[Down State] Handicapping the game in favor of the serg that has more numbers is a bad design game.

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> Skill groups...

 

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> the focus and skill might make it seem like they are all one shot builds, but they are not.

 

"One shot build" is hyperbolic anyways. They're usually more like "one wombo combo get a downed" type builds or "3+ players bursting on one target at the same time" type comps but "one shot build" is easier to say and has a nice ring to it.

 

>But hey, if those cheesy burst builds work at taking out a zerg, why don't you give it a try and report back.

 

They mostly just take out the fat kids or people consistently out in africa in my experience.

 

 

[Hitman.5829]

Reading the comments, I realize that many of you have no idea what *handicapping" a game means. Handicapping a game is the act of making a game less cumbersome and easier and enjoyable to play. For example: if you die, the game gives you another chance to continue the game play by introducing down states, extra lives, health regeneration while out of combat, etc.... so that you can continue enjoying the game.

 

Guild wars 2 is such a game; the problem with GW2 is that developers decided to include Down State handicapping in WvW and PvP **without restriction or moderation** so that groups with more numbers not only have the advantage in numbers but also the advantage in Down State handicapping.

 

I hope that you now understand what handicapping a game means and how PvE handicapping affects WvW.

If you still don't get it, remember this:

* Down State Handicapping is a gift from the developers to make your life easier, so that you can enjoy playing the game even after you are "dead."

 

WvW should not have this "gift" from the developers; only PvE should have Down State Handicapping.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > > Fascinating. Reduce healing rate or buff poison (-50% revive rate or whatever) so the counter to the easy tactic is even more effective.

> > But... thats exactly what what poison does today, it makes it take 50% longer to heal :/

>

> 33%

No, that would be the healing reduction. If you heal at 66% the normal rate, it takes 50% longer time to heal 100%.

 

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> Guild wars 2 is such a game; the problem with GW2 is that developers decided to include Down State handicapping in WvW and PvP **without restriction or moderation** so that groups with more numbers not only have the advantage in numbers but also the advantage in Down State handicapping.

Oh well then it's not a problem is it? They added restrictions because you can only rally 1:1 now and it's with moderation because players bring poison fields, focused AoE damage and the capability to stomp which brainless NPCs dont have.

 

Your argument is moot. If that is handicapping, then zergs are already handicapped because they bring meta firebrands, meta scourges, meta revenants and meta spellbreakers. GW2 developers keep on giving its "gifts", I agree delete everything. Only vanilla rangers should be allowed in WvW.

[Hitman.5829]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > > > Fascinating. Reduce healing rate or buff poison (-50% revive rate or whatever) so the counter to the easy tactic is even more effective.

> > > But... thats exactly what what poison does today, it makes it take 50% longer to heal :/

> >

> > 33%

> No, that would be the healing reduction. If you heal at 66% the normal rate, it takes 50% longer time to heal 100%.

>

> > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > Guild wars 2 is such a game; the problem with GW2 is that developers decided to include Down State handicapping in WvW and PvP **without restriction or moderation** so that groups with more numbers not only have the advantage in numbers but also the advantage in Down State handicapping.

> Oh well then it's not a problem is it? They added restrictions because you can only rally 1:1 now and it's with moderation because players bring poison fields, focused AoE damage and the capability to stomp which brainless NPCs dont have.

>

> Your argument is moot. If that is handicapping, then zergs are already handicapped because they bring meta firebrands, meta scourges, meta revenants and meta spellbreakers. GW2 developers keep on giving its "gifts", I agree delete everything. Only vanilla rangers should be allowed in WvW.

 

You sir have no idea of what I just wrote. Congratulations for making yourself look like a fool.

 

[whoknocks.4935]

I would keep downed state only in PvE and PvP, why PvP? Because it still has somehow an use.

 

A downed body on a cap can still cap or prevent the cap of it, and guys don't forget that downed state is overused by pro player to delay the respawning time if the downed is off point (bleeding tactic). It is not only a bonus for who has a rallybot in the team.

 

I would instead completely get rid of downed state in WvW, since it's a war map, if you die, no chances to get back into the fight, you should get sent to spawn and walk again.

 

Too many bad players are carried by downed state because of rallybots, so you don't care about playing safe or position yourself well, especially squishy classes, because if you get downed 90% of the times you get revived immediately when instead you deserved to be killed.

