Catchyfx.5768 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > Asks about the state of necros after not playing for years > > > > > > > > > > > > People currently playing the game give honest answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Proceeds to argue why those people are wrong because Epi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Epic. > > > > > > > > > > The OP don't seem to be the one who argue thought. > > > > > > > > True ... I have no problem with the OP's posts and it wasn't directed at him. I guess that wasn't very clear. Frankly, anyone that thinks Necro isn't currently in a good state because of Epi doesn't seem to understand what being in a good state is in the first place. > > > > > > its NOT just epi that made necro and I know that, it is just one of the things that made necro good and still decent even after all the nerfing until now epi is kinda just trash and useless at this point > > > > OK ... but that doesn't relate much to the thread does it? Necro IS in a good spot right now; no reason to argue with people about Epi in it. > > if necro is in a good spot right now why is it it feels im hitting stuff with a wet noodle when im condi reaper? or condi scourge? unless they have boons then I hit with a non-wet noodle. sure necro may be fine in PVP/WVW but in PVE they are SORELY lacking Maybe rotation issue.overall condi dmg Is far behind power dmg. But you can still benefit from epi. You need understand that scourge isnt condi DPS class(Its support) And Reaper Is (Now) maminky power DPS. Maybe se her condi dmg spec And you Will be able to spam those little tics of blood to Infinity But with epi you Are powerfull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > Asks about the state of necros after not playing for years > > > > > > > > > > > > People currently playing the game give honest answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Proceeds to argue why those people are wrong because Epi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Epic. > > > > > > > > > > The OP don't seem to be the one who argue thought. > > > > > > > > True ... I have no problem with the OP's posts and it wasn't directed at him. I guess that wasn't very clear. Frankly, anyone that thinks Necro isn't currently in a good state because of Epi doesn't seem to understand what being in a good state is in the first place. > > > > > > its NOT just epi that made necro and I know that, it is just one of the things that made necro good and still decent even after all the nerfing until now epi is kinda just trash and useless at this point > > > > OK ... but that doesn't relate much to the thread does it? Necro IS in a good spot right now; no reason to argue with people about Epi in it. > > if necro is in a good spot right now why is it it feels im hitting stuff with a wet noodle when im condi reaper? or condi scourge? unless they have boons then I hit with a non-wet noodle. sure necro may be fine in PVP/WVW but in PVE they are SORELY lacking Being in a good place doesn't mean that whatever build you choose to play doesn't hit like a wet noodle. The game has NEVER worked so that you can just choose a build and it's awesome, even if it's a **top** tier class. The fact is that classes have optimal builds because of all the choices available to us and what is optimal can change regularly because of game changes. You need to realign your expectations with how the game functions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > if necro is in a good spot right now why is it it feels im hitting stuff with a wet noodle when im condi reaper? or condi scourge? unless they have boons then I hit with a non-wet noodle. sure necro may be fine in PVP/WVW but in PVE they are SORELY lacking There can be quite a few answer to your question. Some of them have been answered already but in essence PvP players hate dying to condition which led ANet to modify conditions in such a way that you need more ramp up before seeing them really effective. The necromancer who already had the longest ramp up ended up with an even longer ramp up. So your issue is that unless you use terror the necromancer don't really have a condi burst which make you feel that you hit like a wet noodle since it make your fight longer. Condi necromancers didn't have huge loss of condi output, they just had a loss of condi burst which mean that the longer the fight the better your c-reaper will be, on another hand, taking care of trash mob now feel like chore, but that's all. It depend a lot on your build but if you're using a viper c-reaper with Curse/SR/Reaper, you might become more effective by taking _death perception_ instead of _dhuumfire_. After all the value of _dhuumfire_ with the RS decay rate isn't really that great and _Death perception_ give you a good boost to your burst damage combo (RS5 / RS4). You just need to think outside the condi box a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > if necro is in a good spot right now why is it it feels im hitting stuff with a wet noodle when im condi reaper? or condi scourge? unless they have boons then I hit with a non-wet noodle. sure necro may be fine in PVP/WVW but in PVE they are SORELY lacking > > There can be quite a few answer to your question. Some of them have been answered already but in essence PvP players hate dying to condition which led ANet to modify conditions in such a way that you need more ramp up before seeing them really effective. The necromancer who already had the longest ramp up ended up with an even longer ramp up. So your issue is that unless you use terror the necromancer don't really have a condi burst which make you feel that you hit like a wet noodle since it make your fight longer. > > Condi necromancers didn't have huge loss of condi output, they just had a loss of condi burst which mean that the longer the fight the better your c-reaper will be, on another hand, taking care of trash mob now feel like chore, but that's all. > > It depend a lot on your build but if you're using a viper c-reaper with Curse/SR/Reaper, you might become more effective by taking _death perception_ instead of _dhuumfire_. After all the value of _dhuumfire_ with the RS decay rate isn't really that great and _Death perception_ give you a good boost to your burst damage combo (RS5 / RS4). You just need to think outside the condi box a bit. They should just increase the duration by 200/300% at this point to make condi ramp up worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > They should just increase the duration by 200/300% at this point to make condi ramp up worth it. It wouldn't make things better. The issue is the burst, the best solution would probably be to increase the number of fear source of the necromancer or/and increase the base fear duration of the necromancer's fear in PvE (only). _"Chill to the bone!"