brappish.8715 Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce so maybe thats the mirage you speak of thats OP > > I used it when learning mirage myself, then moved away from it into my own non meta DPS build as I enjoyed some of the mechanics (moved from Daredevil) I'm guessing you also don't play in a very high bracket of spvp also. Seeing as its brain-dead to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 > @"brappish.8715" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce so maybe thats the mirage you speak of thats OP > > > > I used it when learning mirage myself, then moved away from it into my own non meta DPS build as I enjoyed some of the mechanics (moved from Daredevil) > > I'm guessing you also don't play in a very high bracket of spvp also. Seeing as its brain-dead to you. Its no secret that competitive people tend to play what they find the easiest with most impact. Condi Mirage is super easy to play and has a great impact in terms of what its supposed to do. It over performs...which is also not a secret. On equal skill....a condi mirage will win a majority of their encounters (not all, but a majority) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brappish.8715 Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 its easy to play at silver to gold. Its pretty much uselss after that unless the team comp is good. So my statement still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce. It isn't , thanks bye. (me too can produce good argumentation versus empty content (aka the I want to win versus everythings with little effort syndrome so I impose my top player feeling to everyone.).) >Its no secret that competitive people tend to play what they find the easiest with most impact. it's right. >Condi Mirage is super easy to play and has a great impact in terms of what its supposed to do. It over performs...which is also not a secret. On equal skill....a condi mirage will win a majority of their encounters (not all, but a majority) Yeah that's why every AT, mAT and leaderboard is full of mirage, it has soooo much impact ! (someone tells me in the headset that it's not the reality.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlette.9684 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce. > It isn't , thanks bye. (me too can produce good argumentation versus empty content (aka the I want to win versus everythings with little effort syndrome so I impose my top player feeling to everyone.).) > >Its no secret that competitive people tend to play what they find the easiest with most impact. > it's right. > >Condi Mirage is super easy to play and has a great impact in terms of what its supposed to do. It over performs...which is also not a secret. On equal skill....a condi mirage will win a majority of their encounters (not all, but a majority) > Yeah that's why every AT, mAT and leaderboard is full of mirage, it has soooo much impact ! (someone tells me in the headset that it's not the reality.) > > > > Take note that these guys are EU and we play NA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"Arlette.9684" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce. > > It isn't , thanks bye. (me too can produce good argumentation versus empty content (aka the I want to win versus everythings with little effort syndrome so I impose my top player feeling to everyone.).) > > >Its no secret that competitive people tend to play what they find the easiest with most impact. > > it's right. > > >Condi Mirage is super easy to play and has a great impact in terms of what its supposed to do. It over performs...which is also not a secret. On equal skill....a condi mirage will win a majority of their encounters (not all, but a majority) > > Yeah that's why every AT, mAT and leaderboard is full of mirage, it has soooo much impact ! (someone tells me in the headset that it's not the reality.) > > > > > > > > > > Take note that these guys are EU and we play NA. That actually explains a lot with Viquing. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 I have wierd feeling about NA and EU thing. We dont have invasion of mesmers . If you look at leaderboard its filled with various things. You wont find too much mesmers . Neither AT doesnt go with double mesmers .Sometimes team w/o mesmers win AT . Do we need separate balance for NA and EU? :trollface: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"Arlette.9684" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce. > > It isn't , thanks bye. (me too can produce good argumentation versus empty content (aka the I want to win versus everythings with little effort syndrome so I impose my top player feeling to everyone.).) > > >Its no secret that competitive people tend to play what they find the easiest with most impact. > > it's right. > > >Condi Mirage is super easy to play and has a great impact in terms of what its supposed to do. It over performs...which is also not a secret. On equal skill....a condi mirage will win a majority of their encounters (not all, but a majority) > > Yeah that's why every AT, mAT and leaderboard is full of mirage, it has soooo much impact ! (someone tells me in the headset that it's not the reality.) > > > > > > > > > > Take note that these guys are EU and we play NA. NA leaderboard isn't filled with Mesmers either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brappish.8715 Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 They're stealing our jobs! Yes Todd, Sandeep the neuroscientist is stealing your job truck driving. This equates to the same level of ridiculousness as the statement: "Mesmer is op" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlette.9684 