Roamers skill level

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > That SAME firebrand running harrier celestial if switch to valkyrie-marauder and dodge autos (the more high risk version) would have zero chances to survive a fight, taht's why that particular build using harrier celestial stats is able to carry him to the win even tho is not that great player.

> > This was my point, I hope you understood what I mean, if not nevermind I don't know what else to say.

> Thats not an argument you can make when roaming. Saying "if he had brought a kitten build I would have won easily!" have no bearing on anything. That's just wishful thinking for someone that lost the fight.

>

> And that's why **your** build matters, yes. You build it to fight whatever comes your way *as best you can* but there will always be those built to counter you. If those episodes happen "very often"... maybe you should make a better build that can handle these particular enemies?

>

> Maybe, *just maybe* that firebrand thought... "hm I'm meeting alot of these cheap thieves being carried by their builds so I'll run this setup to fight them better."

 

True, but a build who let you commit endless mistakes during a fight is just a carrying build, wvw is amazing for build diversity and theory crafting, but this has nothing to do with being a good player simply because you run a build that makes you win fights you shouldn't have.

 

Everytime I play dagger spellbreaker with double passives, double endure pain and win plenty of 1vs2 to be honest I don't see myself as a good player, but as a carried player by build and not by skill.

 

This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

 

You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

>

> You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

[apharma.3741]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...

> If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.

> Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.

> Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

 

They left because the balance for a long time was entirely split between WvW and PvP. Recently they've rolled out PvP nerfs to WvW and kept them some what in line (thank God) but we still have abnormalities like druid. Due to this there's a lot of cheese builds which can be nigh unkillable without running something equally cheesy, leading to less effort needed and losing skill. A good example is PvP where a lot of the people in ranks 1-50 at the moment would have been 180-250 in season 5-6 and I remember seeing them down there.

 

There's some people running more "fair" builds without or with as few passives as possible and things that aren't insanely overpowered or power creeped but these are not very rewarding for the effort you have to put in to make them work.

 

The slow pace of balance doesn't help either.

[dagger dave.5201]

Why I don't roam anymore.

 

Solo- chasing deadeyes and mirages around a map is boring and frustrating.

 

Group- all guild members quit roaming as every guild group you fight is gonna have 2+ minstrel guards/trailblazer scourges and whatever other cheese combinations...

 

Basically all the skill and fun of roaming has gone and I haven't played in about 5months

[Arlette.9684]

> @"dagger dave.5201" said:

> Why I don't roam anymore.

>

> Solo- chasing deadeyes and mirages around a map is boring and frustrating.

>

> Group- all guild members quit roaming as every guild group you fight is gonna have 2+ minstrel guards/trailblazer scourges and whatever other cheese combinations...

>

> Basically all the skill and fun of roaming has gone and I haven't played in about 5months

 

So sorry if mean Deadeyes and Mirages touched you inappropriately. :cry:

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"dagger dave.5201" said:

> Solo- chasing deadeyes and mirages around a map is boring and frustrating.

Well no one in their right mind solo chase thieves and mesmers that doesnt want to fight. I dont even chase them on my own mirage. Or any other class for that matter. If they run they lost before they even began.

 

Well unless I am in a 5-10 man squad I'm leading. Then we chase down everything. No witnesses.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> if you with your build can kill 90% of your opponents, yet there are builds that you simply cant kill because your damage is so low and your sustain aswell..that is more telling about how weak your build is. why dont you play a build that can compete? i know , i know the ever same excuse of cheese bla bla. but if you kill people while you run a weak build doesnt that just mean that they are terribly bad ? not much to brag about a victory with a weak build, congrats you killed a noob. if you instead use all your knowlegde about the game and use the build that you yourself can get the very best results, then you wont have the issue you described above and you wont waste too much time fighting noobs that are 'carried', while you still get a fight from other people actually using their skill and knowledge of the game also in their build design.

 

So we all should play thief and mesmer because these are the only classes that can control 100% of the fight? Everyone elso has a risk to be hardcountered. And yes there are builds out there that hardcounter more stuff than other builds or that have a 100% chance of getting away after a bunch of misplays and these builds are called cheese builds.

