Proposed Gravedigger Change

[Timarius.2895]

We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

 

 

 

Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

 

1,210 (3.0)?

Number of Targets: 5

Life Force Gain on Targets Below 50% HP: 15%

or

Critical Severity on Targets Below 50% Increased by 25%

Combo Finisher: Whirl

Range: 170

 

Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

 

EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

 

EDIT: Updated the idea based on discussion in the thread.

[Teratus.2859]

Hehe I never mash 2 when enemy is under 50%.

I pop into max lifeforce Reaper shroud to take advantage of that extra bonus damage.

 

(Grandmaster Spite) Close to death +20% dmg to enemies below 50% health.

(Minor Soul Reaping) Strength of Undeath +10% dmg while life force above 50%

(Major Soul Reaping) Awaken the Pain Might gives more power and less condition dmg

(Grandmaster Soul Reaping) Death Perception +33% crit chance and +300 ferocity in shroud

(Minor Reaper) Cold Shoulder Chill last longer and chilled foes take +10% more dmg

(Grandmaster Reaper) Reapers Onslaught perma quickness +300 ferocity

 

On my build with 25 stacks of sigil precision +6 Superior runes of the Eagle, Going into Reaper shroud gives me 75% crit chance with a little over 1,500 ferocity

Enemies under 50% Hp take +46% damage when they are chilled and my life force is above 50%

That increases by another 25% if I have them at max stacks of vulnerability (which is very easy to solo stack on a Necro)

And once again dmg increases significantly if I have 25 stacks of might (which again is very easy to solo stack on a Necro) more so if I run Awaken the Pain.

 

Why spam Gravedigger at 50% when you can set up Gs3+Gs4 and Well of suffering to hit 25 stacks of vulnerability + AoE dmg, pop into Reaper Shroud to stack lots of might then chill and absolutely ravage your enemy's health with Soul Spiral :D

If you set it up right and get lucky with crits you can hit numbers like 75K which is my highest Soul Spiral hit so far.

And i'm not even running pure Dps stats.. with food I'm still hitting 30k HP +20K Life force on this build.

[Timarius.2895]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Hehe I never mash 2 when enemy is under 50%.

> I pop into max lifeforce Reaper shroud to take advantage of that extra bonus damage.

>

> (Grandmaster Spite) Close to death +20% dmg to enemies below 50% health.

> (Minor Soul Reaping) Strength of Undeath +10% dmg while life force above 50%

> (Major Soul Reaping) Awaken the Pain Might gives more power and less condition dmg

> (Grandmaster Soul Reaping) Death Perception +33% crit chance and +300 ferocity in shroud

> (Minor Reaper) Cold Shoulder Chill last longer and chilled foes take +10% more dmg

> (Grandmaster Reaper) Reapers Onslaught perma quickness +300 ferocity

>

> On my build with 25 stacks of sigil precision +6 Superior runes of the Eagle, Going into Reaper shroud gives me 75% crit chance with a little over 1,500 ferocity

> Enemies under 50% Hp take +46% damage when they are chilled and my life force is above 50%

> That increases by another 25% if I have them at max stacks of vulnerability (which is very easy to solo stack on a Necro)

> And once again dmg increases significantly if I have 25 stacks of might (which again is very easy to solo stack on a Necro) more so if I run Awaken the Pain.

>

> Why spam Gravedigger at 50% when you can set up Gs3+Gs4 and Well of suffering to hit 25 stacks of vulnerability + AoE dmg, pop into Reaper Shroud to stack lots of might then chill and absolutely ravage your enemy's health with Soul Spiral :D

> If you set it up right and get lucky with crits you can hit numbers like 75K which is my highest Soul Spiral hit so far.

> And i'm not even running pure Dps stats.. with food I'm still hitting 30k HP +20K Life force on this build.

 

While this is fun and all, it doesn't address the inherent flaw in Gravedigger. And true, the spam 2 need was before the major buffs that make Reaper so decent now.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > Hehe I never mash 2 when enemy is under 50%.

> > I pop into max lifeforce Reaper shroud to take advantage of that extra bonus damage.

> >

> > (Grandmaster Spite) Close to death +20% dmg to enemies below 50% health.

> > (Minor Soul Reaping) Strength of Undeath +10% dmg while life force above 50%

> > (Major Soul Reaping) Awaken the Pain Might gives more power and less condition dmg

> > (Grandmaster Soul Reaping) Death Perception +33% crit chance and +300 ferocity in shroud

> > (Minor Reaper) Cold Shoulder Chill last longer and chilled foes take +10% more dmg

> > (Grandmaster Reaper) Reapers Onslaught perma quickness +300 ferocity

> >

> > On my build with 25 stacks of sigil precision +6 Superior runes of the Eagle, Going into Reaper shroud gives me 75% crit chance with a little over 1,500 ferocity

> > Enemies under 50% Hp take +46% damage when they are chilled and my life force is above 50%

> > That increases by another 25% if I have them at max stacks of vulnerability (which is very easy to solo stack on a Necro)

> > And once again dmg increases significantly if I have 25 stacks of might (which again is very easy to solo stack on a Necro) more so if I run Awaken the Pain.

> >

> > Why spam Gravedigger at 50% when you can set up Gs3+Gs4 and Well of suffering to hit 25 stacks of vulnerability + AoE dmg, pop into Reaper Shroud to stack lots of might then chill and absolutely ravage your enemy's health with Soul Spiral :D

> > If you set it up right and get lucky with crits you can hit numbers like 75K which is my highest Soul Spiral hit so far.

> > And i'm not even running pure Dps stats.. with food I'm still hitting 30k HP +20K Life force on this build.

>

> While this is fun and all, it doesn't address the inherent flaw in Gravedigger. And true, the spam 2 need was before the major buffs that make Reaper so decent now.