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 > @"phokus.8934" said: > > @"Arlette.9684" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce. > > > It isn't , thanks bye. (me too can produce good argumentation versus empty content (aka the I want to win versus everythings with little effort syndrome so I impose my top player feeling to everyone.).) > > > >Its no secret that competitive people tend to play what they find the easiest with most impact. > > > it's right. > > > >Condi Mirage is super easy to play and has a great impact in terms of what its supposed to do. It over performs...which is also not a secret. On equal skill....a condi mirage will win a majority of their encounters (not all, but a majority) > > > Yeah that's why every AT, mAT and leaderboard is full of mirage, it has soooo much impact ! (someone tells me in the headset that it's not the reality.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take note that these guys are EU and we play NA. > NA leaderboard isn't filled with Mesmers either. > I know, that's not what I was going for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Mirage is utterly broken by design, and it will stay broken by design for as long as it can use skills while evading that were not designed to be used while evading. Mirage should only be able to use while evading the same skills core mesmer can use while evading, like shatters and teleport, its deception skills, and ambushes. Nothing else should be usable while evading, because that translates in way too much uptime of uninterruptible skill activations. That just has to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jportell.2197 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > Mirage is utterly broken by design, and it will stay broken by design for as long as it can use skills while evading that were not designed to be used while evading. > > Mirage should only be able to use while evading the same skills core mesmer can use while evading, like shatters and teleport, its deception skills, and ambushes. > > Nothing else should be usable while evading, because that translates in way too much uptime of uninterruptible skill activations. > > That just has to stop. Then just delete the spec and start from the ground up. Seriously all these people whining about mirages when literally every class in the game gas built in skills to help deal with mirage be it resistance or insane condi clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 > @"jportell.2197" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > Mirage is utterly broken by design, and it will stay broken by design for as long as it can use skills while evading that were not designed to be used while evading. > > > > Mirage should only be able to use while evading the same skills core mesmer can use while evading, like shatters and teleport, its deception skills, and ambushes. > > > > Nothing else should be usable while evading, because that translates in way too much uptime of uninterruptible skill activations. > > > > That just has to stop. > > Then just delete the spec and start from the ground up. Seriously all these people whining about mirages when literally every class in the game gas built in skills to help deal with mirage be it resistance or insane condi clear. A landlord going "I am tired of the incessant whining of this one tenant, I'm going to burn the building!" when that tenant keeps going "We have to repair this pipe or the building will flood" is nothing but preposterous. What you do is fix that pipe. Then go back to listen to the tenants again. Being a landlord is a full time job that never ends. And the whining will never end either. The issue is pretty simple: Mirages are meant to use some skills while evading to make it harder to determine which one is the real mirage. But what was done to allow them to do so also allowed them to use too many skills while evading. No profession should be able to avoid being interrupted that much regardless of elite specialization. The solution is simple. It only needs to lose the ability to use while evading skills not meant to be used while evading. Just that. Ambushes, deceptions, and any of the many core skills that can already be used while evading would be completely unaffected. It'll be mostly skills like weapon phantasms with long activation times. To avoid getting those interrupted, mesmers have Distortion to become invulnerable, and quickness to activate them faster. That's the tool to use in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"jportell.2197" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > Mirage is utterly broken by design, and it will stay broken by design for as long as it can use skills while evading that were not designed to be used while evading. > > > > > > Mirage should only be able to use while evading the same skills core mesmer can use while evading, like shatters and teleport, its deception skills, and ambushes. > > > > > > Nothing else should be usable while evading, because that translates in way too much uptime of uninterruptible skill activations. > > > > > > That just has to stop. > > > > Then just delete the spec and start from the ground up. Seriously all these people whining about mirages when literally every class in the game gas built in skills to help deal with mirage be it resistance or insane condi clear. > > A landlord going "I am tired of the incessant whining of this one tenant, I'm going to burn the building!" when that tenant keeps going "We have to repair this pipe or the building will flood" is nothing but preposterous. > What you do is fix that pipe. Then go back to listen