_ could fear for 2 second in PvE and 1 second in PvP instead of the stun effect for example. _Putrid explosion_ from bone minions could become _fear explosion_ fearing for 1s instead of dealing damage (anyway nobody have had any success with this skill since release, the skill can oly become better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > They should just increase the duration by 200/300% at this point to make condi ramp up worth it. > > It wouldn't make things better. The issue is the burst, the best solution would probably be to increase the number of fear source of the necromancer or/and increase the base fear duration of the necromancer's fear in PvE (only). _"Chill to the bone!"_ could fear for 2 second in PvE and 1 second in PvP instead of the stun effect for example. _Putrid explosion_ from bone minions could become _fear explosion_ fearing for 1s instead of dealing damage (anyway nobody have had any success with this skill since release, the skill can oly become better) Fear needs changes for sure as it has many counters, but if condi damage is expected to ramp up, and necros have as you said a ramp, then it needs a relatively long duration like in everquest. People wanted condis to do low dmg and keep doing the same damage over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > pReaper is I dare to say Meta DPS for fractals > Teapot's support scourge makes every run succesfull run. > Condi dmg is little bit behind thats true. > Someone brings Viper/Grieving Condi reaper to get 30k. thats nice too. > > But to the point :) > One of the reasons why ppl kick necro is because...players are just dumb. Thats all. > If you are using brain and have some experience with game you know that benchmark is sweet wet dream that happends only with ideal setup, other good players and lot of comunication, and even then real dps drops and isnt 100% to benchmark. Which leads me to questions. > - how many realy good people you meet ? I'm pugging every day and I tell you if it's once per week or two its holyday. Most of the time I play with Zerker Druids and warriors that put banners and die. Players runs like chickens until first aoe pops up etc.I would say 60-30-10 kitten-casual-meta capable is the ratio. > > If you dont plan to make Speedclear records you will be pretty much OK with necro. Unlike other classes Necro(pReaper for example) can realisticly hit his 31k even in bad groups, only thing you need is fury and alacrity. even without it you can do 26-28 idk.. > Most Important thing is Necro have all this builds listed in those benchmarks so common dumb folks know that there are "meta builds" so you dont get insta kick if necro. > > Another thing is to necro players to improve. I see really many necros running exactly everything what is wroted in the build. (again pReaper for example Spite,SR,Reaper) > In 99 Fractal with toxic Trail and other condi handicap they take blood fiend, dmg well,fiend,power signet and golem. You can Swap Fiend for Well of Power and heal for another well (whirl finisher cleanse) or Vampiric Signet put on CD for group heal and little tine dps boost. These 2 thing will drop your Dps lets say max 1-1,5k even if 3K you boost your group with every condi on you and your teamates. Or switching offhands for best result. > > Or you have bad healer but are in midlle of the run drop 1 traitline for Blood Magic-> Vampiric presence and go wells yeah you drop 5k DPS but you dont wipe. > I think lot of people forget about this and just play what someone wrote. I mean losing 5k isnt a thing if you help other does dps. > > I personaly running right now more classess so necro sleeps most of the time and I using him only for daily fractals. But while playing other classes. Im getting to situations where I say to myself " kitten...If there will be good necro this stuff will be so EZ!". > > So my result: > > If I started year and something ago playing this game. In Benchmarks was 10k differences. Right now its 38(unrealistic) vs 29 realistic which is totally OK! > Necro can bring unique buffs to team (yes not Offensive(maybe vampiric presence)) but makes everything ezier if are playing by people with brain and situational awareness. Necro doesn't bring unique buffs. What are there? VP? Pretty useless if you compare it with renegade elite. Barriers? - some mechanics just ignore them And that's also only if you get to play support scourge. So someone mentioned teapots support scourge, which isn't that good. Especially when people have to split. Because it does literally no regeneration, has dumb delay on shade skills, so people sometimes still manage to walk out of the sand savant- shade Then next, it's not able to keep up 25 stacks of might (not even with 80% boonduration) and doesn't give any other boons. It can condi cleanse pretty good, and rezz people but that's it. And 29k is pretty unrealistic at most bosses. Maybe at mursat overseer. Or some other very static bosses, that don't have much cleave or ambient dmg. I would refer you to raiders, but it's broken. Mostly because of wing 6 boss 1 But before that, power reaper 99th percentile was at 22-24k. So you will do that dmg on the static bosses and on other you will be at maybe 19k max? So good luck in beating engis or thiefes with that. And I don't want to repeat myself, why reaper is inferior to no-kit-holo. Just scroll a bit up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > They should just increase the duration by 200/300% at this point to make condi ramp up worth it. > > It wouldn't make things better. The issue is the burst, the best solution would probably be to increase the number of fear source of the necromancer or/and increase the base fear duration of the necromancer's fear in PvE (only). _"Chill to the bone!"