 

If the need isn't there thanks to the major buffs, doesn't that technically mean they did address the flaw? just not directly with the skill lol

Only time I really spam Gs2 is as a replacement for the 3rd auto attack because it's faster and does more dmg 112 112 ^^

Look at my own build I think the changes you propose would probably make it overpowered.. though tbh I already feel like the build is ridiculously overpowered in PvE XD

Anything with 30K hp capable of perfoming a 75K hit should be classed as overpowered >.< even if hitting that kind of damage is circumstantial and you aint going to hit it often.

It does make me laugh though.. i've made 2 builds that I'd consider to be far too good at playing conflicting roles at the same time.. in this case Tank & DPS and they're both Necromancers XD

Spite Reaper can't tank like the Minion Master but it sure as hell can take more damage than it's damage output should allow for.

Likewise the Minion Master can't hit like the Spite Reaper but it sure as hell can do more damage than it's tankiness should allow for.

Man I love Necromancers ^^

[dace.8019]

I like gravedigger as it is, and I don't see the need for it to be reworked. It fits perfectly and has a useful role. Especially with the recent changes, popping it right out of RS with quickness from RO was a nice indirect buff.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Anything with 30K hp capable of perfoming a 75K hit should be classed as overpowered >.< even if hitting that kind of damage is circumstantial and you aint going to hit it often.

 

Well I agree that it's an issue in itself which mainly exist due to the fact that the necromancer have no tool to nullify damage but trait to replace the need for precision and ferocity. (PS: shroud and barrier are not nullifying damage, the necromancer take all the hit he don't block any of them which make a tanky necromancer weak against both hard hits and hard CC even if a dps necromancer is stronger than other professions' dps builds against hard hits)

 

However, like I said I totally agree that it's an issue that should be addressed, which mean that there is a need to rethink the necromancer defense in such a way that it's not directly related to a vast amount of health point.

 

> It does make me laugh though.. i've made 2 builds that I'd consider to be far too good at playing conflicting roles at the same time.. in this case Tank & DPS and they're both Necromancers XD

 

There is a lot of case of builds with conflicting roles on other professions, should we deny that possibility to the necromancer just because it's the necromancer? Chrono are good at both support and tanking, berserk are good at both dps and support (they best even than the most overpowered necromancer's dps build), Spell breaker have good tanking ability and at least as much dps than a full dps reaper, same goes for holosmith... etc.

 

I still agree that it's an issue, yes, that it give an unjust advantage against players that don't know how to use hard CC and that it should be addressed. Yet, objectively the damage output of all the necromancer's specs is still lacking behind other professions with tools that grant them the ability to add just as much survivability or simply way more/better support to an higher level of damage. Which, in the end, make this overpowered necromancer with it's 30k hp and ability to deal 75k hit when the stars align at the bottom of the overpowered specs accross all professions.

 

It's definitely OP but... still... 75k is it really a high number of damage in this game? I've seen axe warriors dealing more than 100k with a single skill, I've seen soulbeasts dealing more than 75k twice in a row thanks to their elite stance... Arrrh... I really feel that 30k hp and a mere 75k hit isn't really op in the current game, you could even say that it feel kinda weak.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > Anything with 30K hp capable of perfoming a 75K hit should be classed as overpowered >.< even if hitting that kind of damage is circumstantial and you aint going to hit it often.

>

> Well I agree that it's an issue in itself which mainly exist due to the fact that the necromancer have no tool to nullify damage but trait to replace the need for precision and ferocity. (PS: shroud and barrier are not nullifying damage, the necromancer take all the hit he don't block any of them which make a tanky necromancer weak against both hard hits and hard CC even if a dps necromancer is stronger than other professions' dps builds against hard hits)

>

> However, like I said I totally agree that it's an issue that should be addressed, which mean that there is a need to rethink the necromancer defense in such a way that it's not directly related to a vast amount of health point.

>

> > It does make me laugh though.. i've made 2 builds that I'd consider to be far too good at playing conflicting roles at the same time.. in this case Tank & DPS and they're both Necromancers XD

>

> There is a lot of case of builds with conflicting roles on other professions, should we deny that possibility to the necromancer just because it's the necromancer? Chrono are good at both support and tanking, berserk are good at both dps and support (they best even than the most overpowered necromancer's dps build), Spell breaker have good tanking ability and at least as much dps than a full dps reaper, same goes for holosmith... etc.

>

> I still agree that it's an issue, yes, that it give an unjust advantage against players that don't know how to use hard CC and that it should be addressed. Yet, objectively the damage output of all the necromancer's specs is still lacking behind other professions with tools that grant them the ability to add just as much survivability or simply way more/better support to an higher level of damage. Which, in the end, make this overpowered necromancer with it's 30k hp and ability to deal 75k hit when the stars align at the bottom of the overpowered specs accross all professions.

>

> It's definitely OP but... still... 75k is it really a high number of damage in this game? I've seen axe warriors dealing more than 100k with a single skill, I've seen soulbeasts dealing more than 75k twice in a row thanks to their elite stance... Arrrh... I really feel that 30k hp and a mere 75k hit isn't really op in the current game, you could even say that it feel kinda weak.

 

I guess it depends on what you're used to, 75K is in the damage range I'm not that familiar with since I tend to avoid glass canon dps builds.

I prefer survivor builds overall so 75K does seem on the high end to me for a Necro that isn't very squishy.. specially when I constantly hear power Necro isn't that great.

I know there are other classes that have the conflicting role status as well but i'm not familiar with them.. I've barely played Mesmer and many of the various elite specs i've never even used.

 

As a more or less purely PvE player though I don't think being OP is that big a deal overall.. even if my builds feel OP to me and can rip through general mobs in mere seconds.

I kinda like that Anet allow for it tbh, it definitely does a good job at revitalizing a players interest in the game when they discover a good build that's really fun to play.

The real question is how they stack up in pvp/wvw.. that's where builds being OP causes the most problems.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > Hehe I never mash 2 when enemy is under 50%.

