Many times someone commits a crime they don't go to jail, don't pay a fine or have really any noticeable repercussions. Eye for an eye for stealing would just letting the victim steal from someone who stole from them or just revenge murder in the case of murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. > > > > You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? > > > > It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. > > And then you went on to pick the two classes which are completely not about mobility. And I'll say the same thing I say to everyone 'all the stealth' pundits. There's 5 seconds of stealth on Mirage. Maybe 8. If you can't play around 5 seconds of stealth you need to practice. Yes, so many teleports, half of which just put you right next to your opponent with no (or 'little') variation. And please don't throw Jaunt at me, it's festering corpse is already sad enough to look at. > > You can nerf mobility or you can nerf damage, pick one. Tbh I've also seen you complain about the Staff Ambush so I doubt this will go anywhere. Point out the context where I complained about staff ambush. Please, go for it. Maybe you reread the context and understand. And I did write exactly that and that is what the OP complains about. Condi mirage can keep mobility, as long as they would have to decide for either damage or sustain (a bit). It is not the damage, it is not the sustain, it is not the mobility. It is all things combined. I would love to see some constructive suggestions in the "balance wishlist" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > It is pretty hard to bait out all their dodges (and know that you've done it). > > * 2 to start, plus 1 from sigil of energy, plus 1 from rune of adventurer, plus 1 from vigor/food. *yeah, I know.. I'm using WvW values here, but that's what I play most. > > > > That's a LOT to bait out, plus the dodges last longer (1s) and proc a not-insignificant reflect every time. AND the dodges don't have as clear of an animation, so you need to be watching carefully. This is difficult when combined with the natural mesmer blinks, detargets, stealths, etc. It's hard to put out enough threats to bait that many dodges while also avoiding the Mirage's counterattacks - another part of the problem by the way. When you force a dodge on other classes, YOU also get a brief 0.75s respite from their counterattacks. When you force a dodge on Mirage, they can attack you while being invuln. > > > > But this is all beside the point. No other class lets you avoid damage after you've been hard CCed unless you burn a stunbreak. Avoiding damage by dodging in reaction to an animation takes much more skill than dodging AFTER you've been CCd. This makes Mirage so much more forgiving than core or chrono. > > I beg to differ. Granted it is not the easiest thing in the world; if it was no one would be complaining. However, I disagree that it is that difficult to see. Maybe this is my bias in being a player who has always taken a great pleasure in killing mesmers, especially egotistical condi mirages since PoF; But please keep in mind this is the PvP forums, and WvW numbers **do not apply**. (If you have problems with how WvW balances bring it up there. I've always been of the opinion that WvW should follow PvPs rules because it is more balanced, but this is not the place for that discussion, and it's been made clear since release WvW was never supposed to be "balanced" for matchups. Everyone should have been aware of what they signed up for before getting involved with WvW.) Also if I'm able to learn it, I'm fairly certain most others can too. > > Mirage has base 2, +1 form **double** energy, 1/2 from adventure if they even run it, and vigor. Any other build with vigor access can achieve this, and again mirages often use these as supplemental attacks (like cover condis). This is not to much to bait out, or watch for and once you get the hang of it, it becomes second nature. > > They need to pick between reflects which is better vs some builds than others, or Blinds on shatter which can both increase their over all damage because of confusion synergy. The balance of evasive mirror can be called into question, 2 seconds after a 1 second dodge is maybe a bit much. But personally I prefer reflects than them taking blind/confusion/interrupt synergy. Either way this is not something everyone uses and balance of evasive mirror should be talked about separately from mirage cloak. > > But getting to the meat of the "No other class can dodge while CCed". Most other classes have a way to trivialize stuns and make a safer trade. Yes, no other class can just dodge; however, at the same time not every class can perma stealth like a deadeye, or perma dodge like daredevil (which even with 1s mirage cloak DD still has more active evade frames, and more on demand uses.) Not every class can ignore Line of Sight like Rev, Guard, and Thief. Not every class can cover an entire point in big AoE like Scourge and Holo. Not every class has Passive safety nets like Warrior and Engie... and for Mirage unless you're going chaos line you have less stability than a lot of the roster, and lack the same "port away" options given to thief, or spin away and heal up like ele. Or maybe the mirage did do go chaos line, then they are lacking a ton of damage. > > It is more