Fixing Stealth

[Arcaedus.7290]

I would also like to vote B, but while this would be a deserved nerf to thieves, it would be a harmful nerfs to mesmers. C is my main answer though and I've posted this idea before:

 

Let only the final charge of Shadow Meld remove revealed. The count recharge could be reduced to 40 seconds and the icd of the skill could be reduced to 0.25 to 0.5s so that a thief could quickly blow both charges if they suddenly needed to remove revealed.

 

Alternatively: Remove the charges on Shadow Meld, and just make it a regular skill with a cooldown. The cooldown would have to be lower (maybe 25 seconds) to compensate for not having two charges, but would otherwise do everything that it currently does.

 

The first suggestion might involve considerable rework to the skill and not be possible without making it work like a mantra, but imo SM is too powerful as is, but removing its ability to remove revealed altogether would be a heavy nerf to DE since they rely on stealth so much. This is why I suggested the alternative as well.

 

 

[Jski.6180]

Stealth should not have sustain attached to it. So no clears or heals passively when your in stealth but you can still use skills that heal you and clear condis when in stealth. Other then that it should let you hit hard coming out of stealth for all classes more for thf then others.

[SoV.5139]

A bit of A and C is needed.

 

Everyone voting E is deadeye enjoying their lack of consequences for openly attacking but failing to kill.

[TheBravery.9615]

This poll wasn't very well thought out I admit, but feel free to discuss ideas.

 

If A were to be implemented I would imagine some sort of trade off to be fair. E.g. increased stealth duration. Would be interesting if it even granted permanent stealth if the player does not move..

 

> @"Luindu.2418" said:

> B + new boon called "vision" that works like [Nuhoch Stealth Detection](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nuhoch_Stealth_Detection "Nuhoch Stealth Detection")

 

This is also a good idea.

[kash.9213]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> I would like to see them make stealth permanent, but than once you engage in combat, you can not restealth till out of combat. For deadeye, the elite could allow a single get out of combat stealth. You still get the ability to 1-shot from stealth, and with thieves mobility, could likely still run away to reset fights. But, it would avoid all the things currently broken about stealth, not to mention the culling the server adds (or regional lag).

 

What would you replace Shadow arts with?

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I think everyone is really, really overthinking this.

 

When I first started the game with my Mesmer, many moons ago (when I put the dinos directly in my gas tank), I thought that the way I saw me in Stealth was the same way everyone saw me, for the longest time. It was only when I first tried WvW/PvP did I realize it was different.

 

Why don't we just have stealth look like that to everyone^1, and break targeting?

 

No massive new mechanics, no need for new art and icons, easily used at range to avoid detection in WvW/PvP and still usable close up if you're smart on positioning/timing. Back to being something done to sneak around enemy lines and mitigate being attacked some, but not so stupidly overpowered that every Mesmer and Thief that **DOESN'T** take it _is literally crippling their potential._ With the targeting break you could not be pew pewed at range, but would still have to be careful of melee cleave and AoE, and the attacker could try to keep on you.

 

We could even test it as a weekend event in WvW first.

 

1: AI enemies could work like it does now and you be non-existent to them so no impact on PvE or soloing camps but not making other player's unreasonably angry.

[Kolache.3964]

I can't imagine how many people have been driven away by stealth in this game since release. It's a frustrating mechanic and it should have been reworked a long time ago.

[Baldrick.8967]

I'm not a fan of stealth as there is literally no downside to it- even if revealed you can pop back in to it, it doesn't slow you down, you can target whilst in stealth (and target will stay on the target way beyond 1500 range which can't be removed...) and you can escape way out of range whilst in stealth if you don't manage to down the player first time, come back and respam your macro whilst their defences are on cooldown.

 

Not to mention crazy damage figures from certain skills which have little to no cooldown - who wouldn't like a skill that has 0.5 second cast , no cooldown and hits for 14-19k on a heavy armored toon?

