Why isn't Zerg-Busting a thing?

[Supreme.7352]

WvW is a really boring gamemode for the most part. It's either just ganking someone under-prepared team/solo or running around in a zerg and capturing points. In all the years I have played the game, the best I have seen from a guild are roaming vs roaming. No mid-sized group taking on a zerg and stopping them. No small group picking off players in a zerg and fleeing. Nothing interesting or dynamic when it comes to stopping a zerg except with another zerg.

 

Why isn't actually interrupting zergs a thing in this game? How can we make it a thing? Is it even a thing people want? Does it exist and I am on the wrong servers?

[Caliburn.1845]

Zerg-busting traditionally is what is done by gvg/fight guilds who are you guessed it, generally another zerg. Zerg surfing is I think what you're talking about, and it does happen here and there. The problem is that decent zergs and commanders will take care of his tail, res his slow people, and smash little groups picking people off.

[Supreme.7352]

Could anything be done to promote more of a active playstyle then? It seems that most WvW is passive with defense of a fort being the only times that a zerg will be fighting other players.

[DeceiverX.8361]

ANet made boons too overpowered, CC and boon denial too prominent, stability too ineffective unless it's being spammed, and zero-investment damage and durability too common thanks to powercreep (hello permanent unremovable vigor on food, the literal tripling of skill damage coefficients from core game, cooldowns reduced on utility skills by like 50% from release, etc.), cluttered the game/skills/skins with too many visual effects to actually see anything, added a ton of abilities with no animations or counterplay, and professions into what amounts to basically more complicated rock-paper scissors.

 

In literally every patch since mid-2015 the value of skilled play has been reduced. WvW is strictly a numbers game now and pretty much has been since. It always was, but the idea of winning with substantially fewer people is out the window. People have also learned what's good and figured the game out. And as such, people copy it.

The professions are poorly-designed/implemented for PvP environments now, especially small-scale. Most of what amounts to out-playing the opponent is gone and there's not enough competitive build identity to really counter a given meta. Some things are OP; the rest pale in comparison. Nothing you do will put up a fight and since expansion powercreep, everything runs around basically spamming invulnerability effects until someone runs out and then they get one-shotted/killed instantly.

 

With all that damage and all the AoE coverage and AoE denial and so on, focusing people and coordinating doesn't matter because it's unnecessary. Everyone's a burst-damaging, CC-locking, damage-immune tankbuster today, so there's objectively nothing a skillgroup can do better than a blob. And so many professions like Spellbraker/Scourge literally just prevent the game from being played as it is, since boon dependency is just too significant since with capped boons it's the same as running around with two sets of armor and more.

 

At that point you might as well just gank and outnumber as the skill just doesn't matter. Counting seconds while you punish cooldowns and slow animations, limited CC availability where you need to plan ahead for both your own skills and the enemy's to dodge or punish, needing to trade health or take hits and calculating which ones to take and negate... it's all out the window.

 

Guild buffs, banners, map gimmicks like on DBL, and other such bonuses also caused most of the small-scale skillgroups to quit the game immediately since just being capable of being a competitive guild requires a few thousand gold investment.

 

Unless ANet reworks every profession in the game from the ground up and redesigns most of the elite specs, makes huge alterations to PvE, changes their stance on raids and balancing, and generally just does everything differently as far as the way they've treated professions and power creep over the past three-four years, nothing will allow for zergbusting and the rise of skillgroups. It's a done deal.

 

In all seriousness, if you want to talk about skilled play and profession mastery (as in being good) rewarding people - take it from the former pro players - this isn't the game to be in. There's a strict optimum way of PvP'ing most of the time and it's painfully obvious once you're seasoned in class dynamics. Follow it and play what's OP or suck because there are no counters.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

all it takes is some player incentive. if u wanna see some zerg busting then get some players together and do it. all the tools are there

[rng.1024]

> @"Supreme.7352" said:

> Could anything be done to promote more of a active playstyle then? It seems that most WvW is passive with defense of a fort being the only times that a zerg will be fighting other players.

 

It used to be a thing before HoT, but with the 4 stat armors, concentration and e-spec powercreep it's now near impossible to pull off.