to the tenants again. Being a landlord is a full time job that never ends. And the whining will never end either. > > The issue is pretty simple: Mirages are meant to use some skills while evading to make it harder to determine which one is the real mirage. But what was done to allow them to do so also allowed them to use too many skills while evading. > > No profession should be able to avoid being interrupted that much regardless of elite specialization. > > The solution is simple. It only needs to lose the ability to use while evading skills not meant to be used while evading. > > Just that. Ambushes, deceptions, and any of the many core skills that can already be used while evading would be completely unaffected. > It'll be mostly skills like weapon phantasms with long activation times. To avoid getting those interrupted, mesmers have Distortion to become invulnerable, and quickness to activate them faster. That's the tool to use in that case. It was always meant to use any skill it wants while evading. Your suggestion would make mirage completely unviable in PvE and PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > @"jportell.2197" said: > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > Mirage is utterly broken by design, and it will stay broken by design for as long as it can use skills while evading that were not designed to be used while evading. > > > > > > > > Mirage should only be able to use while evading the same skills core mesmer can use while evading, like shatters and teleport, its deception skills, and ambushes. > > > > > > > > Nothing else should be usable while evading, because that translates in way too much uptime of uninterruptible skill activations. > > > > > > > > That just has to stop. > > > > > > Then just delete the spec and start from the ground up. Seriously all these people whining about mirages when literally every class in the game gas built in skills to help deal with mirage be it resistance or insane condi clear. > > > > A landlord going "I am tired of the incessant whining of this one tenant, I'm going to burn the building!" when that tenant keeps going "We have to repair this pipe or the building will flood" is nothing but preposterous. > > What you do is fix that pipe. Then go back to listen to the tenants again. Being a landlord is a full time job that never ends. And the whining will never end either. > > > > The issue is pretty simple: Mirages are meant to use some skills while evading to make it harder to determine which one is the real mirage. But what was done to allow them to do so also allowed them to use too many skills while evading. > > > > No profession should be able to avoid being interrupted that much regardless of elite specialization. > > > > The solution is simple. It only needs to lose the ability to use while evading skills not meant to be used while evading. > > > > Just that. Ambushes, deceptions, and any of the many core skills that can already be used while evading would be completely unaffected. > > It'll be mostly skills like weapon phantasms with long activation times. To avoid getting those interrupted, mesmers have Distortion to become invulnerable, and quickness to activate them faster. That's the tool to use in that case. > > It was always meant to use any skill it wants while evading. Your suggestion would make mirage completely unviable in PvE and PvP. No, it would not. Imagine if warriors got 100% uptime for their stances. And someone came and said "That should not happen". Anyone saying that reducing the duration of warrior stances back to not having 100% uptime would make them completely unviable in PvE and PvP would be out of their mind. Core mesmer has survived for ages without that much uninterruptable uptime. They would not be losing anything that they should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > @"jportell.2197" said: > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > Mirage is utterly broken by design, and it will stay broken by design for as long as it can use skills while evading that were not designed to be used while evading. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage should only be able to use while evading the same skills core mesmer can use while evading, like shatters and teleport, its deception skills, and ambushes. > > > > > > > > > > Nothing else should be usable while evading, because that translates in way too much uptime of uninterruptible skill activations. > > > > > > > > > > That just has to stop. > > > > > > > > Then just delete the spec and start from the ground up. Seriously all these people whining about mirages when literally every class in the game gas built in skills to help deal with mirage be it resistance or insane condi clear. > > > > > > A landlord going "I am tired of the incessant whining of this one tenant, I'm going to burn the building!" when that tenant keeps going "We have to repair this pipe or the building will flood" is nothing but preposterous. > > > What you do is fix that pipe. Then go back to listen to the tenants again. Being a landlord is a full time job that never ends. And the whining will never end either. > > > > > > The issue is pretty simple: Mirages are meant to use some skills while evading to make it harder to determine which one is the real mirage. But what was done to allow them to do so also allowed them to use too many skills while evading. > > > > > > No profession should be able to avoid being interrupted that much regardless of elite specialization. > > > > > > The solution is simple. It only needs to lose the ability to use while evading skills not meant to be used while evading. > > > > > > Just