_ could fear for 2 second in PvE and 1 second in PvP instead of the stun effect for example. _Putrid explosion_ from bone minions could become _fear explosion_ fearing for 1s instead of dealing damage (anyway nobody have had any success with this skill since release, the skill can oly become better) That would be a nerf to chill to the bone. And the other change wouldn't be noticeable, as minions are pretty bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > > pReaper is I dare to say Meta DPS for fractals > > Teapot's support scourge makes every run succesfull run. > > Condi dmg is little bit behind thats true. > > Someone brings Viper/Grieving Condi reaper to get 30k. thats nice too. > > > > But to the point :) > > One of the reasons why ppl kick necro is because...players are just dumb. Thats all. > > If you are using brain and have some experience with game you know that benchmark is sweet wet dream that happends only with ideal setup, other good players and lot of comunication, and even then real dps drops and isnt 100% to benchmark. Which leads me to questions. > > - how many realy good people you meet ? I'm pugging every day and I tell you if it's once per week or two its holyday. Most of the time I play with Zerker Druids and warriors that put banners and die. Players runs like chickens until first aoe pops up etc.I would say 60-30-10 kitten-casual-meta capable is the ratio. > > > > If you dont plan to make Speedclear records you will be pretty much OK with necro. Unlike other classes Necro(pReaper for example) can realisticly hit his 31k even in bad groups, only thing you need is fury and alacrity. even without it you can do 26-28 idk.. > > Most Important thing is Necro have all this builds listed in those benchmarks so common dumb folks know that there are "meta builds" so you dont get insta kick if necro. > > > > Another thing is to necro players to improve. I see really many necros running exactly everything what is wroted in the build. (again pReaper for example Spite,SR,Reaper) > > In 99 Fractal with toxic Trail and other condi handicap they take blood fiend, dmg well,fiend,power signet and golem. You can Swap Fiend for Well of Power and heal for another well (whirl finisher cleanse) or Vampiric Signet put on CD for group heal and little tine dps boost. These 2 thing will drop your Dps lets say max 1-1,5k even if 3K you boost your group with every condi on you and your teamates. Or switching offhands for best result. > > > > Or you have bad healer but are in midlle of the run drop 1 traitline for Blood Magic-> Vampiric presence and go wells yeah you drop 5k DPS but you dont wipe. > > I think lot of people forget about this and just play what someone wrote. I mean losing 5k isnt a thing if you help other does dps. > > > > I personaly running right now more classess so necro sleeps most of the time and I using him only for daily fractals. But while playing other classes. Im getting to situations where I say to myself " kitten...If there will be good necro this stuff will be so EZ!". > > > > So my result: > > > > If I started year and something ago playing this game. In Benchmarks was 10k differences. Right now its 38(unrealistic) vs 29 realistic which is totally OK! > > Necro can bring unique buffs to team (yes not Offensive(maybe vampiric presence)) but makes everything ezier if are playing by people with brain and situational awareness. > > Necro doesn't bring unique buffs. > What are there? > VP? Pretty useless if you compare it with renegade elite. > Barriers? - some mechanics just ignore them > And that's also only if you get to play support scourge. > > So someone mentioned teapots support scourge, which isn't that good. > Especially when people have to split. Because it does literally no regeneration, has dumb delay on shade skills, so people sometimes still manage to walk out of the sand savant- shade > Then next, it's not able to keep up 25 stacks of might (not even with 80% boonduration) and doesn't give any other boons. > It can condi cleanse pretty good, and rezz people but that's it. > > > And 29k is pretty unrealistic at most bosses. Maybe at mursat overseer. Or some other very static bosses, that don't have much cleave or ambient dmg. > I would refer you to raiders, but it's broken. > Mostly because of wing 6 boss 1 > > But before that, power reaper 99th percentile was at 22-24k. So you will do that dmg on the static bosses and on other you will be at maybe 19k max? > So good luck in beating engis or thiefes with that. > > And I don't want to repeat myself, why reaper is inferior to no-kit-holo. Just scroll a bit up I don't get this mentality and based on the general increased acceptance of Necro in raids since the recent improvements ... neither do many other people. How does being better than someone else at anything become the litmus test for whether a class is 'good' or not? That makes no sense. necro bring lots to the table and it's not relevant if someone else does something (oe even everything) better than it; a class is not measured by the dissection of it's individual components. The whole package matters and the package we have now is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > > pReaper is I dare to say Meta DPS for fractals > > Teapot's support scourge makes every run succesfull run. > > Condi dmg is little bit behind thats true. > > Someone brings Viper/Grieving Condi reaper to get 30k. thats nice too. > > > > But to the point :) > > One of the reasons why ppl kick necro is because...players are just dumb. Thats all. > > If you are using brain and have some experience with game you know that benchmark is sweet wet dream that happends only with ideal setup, other good players and lot of comunication, and even then real dps drops and isnt 100% to benchmark. Which leads me to questions. > > - how many realy good people you meet ? I'm pugging every day and I tell you if it's once per week or two its holyday. Most of the time I play with Zerker Druids and warriors that put banners and die. Players runs like chickens until first aoe pops up etc.I would say 60-30-10 kitten-casual-meta capable is the ratio. > > > > If you dont plan to make Speedclear records you will be