Why we think WvW is not going well [Merged]

[Threather.9354]

Linking system is fine but theres few issues with the gamemode atm:

 

**- Large scale fights**; Ranged damage, boon removal and conditions as you said. Ranged damage should have longer cooldown similar to meteor shower, not be spammable every 5 secs like scourges and revs do these days. Let us go back to days when wellbombs and cooldowns were the key to winning the fight. Most AoE boons should have reduced duration, self-boons like stances are fine.

 

**- For servers with not enough coverage/skill:** Upgrade and supply system is ridiculous atm, SM and keeps upgrade too fast while being way too easy to defend. It has gotten to the point where the good players only leave spawn when they have a large group or they can go in/out of portals near friendly objectives. Also T3 walls/gates should be easier to take down and require more supply to repair.

 

**- LFG system and WvW promotion:** People just don't know when they can play WvW these days. Queues are pretty much gone outside few hours a day and even then the map can be getting destroyed by 3 times bigger group. Guilds also need like a tab in guild window to recruit players as there isn't true PvX guilds anymore due to megaservers in PvE/PvP maps.

 

**TLDR; Most apparent issues can be fixed tweaking some numbers which is easy to experiment with and all. The main issue however is stagnating playerbase and the fact that theres not enough new blood, guilds and commanders leading to lack of ambition, progression and discussion**

[Rayya.2591]

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> You guys all play the game wrong.

>

> -Too much Zerging

>

> There is no need to Zerg 24/7. WvW is an open world pvp. All the objectives require 1-5 people to capture at most unless defending numbers are greater.

> This has been the trend since 2015.

 

i am not sure what you actualy enjoy in this game, yet a fortified gate have curently 821.700 health while a ram hit for arround 4-5 k damage

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fortified_Gate

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ram_(Flame_Ram)

So considering there are no defenders you would need 10 minute to capture an undefended keep with a team of 5 players. On top of that the game play would be very interesting to stay on siege and hit dors all day

I honestly belive most players left wvw because they played the way you suggest.

 

However i consider a lot leaving wvw because there is no new content , is same maps since 6 years and same player since 6 years, because game fail to atract new players in wvw game mode

[HiImFromNA.3046]

Organizing a group takes effort. Most would argue to themselves that at most 3-4 blue/green items and 4 empyreal fragments taking towers is not worth the time+effort. Can extrapolate this as to why so few people want to pugmand and ktrain. If the rewards are good more people would tag up and take objectives. During world events and seasonal events ill tag up for PvE (outside WvW) events. WvW really is not worth it to me nor to most others. Perhaps if towers gave 1-2 rare items since killing a world boss takes about the same amount of time -- more people would tag up in WvW for minor ppt trains. Have killing the SMC/T3keep lord give a random Exotic item similar to raid rewards. Similar time investments/effort for reward similar to PvE would go a long way (or rather specifically the two above aspects.)

 

Something like:

T0-T1 Tower Lord: 1 rare item

T2-T3 Tower Lord: 2 rare items

T0-T2 Keep Lord: 2 rare items

T3 Keep Lord: 1 exotic item

T0-T2 SMC Lord: 2 rare items

T3 SMC Lord: 1 exotic item

[Aridon.8362]

No... You brand wvw by your playstyle of capping keeps and camps, but people like me have a different playstyle where the focus is fights. It's why my server cares more about killing the enemy more than ppting, and what makes my group of 40 people able to take down the entirety of the SF guild. We think that's our way of having fun in wvw instead of sitting on arrow cart for hours boasting about how good we are at using it.

 

What's actually killing WvW is that we need to worry about ppt in order to get better fights since different servers are on different skill levels.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Rayya.2591" said:

> > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > You guys all play the game wrong.

> >

> > -Too much Zerging

> >

> > There is no need to Zerg 24/7. WvW is an open world pvp. All the objectives require 1-5 people to capture at most unless defending numbers are greater.

> > This has been the trend since 2015.