that. Ambushes, deceptions, and any of the many core skills that can already be used while evading would be completely unaffected. > > > It'll be mostly skills like weapon phantasms with long activation times. To avoid getting those interrupted, mesmers have Distortion to become invulnerable, and quickness to activate them faster. That's the tool to use in that case. > > > > It was always meant to use any skill it wants while evading. Your suggestion would make mirage completely unviable in PvE and PvP. > > No, it would not. Imagine if warriors got 100% uptime for their stances. And someone came and said "That should not happen". Anyone saying that reducing the duration of warrior stances back to not having 100% uptime would make them completely unviable in PvE and PvP would be out of their mind. > > Core mesmer has survived for ages without that much uninterruptable uptime. They would not be losing anything that they should have. Mirage cloak is not comparable to permanent damage reversal with Defensive Stance that perhaps the most hyperbolic statement about balance I have ever heard. Core mesmer hasn't been anywhere near close to meta since Heart of Thorns. It's a dead spec competitively and was barely a thing in PvE during Heart of Thorns. Like 26k dps barely hanging on to the meta of that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. Nothing will ever change that. Dancing around the subject won't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > Nothing will ever change that. > Dancing around the subject won't change that. The whole class is designed around that and being able to perform actions while dodging. Mirage's uses dodge as an offensive tool more than anything. With that, Vigor was nerfed for Mesmer and Mirage so Mirage sustain took a pretty significant hit. Honestly, you just don't know what Mirage does other than they can dodge while performing an action. And you don't see any counter to them because you're running around with blinders like 99% of the people who complain about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > Nothing will ever change that. > Dancing around the subject won't change that. I don't think you have actually played mirage then. Most ambush skills have a longer casting time than the mirage cloak so nearly if not all ambush skills are interruptable towards the end of their cast. Of course we're assuming you're a human that's playing with perhaps a 60-100 ping and average reaction speeds of 150-250ms meaning you generally activate an ambush 0.2s into the mirage cloak or even 0.3s in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > Nothing will ever change that. > Dancing around the subject won't change that. Its funny you mention "that much time of uninterruptability". If a mirage set themselves up with as much endurance regen/vigor and evades and went into a fight with it...you would be surprised how easy the fight would be. They would literally blow everything they can to achieve such. Its also not as much (time wise) "uninterruptability" as you think. No mirage would run max "uninterruptability" as its not a viable PvP or WvW build. As for your previous comment on some skills not meant to be used while evading...unless you are an ANet dev, you actually cannot truthfully claim that. Maybe they had plans at some point that a class like mirage would break that barrier. If you are going to continue to argue, please stop sounding like a broken record with the while "skills while evading" approach (esp where you started there, then evolved to "only some skills should be used while dodging". We're all up for constructive debates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > Nothing will ever change that. > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > I don't think you have actually played mirage then. Most ambush skills have a longer casting time than the mirage cloak so nearly if not all ambush skills are interruptable towards the end of their cast. Of course we're assuming you're a human that's playing with perhaps a 60-100 ping and average reaction speeds of 150-250ms meaning you generally activate an ambush 0.2s into the mirage cloak or even 0.3s in. The end of the cast is not the problem, it's the start. Mirages can cover too many of their activation starts. > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > Nothing will ever change that. > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > Its funny you mention "that much time of uninterruptability". If a mirage set themselves up with as much endurance regen/vigor and evades and went into a fight with it...you would be surprised how easy the fight would be. They would literally blow everything they can to achieve such. Its also not as much (time wise) "uninterruptability" as you think. No mirage would run max "uninterruptability" as its not a viable PvP or WvW build. > > As for your previous comment on some skills not meant to be used while evading...unless you are an ANet dev, you actually cannot truthfully claim that. Maybe they had plans at some point that a class like mirage would break that barrier. > > If you are going to continue to argue, please stop sounding like a broken record with the while "skills while evading" approach (esp where you started there, then evolved to "only some skills should be used while dodging". We're all up for constructive debates. There's no need to be an anet dev. Because it's in the design. A skill not meant to be used while evading will have an activation or channeling time, often an aftercast time too. Trying to evade while it's being activated or channeled will interrupt it. The 3 Daredevil dodge replacer traits