When your game mode is dominated by 2 professions...you know something is wrong

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its always been guards and necs. firebrand and scourge do way too much that's why its so effective to stack them. imo scourge should lose boonrip/ some offense and go more into support. firebrand boon spam/some heals need to go down.

[subversiontwo.7501]

>Balancing of the other classes is a must

Look friend, I'm on record saying multiple times that an issue with PoF is that Anet has been too unattentive to balance. My only issue with this thread is that balance points have not been argued, popularity points have. That is a poor approach to balance. Stick to arguing about the things that are actually imbalanced instead. Give critique but be constructive and understanding of the implementation from where we are to where we can go.

 

Most of the most pressing actual balance issues are as simple as reducing some size and range. Secondary balance issues like the balance between offense and defense or what should be boons and effects (or standard or unique mechanics) is a bit deeper but hardly rocket science.

[Jski.6180]

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> Look friend, I'm on record saying multiple times that an issue with PoF is that Anet has been too unattentive to balance. My only issue with this thread is that balance points have not been argued, popularity points have. That is a poor approach to balance. Stick to arguing about the things that are actually imbalanced instead. Give critique but be constructive and understanding of the implementation from where we are to where we can go.

>

> Most of the most pressing actual balance issues are as simple as reducing some size and range. Secondary balance issues like the balance between offense and defense or what should be boons and effects (or standard or unique mechanics) is a bit deeper but hardly rocket science.

 

I get what your saying but wvw is not a nice places any more to have fun unless you already know the right ppl or playing the right class in the right way. Unless your an amassing driver or super memely there is no hope and no amount of positively is working. I tried for years its only gotten worst.

[Acyk.9671]

What you are claiming was only partially true at PoF Release where optimized 50 men Zergs were made of :

**FB: 10 to 20

Scourge 20 to 30

Spellbreaker: 5**

(Chronomancer: 5) not required

 

Now optimized Zergs:

**FB: 10

Scourge: 15 (up to 20)

Herald: 10

Chronomancer: 5

Spellbreaker: 5

Scrapper: 2/3

Weaver: 3**

 

Meta Zergs are less reliant on FB/Scourge than a year ago and if you look more closely to the video (NA guild), that's the kind of comp you will see. Daredevil/Tempest are mostly for guilds since it relies more on the player's level itself than the class use in large scale fights.

 

IF you want a comparison with vanilla meta and HoT Meta:

 

Vanilla (more or less):

**20 Guards

10 War

3 to 5 Elem

10 to 15 Necro**

2 Mesmer

(2 thieves)

 

HoT:

**15 to 20 Guards

10 Herald

5 to 10 Tempest

5 Chrono

10 Reaper**

5ish Berserker

(2druids)

 

Zergs' comps are dependant on which class a Commander has access to and my numbers can't exactly reflect every possibilities but overall FB 's introduction gave more room in squad to players to play something else than guards. You could still play 20 FB like you played 20 guards but, it's far from mandatory and even an overkill in my opinon. Scrapper offer more cleanse/heal and superspeed, while Chronomancer offers a lot of CC + best boonsharing.

Tempest is mostly underperforming in zergs because of lack of personnal stab (WoD and Scourge) and partly because of Fb's protection uptime (which has been nerfed).

As you can see, melee specs like holosmith, and reaper are the big absents in the current meta for the same reason as tempest: WoD and Scourge (aoe field control)

The last patch made the meta more forgiving but without a change of radius on WoD, shade, breach and a decrease of power damage on F5 Shroud, nothing will really change...

 

 

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > The only classes without a place in the meta right now are thieves and rangers.

> > >

> > > Balance is actually pretty decent right now imo.

> > Fairly sure both are meta roaming and coincidentally, it's 2 of the classes dominating it.

>

> Roaming is nothing more than ego stroking....useless in the current era with the atrocious balance , in the past maybe where people took duelling serious and ganking was deemed an immoral act, in the past people used to rely on dodges and clever manouvres to outwit the enemy..today is just facerolling between one invulnerability phase and another, stealth camping and other kitten...nothing , I decided , was worth investing time into

 

Some like engaging gameplay and some like spamming 1, each to thier own.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > The only classes without a place in the meta right now are thieves and rangers.

> >

> > Balance is actually pretty decent right now imo.