 

We all seen during no downstate week, a smaller but better and skilled organised group of people was able to kill a much bigger group because of skill and better plays. And should be always like that.

[Sylosi.6503]

Downstate was added because firstly you do not have healers in this game and the game was not supposed to be Counterstrike. (especially given applying damage in this game is so very easy in comparison).

 

Secondly because it raised the skill cap in PvP, which is what the combat/classes in this game were built around. It added another layer of depth, teamwork and decision making to what is actually a relatively shallow game (WvW especially).

 

Hence it actually rewards better players, which is why the good PvP teams (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) generally handled it better than the not so good teams, let alone WvW players.

 

If you have problems with downstate then that is a problem with your build, your comp, your teamwork and your decision making. Beyond that claiming some mechanic favours greater numbers is an asinine argument as virtually every mechanic in the game does.

[Baldrick.8967]

Whilst there is stealth and skills that hit for 50-75% of a players total health in one instant hit then down state needs to exist. Otherwise the non-zerg part of wvw could rapidly become stealth heaven (it's already pretty bad with parties of two thiefs, mesmer and a necro 'roaming'). You'll have even more cheese builds following your 'guild raid' and picking off people whilst you can do nothing about it as they will blink/teleport/leap away and disappear after each spike.

 

I'd be in favour of removing downstate if they reworked the entire game and mechanics so that instantly downed wasn't a thing but that would involve a complete rework of boons, condis, etc. so it's not going to happen.

[Balthazzarr.1349]

Come on folks. Downstate gives us the opportunity to SPIKE! That’s why we have zillions of finishers. Kill downstate and watch people scream about no use for finishers and the extra bonus you get for using it successfully in a battle.

 

Fair or not that would be the first thing you see here if downstate was removed.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> Come on folks. Downstate gives us the opportunity to SPIKE! That’s why we have zillions of finishers. Kill downstate and watch people scream about no use for finishers and the extra bonus you get for using it successfully in a battle.

>

> Fair or not that would be the first thing you see here if downstate was removed.

 

I have bought every single finisher there is, and I would gladly give them all up for no DS. Second, as I said before, with no DS, the finisher can be cast instantly as the person dies, so the finishers actually get even more use and you still remove DS, and anet can keep selling them.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > Come on folks. Downstate gives us the opportunity to SPIKE! That’s why we have zillions of finishers. Kill downstate and watch people scream about no use for finishers and the extra bonus you get for using it successfully in a battle.

> >

> > Fair or not that would be the first thing you see here if downstate was removed.

>

> I have bought every single finisher there is, and I would gladly give them all up for no DS. Second, as I said before, with no DS, the finisher can be cast instantly as the person dies, so the finishers actually get even more use and you still remove DS, and anet can keep selling them.

 

But whose finisher triggers in Zergs? Or small groups?

 

Can you imagine the video clutter of a Zerg clashing and 30 finishers going Off within 10 seconds?

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> Downstate was added because firstly you do not have healers in this game and the game was not supposed to be Counterstrike. (especially given applying damage in this game is so very easy in comparison).

>

> Secondly because it raised the skill cap in PvP, which is what the combat/classes in this game were built around. It added another layer of depth, teamwork and decision making to what is actually a relatively shallow game (WvW especially).

>

> Hence it actually rewards better players, which is why the good PvP teams (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) generally handled it better than the not so good teams, let alone WvW players.

>

> If you have problems with downstate then that is a problem with your build, your comp, your teamwork and your decision making. Beyond that claiming some mechanic favours greater numbers is an asinine argument as virtually every mechanic in the game does.

 

It's only an issue for roamers and I'm pretty darn certain 98% of the threads that pop up on this subject are from said players. Unfortunately, winning outnumbered fights is extremely difficult largely thanks to downed state. But, WvW isn't balanced around small scale/solo play so, the argument is moot no matter how many times people want to bring it up.

 

Fact of the matter is if you're going to roam, you have to be prepared for those situations. If you can't stomp with other players whacking on you, you need to be more creative or play more carefully. You can't avoid every outnumbered fight but if you know your build or your skill can't handle it, you can at least avoid the ones you have a choice to engage in.

[Israel.7056]

Roamers want downed state gone for the same reason someone like me wants it gone: I played no downed state week and the game was faster paced way more tense and brutal and it just felt so much better after all these years of playing with downed state. It made me want to log in and play more than I usually do.