pretty much OK with necro. Unlike other classes Necro(pReaper for example) can realisticly hit his 31k even in bad groups, only thing you need is fury and alacrity. even without it you can do 26-28 idk.. > > Most Important thing is Necro have all this builds listed in those benchmarks so common dumb folks know that there are "meta builds" so you dont get insta kick if necro. > > > > Another thing is to necro players to improve. I see really many necros running exactly everything what is wroted in the build. (again pReaper for example Spite,SR,Reaper) > > In 99 Fractal with toxic Trail and other condi handicap they take blood fiend, dmg well,fiend,power signet and golem. You can Swap Fiend for Well of Power and heal for another well (whirl finisher cleanse) or Vampiric Signet put on CD for group heal and little tine dps boost. These 2 thing will drop your Dps lets say max 1-1,5k even if 3K you boost your group with every condi on you and your teamates. Or switching offhands for best result. > > > > Or you have bad healer but are in midlle of the run drop 1 traitline for Blood Magic-> Vampiric presence and go wells yeah you drop 5k DPS but you dont wipe. > > I think lot of people forget about this and just play what someone wrote. I mean losing 5k isnt a thing if you help other does dps. > > > > I personaly running right now more classess so necro sleeps most of the time and I using him only for daily fractals. But while playing other classes. Im getting to situations where I say to myself " kitten...If there will be good necro this stuff will be so EZ!". > > > > So my result: > > > > If I started year and something ago playing this game. In Benchmarks was 10k differences. Right now its 38(unrealistic) vs 29 realistic which is totally OK! > > Necro can bring unique buffs to team (yes not Offensive(maybe vampiric presence)) but makes everything ezier if are playing by people with brain and situational awareness. > > Necro doesn't bring unique buffs. > What are there? > VP? Pretty useless if you compare it with renegade elite. > Barriers? - some mechanics just ignore them > And that's also only if you get to play support scourge. > > So someone mentioned teapots support scourge, which isn't that good. > Especially when people have to split. Because it does literally no regeneration, has dumb delay on shade skills, so people sometimes still manage to walk out of the sand savant- shade > Then next, it's not able to keep up 25 stacks of might (not even with 80% boonduration) and doesn't give any other boons. > It can condi cleanse pretty good, and rezz people but that's it. > > > And 29k is pretty unrealistic at most bosses. Maybe at mursat overseer. Or some other very static bosses, that don't have much cleave or ambient dmg. > I would refer you to raiders, but it's broken. > Mostly because of wing 6 boss 1 > > But before that, power reaper 99th percentile was at 22-24k. So you will do that dmg on the static bosses and on other you will be at maybe 19k max? > So good luck in beating engis or thiefes with that. > > And I don't want to repeat myself, why reaper is inferior to no-kit-holo. Just scroll a bit up I thought the damage wasn't that huge in difference between reaper and all the other classes. Almost 31k is pretty close to every other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I would sure like a short-range land-spear capable of... 1. A bleed burst to prime a stack for scepter to maintain, 2. A 1 sec, fast-cast, AoE block with stability to enable a tank role, 3. A fear with a boon corrupt that can be traited to add a chill, 4. A torment and taunt in a poison field. 5. An auto-attack with slow bleed stacking and boon consumption for a small heal on every 3rd hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xxnecroxx.4039 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xxnecroxx.4039 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > > > pReaper is I dare to say Meta DPS for fractals > > > Teapot's support scourge makes every run succesfull run. > > > Condi dmg is little bit behind thats true. > > > Someone brings Viper/Grieving Condi reaper to get 30k. thats nice too. > > > > > > But to the point :) > > > One of the reasons why ppl kick necro is because...players are just dumb. Thats all. > > > If you are using brain and have some experience with game you know that benchmark is sweet wet dream that happends only with ideal setup, other good players and lot of comunication, and even then real dps drops and isnt 100% to benchmark. Which leads me to questions. > > > - how many realy good people you meet ? I'm pugging every day and I tell you if it's once per week or two its holyday. Most of the time I play with Zerker Druids and warriors that put banners and die. Players runs like chickens until first aoe pops up etc.I would say 60-30-10 kitten-casual-meta capable is the ratio. > > > > > > If you dont plan to make Speedclear records you will be pretty much OK with necro. Unlike other classes Necro(pReaper for example) can realisticly hit his 31k even in bad groups, only thing you need is fury and alacrity. even without it you can do 26-28 idk.. > > > Most Important thing is Necro have all this builds listed in those benchmarks so common dumb folks know that there are "meta builds" so you dont get insta kick if necro. > > > > > > Another thing is to necro players to improve. I see really many necros running exactly everything what is wroted in the build. (again pReaper for example Spite,SR,Reaper) > > > In 99 Fractal with toxic Trail and other condi handicap they take blood fiend, dmg well,fiend,power signet and golem. You can Swap Fiend for Well of Power and heal for another well (whirl finisher cleanse) or Vampiric Signet put on CD for group heal and little tine dps boost. These 2 thing will drop your Dps lets say max 1-1,5k even if 3K you boost your group with every condi on you and your teamates. Or switching offhands for best result. > > > > > > Or you have bad healer but are in midlle of the run drop 1 traitline for Blood Magic-> Vampiric presence and go wells yeah you drop 5k DPS but you dont wipe. > > > I think lot of people forget about this and just play what someone wrote. I mean losing 5k isnt a thing if you help other does dps. > > > > > > I personaly running