 

The only way to bring it back at this point, is to skip downstate if you're killed by someone with the outnumbered effect (visible on their bar). This would allow smaller coordinated guilds to even the numbers when on a map with several opposing zergs. Would also encourage fighting guilds to bandwagon to lower tiers for better outnumbered uptime.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

>In all the years I have played the game, the best I have seen from a guild are roaming vs roaming. No mid-sized group taking on a zerg and stopping them.

 

I'd say then you haven't seen much.

 

(who else remember that glorious two months when target cap was not a thing, everyone was scrub and group of 4 eles with proper chokepoint where capable of wiping full squads?)

 

as for mid-sized groups taking on a zerg and stopping them - does 20 people for you is "mid-sized" or zerg already?

because thats the size I recall for zerg busters to be - when they were a thing (and they were specialised in wrecking 50+groups that were less organised by mix of decent bomb and incredible sustain - for that time at least)

 

as for smaller groups picking on zergs bite by bite - these don't happen often because as it is now it can only reliably work against pugmander squads (with no voice comms), against anything organised with commander having half a brain it'd be suicide (unless of course you have small group skimming on edges of ZvZ engagement, then you may be lucky on exploiting overal chaos and pick few kills for yourself and get away with it maaaaybe)

 

as for what currently is interrupting hostile zergs - mostly allied zergs, or need to go back from wherever said hostile zerg is to defend highly upgraded objective from reset.....

but that would depend on how you define zerg again

[Blocki.4931]

The answer is: Target limits.

 

Smaller scale fights are usually the most fun. Any nuance of skill is lost in large blobs, it's just a numbers game.

[Shroud.2307]

Once upon a time servers had a more defined personality. Since the announcement of alliances, a lot of servers have begun to form their own in preparation for the changes. This has caused a lot of servers to lose their identity (whether temporarily or permanently, I cannot say) and has caused both better balance by spreading out guilds, and making every match feel the same.

 

Although some servers still retain their stereotypes, such as Yak's Bend being the PPT-centric server, many have become so watered down that they feel the same as any other. To someone who isn't involved in the community however, it has probably always felt this way.

 

Back when servers had more identity, there were places you could go to find the kind of activity you speak of. Maguuma for example was a known "cloud" server often having closed squads instead of commanders and a massive number of roamers that were near fearless when in packs. "Clouds" are groups of players that operate by themselves but accumulate in the same area when a large scale fight occurs. They encircle organized zergs making it impossible for the offending team to focus their damage and causing them to constantly lose players who are getting left behind or out of position. This often results in the organized zerg either fully retreating or eventually being worn down which is basically the messy cousin of "zerg busting."

 

I understand that clouding isn't the same as zerg busting, but it does still happen. Unfortunately, at least since I've left Maguuma, I've seen a lot less of it. Many people are too afraid to engage larger groups and if there's no commander, people prefer to avoid fights entirely or to stick very close to objectives.

 

Also, zerg busting in an organized group with the objective of combating larger groups is nearly impossible at this point. Clouding is more effective for the reasons I've listed above where as zerg busting groups just flat out do not have the power to overcome greater numbers in most cases. It isn't impossible, it's just uncommon due to the ease of death balls being able to absorb everything that comes their way.

 

I think due to the way the game has evolved, a zerg busting group would work best if they were spread out and acting more like a cloud co-ordinating their targets and regrouping to recover. But again, due to the ease of death balling (meaning giant map Q sized zergs), I don't think most people care to bother putting in such a degree of effort.

 

Final note:

If you enjoy that style of combat I suggest paying close attention to the way servers you fight behave. If you find that they are often capable of picking apart your zerg and have a large number of roamers, it may be a server you want to move to. Or, you can just start squad inviting players that aren't afraid to float around the fringe of enemy zergs and see what kind of friends you can make.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> ANet made boons too overpowered, CC and boon denial too prominent, stability too ineffective unless it's being spammed, and zero-investment damage and durability too common thanks to powercreep (hello permanent unremovable vigor on food, the literal tripling of skill damage coefficients from core game, cooldowns reduced on utility skills by like 50% from release, etc.), cluttered the game/skills/skins with too many visual effects to actually see anything, added a ton of abilities with no animations or counterplay, and professions into what amounts to basically more complicated rock-paper scissors.

>

> In literally every patch since mid-2015 the value of skilled play has been reduced. WvW is strictly a numbers game now and pretty much has been since. It always was, but the idea of winning with substantially fewer people is out the window. People have also learned what's good and figured the game out. And as such, people copy it.