 

Following your logic the game is perfectly balanced currently as we all just need to play stuff that can compete. If it was that simple, why does ANet still balance the game? To please whiners who don't find competing builds? Or is it maybe because self-regarding people like you who are playing overpowered stuff are ruining the fun of others?

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> >

> > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

 

Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

 

And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

 

So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

 

And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

 

This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...

> If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.

> Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.

> Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

 

There are actually quite a few. But the problem is, most of them hide inside those 10-15man "roaming" groups.

 

People don't understand what roaming is nowadays: 1-5people, not more

[bigo.9037]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> > >

> > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

>

> Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

> With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

>

> And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

>

> So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

>

> And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

>

> This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

> But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

 

sooo you're talking about stat building. get yourself a little bit of sustain then you will never lose to those builds.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > if you with your build can kill 90% of your opponents, yet there are builds that you simply cant kill because your damage is so low and your sustain aswell..that is more telling about how weak your build is. why dont you play a build that can compete? i know , i know the ever same excuse of cheese bla bla. but if you kill people while you run a weak build doesnt that just mean that they are terribly bad ? not much to brag about a victory with a weak build, congrats you killed a noob. if you instead use all your knowlegde about the game and use the build that you yourself can get the very best results, then you wont have the issue you described above and you wont waste too much time fighting noobs that are 'carried', while you still get a fight from other people actually using their skill and knowledge of the game also in their build design.

>

> So we all should play thief and mesmer because these are the only classes that can control 100% of the fight? Everyone elso has a risk to be hardcountered. And yes there are builds out there that hardcounter more stuff than other builds or that have a 100% chance of getting away after a bunch of misplays and these builds are called cheese builds.

>

> Following your logic the game is perfectly balanced currently as we all just need to play stuff that can compete. If it was that simple, why does ANet still balance the game? To please whiners who don't find competing builds? Or is it maybe because self-regarding people like you who are playing overpowered stuff are ruining the fun of others?

 

no you dont have to play thief and mesmer.

you may play whatever you want, whats the most fun to you. but if the only thing you want is to compete in a 1 vs 1 fight, why would you choose a build that cant? i understand that there are mechanics in the game some people do not want to use because for what ever reason they deem them cheap, cheesy whatever. for some it is stealth, for others its condition damage , high mobility, range damage , too much 'facetank sustain' , passives, boonspamm, corruptions, heals, blocks, invulns, evades etc. the problem is the game can not balance to every different view of what is 'OK' unless the game gets very much simplified combat like giving every one a stick with 2 singletarget skills: 1. 200 range 3 damge, 2. 300 range 1 damage. no movement skills, no dodging, no nothing and 30 hp. there you go fun combat without cheese and i am sure people would complain about the ones that only use skill 2.

the game is rather balanced in my view yes. but not in a 1 vs 1 way. the game tries to offer different playstyles and so each build can within both team pvp modes spvp and WvW take a role or a bit of several roles. each build has strengths in certain situations and weaknesses in others. so obviously for solo roaming in WvW, there wont be many builds doing it well as it doesnt affect the mode much. if you want 100% control for that, meaning you want to play it efficient then you need to play a build that can pick its fights and several mesmer/thief builds are rather decent at that. the moment you increase the number of people you walk with tho, escaping is no longer the most important thing. obviously you may still keep solo roaming on your reaper and your doing a good job at that, as long as you have fun doing it all fine. but yet your here saying that you do not have much fun because of some thieves/mesmers you realize that your build is not the best for that job. if thats really what you need to have fun - go play them. i mean mesmer and especially thief allways have been among the best solo roamers in WvW because of their core design having good escape options, if you havent figured that after 6 years: wow. and it will allways be like that unless they change those professions into something completly different. and escaping will also allways be the very most important thing for efficient solo roaming as long as numbers matter as much in a fight.

now if many people think for whatever they do in the mode the best is to pick mesmer/thief and actually play those professions/builds, then ANet will see it and they will put them more into a defined role.

most of the QQ in this WvW forum allways comes from WvW roaming. because in that, people over 6 years demanded every build to be equally viable no matter how stupid your stat or trait choice. in PvE there is defined meta or only specific builds for specific roles - if i join a group and say: hey i am a heal thief i provide perma regen, ill get kicked right away. in spvp you also wont see the necro roaming the map alone. but in WvW you will, because we learned over the years that there are so many noobs that you can actually win a majority of your fights with whatever build you want that makes halfway sense. but you shouldnt forget the strengths and the weaknesses of your build and try to get into situations where your build shines and not where it is countered.