> Fairly sure both are meta roaming and coincidentally, it's 2 of the classes dominating it.

 

Both of those classes are extremely effective at picking. It's something I very much enjoy doing myself but, as a solo player, it's a lot harder unless it's near or inside an objective.

 

With friends, it becomes exponentially more significant the kind of damage you can do. There are some guilds that occasionally do it, but very few. One I saw recently, [Mirk], was doing a super good job with just 2 Soulbeasts, which I find really cool because it adds an exciting dynamic to zerging. If you have a couple players working together on the fringe of large groups, the large groups are either going to need a few players _in_ their zerg working against the pickers, or they're going to slowly lose all their damage dealers.

 

I _really,_ really want more people to start playing like this. Form up some guilds with Rangers, Thieves, Engi's or what ever you prefer to play, and comp yourselves to pick zergs apart. Spread out and regroup, call targets, bring mobility, bait chasers, scout locations, etc. There's a lot more effort involved than being one of the many cogs of a large zerg, but it's also a lot more exciting. Anyone who does this regularly, you have my respect (and interest in being recruited if ever you need me :D).

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Mhhh....

7/9 Classes have a Meta Build for WvW.

Sure, most zergs have more scourges then other classes but that’s mostly because its harder to find weaver, scrapper , mesmer ....

 

The only problem is that scourge is extremly easy to play, while you need atleast some brain for the other.

 

And dont get me started on unfair loot distribution.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> Mhhh....

> 7/9 Classes have a Meta Build for WvW.

> Sure, most zergs have more scourges then other classes but that’s mostly because its harder to find weaver, scrapper , mesmer ....

>

> The only problem is that scourge is extremly easy to play, while you need atleast some brain for the other.

>

> And dont get me started on unfair loot distribution.

 

i do find rev/weaver much easier to play than scourge, they simply got more range and can easier position themselves.

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

Lately I see alot of revs running around in zergs. Most of the times even more revs than scourges...

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"geist.4126" said:

> Most times I die in zergs isn't by scourges but by hammer revs or ele fields while stunned because my stability stacks are gone in a second and I'm out of dodges.

 

Exactly. Normally I play Hammer Rev but had a few days off last week, and decided to take my Scourge out. It was a big difference for me. Compared to my Rev where I am backline and regularly finishing off downed players with Hammer 2, here I was running on tag creating those downed players by alternating pressing F1-F5 and my 2 wells.

 

But the only way Scourge is going to consistently finish off players via AoE is if your squad has a boatload of them, and they stack tight and focus their bombs. Outside of that you'll need support from your squad to finish off the enemy.

 

[biczkowski.2961]

sure it's classes and not adolescent sperg "commanders" shouting in voice?

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> its always been guards and necs. firebrand and scourge do way too much that's why its so effective to stack them. imo scourge should lose boonrip/ some offense and go more into support. firebrand boon spam/some heals need to go down.

 

Boon rip is the only source of damage for condi, devs never built scourge for power specs. Power specs are only used because condi specs were gutted and fortunately necromancers have axe3 skill and spite traitline. If you remove boonrip then necromancer whole class will be excluded from wvw because wvw zerging is the only thing it can do right now. Please do not comeback with power reaper and tank condi core build for roaming as reply because i'd rather play power holosmith or condi mirage to be 100 times better doing the exact same thing.

 

You cannot push scourge to support untill you remove boon corrupt and even if you do, necromancer class do not have tools to handle and output boons and healing effectively thus not being able to do support job.

 

Whole class needs rework, weapon skills, utility skills, traits and espec too.

 

Scourge boon rip meta is not fun for both people suffering from it and necromancers themselves.

 

What i think can be a starting point for rework is the staff. Rework it into better utility weapon without aoe(good animations ;-; ). Reworking necro staff will reduce a LOT of aoe thrown around in zergs and will make the wvw experience better for everyone including necromancers.

[Sovereign.1093]

today is patch day, we will know if this holds still after changes.

 

p.s. i regret starting the fb scourge at pof launch for making it popular. and at the same time rev scourge beats fb scourge. also the team with chrono double prismatic will always catch the team who is not ready.

 

wvw is fb rev scourge chrono.

 

these 4 just works too well. cant blame the devs, their imagination is only 2 out of 10. players really push it to get the best out of the classes. thats just how it is.