> The professions are poorly-designed/implemented for PvP environments now, especially small-scale. Most of what amounts to out-playing the opponent is gone and there's not enough competitive build identity to really counter a given meta. Some things are OP; the rest pale in comparison. Nothing you do will put up a fight and since expansion powercreep, everything runs around basically spamming invulnerability effects until someone runs out and then they get one-shotted/killed instantly.

>

> With all that damage and all the AoE coverage and AoE denial and so on, focusing people and coordinating doesn't matter because it's unnecessary. Everyone's a burst-damaging, CC-locking, damage-immune tankbuster today, so there's objectively nothing a skillgroup can do better than a blob. And so many professions like Spellbraker/Scourge literally just prevent the game from being played as it is, since boon dependency is just too significant since with capped boons it's the same as running around with two sets of armor and more.

>

> At that point you might as well just gank and outnumber as the skill just doesn't matter. Counting seconds while you punish cooldowns and slow animations, limited CC availability where you need to plan ahead for both your own skills and the enemy's to dodge or punish, needing to trade health or take hits and calculating which ones to take and negate... it's all out the window.

>

> Guild buffs, banners, map gimmicks like on DBL, and other such bonuses also caused most of the small-scale skillgroups to quit the game immediately since just being capable of being a competitive guild requires a few thousand gold investment.

>

> Unless ANet reworks every profession in the game from the ground up and redesigns most of the elite specs, makes huge alterations to PvE, changes their stance on raids and balancing, and generally just does everything differently as far as the way they've treated professions and power creep over the past three-four years, nothing will allow for zergbusting and the rise of skillgroups. It's a done deal.

>

> In all seriousness, if you want to talk about skilled play and profession mastery (as in being good) rewarding people - take it from the former pro players - this isn't the game to be in. There's a strict optimum way of PvP'ing most of the time and it's painfully obvious once you're seasoned in class dynamics. Follow it and play what's OP or suck because there are no counters.

 

I think this pretty well covers it. I was just giving a more optimistic answer since I do occasionally still see smaller groups overcoming larger ones. That said, the larger group is rarely, if ever, a competent one. It's just a PPT guild or a bad commander with crappy pugs making too many mistakes to be carried by their numbers.

[Supreme.7352]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> > @"Supreme.7352" said:

> > Could anything be done to promote more of a active playstyle then? It seems that most WvW is passive with defense of a fort being the only times that a zerg will be fighting other players.

> The only way to bring it back at this point, is to skip downstate if you're killed by someone with the outnumbered effect (visible on their bar). This would allow smaller coordinated guilds to even the numbers when on a map with several opposing zergs. Would also encourage fighting guilds to bandwagon to lower tiers for better outnumbered uptime.

 

That would be an interesting idea. If you're outnumbered you get the advantage. Although maybe skipping the downstate alltogether might be a bit much, but what about just halving or even reducing the HP of the downed state to a 1/4?

 

 

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> Words

 

That's a very interesting read. Any way a player could know what the personality of the servers would be? Could ANet incorporate a way to personify servers?

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Supreme.7352" said:

 

> That's a very interesting read. Any way a player could know what the personality of the servers would be? Could ANet incorporate a way to personify servers?

 

Facing them is really the only way. I've been on many, many servers and I can tell you from experience that the one you're on might not be anything like how it appears on the other end. It's always good to pay attention to the behavior and time zones of your enemies to determine their personalities. For example, Sanctum Of Rall has become an _extremely_ NA heavy server that has very, very condensed activity. They are a force to be reckoned with during their prime time as they often run massive map Q sized zergs with multiple guilds working together. Outside that time zone, their activity is very sparse and can appear completely inactive.

[Crius.5487]

Zerg busting use to be a thing, watch some old videos of Red Guard.

 

 

 

The reason why it's not a thing anymore is it's much harder due to several factors including a constant power creep. Sustain use to also come from warriors and guardians blasting ele water fields. My guild use to hate running with pugs because you also had a guardian who wouldn't cancel hammer 1 and drop a light field inside the water as we start blasting. This is why it was much harder for pugs to sustain because of the coordination that was required. Now you just have a bunch of minstrel firebrands spamming their tomes for sustain without much coordination needed.