 

If you didn't play no downed state week or you did but you didn't have fun with it what rational reason can anyone give you to change your mind about It?

 

It's like trying to convince someone who hates mayonnaise that it's actually really good if they just eat it with every meal.

[subversiontwo.7501]

I get where people is comming from with these threads and remarks. Downstate is certainly affecting the balance of differently sized groups and it is doing more so than people lead on to believe. It is not just a problem at smaller scale but even at larger scale there is quite the issue with a smaller group playing well against a larger group but being wittled down as they can't get to hostile downed players because they get flooded with numbers.

 

However, people who makes these threads and remarks also do not see or undervalue the positives downstate brings to the game and why it is a core mechanic. It does allow Anet to balance the classes more offensively, giving leeway to what would otherwise quickly errupt into class balance discussions and game mode discussions as players are downed instantly without control over their own characters and quickly find the mode pointless to play. There are also alot of fun stuff designed around downstate both offensively and defensively such as creating cleave-piles for more kills, taking offensive risks to overpower hostile groups who try to save their players and all the classes, builds or roles who specialize in helping or saving friends (such as how downstate kept builds like Chrono, Scrapper and Druid relevant in guild-level play for a good while). Taking away downstate thus leads to alot of both offensive-defensive class rebalance as well as mechanical class rebalance that may end up both less diverse and harder to maintain from a balance standpoint.

 

There are much better ways to curb numerical superiority balance-wise.

[Israel.7056]

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> However, people who makes these threads and remarks also do not see or undervalue the positives downstate brings to the game and why it is a core mechanic. It does allow Anet to balance the classes more offensively, giving leeway to what would otherwise quickly errupt into class balance discussions and game mode discussions as players are downed instantly without control over their own characters and quickly find the mode pointless to play.

 

This really is the crux of the disagreement in my estimation. Putting aside all the "good for the game" talk I think a lot of people are just worried about getting 100-0 more often and not being able to get a res like they usually do. It's a valid concern. Some people either play with very high ping or their reaction times are not very good due to age or how their brains work or their keybinds are not well optimized and so speeding the game up and reducing the margin for error in combat makes it very difficult for them to compete effectively. Truth be told I had a few days of No Downed State week where I had a lot of trouble adjusting because I'm used to using downed state to win a lot of fights and I played the week on EU servers where my ping is not very good compared to what I usually get on NA servers but I've always had pretty fast reaction times and my keybinds are very carefully optimized so speeding the game up, reducing the margin for error in combat was eventually a lot of fun for someone like me. It made the game harder in many ways but it also made the gameplay feel much better overall. It was in fact the best the game has ever felt for me and I was very sad to see the event end. But on the other end I can imagine someone with higher ping having a nightmare of a week, dying constantly without feeling like they had adequate time to react and just rage quitting until the week was over. What argument can be made to someone like that?

 

[Naix.8156]

I believe the original intent of the downstate mechanic was to create moments of tension in the minute-to-minute gameplay primarily. In my opinion, I'd agrue that it was generally successful at achieving the desired affect. However, as the game has evolved it really seems like the downstate mechanic has found itself being wack-a-mole'd between ridiculous or near meaningless as collateral damage from general power creep.

 

As far as completely removing it from pvp gamemodes, I really don'e believe that's realistic. Anet sold finishers for stomping and there are several skills and traits based on downstate (res'ing in particular) that wouldn't have an opportunity to see use if downstate was removed from competitive game modes. The most extreme example here would be that the scrapper's entire function gyro mechanic wouldn't be usable.

 

Whether or not it makes sense or there's a solid justification to remove the downstate entirely from competitive game modes there's just too big of a barrier with reworking existing mechanics to believe Anet would even remotely entertain this change.

[Hitman.5829]

> @"Naix.8156" said:

> I believe the original intent of the downstate mechanic was to create moments of tension in the minute-to-minute gameplay primarily. In my opinion, I'd agrue that it was generally successful at achieving the desired affect. However, as the game has evolved it really seems like the downstate mechanic has found itself being wack-a-mole'd between ridiculous or near meaningless as collateral damage from general power creep.

>

> As far as completely removing it from pvp gamemodes, I really don'e believe that's realistic. Anet sold finishers for stomping and there are several skills and traits based on downstate (res'ing in particular) that wouldn't have an opportunity to see use if downstate was removed from competitive game modes. The most extreme example here would be that the scrapper's entire function gyro mechanic wouldn't be usable.