 

some players will always set the bar and those who are not skilled will always be farmed.

 

now for those who want to farm puggies out there, take advantage of quickness by chronos. any skill that hits more than once can be buffed by this. scourge, gs guard, weaver meteors.

 

prior to patch, these are some of the chese the smart coms out there know. so those who are not in the in, you are welcome.

 

 

[Rampage.7145]

Herald Renegade Chrono Scrapper Firebrand spellbreaker weaver tempest scourge even reapers. There are more viable specs for WvW, for zerging alone, than never before tbh, people who think is only FB and scourge are just bads who never played with a good guild and whatnot.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

 

 

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > its always been guards and necs. firebrand and scourge do way too much that's why its so effective to stack them. imo scourge should lose boonrip/ some offense and go more into support. firebrand boon spam/some heals need to go down.

>

> Boon rip is the only source of damage for condi, devs never built scourge for power specs. Power specs are only used because condi specs were gutted and fortunately necromancers have axe3 skill and spite traitline. If you remove boonrip then necromancer whole class will be excluded from wvw because wvw zerging is the only thing it can do right now. Please do not comeback with power reaper and tank condi core build for roaming as reply because i'd rather play power holosmith or condi mirage to be 100 times better doing the exact same thing.

>

 

Agree 100%

 

> @"Rampage.7145" said:

> Herald Renegade Chrono Scrapper Firebrand spellbreaker weaver tempest scourge even reapers. There are more viable specs for WvW, for zerging alone, than never before tbh, people who think is only FB and scourge are just bads who never played with a good guild and whatnot.

 

I think you misunderstand the point of the thread. Let me put it this way: 2 opposing squads composed of 25 players each of equal skill and gear, but only 1 of those squads has FBs and Scourges; that squad will win the fight each and every time without question. When all else is equal (skill, gear, numbers, etc), it comes down to Firebrands and Scourges, as they define the zerg meta, and are equal opposites in the WvW arms race.

 

The only thing that can combat the boonspam of a Firebrand is the Scourge

The only thing that can out-sustain the boon corrupt of the Scourge is the Firebrand

 

Happy accident or strategic class design? /shrugs

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > its always been guards and necs. firebrand and scourge do way too much that's why its so effective to stack them. imo scourge should lose boonrip/ some offense and go more into support. firebrand boon spam/some heals need to go down.

>

>If you remove boonrip then necromancer

> You cannot push scourge to support

> What i think can be a starting point for rework is the staff

I said scourge not necro

yes, you can

lol staff is fine

 

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"Rampage.7145" said:

> Herald Renegade Chrono Scrapper Firebrand spellbreaker weaver tempest scourge even reapers. There are more viable specs for WvW, for zerging alone, than never before tbh, people who think is only FB and scourge are just bads who never played with a good guild and whatnot.

 

Other specs being viable does not negate what the OP states.

 

Take scrapper healbot for example, yes it is a viable spec for zerging, but that does not change that firebrand and scourge are ridiculously dominant. Out of 50 players 50% or more will typically be FB/Scourge, 2 of 9 classes accounting for 50%+ of the places, that in itself is pathetic. Meanwhile that viable scrapper healbot you only want 2 or 3.

 

Then the icing on the cake is you don't even need those scrappers, sure it might be marginally optimal to have a couple, but you'll still be able to have your zerg without them, unlike FB/Scourge which are basically a requirement.

 

As for "bads", I hate to break it to you but a pretty dead, relatively low skilled game mode in a 6 year old MMORPG is not the place good gamers are hanging out. (and that includes most of the players in "good" guilds)

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > its always been guards and necs. firebrand and scourge do way too much that's why its so effective to stack them. imo scourge should lose boonrip/ some offense and go more into support. firebrand boon spam/some heals need to go down.

> >

> >If you remove boonrip then necromancer

> > You cannot push scourge to support

> > What i think can be a starting point for rework is the staff

> I said scourge not necro

> yes, you can

> lol staff is fine

>

 

Lol i will negate others opinion with any solid reasoning behind it and act like its so funny hahaha lmao.