reactionary sure, and this forces people to play differently, but nothing is done in a vacuum and the over all usage ends up being about on par. This is only more forgiving against opponents who do not think about how they are approaching their target. Because when you start covering and starving options, you see just how average it really is. > > As for the "0.75s respite" What attacks are mirage's doing that you find problematic? The ambushes themselves? Or the other weapon skills? Because other than trying to survive the travel time of shatters, or the phantasms cast times that were historically a giant "burst me now" sign I hardly see the use. > If staff: Phase retreat, Chaos armor, and Chaos storm are pretty pointless to cover. > If scepter: You don't want to evade during counter, and it wont do to much vs confusing images (which honestly I'd rather just out range if possible). > If sword: What are you covering illusionary leap? Maybe stacking it over blurred frenzy? Or Offhand sword's counter? > The list goes on. > If Ambushes are what you consider an issue, I agree in regards to Condi Mirage's output problem. But this is less of a mirage cloak problem; Power mirage and it's interactions with ambushes, while not over performing should be a good enough control group for that basis. > > Which yeah CONDI mirage needs to be nerfed properly. Not Mirage cloak, not Ambushes, not jaunts (although I'd be down to ditch the confusion) nothing to do with power specs; simply Condi's output because yes it is to high. Mirage cloak can be learned and played around. I see your points, these mechanics do exist on these other classes in some capacity but you have to take into consideration, which I posted earlier in the thread in response to another, that it doesn't matter if it shares a similar effect to other skills in use (technically speaking) it is that it is so readily available so frequently during combat. These effects or skills you reference that in some way trivialize stuns or allow people to make safer trades are on much longer cooldowns than the Mirage's ability to Mirage Cloak while CC'd and this is all paired with all of the Mirages other defenses (yes I'm aware of the lack of stability). I think the lowest ICD I've seen on traits that have an effect triggered by getting CC'd is 30 seconds and a Mirage being able to Mirage Cloak while CC'd is under 10 seconds at least, especially with Vigor which they tend to have active frequently. That is the problem with that effect, it is that they can activate it themselves and on such a frequent basis that it generates an issue when you are actually, *finally*, able to catch them in a CC after timing it just right so it actually lands and they don't stunbreak it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > > > > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > > > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > > > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > > > > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > > > > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > > > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. > > > > > > You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? > > > > > > It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. > > > > And then you went on to pick the two classes which are completely not about mobility. And I'll say the same thing I say to everyone 'all the stealth' pundits. There's 5 seconds of stealth on Mirage. Maybe 8. If you can't play around 5 seconds of stealth you need to practice. Yes, so many teleports, half of which just put you right next to your opponent with no (or 'little') variation. And please don't throw Jaunt at me, it's festering corpse is already sad enough to look at. > > > > You can nerf mobility or you can nerf damage, pick one. Tbh I've also seen you complain about the Staff Ambush so I doubt this will go anywhere. > > Point out the context where I complained about staff ambush. Please, go for it. Maybe you reread the context and understand. > > And I did write exactly that and that is what the OP complains about. Condi mirage can keep mobility, as long as they would have to decide for either damage or sustain (a bit). It is not the damage, it is not the sustain, it is not the mobility. It is all things combined. > > I would love to see some constructive suggestions in the "balance wishlist" thread. It's in Yannirs balance thread iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > > > > > > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > > > > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > > > > > > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > > > > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. > > > > > > > > You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? > > > > > > > > It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. > > > > > > And then you went on to pick the two classes which are completely not about mobility. And I'll say the same thing I say to everyone 'all the stealth' pundits. There's 5 seconds of stealth on Mirage. Maybe 8. If you can't play around 5 seconds of stealth you need to practice. Yes, so many teleports, half of which just put you right next to your opponent with no (or 'little') variation. And please don't throw Jaunt at me, it's festering corpse is