when i sometimes run with a zerg on my deadeye because i think they might get me into somewhere or its not much going on and we then face another zerg, i also feel highly inefficient and feel my fun ruined by all the reflects and AoEs all over the place, there a warrior jumps out of his zerg finally a target for me - nope some 200 iQ necro triggered his Last Stand and with the conditions right into auto endure pain, now hes dead and i didnt see any number on him - so much fun. in such a situation i just wish i was on my ele. yet then when i am on my ele in a zerg i see some roamer behind killing the slow, i can try to scare them with some AoE it might work but they keep comming back, then i wish i was back on my deadeye to deal with it.

 

anyway thats a long wall of text to tell you that you may play what you want but you should mind your strengths and weaknesses. winning is not the most important thing for fun. but if you feel your fun affected by your winrate, you should do something about it.

 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> > >

> > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

>

> just to down me and drop sieges on me.

 

If they feel the toxic d-baggary need to drop siege, you already won. Means that Mentally you rekt them, and that lasts longer than anything. :)

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...

> > If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.

> > Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.

> > Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

>

> There are actually quite a few. But the problem is, most of them hide inside those 10-15man "roaming" groups.

>

> People don't understand what roaming is nowadays: 1-5people, not more

 

 

 

This exactly.The only 1 - 2 roam groups i see are thieves/mesmer combo.Other than that people tend to "roam" with 10+.Even playing the ball up style if they have to fight 2 people and can rely on downed state cus they usually have 2 - 3 fb's aswell.But they mostly run off or insta die when they meet something their own size.

 

Most roamers who alway ran with 1 - 3 are now relying mostly on stealth specs because of this and certain blobs feeling the need to chase 2 or 3 guys for 10 minutes around the map so they have an easier way to disengage from that.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

>

> This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

> But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

you may get your firebrand with such a build ready, i mean your obviously better than that dude and next time i run into you, you switch to it and show me - id really like to see that. i know alot about the game but with the constant changes i can not know every possible synergy for every build out there..

or we meet earlier in EoTM.

 

 

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> If they feel the toxic d-baggary need to drop siege, you already won. Means that Mentally you rekt them, and that lasts longer than anything. :)

 

I still have no idea what's the point of that whole dropping siege on enemy bodies...

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > If they feel the toxic d-baggary need to drop siege, you already won. Means that Mentally you rekt them, and that lasts longer than anything. :)

>

> I still have no idea what's the point of that whole dropping siege on enemy bodies...

 

It's a sign of respect!

 

At least a that's how I take it.

 

Laughing is that they enjoyed the encounter.

 

Jumping means they are celebrating that you put up a good fight.

 

Seriously though, the less people get concerned (and I am not saying you, just people in general) about perceived BM activities, understand it means nothing if you don't ***perceive*** it as a problem.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...

> > > If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.

> > > Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.

> > > Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

> >

> > There are actually quite a few. But the problem is, most of them hide inside those 10-15man "roaming" groups.

> >

> > People don't understand what roaming is nowadays: 1-5people, not more

>

>

>

> This exactly.The only 1 - 2 roam groups i see are thieves/mesmer combo.Other than that people tend to "roam" with 10+.Even playing the ball up style if they have to fight 2 people and can rely on downed state cus they usually have 2 - 3 fb's aswell.But they mostly run off or insta die when they meet something their own size.

>

> Most roamers who alway ran with 1 - 3 are now relying mostly on stealth specs because of this and certain blobs feeling the need to chase 2 or 3 guys for 10 minutes around the map so they have an easier way to disengage from that.