> > > I pop into max lifeforce Reaper shroud to take advantage of that extra bonus damage.

> > >

> > > (Grandmaster Spite) Close to death +20% dmg to enemies below 50% health.

> > > (Minor Soul Reaping) Strength of Undeath +10% dmg while life force above 50%

> > > (Major Soul Reaping) Awaken the Pain Might gives more power and less condition dmg

> > > (Grandmaster Soul Reaping) Death Perception +33% crit chance and +300 ferocity in shroud

> > > (Minor Reaper) Cold Shoulder Chill last longer and chilled foes take +10% more dmg

> > > (Grandmaster Reaper) Reapers Onslaught perma quickness +300 ferocity

> > >

> > > On my build with 25 stacks of sigil precision +6 Superior runes of the Eagle, Going into Reaper shroud gives me 75% crit chance with a little over 1,500 ferocity

> > > Enemies under 50% Hp take +46% damage when they are chilled and my life force is above 50%

> > > That increases by another 25% if I have them at max stacks of vulnerability (which is very easy to solo stack on a Necro)

> > > And once again dmg increases significantly if I have 25 stacks of might (which again is very easy to solo stack on a Necro) more so if I run Awaken the Pain.

> > >

> > > Why spam Gravedigger at 50% when you can set up Gs3+Gs4 and Well of suffering to hit 25 stacks of vulnerability + AoE dmg, pop into Reaper Shroud to stack lots of might then chill and absolutely ravage your enemy's health with Soul Spiral :D

> > > If you set it up right and get lucky with crits you can hit numbers like 75K which is my highest Soul Spiral hit so far.

> > > And i'm not even running pure Dps stats.. with food I'm still hitting 30k HP +20K Life force on this build.

> >

> > While this is fun and all, it doesn't address the inherent flaw in Gravedigger. And true, the spam 2 need was before the major buffs that make Reaper so decent now.

>

> If the need isn't there thanks to the major buffs, doesn't that technically mean they did address the flaw? just not directly with the skill lol

> Only time I really spam Gs2 is as a replacement for the 3rd auto attack because it's faster and does more dmg 112 112 ^^

> Look at my own build I think the changes you propose would probably make it overpowered.. though tbh I already feel like the build is ridiculously overpowered in PvE XD

> Anything with 30K hp capable of perfoming a 75K hit should be classed as overpowered >.< even if hitting that kind of damage is circumstantial and you aint going to hit it often.

 

Wait. You are mixing pve with pvp.

 

I think you are referring to reaper shroud 4?!

It has a higher cooldown and compared to other classes it is interruptable dmg because it's a channeling skill.

Just let dh place his traps and use them. The burst is insane as well. Also necro can only cast a few spells to hit at the same time, while other classes can do way more.

Just think back to the ele, with the storm rune, that hit like crazy while the ele was able to perform attacks as well.

That added up to way more than 75k dmg.

 

 

> It does make me laugh though.. i've made 2 builds that I'd consider to be far too good at playing conflicting roles at the same time.. in this case Tank & DPS and they're both Necromancers XD

> Spite Reaper can't tank like the Minion Master but it sure as hell can take more damage than it's damage output should allow for.

 

Also this is pve talk, where enemies stupidly follow you, and stupidly hit you. They are all very predictable. So let them attack you like 3 times and you will know the attack pattern. Pretty easy.

But it's way harder to kill certain pve enemies as a necro, than it is for other classes, as all others have invulns, blocks or evades.

I just have to think back to the permanent evade mesmer I saw (guess it got nerfed). It was crazy, he dodged like 60 times in a fight with legendary bounty, solokill it without even taking dmg.

You won't be able to pull that of with a necro.

 

Also if you then go to PvP, people aren't that predictable anymore. Everyone will have their own style in playing their class, even if it's the exact same build, that another player came up with.

 

> Likewise the Minion Master can't hit like the Spite Reaper but it sure as hell can do more damage than it's tankiness should allow for.

> Man I love Necromancers ^^

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > Anything with 30K hp capable of perfoming a 75K hit should be classed as overpowered >.< even if hitting that kind of damage is circumstantial and you aint going to hit it often.

> >

> > Well I agree that it's an issue in itself which mainly exist due to the fact that the necromancer have no tool to nullify damage but trait to replace the need for precision and ferocity. (PS: shroud and barrier are not nullifying damage, the necromancer take all the hit he don't block any of them which make a tanky necromancer weak against both hard hits and hard CC even if a dps necromancer is stronger than other professions' dps builds against hard hits)

> >

> > However, like I said I totally agree that it's an issue that should be addressed, which mean that there is a need to rethink the necromancer defense in such a way that it's not directly related to a vast amount of health point.

> >

> > > It does make me laugh though.. i've made 2 builds that I'd consider to be far too good at playing conflicting roles at the same time.. in this case Tank & DPS and they're both Necromancers XD

> >

> > There is a lot of case of builds with conflicting roles on other professions, should we deny that possibility to the necromancer just because it's the necromancer? Chrono are good at both support and tanking, berserk are good at both dps and support (they best even than the most overpowered necromancer's dps build), Spell breaker have good tanking ability and at least as much dps than a full dps reaper, same goes for holosmith... etc.

> >

> > I still agree that it's an issue, yes, that it give an unjust advantage against players that don't know how to use hard CC and that it should be addressed. Yet, objectively the damage output of all the necromancer's specs is still lacking behind other professions with tools that grant them the ability to add just as much survivability or simply way more/better support to an higher level of damage. Which, in the end, make this overpowered necromancer with it's 30k hp and ability to deal 75k hit when the stars align at the bottom of the overpowered specs accross all professions.

> >

> > It's definitely OP but... still... 75k is it really a high number of damage in this game? I've seen axe warriors dealing more than 100k with a single skill, I've seen soulbeasts dealing more than 75k twice in a row thanks to their elite stance... Arrrh... I really feel that 30k hp and a mere 75k hit isn't really op in the current game, you could even say that it feel kinda weak.