will respect that, but Mirage's won't. That has to change to how it should have been from the start. Using a core weapon or utility skill with an activation time during a mirage evade should queue the skill to be activated when the dodge ends, not use it right away while evading. That's all. If I sound like a broken record is because there's nothing else to the issue. People either say there's no issue, or act as if they thought they have seen the issues, but those having issues against mirage show with what the explain that their activation while evading is the issue. It's not their access to conditions, it's not their weapon or utility skills, it's not their traits, it's not some combination with stats or upgrades. It's that they can cover too many of their activations to avoid getting them disabled with effects like stuns or blind way more often than anyone else. They can use too many skills while evading. Denying it more times or repeating it more times won't change how that is. But if people keep denying it, we'll just have to keep repeating it until people stop sweating bullets looking to the sides with shifty eyes trying to find some sort of excuse and scapegoat, and reality finally sinks in. There's nothing "OP" about mirage. Their evade just allows them to do something no one should be able to do. That has to be fixed. Once that's fixed, balance can resume as usual. Then we can focus on reworking stealth across the board. But first things first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > > Nothing will ever change that. > > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > > > I don't think you have actually played mirage then. Most ambush skills have a longer casting time than the mirage cloak so nearly if not all ambush skills are interruptable towards the end of their cast. Of course we're assuming you're a human that's playing with perhaps a 60-100 ping and average reaction speeds of 150-250ms meaning you generally activate an ambush 0.2s into the mirage cloak or even 0.3s in. > > The end of the cast is not the problem, it's the start. Mirages can cover too many of their activation starts. > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > > Nothing will ever change that. > > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > > > Its funny you mention "that much time of uninterruptability". If a mirage set themselves up with as much endurance regen/vigor and evades and went into a fight with it...you would be surprised how easy the fight would be. They would literally blow everything they can to achieve such. Its also not as much (time wise) "uninterruptability" as you think. No mirage would run max "uninterruptability" as its not a viable PvP or WvW build. > > > > As for your previous comment on some skills not meant to be used while evading...unless you are an ANet dev, you actually cannot truthfully claim that. Maybe they had plans at some point that a class like mirage would break that barrier. > > > > If you are going to continue to argue, please stop sounding like a broken record with the while "skills while evading" approach (esp where you started there, then evolved to "only some skills should be used while dodging". We're all up for constructive debates. > > There's no need to be an anet dev. Because it's in the design. A skill not meant to be used while evading will have an activation or channeling time, often an aftercast time too. Trying to evade while it's being activated or channeled will interrupt it. The 3 Daredevil dodge replacer traits will respect that, but Mirage's won't. That has to change to how it should have been from the start. Using a core weapon or utility skill with an activation time during a mirage evade should queue the skill to be activated when the dodge ends, not use it right away while evading. That's all. > > If I sound like a broken record is because there's nothing else to the issue. People either say there's no issue, or act as if they thought they have seen the issues, but those having issues against mirage show with what the explain that their activation while evading is the issue. It's not their access to conditions, it's not their weapon or utility skills, it's not their traits, it's not some combination with stats or upgrades. > It's that they can cover too many of their activations to avoid getting them disabled with effects like stuns or blind way more often than anyone else. > > They can use too many skills while evading. Denying it more times or repeating it more times won't change how that is. But if people keep denying it, we'll just have to keep repeating it until people stop sweating bullets looking to the sides with shifty eyes trying to find some sort of excuse and scapegoat, and reality finally sinks in. > > There's nothing "OP" about mirage. Their evade just allows them to do something no one should be able to do. That has to be fixed. Once that's fixed, balance can resume as usual. > > Then we can focus on reworking stealth across the board. But first things first. Thats the thing, there isnt an issue. This is working as intended as well as part of the concept of a Mirage. It was created to be able to do this. You post in a Mesmer forum hoping that the majority would be on your side. This would actually be better in the WvW and/or PvP forums where you may get a bunch of people to agree with you. Its like going to Quebec (Canada) and saying Poutine sucks, or going to Boston and saying the red socks suck. Fact of the matter is that this is how the devs wanted Mirage to act. I personally think barrier is OP, however I understand the concept and accept it and moved on. Why