right now more classess so necro sleeps most of the time and I using him only for daily fractals. But while playing other classes. Im getting to situations where I say to myself " kitten...If there will be good necro this stuff will be so EZ!". > > > > > > So my result: > > > > > > If I started year and something ago playing this game. In Benchmarks was 10k differences. Right now its 38(unrealistic) vs 29 realistic which is totally OK! > > > Necro can bring unique buffs to team (yes not Offensive(maybe vampiric presence)) but makes everything ezier if are playing by people with brain and situational awareness. > > > > Necro doesn't bring unique buffs. > > What are there? > > VP? Pretty useless if you compare it with renegade elite. > > Barriers? - some mechanics just ignore them > > And that's also only if you get to play support scourge. > > > > So someone mentioned teapots support scourge, which isn't that good. > > Especially when people have to split. Because it does literally no regeneration, has dumb delay on shade skills, so people sometimes still manage to walk out of the sand savant- shade > > Then next, it's not able to keep up 25 stacks of might (not even with 80% boonduration) and doesn't give any other boons. > > It can condi cleanse pretty good, and rezz people but that's it. > > > > > > And 29k is pretty unrealistic at most bosses. Maybe at mursat overseer. Or some other very static bosses, that don't have much cleave or ambient dmg. > > I would refer you to raiders, but it's broken. > > Mostly because of wing 6 boss 1 > > > > But before that, power reaper 99th percentile was at 22-24k. So you will do that dmg on the static bosses and on other you will be at maybe 19k max? > > So good luck in beating engis or thiefes with that. > > > > And I don't want to repeat myself, why reaper is inferior to no-kit-holo. Just scroll a bit up > > I don't get this mentality and based on the general increased acceptance of Necro in raids since the recent improvements ... neither do many other people. How does being better than someone else at anything become the litmus test for whether a class is 'good' or not? That makes no sense. necro bring lots to the table and it's not relevant if someone else does something (oe even everything) better than it; a class is not measured by the dissection of it's individual components. The whole package matters and the package we have now is good. reaper does not bring anything special to the table that another class cant do better, heals? Druid/Auramancer, Damage? burnzerker/condi ranger, Power Dmg? Zerker warrior. they don't have banners, they don't give alacrity to anyone. they don't give perma fury uptime, or comes close to the might output of PS warrior. Support they are outclassed Damage they are outclassed, Boon distribution they are out classed. THE ONLY THING that necro could potentially give is vampiric aura but that is it. also to anyone talking about this 31k Dmg for power reaper, that is POWER reaper I am complaining about CONDI Necro/Condi anything for necro which includes Reaper and scourge. but this 31k dmg is very unrealistic as it is pretty much best circumstances, perfect rotations, etc in raids where you have to deal with mechanics and human error 31k is NOT realistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > > > > pReaper is I dare to say Meta DPS for fractals > > > > Teapot's support scourge makes every run succesfull run. > > > > Condi dmg is little bit behind thats true. > > > > Someone brings Viper/Grieving Condi reaper to get 30k. thats nice too. > > > > > > > > But to the point :) > > > > One of the reasons why ppl kick necro is because...players are just dumb. Thats all. > > > > If you are using brain and have some experience with game you know that benchmark is sweet wet dream that happends only with ideal setup, other good players and lot of comunication, and even then real dps drops and isnt 100% to benchmark. Which leads me to questions. > > > > - how many realy good people you meet ? I'm pugging every day and I tell you if it's once per week or two its holyday. Most of the time I play with Zerker Druids and warriors that put banners and die. Players runs like chickens until first aoe pops up etc.I would say 60-30-10 kitten-casual-meta capable is the ratio. > > > > > > > > If you dont plan to make Speedclear records you will be pretty much OK with necro. Unlike other classes Necro(pReaper for example) can realisticly hit his 31k even in bad groups, only thing you need is fury and alacrity. even without it you can do 26-28 idk.. > > > > Most Important thing is Necro have all this builds listed in those benchmarks so common dumb folks know that there are "meta builds" so you dont get insta kick if necro. > > > > > > > > Another thing is to necro players to improve. I see really many necros running exactly everything what is wroted in the build. (again pReaper for example Spite,SR,Reaper) > > > > In 99 Fractal with toxic Trail and other condi handicap they take blood fiend, dmg well,fiend,power signet and golem. You can Swap Fiend for Well of Power and heal for another well (whirl finisher cleanse) or Vampiric Signet put on CD for group heal and little tine dps boost. These 2 thing will drop your Dps lets say max 1-1,5k even if 3K you boost your group with every condi on you and your teamates. Or switching offhands for best result. > > > > > > > > Or you have bad healer but are in midlle of the run drop 1 traitline for Blood Magic-> Vampiric presence and go wells yeah you drop 5k DPS but you dont wipe. > > > > I think lot of people forget about this and just play what someone wrote. I mean losing 5k isnt a thing if you help other does dps. > > > > > > > > I personaly running right now more classess so necro sleeps most of the time and I using him only for daily fractals. But while playing other classes. Im getting to situations where I say to myself " kitten...If there will be good necro this stuff will be so EZ!". > > > > > > > > So my result: > > > > > > > > If I started year and something ago playing this game. In Benchmarks was 10k differences. Right now its 38(unrealistic) vs 29 realistic which is totally OK! > > > > Necro can bring unique buffs to team (yes not Offensive(maybe vampiric presence)) but makes everything