already sad enough to look at. > > > > > > You can nerf mobility or you can nerf damage, pick one. Tbh I've also seen you complain about the Staff Ambush so I doubt this will go anywhere. > > > > Point out the context where I complained about staff ambush. Please, go for it. Maybe you reread the context and understand. > > > > And I did write exactly that and that is what the OP complains about. Condi mirage can keep mobility, as long as they would have to decide for either damage or sustain (a bit). It is not the damage, it is not the sustain, it is not the mobility. It is all things combined. > > > > I would love to see some constructive suggestions in the "balance wishlist" thread. > > It's in Yannirs balance thread iirc. Yes, I know. Please, go and reread. Then come back. Ah, nevermind, I will quote it for you. > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > (...) > The cursive ones are only for a general condi application AND condi cleanse tune down! (...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > > > > > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > > > > > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > > > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. > > > > > > > > > > You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? > > > > > > > > > > It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. > > > > > > > > And then you went on to pick the two classes which are completely not about mobility. And I'll say the same thing I say to everyone 'all the stealth' pundits. There's 5 seconds of stealth on Mirage. Maybe 8. If you can't play around 5 seconds of stealth you need to practice. Yes, so many teleports, half of which just put you right next to your opponent with no (or 'little') variation. And please don't throw Jaunt at me, it's festering corpse is already sad enough to look at. > > > > > > > > You can nerf mobility or you can nerf damage, pick one. Tbh I've also seen you complain about the Staff Ambush so I doubt this will go anywhere. > > > > > > Point out the context where I complained about staff ambush. Please, go for it. Maybe you reread the context and understand. > > > > > > And I did write exactly that and that is what the OP complains about. Condi mirage can keep mobility, as long as they would have to decide for either damage or sustain (a bit). It is not the damage, it is not the sustain, it is not the mobility. It is all things combined. > > > > > > I would love to see some constructive suggestions in the "balance wishlist" thread. > > > > It's in Yannirs balance thread iirc. > > Yes, I know. Please, go and reread. Then come back. > > Ah, nevermind, I will quote it for you. > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > (...) > > The cursive ones are only for a general condi application AND condi cleanse tune down! (...) Ah, my mistake then. I skimmed as that thread is a lot of walls anyway, was much easier to just go over the bullet points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > > > > > > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > > > > > > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > > > > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. > > > > > > > > > > And then you went on to pick the two classes which are completely not about mobility. And I'll say the same thing I say to everyone 'all the stealth' pundits. There's 5 seconds of stealth on Mirage. Maybe 8. If you can't play around 5 seconds of stealth you need to practice. Yes, so many teleports, half of which just put you right next to your opponent with no (or 'little') variation. And please don't throw Jaunt at me, it's festering corpse is already sad enough to look at. > > > > > > > > > > You can nerf mobility or you can nerf damage, pick one. Tbh I've also seen you complain about the Staff Ambush so I doubt this will go anywhere. > > > > > > > > Point out the context where I complained about staff ambush. Please, go for it. Maybe you reread the context and understand. > > > > > > > > And I did write exactly that and that is what the OP complains about. Condi mirage can keep mobility, as long as they would have to decide for either damage or sustain (a bit). It is not the damage, it is not the sustain, it is not the mobility. It is all things combined. > > > > > > > > I would love to see some constructive suggestions in the "balance wishlist" thread. > > > > > > It's in Yannirs balance thread iirc. > > > > Yes, I know. Please, go and reread. Then come back. > > > > Ah, nevermind, I will quote it for you. > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > (...) > > > The cursive ones are only for a general condi application AND condi cleanse tune down! (...) > > Ah, my mistake then. I skimmed as that thread is a lot of walls anyway, was much easier to just go over the bullet points. All good, I admit, I could've made it clearer. :smile: I just wish they would tune down conditions and clears... but that will probably remain a wish... I am okay with mesmer having so many teleports. If they would not have both sustain and damage. That goes for other classes too, of course, but thief for example - the one still dominating mobility - has much much less sustain (apart from daggerstorm lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > > > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > > > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > > > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi mirage (current metabuild) has: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blink (24s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > > > > Jaunt (30s CD/2x) - 450 range (€: corrected) > > > > > > > > > Illusionary Ambush (20s CD) - 1200 range > > > > > > > > > Axes of Symmetry (8s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > > [staff 2 (8s CD) - like 400ish range? Doesn't really count, it used to be a good measure to detect great mesmers, but it is not needed anymore for proper kiting.] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S/D ele has: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lightning Flash (40s CD) - 900 range > > > > > > > > > Polaric Leap (15s CD) - 600 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apart from that, I just sign this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf Mirage into the ground. Where the rest of us already are... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf all professions to the ground all together; no exception should be made > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on cherry picking a single class, that's so ingenuous of you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want me to do it with core guard? Necro? Rev with only offensive teleports, nothing like LF or Blink? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not that they have so many teleports - thief has just as many -, but the issue is packing all these in a non-+1-build. In a duelist with great sustain and great damage. Why does a duelist need to have so many teleports and stealth? Why does a +1 build need so much sustain? It only lacks team support, all other roles can (kind of) filled with condi mirage - holo too, to some extend, but it lacks for example the teleports and does not have the same stealth access. > > > > > > > > > > > > And then you went on to pick the two classes which are completely not about mobility. And I'll say the same thing I say to everyone 'all the stealth' pundits. There's 5 seconds of stealth on Mirage. Maybe 8. If you can't play around 5 seconds of stealth you need to practice. Yes, so many teleports, half of which just put you right next to your opponent with no (or 'little') variation. And please don't throw Jaunt at me, it's festering corpse is already sad enough to look at. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can nerf mobility or you can nerf damage, pick one. Tbh I've also seen you complain about the Staff Ambush so I doubt this will go anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > Point out the context where I complained about staff ambush. Please, go for it. Maybe you reread the context and understand. > > > > > > > > > > And I did write exactly that and that is what the OP complains about. Condi mirage can keep mobility, as long as they would have to decide for either damage or sustain (a bit). It is not the damage, it is not the sustain, it is not the mobility. It is all things combined. > > > > > > > > > > I would love to see some constructive suggestions in the "balance wishlist" thread. > > > > > > > > It's in Yannirs balance thread iirc. > > > > > > Yes, I know. Please, go and reread. Then come back. > > > > > > Ah, nevermind, I will quote it for you. > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > (...) > > > > The cursive ones are only for a general condi application AND condi cleanse tune down! (...) > > > > Ah, my mistake then. I skimmed as that thread is a lot of walls anyway, was much easier to just go over the bullet points. > > All good, I admit, I could've made it clearer. :smile: I just wish they would tune down conditions and clears... but that will probably remain a wish... > > I am okay with mesmer having so many teleports. If they would not have both sustain and damage. That goes for other classes too, of course, but thief for example - the one still dominating mobility - has much much less sustain (apart from daggerstorm lol). I agree, having everything be ramped up to 1000 all the time is honestly boring. There's no strategy when fighting aside from 'kill my opponent faster than they kill me or run away'. 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sephiroth.4217 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed" > > > > > > > > That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment. > > > > > > Oh good, I forgot that eye for an eye was the best way to balance things because it's exactly how justice systems in society work too. Because it's such a good idea. Just like this idea, which is so good. > > > > Not sure if sarcasm or not... > > > > You commit crime, you go to jail. > > You steal, you have time stolen. > > You take a life, you spend a life. > > > > > > Balance... Well, if its balanced its because it weighs evenly right? if you were to nerf the weight on one side, it wouldnt be balanced anymore would it? > > > > Thats just in case it was sarcasm, hard to tell on these forums lately, cant even give someone credit for thier intelligence without them being offended lol > > That's not what eye for an eye is. You're just framing it that way to look like it. Many times someone commits a crime they don't go to jail, don't pay a fine or have really any noticeable repercussions. Eye for an eye for stealing would just letting the victim steal from someone who stole from them or just revenge murder in the case of murder. Which happens all the time.. also kudos if you can get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity. > > > We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon. > > > We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab. > > > We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough. > > > We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort. > > > > > > But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced." > > > > Hah, don't strain yourself trying to be ironic. Perma swiftness TOO POWERFUL. Better watch out for those 2 evades and uhh... no teleports. > > > > Yes, holo is powerful, and it should be nerfed (I say this as an engi main). But it's not the biggest problem in the room either. > > Who would have thought perma swiftness allows to escape better than a profession without any swiftness access! Oh you coveniently forgot perma-vigor...and leaps. > No, the biggest problem is sb. > > But I find rather curious that you playing quoting you "conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage" complain about a profession who is countered by yours. > So if mirage is op and countered by holo, that makes holo...?! 1. Most classes have access to perma-swiftness, except guardian or necro. This is generally a moot point in most competitive matches. 2. Again, what you're talking about is [irrelevant to the discussion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism "irrelevant to the discussion"), because this thread is focused on **condi mirage**. I hope the thread title isn't unclear. 3. Don't be obtuse about what I wrote. I said my build was designed SPECIFICALLY to counter condi mirage, and even then, it only does enough to scare them off. I can still be murdered by them if I don't play it just right, and it only works as a counter in 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > > You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed" > > > > > > > > > > That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment. > > > > > > > > Oh good, I forgot that eye for an eye was the best way to balance things because it's exactly how justice systems in society work too. Because it's such a good idea. Just like this idea, which is so good. > > > > > > Not sure if sarcasm or not... > > > > > > You commit crime, you go to jail. > > > You steal, you have time stolen. > > > You take a life, you spend a life. > > > > > > > > > Balance... Well, if its balanced its because it weighs evenly right? if you were to nerf the weight on one side, it wouldnt be balanced anymore would it? > > > > > > Thats just in case it was sarcasm, hard to tell on these forums lately, cant even give someone credit for thier intelligence without them being offended lol > > > > That's not what eye for an eye is. You're just framing it that way to look like it. Many times someone commits a crime they don't go to jail, don't pay a fine or have really any noticeable repercussions. Eye for an eye for stealing would just letting the victim steal from someone who stole from them or just revenge murder in the case of murder. > > Which happens all the time.. > > also kudos if you can get away with it. The point is I was referencing justice systems which use punishment do not administer them by the eye for an eye logic. Are you just trying to be contentious because you can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > -Z-axis teleport (meaning disgusting disengage/rotation potential) > > > > > > -Evade Spam and can bait your cds while doing so. Evades are UNCOUNTABLE or UNPUNISHABLE borderline if played right. > > > > > > -Stealth disengage is intensely good for disengages and decap mind games > > > > > > -Okay damage even with celestial amulet, so it can actually tank hits too with Prismatic Understanding. Actually it won't even need the Chaos line to survive either. But like -You could use w/e amulet you want. Hell you could probably have no amulet and be fine just because of how hard your evade tilts casuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry one of it has to go. I don't mind that it does damage personally, more damage is great for the game. > > > > > > > > > > Every class with a shadowstep/teleport has a z-axis teleport, get off that point. > > > > > > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > > > You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed" > > > > > > > > > > > > That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment. > > > > > > > > > > Oh good, I forgot that eye for an eye was the best way to balance things because it's exactly how justice systems in society work too. Because it's such a good idea. Just like this idea, which is so good. > > > > > > > > Not sure if sarcasm or not... > > > > > > > > You commit crime, you go to jail. > > > > You steal, you have time stolen. > > > > You take a life, you spend a life. > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance... Well, if its balanced its because it weighs evenly right? if you were to nerf the weight on one side, it wouldnt be balanced anymore would it? > > > > > > > > Thats just in case it was sarcasm, hard to tell on these forums lately, cant even give someone credit for thier intelligence without them being offended lol > > > > > > That's not what eye for an eye is. You're just framing it that way to look like it. Many times someone commits a crime they don't go to jail, don't pay a fine or have really any noticeable repercussions. Eye for an eye for stealing would just letting the victim steal from someone who stole from them or just revenge murder in the case of murder. > > > > Which happens all the time.. > > > > also kudos if you can get away with it. > > The point is I was referencing justice systems which use punishment do not administer them by the eye for an eye logic. Are you just trying to be contentious because you can? I get your point, but time is more valueable than anything. Take a life, spend a life... Steal and have time stolen... This is where the cup half full or half empty applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoSpyro.1780 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"BadMed.3846" said: > Simple solution is to get rid of the elite spec altogether I love you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"phokus.8934" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. Why not make everyone else's evade frame last 1s then? Also give every other class the ability to rez and cast while evading ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"phokus.8934" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. No, it wasn't terrible. And it won't be terrible now, though the tears will rain from the sky as Mirage mains have to re-adjust to the fair evade frames. It was players just starting a new playstyle and learning it. Considering you gain *superspeed* while in Mirage Cloak, the distance is equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity. > > > > We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon. > > > > We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab. > > > > We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough. > > > > We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort. > > > > > > > > But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced." > > > > > > Hah, don't strain yourself trying to be ironic. Perma swiftness TOO POWERFUL. Better watch out for those 2 evades and uhh... no teleports. > > > > > > Yes, holo is powerful, and it should be nerfed (I say this as an engi main). But it's not the biggest problem in the room either. > > > > Who would have thought perma swiftness allows to escape better than a profession without any swiftness access! Oh you coveniently forgot perma-vigor...and leaps. > > No, the biggest problem is sb. > > > > But I find rather curious that you playing quoting you "conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage" complain about a profession who is countered by yours. > > So if mirage is op and countered by holo, that makes holo...?! > > 1. Most classes have access to perma-swiftness, except guardian or necro. This is generally a moot point in most competitive matches. > 2. Again, what you're talking about is [irrelevant to the discussion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism "irrelevant to the discussion"), because this thread is focused on **condi mirage**. I hope the thread title isn't unclear. > 3. Don't be obtuse about what I wrote. I said my build was designed SPECIFICALLY to counter condi mirage, and even then, it only does enough to scare them off. I can still be murdered by them if I don't play it just right, and it only works as a counter in 1v1. Please do tell me how can I get perma-swiftness on mirage. Oh but I know it is about condi mirage like a dozen other threads on pvp forums, just doing a comparison between condi mirage and holo. Conv holo counters mirage, no need to design a build specifically, and if you scare them off, you won. Like every other profession on game, you don't play right you lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > No, it wasn't terrible. And it won't be terrible now, though the tears will rain from the sky as Mirage mains have to re-adjust to the fair evade frames. It was players just starting a new playstyle and learning it. Considering you gain *superspeed* while in Mirage Cloak, the distance is equal. So because this is a game with more than just PvP, the .75 dodge was especially terrible in PvE where lingering aoe's and deathspots exist and .75 seconds of superspeed was not enough to get out of them in time without taking heavy damage or dying. Thus 1 second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > > > No, it wasn't terrible. And it won't be terrible now, though the tears will rain from the sky as Mirage mains have to re-adjust to the fair evade frames. It was players just starting a new playstyle and learning it. Considering you gain *superspeed* while in Mirage Cloak, the distance is equal. > > So because this is a game with more than just PvP, the .75 dodge was especially terrible in PvE where lingering aoe's and deathspots exist and .75 seconds of superspeed was not enough to get out of them in time without taking heavy damage or dying. Thus 1 second. .75s Normal dodge = 300 units. .75s Superspeed in combat = 300 units. ????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > No, it wasn't terrible. Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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