>

> I guess it depends on what you're used to, 75K is in the damage range I'm not that familiar with since I tend to avoid glass canon dps builds.

> I prefer survivor builds overall so 75K does seem on the high end to me for a Necro that isn't very squishy.. specially when I constantly hear power Necro isn't that great.

> I know there are other classes that have the conflicting role status as well but i'm not familiar with them.. I've barely played Mesmer and many of the various elite specs i've never even used.

>

> As a more or less purely PvE player though I don't think being OP is that big a deal overall.. even if my builds feel OP to me and can rip through general mobs in mere seconds.

> I kinda like that Anet allow for it tbh, it definitely does a good job at revitalizing a players interest in the game when they discover a good build that's really fun to play.

> The real question is how they stack up in pvp/wvw.. that's where builds being OP causes the most problems.

 

As long as you get that in PvE the necromancer isn't even close to be the most op of all the professions, all is fine. In truth, this is the main issue of the necromancer in PvE because it's damage potential that you find impressive is merely so-so in front of all other professions' damage potentials which ended up with necromancers not wanted for a long time in PvE end game content.

 

There is a lot of design "flaws" on the necromancer that made him unpopular for PvE group content whenever there wasn't an exploit available to make him reach a "competitive" level of damage. Nowaday, the range of damage potential between the different professions shrunk a lot and the necromancer gained quite the breather but, still, he stay bottom of the barrel and thus while he is dish out an almost competitive level of damage, he isn't close to be a favored pick.

 

From my point of view, the main issue with how ANet brought up the necromancer to it's level of damage is what you point out as OP. I agree with you that it isn't healthy to have a resilient character deal high damage, yet objectively there is no other professions that lag behind in regard of OPness so maybe this perceived OPness is a standard of normality in the game.

 

What bother me more is that the recent changes that created those high number have more real impact in PvP/WvW than they do in PvE. Which mean that they probably weren't wise changes. My main reserve being on what happened to _death perception_ and ANet studborness to keep _dhuumfire_ in it's current form. These 2 traits are the main reason behind the rise of the power necromancer and the fall of the condition necromancer (any e-spec). I just can't shake the idea that what they chose to do was the worst solution to raise necromancer's power dps.

[Flumek.9043]

gs1 autoatack = 20k dps

gs2 = 30k dps

 

Thats. All...

 

Gravedigger is just "become thief dagger autoatack under 50%".

 

It has no special effect.

No range increase.

No evade or defenseive bonus.

A lot of clunky risk.

 

Like AT MINIMUN it should be a range and speed increase like zerker f1 was 450 EFFIN RANGE at launch...

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> Wait. You are mixing pve with pvp.

>

> I think you are referring to reaper shroud 4?!

> It has a higher cooldown and compared to other classes it is interruptable dmg because it's a channeling skill.

> Just let dh place his traps and use them. The burst is insane as well. Also necro can only cast a few spells to hit at the same time, while other classes can do way more.

> Just think back to the ele, with the storm rune, that hit like crazy while the ele was able to perform attacks as well.

> That added up to way more than 75k dmg.

 

Well in general.. this thread being in Necromancer and not PvE/PvP specifically, I figured all game modes would apply to the discussion.

And Reaper shroud 4 is the skill I'm referring to yes.

Ele is way more OP than most when it comes to that raw dmg that is true, but to my knowledge which admittedly is limited when it comes to Ele.. they can't duel role as well as a Necro can.. it's pretty much invest in pure DPS or something else with them.

 

> Also this is pve talk, where enemies stupidly follow you, and stupidly hit you. They are all very predictable. So let them attack you like 3 times and you will know the attack pattern. Pretty easy.

> But it's way harder to kill certain pve enemies as a necro, than it is for other classes, as all others have invulns, blocks or evades.

> I just have to think back to the permanent evade mesmer I saw (guess it got nerfed). It was crazy, he dodged like 60 times in a fight with legendary bounty, solokill it without even taking dmg.

> You won't be able to pull that of with a necro.

 

That's true although I admit I do like the variation based on class.. being able to make characters that can tank through evades or blocks instead of just tanking constant hits to the face does make each one feel different.. also punishes you differently based on class should you mess up.

In the Necro's case nothing in the game can give the same experience as being a tanky minion master.

Engies have turrets, Rangers have spirits, and Guards and Eles have summons but all of them suffer from little to no trait support compared to minions, duration and mobility caps also make them significantly less useful than minions.

No class can pull off what a Minion Master can with life steal etc, it's pretty unique to Necros.

I've beaten legendary bounties solo as well though people usually show up and join in when I decide to solo things.

Can't dodge like that Mesmer.. but I can facetank most if not every attack from most things.. saving my dodges for the things I need them for.

 

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> As long as you get that in PvE the necromancer isn't even close to be the most op of all the professions, all is fine. In truth, this is the main issue of the necromancer in PvE because it's damage potential that you find impressive is merely so-so in front of all other professions' damage potentials which ended up with necromancers not wanted for a long time in PvE end game content.

 

Well it's impressive compared to what i'm used to with older Necro builds, definitely better than what 'pre recent balance update' power Necro was.

 

> There is a lot of design "flaws" on the necromancer that made him unpopular for PvE group content whenever there wasn't an exploit available to make him reach a "competitive" level of damage. Nowaday, the range of damage potential between the different professions shrunk a lot and the necromancer gained quite the breather but, still, he stay bottom of the barrel and thus while he is dish out an almost competitive level of damage, he isn't close to be a favored pick.

 

By exploit I assume your referring to the frost gun one that was around a little while ago :P

That was one funny exploit tbh xD

 

> From my point of view, the main issue with how ANet brought up the necromancer to it's level of damage is what you point out as OP. I agree with you that it isn't healthy to have a resilient character deal high damage, yet objectively there is no other professions that lag behind in regard of OPness so maybe this perceived OPness is a standard of normality in the game.