ezier if are playing by people with brain and situational awareness. > > > > > > Necro doesn't bring unique buffs. > > > What are there? > > > VP? Pretty useless if you compare it with renegade elite. > > > Barriers? - some mechanics just ignore them > > > And that's also only if you get to play support scourge. > > > > > > So someone mentioned teapots support scourge, which isn't that good. > > > Especially when people have to split. Because it does literally no regeneration, has dumb delay on shade skills, so people sometimes still manage to walk out of the sand savant- shade > > > Then next, it's not able to keep up 25 stacks of might (not even with 80% boonduration) and doesn't give any other boons. > > > It can condi cleanse pretty good, and rezz people but that's it. > > > > > > > > > And 29k is pretty unrealistic at most bosses. Maybe at mursat overseer. Or some other very static bosses, that don't have much cleave or ambient dmg. > > > I would refer you to raiders, but it's broken. > > > Mostly because of wing 6 boss 1 > > > > > > But before that, power reaper 99th percentile was at 22-24k. So you will do that dmg on the static bosses and on other you will be at maybe 19k max? > > > So good luck in beating engis or thiefes with that. > > > > > > And I don't want to repeat myself, why reaper is inferior to no-kit-holo. Just scroll a bit up > > > > I don't get this mentality and based on the general increased acceptance of Necro in raids since the recent improvements ... neither do many other people. How does being better than someone else at anything become the litmus test for whether a class is 'good' or not? That makes no sense. necro bring lots to the table and it's not relevant if someone else does something (oe even everything) better than it; a class is not measured by the dissection of it's individual components. The whole package matters and the package we have now is good. > > reaper does not bring anything special to the table that another class cant do better, heals? Druid/Auramancer, Damage? burnzerker/condi ranger, Power Dmg? Zerker warrior. they don't have banners, they don't give alacrity to anyone. they don't give perma fury uptime, or comes close to the might output of PS warrior. Support they are outclassed Damage they are outclassed, Boon distribution they are out classed. THE ONLY THING that necro could potentially give is vampiric aura but that is it. Necro is doing better than it has been for a long time and people are more accepting of them. I'm willing to bet that most people could care less about any of that ... as long as they don't feel like second class citizens playing their necros. The BIGGEST impact those things have will be on how necro is viewed in highly optimized raid /fractal runs ... and to be frank, I doubt that class of player care about favourites and personal preference; they play for maximum effect and play anything to get it. > also to anyone talking about this 31k Dmg for power reaper, that is POWER reaper I am complaining about CONDI Necro/Condi anything for necro which includes Reaper and scourge. Again, a class being in a good place doesn't mean you can take any build you choose and it's a good build. We get you don't like the state of condi necro ... but that's not relevant to the current state of the class or this thread IMO. You're about 6 years too late to the party; the game has optimized builds and has since the beginning ... this isn't one of them for Necro right now. That can change; it has in the past. It's not going to change because people want it to. > but this 31k dmg is very unrealistic as it is pretty much best circumstances, perfect rotations, etc in raids where you have to deal with mechanics and human error 31k is NOT realistic ... that's the same for any OTHER of the classes and their benchmarks as well. The point is, if 31K is unrealistic for a Reaper in real game conditions, then it's reasonable to say that the benchmarks for the other classes are unrealistic for the same reason. The benchmarks are estimates, but they are relevant if one wants an idea of how various builds perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhawb.7408 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Necromancer is decent enough that you don't feel like you're handicapping yourself for no reason. Also, Reaper and Scourge actually have very fun, interesting synergies with the rest of the profession that make them feel fun. You actually feel like things are working together for your benefit, rather than Core necro feeling like you need to constantly work around the deficiencies to do something. That said, Core necro still has some heavy spots that feel bad to play, regardless of power. Staff is still the single most boring combat design in any game I've ever played. You'd have to go out of your way to make a weapon feel worse than staff. And Core shroud and some core builds in general still feel a bit clunky. They've been mostly brought up to the standard of launch, but it just doesn't remotely compare to how fluid Reaper Shroud and Shade feels. But as long as you mostly stick to Reaper/Scourge, Necro feels better than it ever has. I genuinely enjoy playing again, which is saying something. But I really only mess around in PvP with friends anymore, I cba to get into WvW/PvE, so that does bias me a certain way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > reaper does not bring anything special to the table that another class cant do better, heals? Druid/Auramancer, Damage? burnzerker/condi ranger, Power Dmg? Zerker warrior. they don't have banners, they don't give alacrity to anyone. they don't give perma fury uptime, or comes close to the might output of PS warrior. Support they are outclassed Damage they are outclassed, Boon distribution they are out classed. THE ONLY THING that necro could potentially give is vampiric aura but that is it. also to anyone talking about this 31k Dmg for power reaper, that is POWER reaper I am complaining about CONDI Necro/Condi anything for necro which includes Reaper and scourge. but this 31k dmg is very unrealistic as it is pretty much best circumstances, perfect rotations, etc in raids where you have to deal with mechanics and human error 31k is NOT realistic The issue is that you look at