haven't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > > > Nothing will ever change that. > > > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > > > > > I don't think you have actually played mirage then. Most ambush skills have a longer casting time than the mirage cloak so nearly if not all ambush skills are interruptable towards the end of their cast. Of course we're assuming you're a human that's playing with perhaps a 60-100 ping and average reaction speeds of 150-250ms meaning you generally activate an ambush 0.2s into the mirage cloak or even 0.3s in. > > > > The end of the cast is not the problem, it's the start. Mirages can cover too many of their activation starts. > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > > > Nothing will ever change that. > > > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > > > > > Its funny you mention "that much time of uninterruptability". If a mirage set themselves up with as much endurance regen/vigor and evades and went into a fight with it...you would be surprised how easy the fight would be. They would literally blow everything they can to achieve such. Its also not as much (time wise) "uninterruptability" as you think. No mirage would run max "uninterruptability" as its not a viable PvP or WvW build. > > > > > > As for your previous comment on some skills not meant to be used while evading...unless you are an ANet dev, you actually cannot truthfully claim that. Maybe they had plans at some point that a class like mirage would break that barrier. > > > > > > If you are going to continue to argue, please stop sounding like a broken record with the while "skills while evading" approach (esp where you started there, then evolved to "only some skills should be used while dodging". We're all up for constructive debates. > > > > There's no need to be an anet dev. Because it's in the design. A skill not meant to be used while evading will have an activation or channeling time, often an aftercast time too. Trying to evade while it's being activated or channeled will interrupt it. The 3 Daredevil dodge replacer traits will respect that, but Mirage's won't. That has to change to how it should have been from the start. Using a core weapon or utility skill with an activation time during a mirage evade should queue the skill to be activated when the dodge ends, not use it right away while evading. That's all. > > > > If I sound like a broken record is because there's nothing else to the issue. People either say there's no issue, or act as if they thought they have seen the issues, but those having issues against mirage show with what the explain that their activation while evading is the issue. It's not their access to conditions, it's not their weapon or utility skills, it's not their traits, it's not some combination with stats or upgrades. > > It's that they can cover too many of their activations to avoid getting them disabled with effects like stuns or blind way more often than anyone else. > > > > They can use too many skills while evading. Denying it more times or repeating it more times won't change how that is. But if people keep denying it, we'll just have to keep repeating it until people stop sweating bullets looking to the sides with shifty eyes trying to find some sort of excuse and scapegoat, and reality finally sinks in. > > > > There's nothing "OP" about mirage. Their evade just allows them to do something no one should be able to do. That has to be fixed. Once that's fixed, balance can resume as usual. > > > > Then we can focus on reworking stealth across the board. But first things first. > > Thats the thing, there isnt an issue. This is working as intended as well as part of the concept of a Mirage. It was created to be able to do this. You post in a Mesmer forum hoping that the majority would be on your side. This would actually be better in the WvW and/or PvP forums where you may get a bunch of people to agree with you. Its like going to Quebec (Canada) and saying Poutine sucks, or going to Boston and saying the red socks suck. > > Fact of the matter is that this is how the devs wanted Mirage to act. I personally think barrier is OP, however I understand the concept and accept it and moved on. > > Why haven't you? I haven't because I can't. I see what I see. I see that the sky looks blue. And I know why it looks blue. And if someone comes and tells me it's actually pink with green polka dots that will make me raise an eyebrown and wonder why they think that way, not make me change my mind. For example, you yourself admit that you think barrier is OP. But it isn't. Barrier itself isn't a problem. Any problems involving barrier always happen because of how it's used it isn't being fully used the way it should. It's actually a mechanic I had suggested for ages and that GW2 direly needed since forever, but it's still incomplete. It's missing variables it should have. All barriers have a fixed 5s duration, and a fixed 50% max HP cap. Those values should be able to vary between skills. Some should not be able to give more than 10% max hp , some should be able to give longer barriers or even permanent ones that stay until depleted (obviosuly a barrier that would last indefinitely would have a very small cap). Look at scourges. they can spam barrier way too much, while keeping too much of their other powers, their full power needs to be partially moved to traits, and split between their 3 Grandmaster traits, so a scourge that focuses on Barrier can't also fully focus on conversion spam or condition spam. This applies to all professions. Nobody should be able too many things too well at the same time. And other professions haven't received