 

Possibly.. As someone who isn't used to dishing out hits in the range of 75K and typically doesn't like glassy builds it does overall feel that that kind of damage potential in general is a bit on the high side..

As someone said earlier warriors able to put out over 100k just seems ridiculous to me regardless of game mode.

Should players be able to achieve that kind of damage with a single burst?.. I think there would be fair arguments on both sides of that discussion tbh.

 

> What bother me more is that the recent changes that created those high number have more real impact in PvP/WvW than they do in PvE. Which mean that they probably weren't wise changes. My main reserve being on what happened to _death perception_ and ANet studborness to keep _dhuumfire_ in it's current form. These 2 traits are the main reason behind the rise of the power necromancer and the fall of the condition necromancer (any e-spec). I just can't shake the idea that what they chose to do was the worst solution to raise necromancer's power dps.

 

Yeah i'm a big time subscriber to skill splitting and having builds, skills etc in those game modes completely seperate from each other.

It always sucks when your build ends up being nerfed or outright crippled because of a balance change that was only neccessary in a game mode you don't even play.

The 3 game modes are just too different to be using the same skill balance.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Timarius.2895" said:

> We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

>

>

>

> Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

>

> 1,210 (3.0)?

> Number of Targets: 5

> Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> Combo Finisher: Whirl

> Range: 170

>

> Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

>

> EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

 

This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

 

Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

 

 

New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

 

Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

[Timarius.2895]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

> >

> >

> >

> > Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

> >

> > 1,210 (3.0)?

> > Number of Targets: 5

> > Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> > Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> > Combo Finisher: Whirl

> > Range: 170

> >

> > Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

> >

> > EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

>

> This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

> We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

> If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

>

> Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

>

>

> New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

> Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

> Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

> Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

> Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

>

> Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

 

Of course Shroud entry, not each skill in shroud. I'd feel bad for people in PvP if it weren't for the one shot and condi bomb meta that runs rampant. Having 30k HP and being killed instantly before you can touch Shroud unless you spec into it as a stun break or automatic on near death is hardly overpowered. As I said, yeah, on critical might be something that needs to change, but the reduction of shroud entry time is a big one I need to contest. Reapers rely heavily on Reaper Shroud, especially with the changes that made it so much better than just spamming Gravedigger. Giving the Reaper a way to re-enter Reaper Shroud faster if used correctly is important to reinforcing the elite's identity and strength. The cooldown reduction to Reaper's Shroud could be any number of triggers on Gravedigger from on critical, to hitting a low health target, or even if you're above a certain life force threshold. It is a point of contest that I will hold firm on, however.

 

EDIT: Making your Shroud a stun break requires giving up 300 Ferocity and 33% crit chance in Shroud. Having it automatically activate when you're about to die requires running Death Magic. Either choice would lower your damage by quite a bit.

[Ceit.7619]

Complaining about 75k or 100k bursts is kind of weird when you are talking about pve. For example, A dps build that does 25k damage would be considered laughable, auto-kick horrible. That auto-kick build would hit 75k in 3 seconds, which is barely any time at all. It's easy to form numbers in weird ways and make them look huge, but context it relevant, and the goals of the game mode.

[Zenith.7301]

I'd rather they remove the CD reset and simply put in a damage amp on it and maybe partial cd refund on it.

 

Either way, reaper greatsword needs buffing still as does RS1. Reaper greatsword skills all need a buff of around 20% at least if they're not going to adress the cast times and aftercasts.

[Methuselah.4376]


Honestly..

[Timarius.2895]

> @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> 

> Honestly..

 

It's funny because the general consensus before the buffs was the opposite.

 

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> I'd rather they remove the CD reset and simply put in a damage amp on it and maybe partial cd refund on it.

>

> Either way, reaper greatsword needs buffing still as does RS1. Reaper greatsword skills all need a buff of around 20% at least if they're not going to adress the cast times and aftercasts.

 

Honestly anything is better than the 100% cooldown reduction below 50% HP. I'd really prefer to see a 2s reduction in Reaper Shroud cooldown, but at this point I'd settle for a burst of life force.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

> > >

> > > 1,210 (3.0)?

> > > Number of Targets: 5

> > > Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> > > Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> > > Combo Finisher: Whirl

> > > Range: 170

> > >

> > > Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

> > >

> > > EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

> >

> > This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

> > We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

> > If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

> >

> > Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

> >

> >

> > New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

> > Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

> > Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

> > Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

> > Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

> >

> > Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

>

> Of course Shroud entry, not each skill in shroud. I'd feel bad for people in PvP if it weren't for the one shot and condi bomb meta that runs rampant. Having 30k HP and being killed instantly before you can touch Shroud unless you spec into it as a stun break or automatic on near death is hardly overpowered. As I said, yeah, on critical might be something that needs to change, but the reduction of shroud entry time is a big one I need to contest. Reapers rely heavily on Reaper Shroud, especially with the changes that made it so much better than just spamming Gravedigger. Giving the Reaper a way to re-enter Reaper Shroud faster if used correctly is important to reinforcing the elite's identity and strength. The cooldown reduction to Reaper's Shroud could be any number of triggers on Gravedigger from on critical, to hitting a low health target, or even if you're above a certain life force threshold. It is a point of contest that I will hold firm on, however.

 

Its nice to know you are looking at this from the pvp perspective but let me bring up a few points of why your idea wont help.

- 1 if you are getting nuked for 30k damage nothing you do to change shroud cooldown entry will help you here. If you take 30k damage you will take 30k damage.

 

- 2 you are locking the idea of reducing the entry to shroud on one of the slowest skills in the game which has one of the biggest tells. Not to mention you need to put your face in danger to land said skill in people have plenty of time to interrupt you and burst you down

 

- 3 What profession nukes 30k hp in condition damage in a instant??? I cant think of a single one that does this. Power mesmer can spike you for that much in about 1.5 seconds in the perfect situation but not condition mesmer or firebrand or any condition build for that matter can do this without you seeing the damage coming.