the necromancer in a very narrow way. You look at scourge the same way gw1 players used to look at protect monk. You basically think that it is useless compared to the heal monk, however, as someone that played protect monk, I can assure you that our group would have never complete any dungeon without me as a protect monk. Protect monk also just happened to be very good at tanking/soloing dungeons. The point is that the necromancer take on from the protect monk. It can take quite the beating and protect it's allies. The necromancer isn't bad at healing, it was already good at that way before HoT and PoF just happened to strengthen that aspect. Like you say, power reaper is now almost there as well. As for condi damage, I already answered your griefs. You claim to use an optimized build, but don't seem to understand that the strength of the necromancer when it come to condi damage isn't it's burst but the stability of it's damages due to the length of it's condi duration. Which mean that the condi necromancer will suffer less damage loss in a realistic fight than any other profession, making it's dps steadier. And, like I said, if you feel that you struggle to kill trash mobs it's because you only lack burst and the best way to correct that if you use viper gear like you claim, is to stop using _dhuumfire_ and go for _death perception_ instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catchyfx.5768 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Warrning! I think condi necro will never be Best DPS spec thanks to EPI. It will brake the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap Necro is designed to eat damage other professions cannot. That is the purpose of shroud. Balance has to include that. Spending LF to survive and ressurect team members is Necromancer's niche. Necro *is* a PUG-support profession, now, with Blood Magic and Scourge. It may not be glamorous but it *is* a thing. p.s. Master of conditions has not been Necro's domain for years. That is something the profession lost as each of the others were given their own, which was a good thing for the game. However, some strong boon-hate was given as a compromise. Arenanet is aware of the rampant boon generation and many professions' dependency on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catchyfx.5768 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > p.s. > Master of conditions has not been Necro's domain for years. That is something the profession lost as each of the others were given their own, which was a good thing for the game. > Not Master of Conditions but Condi Manipulation I would say is cool. Skills that changes condi on you and teamates to boons are really strong. But I get what you pointed here :) and I agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap > > Necro is designed to eat damage other professions cannot. That is the purpose of shroud. Balance has to include that. It shouldn't be "cannot". It should be "don't have to" Necro is Designed to eat damage other professions don't have to eat, because of their blocks, evades and invulns or mobility. > > Spending LF to survive and ressurect team members is Necromancer's niche. Necro *is* a PUG-support profession, now, with Blood Magic and Scourge. It may not be glamorous but it *is* a thing. > > p.s. > Master of conditions has not been Necro's domain for years. That is something the profession lost as each of the others were given their own, which was a good thing for the game. > > However, some strong boon-hate was given as a compromise. Arenanet is aware of the rampant boon generation and many professions' dependency on them. It's good that they started to add bosses in raids with boons (mainly dhuum and largos) But they don't apply boons frequently enough to, so that necro gets real good there. You can just take a Condi rev, that will do more overall dmg than necro to strip those boons. Fractals is a very good example. There necro is good and can carry a lot of players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap > > > > Necro is designed to eat damage other professions cannot. That is the purpose of shroud. Balance has to include that. > > It shouldn't be "cannot". It should be "don't have to" Again ... not everyone plays in the top 1% percentile. Sure, there is a SMALL percent of people who play in the range where they can avoid lots of damage, which renders some of the Scourge toolset not useful. For the mere mortals where it's 'cannot', it's a good and welcome approach in teams. It's not a good strategy to avoid recognizing the useful aspects of necro to push an agenda that it's a deficient class. That's not realistic. >You can just take a Condi rev, that will do more overall dmg than necro to strip those boons. Again ... the game isn't changed based on 'the best' or the idea that a class is deficient by dissecting an individual ability. You seem to have a fixation on this line of logic. The problem is that it fails because you don't need 'the best' to be successful in this game. The threshold for success is low enough to allow players lots of freedom in choices. That's why it's unlikely a class will get a change because it's not 'the best' at something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > you don't need 'the best' to be successful in this game. The threshold for success is low enough to allow players lots of freedom in choices. That's why it's unlikely a class will get a change because it's not 'the best' at something. I agree with that but your profession need to be the best or at least acceptable in end game content for example last night i joined a raid LFG for full clear W6 and i pinged KP for 5 times clears but they all say we dont want to carry a necro and start to give me an example of current necromancer benchmark and i told them just give me one try if i dont get first or second DPS then kick me but they say its a wast of time and kick me any way then after that i started a LFG for full clear W6 and did it then i pinged the new KP to the commander who kicked me and told him that a prof that necromancer can do a full W6 clear but he said the necro in W6 will delay the boss kill by 30 second because of his low DPS so i will never do a W6 with a necro and all will do the same in the future PS