>

> i am not sure what you actualy enjoy in this game, yet a fortified gate have curently 821.700 health while a ram hit for arround 4-5 k damage

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fortified_Gate

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ram_(Flame_Ram)

> So considering there are no defenders you would need 10 minute to capture an undefended keep with a team of 5 players. On top of that the game play would be very interesting to stay on siege and hit dors all day

> I honestly belive most players left wvw because they played the way you suggest.

>

> However i consider a lot leaving wvw because there is no new content , is same maps since 6 years and same player since 6 years, because game fail to atract new players in wvw game mode

 

As a WvW main, I find that a part of attracting new players falls on the dedicated WvW'ers. I myself have not only brought 15+ people ion the last 8 months (ish) to WvW, but they liked it so much they swapped to the same server as I. All I do is solo/duo roam as well as small scale command from time to time.

 

It is up to Anet however to make it easier for us so I can agree with you to a point.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> wvw died when tournaments were removed

Tournaments actively hurt WvW, in Anet's own words. Why are people so reluctant to accept that?

[Biermeister.4678]

WvW started dying when they made MEGA servers taking LA away from the Servers It use to be a gathering place for people on a server if there was a large blob taking a critical Keep you could do a call out in LA and get help Mega server got rid of that and destroyed the community

[displayname.8315]

What should we play instead a battle royal game or something? Yay hide in a corner for 45 mins then 3rd party a fight shoot them in the back. Maybe rocket league the air hockey game?

 

The pvp mode is too boring for me, wait in queue and it's often a blowout in the first min anyways if you get a bad rng team. The PVE is a no risk kiddy ride and raids look pretty lame. Not like you need to keep grinding gear in this game I finished that years ago.

[CrimsonNeonite.1048]

Server linkings, population imbalance and the usual bandwagons.

Server linkings still can't fix the population, nor can rewards. Players still stack on servers, but mostly not for the sake of winning matchups, when it comes to stacking on a T1 server.

 

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

skillag

 

really. It kills all the joy.

 

Lots of time and gear to invest, not much to gain for it

 

not really accessible for new players.

 

bandwaggoning. Hey, it is relink friday, hey it is saturday and two guilds leave the host, which is now dead! Awesome! And a lot of guilds are bandwaggoning to a smallish German server, making it an international one. Even more awesome.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said:

> > > To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

> >

> > i dont think that actually asking the players on a forum will provide more accurate information, than they can get out of their logs and statistics. while i personally would like to see them sharing more statistics etc. with their community, its also risky it can cause as much issues as not providing any info.

>

> Logs and statistics of damage and log in numbers are not necessarily what I am after. I am more interested in hearing people's feelings and concerns. There is a reason they have those feelings and concerns because of experiences they have had in the game, in working with WvW, playing it etc. Its clear something is causing them to feel that way and providing a way to address those feelings and concerns, a way for the community to express those feelings and concerns, provides them with a way dealing with those issues and maintaining a healthy game and community. Otherwise I generally feel many people's reaction would be to leave the game, but I think a healthier alternative would be to provide that feedback to the developers so they can improve the experience and maintain that community.

 

This issue with this approach, and we've seen it before, many times even, is that only the most disenfranchised players will complain. The ones who are actually happy won't post. Then a change comes and those who were complaining might be happy but others, who were silent before are now unhappy. You can get the whole place riled up with their discontent, and it may or may not be something that would be universally accepted even though there was what seemed like a universal call for it.

 

Before HoT came out, all we heard, over and over again, was that the game is too easy. We want challenging content. And yes, there was an occasional voice saying the game was too hard, often shouted down by people saying learn to play. For most people the game wasn't too hard and very few people complained about the challenging content. Then HOT came out and suddenly the game was too challenging. It was no longer for casuals. HoT was not a well accepted expansions.

 

So with all the complaints about HOT and they were myriad, Anet made POF...an anti-HOT and now we see a lot of people saying once they were done with POF, they went back to HoT. People complaining doesn't mean some sort of majority no matter how loud they are. It doesn't mean the ideas they espouse are good ideas or would work for the game. Hell, mounts were one of the best received additions to this game and the outcry against them in this community before they were released was huge.