 

Till recently reaper end game dps relied heavily on grave digger spam not reaper shroud which is why people want it to change. You really didnt go into shroud under 50% unless you missed a grave digger because it dealt more damage than shroud attacks and for before the quickness buff to RO it was dealing roughly the same damage if not more than a full shroud attack chain 2 grave diggers dealt more damage than a soul spiral and a single grave digger delt more than reaper skill 2 and 5 even at the lower hp thresholds.

Now reaper shroud has higher ferocity in it vs out of it due to some core changes as well which makes it a proper sustained dps tool over Grave digger and while grave digger is still a great option when life force starts to run low shroud when traited properly can now out damage it spamming it via higher critical damage.

 

This is why i propose my idea of just a effect damage increase allowing players to play their own rotations including rotations in or out of shroud over having to spam GD. Realistically in pve we dont need a shorter cooldown on shroud, would be nice, yes it would, do we need it, no not really. In pvp yes it would be helpful but then you have to try to land a super slow grave digger to get it which might be a bit clunky in design and i dont feel that giving up the reset functionality on GD is worth 2 seconds off shroud entry. I would personally rather keep it spammable over that when looking at all gamemodes pvp included

 

I know should entry reduction is something poeple have been wanting back for some time now but i think anet can find another way to do that my idea would be to make shroud knight (the trait that gives you reaper shroud) reduce the entry time at base, Or make shouts reduce entry time on use when you take the trait "Augury of Death" over the crappy and badly designed life sihpon heal

 

>

> EDIT: Making your Shroud a stun break requires giving up 300 Ferocity and 33% crit chance in Shroud. Having it automatically activate when you're about to die requires running Death Magic. Either choice would lower your damage by quite a bit.

 

Im not sure what this has to do with anything of the discussion. Being stunned does not stop you from entering shroud regardless of if your stun gets broken or not. Its instant meaning it can be activated at any time be it stunned, feared, knocked down, or mid cast of another skill. It is technically your job to manage when you think you can sustain for those 10 seconds without shroud and simply cutting it by 2 seconds (if you land a grave digger) wont help you. All you will find yourself doing is trying to go for GD hits more often and missing more often or being blown up just as much by that supposed "30k" damage.

 

[Timarius.2895]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > > We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

> > > >

> > > > 1,210 (3.0)?

> > > > Number of Targets: 5

> > > > Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> > > > Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> > > > Combo Finisher: Whirl

> > > > Range: 170

> > > >

> > > > Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

> > > >

> > > > EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

> > >

> > > This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

> > > We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

> > > If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

> > >

> > > Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

> > >

> > >

> > > New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

> > > Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

> > > Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

> > > Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

> > > Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

> > >

> > > Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

> >

> > Of course Shroud entry, not each skill in shroud. I'd feel bad for people in PvP if it weren't for the one shot and condi bomb meta that runs rampant. Having 30k HP and being killed instantly before you can touch Shroud unless you spec into it as a stun break or automatic on near death is hardly overpowered. As I said, yeah, on critical might be something that needs to change, but the reduction of shroud entry time is a big one I need to contest. Reapers rely heavily on Reaper Shroud, especially with the changes that made it so much better than just spamming Gravedigger. Giving the Reaper a way to re-enter Reaper Shroud faster if used correctly is important to reinforcing the elite's identity and strength. The cooldown reduction to Reaper's Shroud could be any number of triggers on Gravedigger from on critical, to hitting a low health target, or even if you're above a certain life force threshold. It is a point of contest that I will hold firm on, however.

>

> Its nice to know you are looking at this from the pvp perspective but let me bring up a few points of why your idea wont help.

> - 1 if you are getting nuked for 30k damage nothing you do to change shroud cooldown entry will help you here. If you take 30k damage you will take 30k damage.

>

> - 2 you are locking the idea of reducing the entry to shroud on one of the slowest skills in the game which has one of the biggest tells. Not to mention you need to put your face in danger to land said skill in people have plenty of time to interrupt you and burst you down

>

> - 3 What profession nukes 30k hp in condition damage in a instant??? I cant think of a single one that does this. Power mesmer can spike you for that much in about 1.5 seconds in the perfect situation but not condition mesmer or firebrand or any condition build for that matter can do this without you seeing the damage coming.

>

> Till recently reaper end game dps relied heavily on grave digger spam not reaper shroud which is why people want it to change. You really didnt go into shroud under 50% unless you missed a grave digger because it dealt more damage than shroud attacks and for before the quickness buff to RO it was dealing roughly the same damage if not more than a full shroud attack chain 2 grave diggers dealt more damage than a soul spiral and a single grave digger delt more than reaper skill 2 and 5 even at the lower hp thresholds.

> Now reaper shroud has higher ferocity in it vs out of it due to some core changes as well which makes it a proper sustained dps tool over Grave digger and while grave digger is still a great option when life force starts to run low shroud when traited properly can now out damage it spamming it via higher critical damage.

>

> This is why i propose my idea of just a effect damage increase allowing players to play their own rotations including rotations in or out of shroud over having to spam GD. Realistically in pve we dont need a shorter cooldown on shroud, would be nice, yes it would, do we need it, no not really. In pvp yes it would be helpful but then you have to try to land a super slow grave digger to get it which might be a bit clunky in design and i dont feel that giving up the reset functionality on GD is worth 2 seconds off shroud entry. I would personally rather keep it spammable over that when looking at all gamemodes pvp included

>

> I know should entry reduction is something poeple have been wanting back for some time now but i think anet can find another way to do that my idea would be to make shroud knight (the trait that gives you reaper shroud) reduce the entry time at base, Or make shouts reduce entry time on use when you take the trait "Augury of Death" over the crappy and badly designed life sihpon heal

>

> >

> > EDIT: Making your Shroud a stun break requires giving up 300 Ferocity and 33% crit chance in Shroud. Having it automatically activate when you're about to die requires running Death Magic. Either choice would lower your damage by quite a bit.