>

> Whether or not it makes sense or there's a solid justification to remove the downstate entirely from competitive game modes there's just too big of a barrier with reworking existing mechanics to believe Anet would even remotely entertain this change.

 

Yeah, Anet made a huge mistake by introducing Down State handicapping in WvW without restriction or moderation.

If Anet had done their homework, they would have known that Down State in WvW is a very bad game design.

They do deserve credit for PvE Down State, it is a very useful handicapping and makes the game play smooth, but in WvW it just does not make any sense.

After reading some comments, I have changed my mind about removing PvP down state because like many people have pointed out, PvP is an even match.

However, WvW is a different beast.

[joneirikb.7506]

One point to make, even if they did remove "downed-state", players could still be hard-rezzed, if the bigger zerg wins, they can still pick up all of their players once they're out of combat. This removes a good bit of the "sting" from losing down-state.

 

I can't see any way for ANet to completely remove Downed-State, it is too integrated into the game, and it would honestly separate the modes in GW2 too much for their liking. I think a compromise would be the more likely way to go.

 

Downed-State rewards higher numbers (most frequently, but not always), as does a lot of other things in the game. The most glaringly obvious question becomes "does it really matter?" I mean, does ANet care about balance in WvW ? Do we ? Everyone is going to say yes, but the question remains, if they perfectly balanced the entire game, I'm betting large chunks of the players would get tired of it and move on. You'd actually lose something that a lot of players enjoy: Finding new strong builds after a balance change, tweaking and turning builds, keep engaged with adapting to new builds and adapting their own, enjoy the latest op build they found on meta battle and assembled to rotation stomp other noobs to feel good, and virtually ever player that enjoys power progression of some sort.

 

 

[Knighthonor.4061]

Downed state is was the argument for why the game shouldn't have dedicated healers, but now you want to remove down state.... Can't have it both ways...

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> If Anet had done their homework, they would have known that Down State in WvW is a very bad game design.

Yes, the fact that WvW became one of the most popular RvR modes in the genre and attracted both big and small hardcore raiding guilds is a clear indication of very bad game design. Imagine how good Red Guard could have been with no downed state instead of presumably loosing fights and ragequitting every time an enemy got ressed.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Gw2 is a pve game with experimental designs such as multi guilds, shared pve environments, no defined role classes, etc.

The supposed downstate too is a experimental design over the traditional mmorpg revive spell.

It never has competitiveness as priority, it is never a pvp mmorpg, it is a experimental game designed for pve as focus.

 

Edit: Also, people nowdays still not informed that WvW was anet's answer to open world pvp, not because they wanted it to be RvR but because they know people want open world pvp but they just couldn't have it in this pve setting so they made WvW. There is a actual black & white interview about it.

[xihorus.2804]

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> Down state is handicapping for those who already have the advantage in numbers. It needs to be removed from WvW and PvP.

> I have never played a game in which handicapping played a major advantage for those who ALREADY have the advantage. Thus, giving them MORE advantage!

>

> handicapping games is fantastic in PvE so you can enjoy the game; and to some extent it should also be used in competitive matches to level the playing field, but NEVER should handicapping be used in favor of those who already have the advantage.

>

I get what you are saying here, but I don't think the problem is with the down state as much as it is the rally on enemy death that creates the snowballing effect.

 

In PvE, the mechanic is great and allows for some fun clutch victory moments. In WvW, it allows for the side with an advantage in numbers to rely on rally mechanics to just push through the smaller group without consequence. Why bother to stop and rez allies when it is easier to keep pushing the smaller group and rally teammates from the deaths of your enemies?

 

I think it would be nice to keep the down state in WvW, but make it so that a player cannot rally off of another player or NPC.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> Edit: Also, people nowdays still not informed that WvW was anet's answer to open world pvp, not because they wanted it to be RvR but because they know people want open world pvp but they just couldn't have it in this pve setting so they made WvW. There is a actual black & white interview about it.

Uh no.

 

GW2 devs responsible for WvW also worked with Dark Age Of Camelot and thats pretty much why its there. Why do you think we have three sides red, green and blue... its quite literally Anets version of DAoC RvR, not any "answer to open world PvP".

[Israel.7056]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > If Anet had done their homework, they would have known that Down State in WvW is a very bad game design.