 

Many guilds would also run pinless in their own voice comms instead of one shared by the server. This is why in the video you see a target over the commander's head instead of a commander icon. Most of the pugs, not in voice comms, would flock to whoever had a commander icon. The end result you had a coordinated group using combo fields and finishers who are working together in voice comms against a group of uncoordinated pugs. it wasn't too difficult to 15v50 back then.

[Nordic Natedog.4360]

Someone asks for zerg busting and all I can say is Figrin Bomb. Here's one of my montages

 

I have other videos and most of the footage is very recent action.

[Supreme.7352]

I don't know if I would call that 'zerg-busting' persay. You're just laying AOEs while on walls or safe from behind. When you get into a fight you die. My idea of 'zerg busting' is actually causing serious harm to a zerg.

[Player.9621]

hard for a small group to do without no down state

not impossible but hard

[ArchonWing.9480]

Power creep and passive abilities have created a situation where the distance between the skill floor and ceiling is not that great and numbers become the dominant factor. There's only so much an individual can do, and the game already favored numbers to begin with, so it could only get worse especially considering balance for this game mode is nonexistent.

 

In addition, it was easier to take out disorganized zergs back then because most people had no idea of what they were doing. That doesn't mean they do now, but people probably learned a thing or two over the years through sheer repetition. And there's also little reason for non-wvw'ers to enter WvW as well means that you have a smaller population that is more serious about the game and aren't as farmable due to the above factors.

 

All of this contributes to a spiral where nobody takes them game seriously and they end up fighting bads, compounded with egos that prevent them from taking up actually challenging fights. Getting better is simply not important since it just wouldn't change much and one just needs to put the minimum effort requirement.

 

Basically, the game design encourages mediocrity, and that is not just restricted to wvw.

[Nordic Natedog.4360]

> @"Supreme.7352" said:

> I don't know if I would call that 'zerg-busting' persay. You're just laying AOEs while on walls or safe from behind. When you get into a fight you die. My idea of 'zerg busting' is actually causing serious harm to a zerg.

 

No, I am not just hiding. I have to pick my spots and hit hard creating downs for others (or myself at times) to clean up. Just because I down or die at times doesn't mean taking 4-8 others down with me isn't worth it. I could continue to show footage of groups pushing in after my burst, but that is far less interesting to watch.

 

If you mean taking 15 guys and taking on 50+. That simply can't happen any more with how the game changed. Best you can hope to do is hit and run tactics.

[Dawdler.8521]

Aside from the obvious class additions over the years tailored for zerging, one have to keep in mind the addition of the squad system as well. It set a new standard - a zerg is a 50 man, period. Anything below is an incomplete zerg. Then add the fact that raid guilds have dwindled in size and numbers - few will be able to field 25+ people today aside from casual community guilds. *And then* add powercreeped T3 structures that are nearly impossible to fight over anymore for anything but that 50 man zerg commiting to a single attack and you pretty much get how current WvW works. Raid guilds too small to zergbust and zergs too big to zergbust while the average group of players is caught between unable to do much.

[phs.6089]

> @"Player.9621" said:

> hard for a small group to do without no down state

> not impossible but hard

 

downs state, try to pill, get couple down, they get ressed you being walked over.

[jamesdolla.3954]

zerg busting is a thing. You need to be good and try hard and they need to be bad and thick. it's the same as it was back in the day but back in the day there was more casual bads than there is now.

[sostronk.8167]

Zerg busting guilds seem to burn out pretty quickly for some reason. I have had the pleasure of being involved with some of them in the past. There have been some great guilds and players. But for the most part, most of them have left the game after said burnout. I guess it's something to do with the high demand in both time and performance in something that really should only be a short distraction from your "real life".

[SloRules.3560]

Idk about you guys, but we defeated 45 man [KILL] group + 10-15 randoms in EBG just last week, with 15 + 10 randoms.

It's not easy and they have to make a mistake, but it is possible.

[derd.6413]

it's possible but hard now

in EotM you used to be able to wipe half zerg with a well placed spectral wall.

 

and if they where really daft, bait them of a cliff to their death and cancel your fall with spectral walk.

 

 

[Odinens.5920]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> > @"Supreme.7352" said:

 

>

> It used to be a thing before HoT, but with the 4 stat armors, concentration and e-spec powercreep it's now near impossible to pull off.

>

 

It was actually a thing right up until PoF and its condi-spam meta. Since PoF it's next to impossible to be a smaller zerg busting group. I know this because one of my WvW guilds was doing it until PoF.