>

Is that NA? Because its not really what I see in the EU. Soulbeasts, spellbreakers, holos hell even solo scourges are common. Mesmers and thieves are probably like 20% of encounters.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > if you with your build can kill 90% of your opponents, yet there are builds that you simply cant kill because your damage is so low and your sustain aswell..that is more telling about how weak your build is. why dont you play a build that can compete? i know , i know the ever same excuse of cheese bla bla. but if you kill people while you run a weak build doesnt that just mean that they are terribly bad ? not much to brag about a victory with a weak build, congrats you killed a noob. if you instead use all your knowlegde about the game and use the build that you yourself can get the very best results, then you wont have the issue you described above and you wont waste too much time fighting noobs that are 'carried', while you still get a fight from other people actually using their skill and knowledge of the game also in their build design.

> >

> > So we all should play thief and mesmer because these are the only classes that can control 100% of the fight? Everyone elso has a risk to be hardcountered. And yes there are builds out there that hardcounter more stuff than other builds or that have a 100% chance of getting away after a bunch of misplays and these builds are called cheese builds.

> >

> > Following your logic the game is perfectly balanced currently as we all just need to play stuff that can compete. If it was that simple, why does ANet still balance the game? To please whiners who don't find competing builds? Or is it maybe because self-regarding people like you who are playing overpowered stuff are ruining the fun of others?

>

> no you dont have to play thief and mesmer.

> you may play whatever you want, whats the most fun to you. but if the only thing you want is to compete in a 1 vs 1 fight, why would you choose a build that cant? i understand that there are mechanics in the game some people do not want to use because for what ever reason they deem them cheap, cheesy whatever. for some it is stealth, for others its condition damage , high mobility, range damage , too much 'facetank sustain' , passives, boonspamm, corruptions, heals, blocks, invulns, evades etc. the problem is the game can not balance to every different view of what is 'OK' unless the game gets very much simplified combat like giving every one a stick with 2 singletarget skills: 1. 200 range 3 damge, 2. 300 range 1 damage. no movement skills, no dodging, no nothing and 30 hp. there you go fun combat without cheese and i am sure people would complain about the ones that only use skill 2.

> the game is rather balanced in my view yes. but not in a 1 vs 1 way. the game tries to offer different playstyles and so each build can within both team pvp modes spvp and WvW take a role or a bit of several roles. each build has strengths in certain situations and weaknesses in others. so obviously for solo roaming in WvW, there wont be many builds doing it well as it doesnt affect the mode much. if you want 100% control for that, meaning you want to play it efficient then you need to play a build that can pick its fights and several mesmer/thief builds are rather decent at that. the moment you increase the number of people you walk with tho, escaping is no longer the most important thing. obviously you may still keep solo roaming on your reaper and your doing a good job at that, as long as you have fun doing it all fine. but yet your here saying that you do not have much fun because of some thieves/mesmers you realize that your build is not the best for that job. if thats really what you need to have fun - go play them. i mean mesmer and especially thief allways have been among the best solo roamers in WvW because of their core design having good escape options, if you havent figured that after 6 years: wow. and it will allways be like that unless they change those professions into something completly different. and escaping will also allways be the very most important thing for efficient solo roaming as long as numbers matter as much in a fight.

> now if many people think for whatever they do in the mode the best is to pick mesmer/thief and actually play those professions/builds, then ANet will see it and they will put them more into a defined role.

> most of the QQ in this WvW forum allways comes from WvW roaming. because in that, people over 6 years demanded every build to be equally viable no matter how stupid your stat or trait choice. in PvE there is defined meta or only specific builds for specific roles - if i join a group and say: hey i am a heal thief i provide perma regen, ill get kicked right away. in spvp you also wont see the necro roaming the map alone. but in WvW you will, because we learned over the years that there are so many noobs that you can actually win a majority of your fights with whatever build you want that makes halfway sense. but you shouldnt forget the strengths and the weaknesses of your build and try to get into situations where your build shines and not where it is countered.

> when i sometimes run with a zerg on my deadeye because i think they might get me into somewhere or its not much going on and we then face another zerg, i also feel highly inefficient and feel my fun ruined by all the reflects and AoEs all over the place, there a warrior jumps out of his zerg finally a target for me - nope some 200 iQ necro triggered his Last Stand and with the conditions right into auto endure pain, now hes dead and i didnt see any number on him - so much fun. in such a situation i just wish i was on my ele. yet then when i am on my ele in a zerg i see some roamer behind killing the slow, i can try to scare them with some AoE it might work but they keep comming back, then i wish i was back on my deadeye to deal with it.