>

> Im not sure what this has to do with anything of the discussion. Being stunned does not stop you from entering shroud regardless of if your stun gets broken or not. Its instant meaning it can be activated at any time be it stunned, feared, knocked down, or mid cast of another skill. It is technically your job to manage when you think you can sustain for those 10 seconds without shroud and simply cutting it by 2 seconds (if you land a grave digger) wont help you. All you will find yourself doing is trying to go for GD hits more often and missing more often or being blown up just as much by that supposed "30k" damage.

>

 

Condition bombing is less about sudden death but more about sudden unmanageable incoming damage. Most of the problem is that Necromancers do not have many effective ways of removing conditions that don't require a dedicated weapon for it (Dagger/Staff 4 which are both transfers that require an enemy) or several dedicated traits. Sure, there is Consume Conditions (a PvP favorite of mine), but the other utility skills are far from effective. Well of Power won't cleanse a properly set up condition bomb before irreparable damage is done, Plague Signet compounds the issue by transferring conditions from allies to yourself and only really has great synergy with condition transferring minions, "Suffer!" has a limit of one condition per target limiting its use in 1v1s, and this leaves only Scourge with considerable defense against conditions through traits. And beyond all of this is the baseline issue that PvP combat in GW2 is currently far too full of burst damage and spikes.

 

I honestly forgot you could enter Shroud while crowd controlled due to the amount of time I've spent recently as Scourge trying to find a fun support build, so thank you for bringing that up. True, locking the 2s Shroud reduction to Gravedigger would work well in PvE but not so much in PvE, but giving Reaper a 7-8s Shroud cooldown baseline would have everyone else up in arms (not that I'm against the idea). However, on that end I'm not sure I like your replacement idea, so I propose a replacement to my own idea. Gravedigger could lose its cooldown reduction below 50% and gain either a burst of life force gain on targets below 50% or increased critical severity on targets below 50%. On the topic of "Augury of Death", honestly it shows a design flaw in the Reaper itself. The Reaper is designed to take on a large number of targets, but that's simply not possible in PvP due to the lack of survivability Necromancers have as far as having a toolkit that includes more than a big HP pool. But that's a discussion for another topic. I will update the opening post.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Timarius.2895" said:

> > > > > We all know Gravedigger is odd. Its sound effects sound like somebody gulping against a microphone, and its instant recharge when hitting an enemy below 50% HP coupled with its massive damage incentivize mashing the same button repeatedly halfway through a fight. Therefore, I propose the following:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Perform a huge swing that deals heavy damage. Recharges shroud by two seconds and grants fifteen percent Life Force on critical hit.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1,210 (3.0)?

> > > > > Number of Targets: 5

> > > > > Shroud Recharge Reduced on Critical Hit: 2s

> > > > > Life Force Gain on Critical Hit: 15%

> > > > > Combo Finisher: Whirl

> > > > > Range: 170

> > > > >

> > > > > Reaper already builds around massive critical hit bonuses from attacking vulnerable targets, and this change to Gravedigger will replace the "mash 2 over and over" gameplay with a benefit to Reaper's main draw, Reaper's Shroud. There's argument for whether or not an on critical effect fits or if it should remain as below 50% HP, but making Gravedigger essentially dig the targets grave by using their pain to fuel Reaper's Shroud is a far cry above the current mechanic.

> > > > >

> > > > > EDIT: Also a shameless promotion for lowering the cooldown on Lich Form. Do it.

> > > >

> > > > This is too situational to realistically i dont see the use of having shroud recharge reduced with this skill its realistically not something we need.

> > > > We currently have 2 ways of cutting shroud skill cd via trats ideally its realistically not needed for pve

> > > > If you are talking shroud entry no one will like this for pvp not only do you need to land a slow skill to get it it also needs to crit for a minimal 2s cd of shroud entry.

> > > >

> > > > Why not just make it so necro can perform their own rotations without spamming the skill. Reward for landing the skill at all times not just below 50% Literally just remove the cd reset from Grave Digger it and give the Necro a new effect on hit which allows them to continue the rotation as they see fit.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > New effect "Lethality" has been added to the game

> > > > Triggers upon successful hit of grave digger

> > > > Above 50% Lethality (6s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 5%

> > > > Below 50% - 15% Lethality (12s) : Dealing increased damage for a short period of time. Damage increased: 15%

> > > > Cd reset under 50% has been removed.

> > > >

> > > > Side note.... grave digger actually has nice sound effects if you have a good sound system to enjoy it ;) Its just less enjoyable when spammed every other second.

> > >

> > > Of course Shroud entry, not each skill in shroud. I'd feel bad for people in PvP if it weren't for the one shot and condi bomb meta that runs rampant. Having 30k HP and being killed instantly before you can touch Shroud unless you spec into it as a stun break or automatic on near death is hardly overpowered. As I said, yeah, on critical might be something that needs to change, but the reduction of shroud entry time is a big one I need to contest. Reapers rely heavily on Reaper Shroud, especially with the changes that made it so much better than just spamming Gravedigger. Giving the Reaper a way to re-enter Reaper Shroud faster if used correctly is important to reinforcing the elite's identity and strength. The cooldown reduction to Reaper's Shroud could be any number of triggers on Gravedigger from on critical, to hitting a low health target, or even if you're above a certain life force threshold. It is a point of contest that I will hold firm on, however.

> >

> > Its nice to know you are looking at this from the pvp perspective but let me bring up a few points of why your idea wont help.

> > - 1 if you are getting nuked for 30k damage nothing you do to change shroud cooldown entry will help you here. If you take 30k damage you will take 30k damage.

> >

> > - 2 you are locking the idea of reducing the entry to shroud on one of the slowest skills in the game which has one of the biggest tells. Not to mention you need to put your face in danger to land said skill in people have plenty of time to interrupt you and burst you down

> >

> > - 3 What profession nukes 30k hp in condition damage in a instant??? I cant think of a single one that does this. Power mesmer can spike you for that much in about 1.5 seconds in the perfect situation but not condition mesmer or firebrand or any condition build for that matter can do this without you seeing the damage coming.

> >

> > Till recently reaper end game dps relied heavily on grave digger spam not reaper shroud which is why people want it to change. You really didnt go into shroud under 50% unless you missed a grave digger because it dealt more damage than shroud attacks and for before the quickness buff to RO it was dealing roughly the same damage if not more than a full shroud attack chain 2 grave diggers dealt more damage than a soul spiral and a single grave digger delt more than reaper skill 2 and 5 even at the lower hp thresholds.

> > Now reaper shroud has higher ferocity in it vs out of it due to some core changes as well which makes it a proper sustained dps tool over Grave digger and while grave digger is still a great option when life force starts to run low shroud when traited properly can now out damage it spamming it via higher critical damage.

> >

> > This is why i propose my idea of just a effect damage increase allowing players to play their own rotations including rotations in or out of shroud over having to spam GD. Realistically in pve we dont need a shorter cooldown on shroud, would be nice, yes it would, do we need it, no not really. In pvp yes it would be helpful but then you have to try to land a super slow grave digger to get it which might be a bit clunky in design and i dont feel that giving up the reset functionality on GD is worth 2 seconds off shroud entry. I would personally rather keep it spammable over that when looking at all gamemodes pvp included

> >

> > I know should entry reduction is something poeple have been wanting back for some time now but i think anet can find another way to do that my idea would be to make shroud knight (the trait that gives you reaper shroud) reduce the entry time at base, Or make shouts reduce entry time on use when you take the trait "Augury of Death" over the crappy and badly designed life sihpon heal

> >

> > >

> > > EDIT: Making your Shroud a stun break requires giving up 300 Ferocity and 33% crit chance in Shroud. Having it automatically activate when you're about to die requires running Death Magic. Either choice would lower your damage by quite a bit.

> >

> > Im not sure what this has to do with anything of the discussion. Being stunned does not stop you from entering shroud regardless of if your stun gets broken or not. Its instant meaning it can be activated at any time be it stunned, feared, knocked down, or mid cast of another skill. It is technically your job to manage when you think you can sustain for those 10 seconds without shroud and simply cutting it by 2 seconds (if you land a grave digger) wont help you. All you will find yourself doing is trying to go for GD hits more often and missing more often or being blown up just as much by that supposed "30k" damage.

> >

>

> Condition bombing is less about sudden death but more about sudden unmanageable incoming damage. Most of the problem is that Necromancers do not have many effective ways of removing conditions that don't require a dedicated weapon for it (Dagger/Staff 4 which are both transfers that require an enemy) or several dedicated traits. Sure, there is Consume Conditions (a PvP favorite of mine), but the other utility skills are far from effective. Well of Power won't cleanse a properly set up condition bomb before irreparable damage is done, Plague Signet compounds the issue by transferring conditions from allies to yourself and only really has great synergy with condition transferring minions, "Suffer!" has a limit of one condition per target limiting its use in 1v1s, and this leaves only Scourge with considerable defense against conditions through traits. And beyond all of this is the baseline issue that PvP combat in GW2 is currently far too full of burst damage and spikes.

 

Burst damage spikes for one thing is far more healthy than super tanks that never die. Thats why they are trying so hard not to repeat what was the HoT meat early on in the HoT season. Its not fun being spiked for all your health but its even less fun when when you start to come to the realization that you cant kill another person on your own or with a +1 or +2 in some instances.

I dont agree that any profession should have 20k+ damage burst though i feel like burst of 10k-15k is perfectly healthy though in pvp. (not counting wvw)

 

On your topic of condition bombing. Honestly i find condition management to be harder to manage on any other profession but necromancer if i had to be perfectly honest with you. You do have plenty of options generally where as other professions might not in their common builds, although maybe with Ranger might the only exception ( i think they get too much for free right now (worse than mirage)) Necro does have good condi removal options I never feel per say gated into a certain weapon just to have condition cleanse. If i use a staff its because i need aoe pressure the condition removal on staff 4 is just a plus on top for me. With dagger 4 if i take off hand dagger i generally want the blind more than the condition removal. (that said i dont run off hand dagger much)

I personally dont like scourge its too different of a concept that keeps me drawn into necro and it does not feel like an alternate form of necro to me it feels like its own profession. And i like my shrouds.... :astonished:

 

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> I honestly forgot you could enter Shroud while crowd controlled due to the amount of time I've spent recently as Scourge trying to find a fun support build, so thank you for bringing that up. True, locking the 2s Shroud reduction to Gravedigger would work well in PvE but not so much in PvE, but giving Reaper a 7-8s Shroud cooldown baseline would have everyone else up in arms (not that I'm against the idea). However, on that end I'm not sure I like your replacement idea, so I propose a replacement to my own idea. Gravedigger could lose its cooldown reduction below 50% and gain either a burst of life force gain on targets below 50% or increased critical severity on targets below 50%. On the topic of "Augury of Death", honestly it shows a design flaw in the Reaper itself. The Reaper is designed to take on a large number of targets, but that's simply not possible in PvP due to the lack of survivability Necromancers have as far as having a toolkit that includes more than a big HP pool. But that's a discussion for another topic. I will update the opening post.

 

But its not really needed in PvE or so i dont feel like it is.. That said its fine to disagree with my idea nothing wrong with that at all i just wanted to go more in depth about why i wrote out my idea the way i did. We can agree not go disagree on each others ideas thats what this is all about after all :+1:

 

In the case of augury of death i feel like they just didn't have a good mechanic idea for it so life siphon thrown in because why not. It is one of the few traits if anything possibly the only trait left in the reaper line that really needs a rework along with some of the shouts themselves.