 

Whole damage/stealth/boon system needs reworked but it's not going to happen, so we either play despite it or don't.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Baldrick.8967" said:

 

>

> Whole damage/stealth/boon system needs reworked but it's not going to happen, so we either play despite it or don't.

>

 

Agreed. There are simply too many boons and condis that are in essence the same thing with a different name.

 

Too many stats too. We could do with a revamp to like 4 simple stats (Attack, Defense, Health, Effects).

 

[geist.4126]

You don't need to dumb down the game more. Sorry, this isn't a fortnite or LoL style game but an mmorpg. If you are overwhelmed by stats, boons and builds, pick another game. Don't force simplicity on everyone.

What GW2 needs is a back to release where most of the talents weren't passives but active skills you had to choose wisely before you press a button. That's why reveal remove is such a bad idea. It dumbs down the gameplay. Like auto-invul from engi (example) does or some warrior traits.

I miss the option to play a hard to kill and tanky class which was possible with most profession. I had to choose between being tanky and doing slow damage without burst or being bursty as hell but have a high risk of getting killed. Today the only really tanky options coming from talents, not gear (exceptions to the rule).

 

[BlueMelody.6398]

Stealth as currently implemented is a troll tool. It allows an essentially zero-risk/high-reward gameplay, which makes it broken. Stealthing to a 1-shot of the victim is basically 100% about the skill of the stealther and 0% about the skill of the victim, who has no practical way to detect the stealther until he is down and therefore no reasonable counterplay (other than running perma-aegis, which is certainly not possible for most builds).

 

Change it completely to a camouflage-style mechanic, where you are invisible at long range, camouflaged but with tells at midrange, and visible at short range. Don't lose target when equipping stealth, either. That would introduce some risk into the mode and make it actually competitive.

 

Right now a thief can essentially run right through a zerg and never be detected (hell, even a MI zerg can do that to another zerg). That is *ridiculous* both from a logical and a gameplay standpoint.

 

 

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Stealth as currently implemented is a troll tool. It allows an essentially zero-risk/high-reward gameplay, which makes it broken. Stealthing to a 1-shot of the victim is basically 100% about the skill of the stealther and 0% about the skill of the victim, who has no practical way to detect the stealther until he is down and therefore no reasonable counterplay (other than running perma-aegis, which is certainly not possible for most builds).

>

> Change it completely to a camouflage-style mechanic, where you are invisible at long range, camouflaged but with tells at midrange, and visible at short range. Don't lose target when equipping stealth, either. That would introduce some risk into the mode and make it actually competitive.

>

> Right now a thief can essentially run right through a zerg and never be detected (hell, even a MI zerg can do that to another zerg). That is *ridiculous* both from a logical and a gameplay standpoint.

>

>

 

Jesus holy fuck what are these threads and these complaints.Thats the WHOLE point of a Stealth class,that you wont be detected by that zerg.A thing that has been possible since 2012,perm stealthing is also possible without DE.You should be lucky that you people wern't here when ghost thief was a thing cus you all would be crying your nuts out of your eye sockets.

 

 

"Dont lose the target when he stealths,That would introduce some risk to the mode and make it competitive" LMAO.

 

 

Do you even play thief ? Have you ever played thief ? Please go play thief.

[BlueMelody.6398]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Stealth as currently implemented is a troll tool. It allows an essentially zero-risk/high-reward gameplay, which makes it broken. Stealthing to a 1-shot of the victim is basically 100% about the skill of the stealther and 0% about the skill of the victim, who has no practical way to detect the stealther until he is down and therefore no reasonable counterplay (other than running perma-aegis, which is certainly not possible for most builds).

> >

> > Change it completely to a camouflage-style mechanic, where you are invisible at long range, camouflaged but with tells at midrange, and visible at short range. Don't lose target when equipping stealth, either. That would introduce some risk into the mode and make it actually competitive.

> >

> > Right now a thief can essentially run right through a zerg and never be detected (hell, even a MI zerg can do that to another zerg). That is *ridiculous* both from a logical and a gameplay standpoint.

> >

> >

>

> Jesus holy kitten what are these threads and these complaints.Thats the WHOLE point of a Stealth class,that you wont be detected by that zerg.

 

That the WHOLE POINT of something is to render logic and realism completely meaningless only underscores my point.

 

>A thing that has been possible since 2012,perm stealthing is also possible without DE.

 

The fact that something has been broken since inception doesn't make it any less broken.

 

> Do you even play thief ? Have you ever played thief ? Please go play thief.

 

Thief is easy mode. 5 hours of practice on a couple of simple combinations and I took out a platinum-level player coming out of spawn, at no risk to myself. Yep, broken.

 

I'm done with this thread. Stealth has been broken since the beginning, I've made my points in multiple threads, Anet isn't going to do anything about it. Done talking about it here.

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Thief is easy mode. 5 hours of practice on a couple of simple combinations and I took out a platinum-level player coming out of spawn, at no risk to myself. Yep, broken.

 

Incorrect. Although DE perma-stealth may be low-risk, everything else on Thief takes practice and mechanical skill to perform and is generally the highest risk in terms of in-combat gameplay. This is how I know you haven't played thief. Even if you did and managed to kill someone, their WvW rank means *nothing* in relation to their skill - another reason why your opinion is of little importance.

[geist.4126]

Thief players are exactly the kind of people who defended rogue in wow back in vanilla. Or as a famous German player once said "Rogues aren't strong. They are just good when I with my unlimited skill and godlike abilites play them" - that was sarcasm btw.

 

I played two hours on a de yesterday. Died three times, killed around 25 solo roamers and two commanders out of a zerg. My thief experience is "played 100 hours as pistol/dagger at start"

 

Thief is so hard, l2p everyone.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > Stealth as currently implemented is a troll tool. It allows an essentially zero-risk/high-reward gameplay, which makes it broken. Stealthing to a 1-shot of the victim is basically 100% about the skill of the stealther and 0% about the skill of the victim, who has no practical way to detect the stealther until he is down and therefore no reasonable counterplay (other than running perma-aegis, which is certainly not possible for most builds).

> > >

> > > Change it completely to a camouflage-style mechanic, where you are invisible at long range, camouflaged but with tells at midrange, and visible at short range. Don't lose target when equipping stealth, either. That would introduce some risk into the mode and make it actually competitive.

> > >

> > > Right now a thief can essentially run right through a zerg and never be detected (hell, even a MI zerg can do that to another zerg). That is *ridiculous* both from a logical and a gameplay standpoint.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Jesus holy kitten what are these threads and these complaints.Thats the WHOLE point of a Stealth class,that you wont be detected by that zerg.

>

> That the WHOLE POINT of something is to render logic and realism completely meaningless only underscores my point.

>

> >A thing that has been possible since 2012,perm stealthing is also possible without DE.

>

> The fact that something has been broken since inception doesn't make it any less broken.

>

> > Do you even play thief ? Have you ever played thief ? Please go play thief.

>

> Thief is easy mode. 5 hours of practice on a couple of simple combinations and I took out a platinum-level player coming out of spawn, at no risk to myself. Yep, broken.

>

> I'm done with this thread. Stealth has been broken since the beginning, I've made my points in multiple threads, Anet isn't going to do anything about it. Done talking about it here.

>

>

 

Logic and realism hasnt been part of gw2 since the start,if you want logic and realism in a game you shouldnt be playing gw where magic is the rule of skills.You keep saying stealth is broken without able to understand the fact that stealth is thief's only defensive mechanism besides dodging.A thief without either 2 is a wet noodle to everything and everyone.Wow you killed One guy on your thief coming out of spawn,seems you know it all,lmao.