as much of it as they should. Barrier has been added too sparingly. Barrier should not just be an addition. It should have been replacing some heals, turning a permanent heal into a partial temporary barrier. And it should have been available more often as a cover to pre-emtively 'heal' before receiving a burst of damage. The addition of barrier to Scrapper was a ray of hope, though. It has been done mostly right. I would add some barrier to Med Kit blaster when traited with Health Insurance while using it on allies that are at full health, tho. And let's not forget the game has been getting too spikey and bursty lately. Replacing heals with barrier is something that needs to happen along an overall reduction of fast damage bursts. Rather than having people quickly and easily recovering to full heal with healing effects, resetting fights too often, part of that would change to barriers that go away, bringing back much needed attrition combat and tiring the enemy. But OP? Nope. Not at all. Removing barrier would be as much of a mistake as removing stealth, evades or downed states just because some people do not understand them. They just need to be used right. And that's my point. Not seeing an issue doesn't make it disappear. Seeing something as wrong won't make it right. You have to look at the big picture. See recordings of gameplay by all sorts of people, not just 'high tier' people. Listen to feedback from many people, and try the things yourself. Not just the profession, but all other professions in all sorts of specs. Once you have enough information, it just comes to you right away. In both large and small scale fights involving mesmers, unless there's a heavy spam of unblockable wards like Static Field, mesmers can dish out way more of their skills wihout being disrupted by anything, from well timed interrupt attempts to stray spammed skills. And they may not notice it in the heat of battle, but it's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > > > > Nothing will ever change that. > > > > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > > > > > > > I don't think you have actually played mirage then. Most ambush skills have a longer casting time than the mirage cloak so nearly if not all ambush skills are interruptable towards the end of their cast. Of course we're assuming you're a human that's playing with perhaps a 60-100 ping and average reaction speeds of 150-250ms meaning you generally activate an ambush 0.2s into the mirage cloak or even 0.3s in. > > > > > > The end of the cast is not the problem, it's the start. Mirages can cover too many of their activation starts. > > > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > > > > Nothing will ever change that. > > > > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > > > > > > > Its funny you mention "that much time of uninterruptability". If a mirage set themselves up with as much endurance regen/vigor and evades and went into a fight with it...you would be surprised how easy the fight would be. They would literally blow everything they can to achieve such. Its also not as much (time wise) "uninterruptability" as you think. No mirage would run max "uninterruptability" as its not a viable PvP or WvW build. > > > > > > > > As for your previous comment on some skills not meant to be used while evading...unless you are an ANet dev, you actually cannot truthfully claim that. Maybe they had plans at some point that a class like mirage would break that barrier. > > > > > > > > If you are going to continue to argue, please stop sounding like a broken record with the while "skills while evading" approach (esp where you started there, then evolved to "only some skills should be used while dodging". We're all up for constructive debates. > > > > > > There's no need to be an anet dev. Because it's in the design. A skill not meant to be used while evading will have an activation or channeling time, often an aftercast time too. Trying to evade while it's being activated or channeled will interrupt it. The 3 Daredevil dodge replacer traits will respect that, but Mirage's won't. That has to change to how it should have been from the start. Using a core weapon or utility skill with an activation time during a mirage evade should queue the skill to be activated when the dodge ends, not use it right away while evading. That's all. > > > > > > If I sound like a broken record is because there's nothing else to the issue. People either say there's no issue, or act as if they thought they have seen the issues, but those having issues against mirage show with what the explain that their activation while evading is the issue. It's not their access to conditions, it's not their weapon or utility skills, it's not their traits, it's not some combination with stats or upgrades. > > > It's that they can cover too many of their activations to avoid getting them disabled with effects like stuns or blind way more often than anyone else. > > > > > > They can use too many skills while evading. Denying it more times or repeating it more times won't change how that is. But if people keep denying it, we'll just have to keep repeating it until people stop sweating bullets looking to the sides with shifty eyes trying to find some sort of excuse and scapegoat, and reality finally sinks in. > > > > > > There's nothing "OP" about mirage. Their evade just allows them to do something no one should be able to do. That has to be fixed. Once that's fixed, balance can resume as usual. > > > > > > Then we can focus on reworking stealth across the board. But first things first. > > > > Thats the thing, there isnt an issue. This is working as intended