i have a pictures for that conversation if you need a prof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apokriphos.7042 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > you don't need 'the best' to be successful in this game. The threshold for success is low enough to allow players lots of freedom in choices. That's why it's unlikely a class will get a change because it's not 'the best' at something. > > I agree with that but your profession need to be the best or at least acceptable in end game content > for example last night i joined a raid LFG for full clear W6 and i pinged KP for 5 times clears but they all say we dont want to carry a necro and start to give me an example of current necromancer benchmark and i told them just give me one try if i dont get first or second DPS then kick me but they say its a wast of time and kick me any way > then after that i started a LFG for full clear W6 and did it then i pinged the new KP to the commander who kicked me and told him that a prof that necromancer can do a full W6 clear but he said the necro in W6 will delay the boss kill by 30 second because of his low DPS so i will never do a W6 with a necro and all will do the same in the future > > PS > i have a pictures for that conversation if you need a prof > > You shouldn't post this in the necromancer forum where it will get ignored and buried. You should post it as a short and sweet story with the screenshots front and center, player names removed. I experienced this exact situation myself recently and it is agregious that arena net thinks necromancer fits a role in pick up group raids. All evidence I have seen firsthand points to the contrary, which is a point toward increasing necromancer damage, if not sustain as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > you don't need 'the best' to be successful in this game. The threshold for success is low enough to allow players lots of freedom in choices. That's why it's unlikely a class will get a change because it's not 'the best' at something. > > I agree with that but your profession need to be the best or at least acceptable in end game content It is ... it just depends who you play with. That's ALWAYS been the case in this game, regardless of what content. This can't be simply ignored because it's unlikely Anet changes the game to cater to the few people that leave their WoW baggage behind ... in direct opposition to how the whole game is designed (which is why it appeals to it's current playerbase) in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > I just want to say this, ALL MY POSTS about necro feeling weak is using the "optimized" condi reaper class with all ascended armor with mostly vipers, etc. also the whole PVP/PVE balance just make a BIGGER difference between PVE balance and PVP. Anet has already shown they can have classes act differently between game modes, just make it a even BIGGER leap > > > > > > Necro is designed to eat damage other professions cannot. That is the purpose of shroud. Balance has to include that. > > > > It shouldn't be "cannot". It should be "don't have to" > > Again ... not everyone plays in the top 1% percentile. Sure, there is a SMALL percent of people who play in the range where they can avoid lots of damage, which renders some of the Scourge toolset not useful. For the mere mortals where it's 'cannot', it's a good and welcome approach in teams. You really don't get it huh? I'm not talking about the top 1% of players. Even average players know how to use dodge, block or invuln abilities. So yes, I'm repeating myself: necro needs to eat dmg other classes don't have to eat. That's at least the first thing that counts, if you fail all of the possibilities on another class, then it might be: necro can eat dmg that other classes cannot. But that's also not true as there exists warrior with the same healthpool. > > It's not a good strategy to avoid recognizing the useful aspects of necro to push an agenda that it's a deficient class. That's not realistic. > > >You can just take a Condi rev, that will do more overall dmg than necro to strip those boons. > > Again ... the game isn't changed based on 'the best' or the idea that a class is deficient by dissecting an individual ability. You seem to have a fixation on this line of logic. The problem is that it fails because you don't need 'the best' to be successful in this game. The threshold for success is low enough to allow players lots of freedom in choices. That's why it's unlikely a class will get a change because it's not 'the best' at something. Ok let me explain this: It's more likely to fail mechanics than to fail doing dmg for the players you are referring to. Why do you think everyone is looking for the highest possible DPS classes? Because you can skip mechanics with high DPS, so you don't have to do them. Take gorseval as example: Why don't groups do updraft? Because it's easier to stand in the middle of the platform, doing damage Than doing the updraft mechanic, jumping out and flying back in. Its more likely to loose people with the updraft than with the other tactic. And then fail the boss encounter. In order to 100% complete mechanics like this, you need those top players you are referring to. So I guess you got no point here. So let's go to snowcrows site and take a look: Necro: ranked good in 6 out of 19 bosses and ranked meta in 2 (taking all builds available) Then take power engi: ranked meta for 9 bosses and good at 3 bosses (12 out of 19 and just for the power build) Now there's 4 ways to make necros more accepted in raids: 1. Slightly Nerf top DPS classes 2. Slightly Buff necro 3. Remove dps-meter as well as golem testing room from the game, so benchmarks aren't possible anymore 4. Remove damage-checks and enrage timers from bosses And theres not only necro. There's also mirage, that is a problem. While it overperforms at 4 bosses, it's really bad at all other bosses. Don't get me wrong, it would be ok, if there was something like: Boss A guard is very good Boss B Thief Boss C mesmer Boss D necro And so on. So that there's a healthy balance. But right now you will just take engi for 2/3 of the bosses and you are fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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