> Yes, the fact that WvW became one of the most popular RvR modes in the genre and attracted both big and small hardcore raiding guilds is a clear indication of very bad game design. Imagine how good Red Guard could have been with no downed state instead of presumably loosing fights and ragequitting every time an enemy got ressed.

 

Not really much in the way of competition and obviously there are some really good design choices that make combat really satisfying downed state or no. But just because red guard suffered through downed state doesn't mean we have to suffer it forever.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Just as I feared. There might be too much confirmation bias with the OP as hinted at in another thread ([New Warrior WvW Roaming Video](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58146/new-warrior-wvw-roaming-video#latest "New Warrior WvW Roaming Video")) where he claims:

 

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> The guys chasing you for 5 minutes is the reason why "down state" needs to be removed from the game.

> Down state is a handicap that benefits the bad players and blobs.

> Down state should only be allowed in PvE.

 

Now the video itself is 14 minutes long, and I didn't see anywhere people were "chasing [him/her] for 5 minutes" but maybe 3 minutes at best, like around Hills when some others tried to save a scourge or two. Even still the other 2/3 - 3/4s of the video show the spell breaker winning 1v2s 1v1s 1v3s **WITH** the current implementation of downstate. While I hate anecdotal evidence for or against a downstate change, _the point is he/she made no comment on the other large portion of the video._ There will probably be no convincing the OP otherwise at this point in time. **What is actually concerning is the OPs lack of acknowledging all parts of the game mode itself in the pursuit of No-downstate.** Again, my bias is "No-Rally" is far superior than "No-Downstate." No-Rally will affect pin snipe less than No-Downstate. The game needs more pins no matter if you roam or zerg.

 

> @"Hitman.5829" said: His Handicap Definition

>! > Reading the comments, I realize that many of you have no idea what *handicapping" a game means. Handicapping a game is the act of making a game less cumbersome and easier and enjoyable to play. For example: if you die, the game gives you another chance to continue the game play by introducing down states, extra lives, health regeneration while out of combat, etc.... so that you can continue enjoying the game.

>! >

>! > Guild wars 2 is such a game; the problem with GW2 is that developers decided to include Down State handicapping in WvW and PvP **without restriction or moderation** so that groups with more numbers not only have the advantage in numbers but also the advantage in Down State handicapping.

>! >

>! > I hope that you now understand what handicapping a game means and how PvE handicapping affects WvW.

>! > If you still don't get it, remember this:

>! > * Down State Handicapping is a gift from the developers to make your life easier, so that you can enjoy playing the game even after you are "dead."

>! >

>! > WvW should not have this "gift" from the developers; only PvE should have Down State Handicapping.

>!

 

Furthermore, the OP feels his new definition of handicap somehow supports his efforts. If we are going to be consistent I will be using the [Marriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/handicap "Marriam-Webster") definition of handicap: _a race or contest in which an artificial advantage is given or disadvantage imposed on a contestant to equalize chances of winning_. **Current implementation of down state is not a handicap because ALL sides have downstate.** It would be a handicap with this common definition if only _ONE_ side had it.

 

If we go with OP's definition of handicap (in which he lists health-reset as one), then let's remove health-reset so roamers have to actually spec into healing power to recover health. This also includes the need for dedicated healing in zergs. By establishing Downstate as a handicap that sets the _precedent_ for health-reset being included (and is included in the new OP edit). How will that go? Will we need to add more auto-proc defenses like endure pain to compensate? Don't we have to resolve the numerous downstate related skills and items?

 

Lastly, and the most important point. **People with numbers advantage have their advantage because of NUMBERS.** Not downstate. Not a skill. Not a class. Because of their bodies alone they will (and should) have an advantage to the lesser number in general. Now, _obviously if they are not built right, then that contributes to success or failure_ (consider the video of scourges trying to wander around...and die). The reality is, it is bad game design to try and balance a population issue (imbalance in players) with a game mechanics change (downstate). This is unless the game was originally designed with an imbalance in mind (like some 1v3 Mario Party mini-games). WvW was not made for XvX+Y's or any other combination that isn't XvX (assuming you understand X and Y represent potential integers). And of course, the hope was Red vs. Blue vs. Green would compensate for number issues. I digress! /doneWithThisThread

 

`TLDR: Attempting to balance population with game mechanics is actual bad game design.`