as well as part of the concept of a Mirage. It was created to be able to do this. You post in a Mesmer forum hoping that the majority would be on your side. This would actually be better in the WvW and/or PvP forums where you may get a bunch of people to agree with you. Its like going to Quebec (Canada) and saying Poutine sucks, or going to Boston and saying the red socks suck. > > > > Fact of the matter is that this is how the devs wanted Mirage to act. I personally think barrier is OP, however I understand the concept and accept it and moved on. > > > > Why haven't you? > > I haven't because I can't. I see what I see. I see that the sky looks blue. And I know why it looks blue. And if someone comes and tells me it's actually pink with green polka dots that will make me raise an eyebrown and wonder why they think that way, not make me change my mind. > > For example, you yourself admit that you think barrier is OP. But it isn't. Barrier itself isn't a problem. Any problems involving barrier always happen because of how it's used it isn't being fully used the way it should. > It's actually a mechanic I had suggested for ages and that GW2 direly needed since forever, but it's still incomplete. It's missing variables it should have. All barriers have a fixed 5s duration, and a fixed 50% max HP cap. Those values should be able to vary between skills. Some should not be able to give more than 10% max hp , some should be able to give longer barriers or even permanent ones that stay until depleted (obviosuly a barrier that would last indefinitely would have a very small cap). > Look at scourges. they can spam barrier way too much, while keeping too much of their other powers, their full power needs to be partially moved to traits, and split between their 3 Grandmaster traits, so a scourge that focuses on Barrier can't also fully focus on conversion spam or condition spam. This applies to all professions. Nobody should be able too many things too well at the same time. > And other professions haven't received as much of it as they should. Barrier has been added too sparingly. Barrier should not just be an addition. It should have been replacing some heals, turning a permanent heal into a partial temporary barrier. And it should have been available more often as a cover to pre-emtively 'heal' before receiving a burst of damage. > The addition of barrier to Scrapper was a ray of hope, though. It has been done mostly right. I would add some barrier to Med Kit blaster when traited with Health Insurance while using it on allies that are at full health, tho. > And let's not forget the game has been getting too spikey and bursty lately. Replacing heals with barrier is something that needs to happen along an overall reduction of fast damage bursts. Rather than having people quickly and easily recovering to full heal with healing effects, resetting fights too often, part of that would change to barriers that go away, bringing back much needed attrition combat and tiring the enemy. > But OP? Nope. Not at all. Removing barrier would be as much of a mistake as removing stealth, evades or downed states just because some people do not understand them. > They just need to be used right. > > And that's my point. Not seeing an issue doesn't make it disappear. Seeing something as wrong won't make it right. You have to look at the big picture. See recordings of gameplay by all sorts of people, not just 'high tier' people. Listen to feedback from many people, and try the things yourself. Not just the profession, but all other professions in all sorts of specs. > > Once you have enough information, it just comes to you right away. In both large and small scale fights involving mesmers, unless there's a heavy spam of unblockable wards like Static Field, mesmers can dish out way more of their skills wihout being disrupted by anything, from well timed interrupt attempts to stray spammed skills. And they may not notice it in the heat of battle, but it's happening. Not seeing an issue could also mean there really isn't one in reality. Could mean the concept is lost on some (and they are genuinely looking for reasoning to understand) or could mean some people are just salty and/or looking for a reason to complain for other personal reasons. Who knows. What I do know however is this causing an impasse, leading to the point of agreeing to disagree in this case as its clear our minds will not be swayed. I say good luck good sir and/or maam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. > > > Nothing will ever change that. > > > Dancing around the subject won't change that. > > > > I don't think you have actually played mirage then. Most ambush skills have a longer casting time than the mirage cloak so nearly if not all ambush skills are interruptable towards the end of their cast. Of course we're assuming you're a human that's playing with perhaps a 60-100 ping and average reaction speeds of 150-250ms meaning you generally activate an ambush 0.2s into the mirage cloak or even 0.3s in. > > The end of the cast is not the problem, it's the start. Mirages can cover too many of their activation starts. > Start, end it doesn't matter, you interrupt a skill and it doesn't happen. Remember you're complaint is "That doesn't change the fact that no profession should have that much time of uniterruptiability. " and ambush skills you can interrupt the end. Likewise there's a lot of utilities that have 1s or more cast (excluding instants because uninterruptable) and there's a lot of skills that are 1/2s-3/4s cast times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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