 

I think the OP is overstated. WvW is not dead. WvW is not dying. It is less busy than it was years ago, but so are most six year old games. Most games suffer natural attrition over time. That's not necessarily a sign that WvW is horribly broken or that the issues have changed over the years. In fact, when it was busiest, there was this horrible culling problem where you often couldn't see enemies until you were already under attack. The rewards were worse too. There have always been plenty of complaints about WvW, even when it was busy.

 

By all means offer your feedback, but never mistake the fact that just because people complain, doesn't mean you're speaking for some sort of majority, or that the changes you're asking for will be well accepted by the playerbase after they go in...even if no one speaks out in opposition.

[Israel.7056]

I think people just need to lower their expectations. The game is 6 years old and it has changed a fair amount in that time but it's still fundamentally the same game it was at launch. Eventually it gets boring for a lot of people and there are also a lot of other games people can play instead. I think they've done a good job by making a game that's kept myself and many others interested for this long.

 

That being said I don't think they've ever figured out a way to monetize wvw to a degree that would make it financially rewarding enough for them to constantly focus on wvw updates over pve updates. In the case of wvw I think we mostly get what we pay for.

[steki.1478]

Wvw is dying because it's a competitive mode in a casual game. Veterans, skilled players and commanders will eventually get bored of doing same thing over and over again. New players are unmotivated and don't put any effort because they dont need to. Everyone logs in when they want, look for karma train commander to get some pips, reward track rewards, GoB etc. and that's it. Even when you organize fights in voice chat you get people who just mindlessly follow tag and die on first push (and no, not all of them are just bad veterans, people just dont care).

 

Wvw competitiveness today is being able to hide behind the siege for the longest amount of time and being able to flip uograded objectives while enemy is asleep since you have a fat link who plays in different time zone.

 

People don't play for fun, they play for champ bags. When there's nothing more to flip they become loot for blobs who's after loot bags. The never ending cycle. Then you have so called roamers who never walk outside of spawn before half of their family and friends logs in since they cant do anything on their own besides flip a sentry or get a veteran daily (aka farming pips and loot).

 

Hopefully people just realise that pve loot is much better and wvw becomes waste of time for them. You won't get much competitive play outside of gvg anyway.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Here is my idea. If you want something to be done, do it yourself. Go make your own game and design it EXACTLY the way you want it to play for you. Then watch how many people who play your game cry and moan about how this or that should be done instead. No way is perfect for everybody. You can please most of the people some of the time, some of the people most of the time, but you can't please everybody all of the time. Sometimes you have to trust that your voice is being heard, it just may not be feasible for your idea to be implemented or synonymous with the goal and direction of those that made the game.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > wvw died when tournaments were removed

> Tournaments actively hurt WvW, in Anet's own words. Why are people so reluctant to accept that?

 

because anet is wrong.

[gitflap.9031]

Apparently WvW has been dying for years. It's taking a very long time to do it is all. Dunno about NA but EU has enough regular players for 1 Spanish, 2 French, 3 German, and 6 "English" servers. Roughly. For a game that came out in 2012, I think that's pretty impressive.

 

(edit for punctuation)

 

(and typo)

[HazyDaisy.4107]

> @"displayname.8315" said:

> What should we play instead

 

The next LS may hit soon and after that Wintersday, I for one am very excited at both prospects

[PrinceKhaled.5104]

I woke up and read all these comments. I am a big fan of most of them specially @"XenesisII.1540" and @"subversiontwo.7501" . Really great responses.

 

I wasn't planning on quoting anyone but this response is special:

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Here is my idea. If you want something to be done, do it yourself. Go make your own game and design it EXACTLY the way you want it to play for you. Then watch how many people who play your game cry and moan about how this or that should be done instead. No way is perfect for everybody. You can please most of the people some of the time, some of the people most of the time, but you can't please everybody all of the time.

 

I don't want to name another game on GW2 forum, while I agree with you about " you can't please everybody all the time", but you can please big amount of crowd versus less. Look at the successful games on the market now (without naming). These games has 100X population than GW2, does it mean everybody likes it? No, but they were able to "please" more people than GW2 team is doing. There is a lot of other factors there, such as marketing etc (I understand).