 

Ive been playing mostly warr as main where thief is my second pick,and without a doubt thief takes So much more skill to be played Properly than my warri with it;s ep/counter/blocks. and invuln for days if you rotate well.Thief needs skill to be played well,youre delusional if you think otherwise.

[Turk.5460]

> @"geist.4126" said:

> Thief players are exactly the kind of people who defended rogue in wow back in vanilla. Or as a famous German player once said "Rogues aren't strong. They are just good when I with my unlimited skill and godlike abilites play them" - that was sarcasm btw.

>

> I played two hours on a de yesterday. Died three times, killed around 25 solo roamers and two commanders out of a zerg

 

Sure ya did, buddy. And I bet you were an uplevel and in blue gear as well, and all those players you killed were top-tier famous roamers! It's amazing how you got those commanders out of the Zerg, was it with Death's Judgement - the *single target non-piercing attack*?

L

O

L

[geist.4126]

Hey, you started that shit the hyperbolism with "it breaks my class" and "nerf into oblivion", "unplayable" and "we get nerfed all the time".

And sorry, but I'm legendary on my charr thief.

[Turk.5460]

> @"geist.4126" said:

> Hey, you started that kitten the hyperbolism with "it breaks my class" and "nerf into oblivion", "unplayable" and "we get nerfed all the time".

> And sorry, but I'm legendary on my charr thief.

 

Can you can point out where I wrote *any* of those things? I'll save you the trouble - No, you can't. You can try to argue I mentioned nerfs, but the irony would be that you arguing such would be the very definition of the hyperbole you wrongly claim to see. Considering I merely pointed to how Thieves have been nerfed more in the past than they have been buffed, I don't see any mention of frequency of nerfs. And finally, this was in a completely different thread so...please try to stay on topic. :3

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Stealth is broken and everybody knows it. The people that defend it only do so because that is what they play and they enjoy getting their easy kills. It needs to be fixed, I don't care who you are or what you say, it NEEDS to be fixed. Plain and simple. It's stupid.

[joneirikb.7506]

Like option A, think that might be a decent hot-fix.

 

But personally I'd much rather see the entire stealth mechanism changed into something else. Nothing about the stealth being broken, it's just not any fun to play against, and I generally don't have much fun playing with it either. The game is still too dependent upon tab targeting to handle that stealth de-targets, stacking stealth just extends this problem where it would have been somewhat more interesting if stealth had a max duration or just didn't stack. Reveal is generally not available on enough classes/options etc.

 

In short, I see enemy stealth, I walk away, because it's boring.

 

---

 

What I'd like to see, especially for thief, is to replace stealth with a way to activate sneak attacks and play to more active defenses. Get rid of stealth entirely, change to a playstyle where you rather focus on applying debuffs (primarly blind), and attacking a blinded (or other debuffs) player/target enables sneak attack (with a cooldown).

[binidj.5734]

Option Z: Cannot stealth while in combat.

[derd.6413]

given the options you've provided it's best to keep stealth in it's current flawed state.

[kash.9213]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Stealth is broken and everybody knows it. The people that defend it only do so because that is what they play and they enjoy getting their easy kills. It needs to be fixed, I don't care who you are or what you say, it NEEDS to be fixed. Plain and simple. It's stupid.

 

I don't see many posts defending broken stealth. I do see people giving a reality check to those people who make ill informed broad claims about entire classes with bad information or flat out lies. All thieves can one shot with perma stealth and endless evades and mobility and should have all aspects of their class nerfed is the kind of lazy bitter claim that keeps getting posted here, of course people will call you out on that kind of nonsense.

[Kayowin.9217]

Option A should be two different options.

 

A.1 - No more stealth stacking (highest timed stealth option in play determines maximum duration so in theory, everything would be under 4 seconds except SR, which is technically pulse stealth stacking as well and would need to be changed) This would make long duration stealth heavily resource intensive.

 

A.2 - Must exit stealth to re-enter stealth. (Which is kind of what Rifle DE does now when you think about it. Malicious Backstab is a different story)