>

> anyway thats a long wall of text to tell you that you may play what you want but you should mind your strengths and weaknesses. winning is not the most important thing for fun. but if you feel your fun affected by your winrate, you should do something about it.

>

 

If I could expand upon this;

 

You do not succeed by deeming your losses a matter of your opponents fault.

 

Which means you're not going to win or learn anything if every time you lose you blame it on the situation. Be it your opponents build, how many friends they had, how often they were running away, etc. It's up to _you_ to see a fight through to it's desirable end. If that means kiting in to other players, abusing terrain, or what ever other method is necessary, then so be it. I know that a lot of people frown upon "doing what ever it takes to win", but it's the smartest way to play. If you don't enjoy playing that way, you need to make sure to remember who's at fault when you lose. You can't blame others for the limitations you place upon yourself. A perfect example is that I prefer not to run from 1v1's. There are rare exceptions, but typically I will see every 1v1 through to the death regardless of what I could do to escape if I were losing. If _they_ run, I don't think "wow, they gave up! I won", I think, "I shouldn't have let them escape."

 

As for builds, it is so far beyond me how anyone could roam with a bad or sub-optimal build and blame others for playing good ones. My personal favorite build to play is a Rocket Boots + Blast Gyro Tools Scrapper. It's designed to pick at the tails of zergs or to troll gankers. I can and often do win 1v1's but it is an extremely crappy build for that. Despite this, I don't get upset when I'm losing to someone who's using a better build than me. It's my choice to play what I'm playing and it's often my choice to engage the fight as well.

I _always_ think about the weaknesses of my builds when I design them and I always give some test runs so I can adjust them. If I'm determined to use a sub-optimal build, then I take that in to consideration when I roam, typically by making greater use of the terrain.

 

Ultimately, roaming isn't about who's the best, but about who's the most self aware.

[LaGranse.8652]

>! > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

>! > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

>! > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

>! > > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

>! > > >

>! > > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

>! > > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

>! >

>! > Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

>! > With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

>! >

>! > And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

>! >

>! > So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

>! >

>! > And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

>! >

>! > This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

>! > But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

 

I would have to ask, how in the world do you get spawncamped by one person while roaming? If there is one person standing outside one of the exits from spawn that you cannot beat or run from then use another exit. Running into them and dying 20 times is not how you roam.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"bigo.9037" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> > > >

> > > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> > > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

> >

> > Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

> > With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

> >

> > And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

> >

> > So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

> >

> > And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

> >

> > This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

> > But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

>

> sooo you're talking about stat building. get yourself a little bit of sustain then you will never lose to those builds.

 

Getting little bit of sustain or quite a bit of sustain will end up in a stalemate in which nobody is able to kill each other, and to be honest I don't find it fun.

 

I will never lose, but I will never win either.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"bigo.9037" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> > > > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

> > >

> > > Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

> > > With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

> > >

> > > And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

> > >

> > > So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

> > >

> > > And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

> > >

> > > This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

> > > But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

> >

> > sooo you're talking about stat building. get yourself a little bit of sustain then you will never lose to those builds.

>

> Getting little bit of sustain or quite a bit of sustain will end up in a stalemate in which nobody is able to kill each other, and to be honest I don't find it fun.

>

> I will never lose, but I will never win either.

 

See you're still trying to defend your current status quo, even after someone told you what you need to do to win/draw. How does that help you?

[Arekai.5698]

Since HoT, builds are more important than skill.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > @"bigo.9037" said:

> > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> > > > > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

> > > >

> > > > Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

> > > > With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

> > > >

> > > > And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

> > > >

> > > > So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

> > > >

> > > > And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

> > > >

> > > > This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

> > > > But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

> > >

> > > sooo you're talking about stat building. get yourself a little bit of sustain then you will never lose to those builds.

> >

> > Getting little bit of sustain or quite a bit of sustain will end up in a stalemate in which nobody is able to kill each other, and to be honest I don't find it fun.

> >

> > I will never lose, but I will never win either.

>

> See you're still trying to defend your current status quo, even after someone told you what you need to do to win/draw. How does that help you?

 

Who is damn saying of winning, drawing or losing geez.

 

I just answered the OP question about the skill level of roamers.

 

And I said: more and more you play wvw you will notice how in 80% of the cases is not the skill of the player who wins, but the build who carry the wins, a worse player than you can still kill you thanks to the build and not thanks to personal ability and skill.

 

One main example is condi mirage, easy to use, braindead and spammy as hell, and gives lot of troubles even to experienced players, so a bad player can get great results with it.

 

That's all, I NEVER asked advices: "please help me defeat this build or that build I need help :("

 

So please don't go offtopic random.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > @"bigo.9037" said:

> > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> > > > > > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

> > > > >

> > > > > Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

> > > > > With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

> > > > >

> > > > > So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

> > > > >

> > > > > And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

> > > > >

> > > > > This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

> > > > > But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

> > > >

> > > > sooo you're talking about stat building. get yourself a little bit of sustain then you will never lose to those builds.

> > >

> > > Getting little bit of sustain or quite a bit of sustain will end up in a stalemate in which nobody is able to kill each other, and to be honest I don't find it fun.

> > >

> > > I will never lose, but I will never win either.

> >

> > See you're still trying to defend your current status quo, even after someone told you what you need to do to win/draw. How does that help you?

>

> Who is kitten saying of winning, drawing or losing geez.

>

> I just answered the OP question about the skill level of roamers.

>

> And I said: more and more you play wvw you will notice how in 80% of the cases is not the skill of the player who wins, but the build who carry the wins, a worse player than you can still kill you thanks to the build and not thanks to personal ability and skill.

>

> One main example is condi mirage, easy to use, braindead and spammy as hell, and gives lot of troubles even to experienced players, so a bad player can get great results with it.

>

> That's all, I NEVER asked advices: "please help me defeat this build or that build I need help :("

>

> So please don't go offtopic random.

 

My apologies, I must've misunderstood your point. Condi Mirage in the current Meta is NON-EXISTENT. Now if you're talking about Hybrid, that's a different story. It's very far from braindead at high level plays and you having a gripe with it, makes me think you have a problem retargetting properly and generally paying attention to what's going on, on your screen.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"bigo.9037" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > This is my whole point. Some builds carry average players to godmode level.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can face a player and he destroys you, and you think: OMG he must be a god pvp expert player with many years experience, and instead 80% is build 20% is skill, but he wins even if you play perfectly.

> > > > If you play your build perfectly but bring a build that cannot beat a build helmed by an average player, the fact that you played it perfectly is beside the point. You keep putting too much faith into your own build while talking down every other.

> > >

> > > Too much faith... you really don't wanna understand.

> > > With my build I face any roaming profession, meta holosmiths, meta spellbreakers, power or condi/hybrid mirages, soulbeasts, thieves etc etc.

> > >

> > > And I never have problems dealing with them, I lose a lot of times I win a lot of times, but sometimes you encounter those players with theorycrafted builds, such has harrier celestial firebrand, or even crusader, celestial druids or mirages and no matter how you play perfectly and see them making double the mistakes you do, they win because the build carry them, absorb crazy amount of damage, super high regen sustain, and on top of that, good damage to kill you.

> > >

> > > So eventually even knowing perfectly your opponent class and dodging all the things you need to dodge, you will end up remaining out of fuel and lose that fight. And he could be 100% a worse player than you and he didn't deserve to win that, but because of the build he won anyway.

> > >

> > > And mudse said every enemy who can kill him, he can kill back, trust me not against such builds.

> > >

> > > This one guy harrier celestial fb literally spawn camped me 20 times, because I killed him in a different profession, he got salty, switched to firebrand and farmed me all the 20 times I couldn't drop him under 50% health not even once no matter how good I was playing. And no, his profession wasn't even a counter of mine.

> > > But when we had the mirror match he lost every single one, that's why he got salty and trash talked in whispers to me and switched profession just to down me and drop sieges on me.

> >

> > sooo you're talking about stat building. get yourself a little bit of sustain then you will never lose to those builds.

>

> Getting little bit of sustain or quite a bit of sustain will end up in a stalemate in which nobody is able to kill each other, and to be honest I don't find it fun.

>

> I will never lose, but I will never win either.

What's fun isnt always optimal in fighting particular builds, I'm afraid.