 

 

Thank you guys for sharing, please keep it going and share your opinion, there is nothing wrong with that.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Not going well because transfers are still allowed to occur. Here is the problems (This is from an EB point of view because that is where everyone generally gathers):

 

From the Bandwagoner point of view:

 

You get a bunch of people/guilds that bandwagon to a server (in this case we have it happening on about 3 servers at the moment). Even despite stacking themselves, they still terribly suck, but because they have so many peeps in a particular time slot, it's next to impossible to deal with. So for the bandwagoners, they repeatedly die if the numbers are even or if the enemies refuse to engage and attack their tail. The end result is, they aren't getting very many kills or very many bags. They are relegated to repeatedly flipping paper structures while the enemies they drastically outnumber camp their keep and destroy the bandwagoners when they get close. But because the enemies are outnumbered, they don't have a hope in hell of coming out to do anything. It's a stalemate with the exception, the bandwagoners drop tiers yielding less people to fight/kill. So they jump ship again... rinse and repeat. Doesn't matter how much of a zergling one is, this has to get tiresome real quick potentially causing people to log in less and less.

 

From people whom are outnumbered:

 

You're basically stuck defending, and only end up killing the bandwagoners when they get close to the keep, or if the bandwagoners get bored and attack the keep, repeatedly dying. As the outnumbered look at it, there is basically nothing to do other than this. You either sit in your keep, or you log. Here is where you'll likely find people logging in less and less.

 

The sole reason behind this is the ability to transfer and many players/guilds attitudes have no interest in evenness or fairness, they simply want easy fights and bags (though ironically is them farmed more often than not).

 

So in answer to your question OP in letting the Devs know why WvW is going well, it's because they allow transfers. Because you can't change the players attitudes to want to engage in fair play, Anet needs to take their ability away to stack themselves, simple as that. Take those current 3 servers that have stacked themselves, and simply blow them up; take all guilds that moved there and split them all up among other servers, and lock all the servers down permanently until alliances hit, no more transfers.

[Novahh.7426]

How else will we all get UD

[aspirine.6852]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"HazyDaisy.4107" said:

> > Linking's started with the phrase "Wvw is dying". Everything that has happened since is our own faults.

> Started? Fairly sure people have been saying that WvW has been dying from 2013 and that Camelot Unchained would totally kill it once that released in 2015 or whatever it was.

>

 

hahha Camelot, I remember people talking about it in WvW chat, that they could not wait for it to be out next year. This was back in 2016. And they are noway near even now, wont even be before 2020 :P

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"HazyDaisy.4107" said:

> > > Linking's started with the phrase "Wvw is dying". Everything that has happened since is our own faults.

> > Started? Fairly sure people have been saying that WvW has been dying from 2013 and that Camelot Unchained would totally kill it once that released in 2015 or whatever it was.

> >

>

> hahha Camelot, I remember people talking about it in WvW chat, that they could not wait for it to be out next year. This was back in 2016. And they are noway near even now, wont even be before 2020 :P

 

Then there was crowfall as well. Did that ever happen?

[XenesisII.1540]

Think people were dumb in expecting a mmo to be developed in 2-3 years from scratch, it had just received it's first funding in 2013, mmo's typically take 5+ years. It just went into beta this past summer, par for the course. Crowfall was announced and funded in 2015, take a wild guess when the release might be..

[Tiny Doom.4380]

No six year old MMO grows. They all shrink, just some faster than others. They have periodic resurgences when major expansions appear, when new ruleset servers are promoted or when they get a burst of publicity for some reason like a major anniversary but the population trend is always, inexorably downwards.

 

For a game at this stage of its life, GW2 in general is doing reasonably well. WvW has underperformed on original expectations, sure, but again, given that it's a maintenance-mode, non-essential PvPvE add-on to a largely PvE game it's doing well to still be populated at all. There's the hail mary pass of the Alliance restructuring to come and that, regardless of whether it works, will be the last major revamp WvW gets. It may be interesting to speculate on what *might* be done but nothing other than what's already been announced *will* be done.

 

Just play it for what it is if you still enjoy it or move on. It's not going to change now.

[Junkpile.7439]

Reason is scourge. You can almost spam skill that should have like minute cool down. :angry: