mortrialus.3062 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Daishi.6027" said: > As for the "0.75s respite" What attacks are mirage's doing that you find problematic? The ambushes themselves? Or the other weapon skills? Because other than trying to survive the travel time of shatters, or the phantasms cast times that were historically a giant "burst me now" sign I hardly see the use. I think the Heal Skill False Oasis should have it's cast time increased so it's not so effortlessly 125% covered by Mirage cloak. Partially covered? Sure that's what the class mechanic is about. But 125% coverage with Mirage Cloak is a bit ridiculous. I think it should have a cast time of 1.5 seconds so it's actually possible to interrupt a mirage trying to heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > > > No, it wasn't terrible. > > Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. > > You say this as if everyone playing high-end PvE content doesn't *always* have their finger on the right mouse button, where dodging in any direction is just a flick of the wrist and a left click away. But sure, lets say that everyone who plays Mirage in PvE is 75% potato and can't figure that out. That doesn't mean that the duration of Mirage Cloak can't be split from PvE, and have a normalized evade frame in sPvP/WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > > > > > No, it wasn't terrible. > > > > Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. > > > > > > You say this as if everyone playing high-end PvE content doesn't *always* have their finger on the right mouse button, where dodging in any direction is just a flick of the wrist and a left click away. But sure, lets say that everyone who plays Mirage in PvE is 75% potato and can't figure that out. That doesn't mean that the duration of Mirage Cloak can't be split from PvE, and have a normalized evade frame in sPvP/WvW. Since I can't edit for some reason: I see you aren't talking about just raid content, you mean PvP and WvW, too? The keyword you yourself used here was Demo*WEEKEND*. That is not *nearly* enough time to make a decision that the most core function of GW2 combat, dodging, needs to be increased on *one profession only* just because people couldn't get the hang of it over the course of *one weekend*. And unfortunately, ANET listened to the whines of players who couldn't handle a slight change, and held their hands and haven't let go since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > > > > > No, it wasn't terrible. And it won't be terrible now, though the tears will rain from the sky as Mirage mains have to re-adjust to the fair evade frames. It was players just starting a new playstyle and learning it. Considering you gain *superspeed* while in Mirage Cloak, the distance is equal. > > > > So because this is a game with more than just PvP, the .75 dodge was especially terrible in PvE where lingering aoe's and deathspots exist and .75 seconds of superspeed was not enough to get out of them in time without taking heavy damage or dying. Thus 1 second. > > .75s Normal dodge = 300 units. > .75s Superspeed in combat = 300 units. > > ????????? Forward only, and even with the rmb pressed you still have to take time to rotate and move. The dodge length isn't even the issue with Mirage. it's condition output and variety, and dodging while cc'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > > > > > No, it wasn't terrible. > > > > Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. > > > > > > You say this as if everyone playing high-end PvE content doesn't *always* have their finger on the right mouse button, where dodging in any direction is just a flick of the wrist and a left click away. But sure, lets say that everyone who plays Mirage in PvE is 75% potato and can't figure that out. That doesn't mean that the duration of Mirage Cloak can't be split from PvE, and have a normalized evade frame in sPvP/WvW. Are you not also guilty of assuming that everyone is a robot who is travelling in the direction to leave AoE at the exact millisecond of using mirage cloak? Are you not also being extreme over how you classify people? Just because someone might be human and have a reaction time of 0.2s which is average you assume that makes them an arbitrary 75% potato while ignoring some pretty OK reasons from people. Did you actually play mirage in the beta weekend? I did and mirage cloak and ambushes were very clunky where half the time you couldn't even use ambush skills because aftercasts exist that block you from using the ambush till it's done by which time you can't use the ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far. > > > > > > It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge. > > > > No, it wasn't terrible. > > Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. > > Exactly this. Anyone who actually played Mirage during beta weekend saw that Mirage Cloak at .75s was just flat out bad and needed to go to 1s. But I won't let get facts in the way of how someone feels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Defthand.3018 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics. But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics. > > But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair. No one runs portal anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics. > > > > But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair. > > No one runs portal anymore. That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics. > > > > > > But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair. > > > > No one runs portal anymore. > > That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage. With a 30 second window it is indeed useless and garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics. > > > > > > > > But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair. > > > > > > No one runs portal anymore. > > > > That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage. > > With a 30 second window it is indeed useless and garbage. its fine if used with purpose... Not being able to drop a portal and use it as a get out of jail free card has been a harsh adjustment though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair. > > > > > > > > No one runs portal anymore. > > > > > > That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage. > > > > With a 30 second window it is indeed useless and garbage. > > its fine if used with purpose... > Not being able to drop a portal and use it as a get out of jail free card has been a harsh adjustment though None of the mesmers I saw on Jawgeous or Jebros MAT coverage last month were running Portal. I personally haven't seen it run in ranked or unranked since it's nerf. But if you want to educate all those Mirages who've previously won Best of the Best and top 25 league titles and show them how inferior they are compared to you intellectually be my guest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Flavor of the year*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Jasper Defthand.3018" said: > I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control. Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer? Mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashi.8902 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"Jasper Defthand.3018" said: > > I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control. > > Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer? > > Mesmer You know thief is in a horrible spot right now right? The only viable build for thief atm is CORE sword dagger. Deadeye is a squishy meme other then the stealth on dodge it has nothing worthwhile. Meanwhile Mesmer should theoratically win every matchup except maybe boonbeast, has the mobility and stealth application of a thief the burst of a revenant (IN CONDIS), is basically impossible to kill since they have way to much disengage potential and to top it all off if there are 2 good luck finding the real one and actually outplaying them in the sea of illusions and phantasms they can spam out at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Lulz Thief dies to AoEs and can't hold a point. Mesmer doesn't have those problems XD #thiefishard2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Darqmane.4862 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Mirages make more mirages. How is that not OP. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > > > You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair. > > > > > > > > > > No one runs portal anymore. > > > > > > > > That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage. > > > > > > With a 30 second window it is indeed useless and garbage. > > > > its fine if used with purpose... > > Not being able to drop a portal and use it as a get out of jail free card has been a harsh adjustment though > > None of the mesmers I saw on Jawgeous or Jebros MAT coverage last month were running Portal. I personally haven't seen it run in ranked or unranked since it's nerf. > > But if you want to educate all those Mirages who've previously won Best of the Best and top 25 league titles and show them how inferior they are compared to you intellectually be my guest. well theres no need to bring the nails out, the harsh adjustment was a personal reflection as thats how I used portal. It was my get out of jail free card. Id say its extremely weird for someone to get upset by that but this is the pvp subsection so I guess I shouldn't expect anything less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Now I get why Anet doesn't communicate with the PvP subsection... Vial of salt - check Llamas hiding from players and thier unnecessary aggression - check Jokes about the "Gorillas in the mists" - check wonder what the next joke will be to reflect our community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity. > > > > > We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon. > > > > > We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab. > > > > > We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough. > > > > > We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort. > > > > > > > > > > But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced." > > > > > > > > Hah, don't strain yourself trying to be ironic. Perma swiftness TOO POWERFUL. Better watch out for those 2 evades and uhh... no teleports. > > > > > > > > Yes, holo is powerful, and it should be nerfed (I say this as an engi main). But it's not the biggest problem in the room either. > > > > > > Who would have thought perma swiftness allows to escape better than a profession without any swiftness access! Oh you coveniently forgot perma-vigor...and leaps. > > > No, the biggest problem is sb. > > > > > > But I find rather curious that you playing quoting you "conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage" complain about a profession who is countered by yours. > > > So if mirage is op and countered by holo, that makes holo...?! > > > > 1. Most classes have access to perma-swiftness, except guardian or necro. This is generally a moot point in most competitive matches. > > 2. Again, what you're talking about is [irrelevant to the discussion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism "irrelevant to the discussion"), because this thread is focused on **condi mirage**. I hope the thread title isn't unclear. > > 3. Don't be obtuse about what I wrote. I said my build was designed SPECIFICALLY to counter condi mirage, and even then, it only does enough to scare them off. I can still be murdered by them if I don't play it just right, and it only works as a counter in 1v1. > > Please do tell me how can I get perma-swiftness on mirage. > Oh but I know it is about condi mirage like a dozen other threads on pvp forums, just doing a comparison between condi mirage and holo. > Conv holo counters mirage, no need to design a build specifically, and if you scare them off, you won. Like every other profession on game, you don't play right you lose. > I see your tree, and raise you a forest. Your post is a shining example of what I started this thread about. :smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Get to top100 and you will see less mirages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"Jasper Defthand.3018" said: > > I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control. > > Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer? > > Mesmer Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean **nobody** ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Luna.6203" said: > > **honest question** I know that i'm not important enough to get some official answer. But i'm going to try it anyway. Please can any community manager ansfer me: > > **Are you going to nerf mirage-mesmer or not ? ** or are you planning to ? > > Actually when we spend hours doing balance suggestions with nerfs and up who answer literraly every main things peoples are crying about mesmer while not letting mesmers be useless then when you see only 3 mesmer participate in this post while 90% of players prefering create new : "nerf mersmer, nerf mesmer, ..." posts... > Same for other balance suggestion posts other than "nerf all" because "I don't play mesmer so I don't care as long as I just one shot them." > What to say... 90% of people are just no productive sentimental who will never have an overall vision of what they ask for. > > The truth is that, if Mirage would be smiters booned next patch, the 90% would throw a giant dance party on mirages grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > Id say its extremely weird for someone to get upset by that but this is the pvp subsection so I guess I shouldn't expect anything less. It wasn't you who got temporarily banned from forums a couple of weeks ago or last week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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