[Rampage.7145]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

>

>

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

 

> I think you misunderstand the point of the thread. Let me put it this way: 2 opposing squads composed of 25 players each of equal skill and gear, but only 1 of those squads has FBs and Scourges; that squad will win the fight each and every time without question. When all else is equal (skill, gear, numbers, etc), it comes down to Firebrands and Scourges, as they define the zerg meta, and are equal opposites in the WvW arms race.

 

this analogy can be made for every class too, like usually a team with no winds will lose to a team with 2 winds, usually a team with no Mesmer will lose to a team with Mesmer a team with no revs will lose to a team whit revs a team with no heal scrappers will lose to a team with heal scrappers, like u need a nice balance of every class tbh.

In fact, in the past u needed 2 guardians per party to sustain, nowdays u need only 1 so if anything PoF just gave people more classes/party composition options, bringing the warrior back to the meta, giving engi a top tier zerg build they can play now without killing any of the predominant HoT meta classes like tempest, chrono and herald. There is more diversity in group composition now than ever before in GW2, you would know this if you were part of any skilled WvW guild.

[shiri.4257]

> I think you misunderstand the point of the thread. Let me put it this way: 2 opposing squads composed of 25 players each of equal skill and gear, but only 1 of those squads has FBs and Scourges; that squad will win the fight each and every time without question. When all else is equal (skill, gear, numbers, etc), it comes down to Firebrands and Scourges, as they define the zerg meta, and are equal opposites in the WvW arms race.

 

This scenario has never occurred and will never happen. This scenario is just a figment of your imagination. There's only the winner and the loser. once you've come to terms with this, you can become the greatest wvw player ever!

 

It is relative to who your opponent is. but wvw players have become so incompetent, they are fixated on a set "comp" vs looking at what they're up against and counter comp. Do i bring a scrapper to every raid? no, relative to scenario. Do i need 2 FB per party? No, relative to opponent. Do I prefer a herald over scourge? No, relative to how I want to setup my engage at 1200 or 900 range. Do I need an SB for winds? Again, relative to the fight, but can make do without.

 

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> As for "bads", I hate to break it to you but a pretty dead, relatively low skilled game mode in a 6 year old MMORPG is not the place good gamers are hanging out. (and that includes most of the players in "good" guilds)

 

Good and bad are specific to the game in question and the genre of game more generally they're not universal qualities that transcend knowledge and experience . There are no gamers who are good universally there are gamers who get very good at specific games and gaming genres through tens of thousands of hours of practice and contemplative reflection. You could take any random pro gamer from a completely different game genre and drop them into WvW and they would get rolled for a year by someone like me or better just like anyone else because they don't know the game, they won't understand the meta, they won't have the muscle memory for their class, they won't have experience of the fights to have the ability to anticipate rather than just react etc etc, they will be bad just like every other bad except they will have the understanding of the process of getting good and so they will progress over time whereas most bad players have never gotten good at any game so they won't understand how to go from bad to good so they will stay bad forever. Most of the good players in the really good guilds are actually very very good at this particular game because they've got an enormous number of hrs played and have been in thousands of WvW fights and that's why there's such a gap in competence between novice and veteran.

 

The problem I have with the OP's post is that it betrays a certain tendency I have noticed among very bad theorycrafters to only see the big picture at a very low resolution. In this case he sees a lot of firebrands and scourges in every group he encounters and so he equates representation with power and/or importance and in doing so he misses the crucial impact of every other thing in the squad. It is true that firebrands and scourges are tremendously impactful and that firebrands serve as the core support to every group but it's also true that almost every class has an important and incredibly impactful role to play in the current meta, perhaps more so than ever before in the history of this game, at least that I can remember. So what if there's only one or two spots open for "healbot" engineers in most comps? That's one or two spots that would've just went to a guard for most of the game's history and they currently play an enormously impactful role and in some cases carry in ways guardians cannot.

 

**The goal of balance should not be to make every class indistinguishable from one another so that they all become interchangeable in a comp but rather to give unique personality to each class and give their kits unique impact so that they can find their place in a squad.** I actually think that Anet has come closer to accomplishing this goal at present in WvW than perhaps ever before in the life of this game. How so many people are failing to realize this is beyond me.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Hi wvw is more then zerging thanks bye

[Junkpile.7439]

That is some skilled gameplay :D

[Lahmia.2193]

Organised zerg fighting pugs. Not really position to argue against anything.

[Rampage.7145]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > @"Rampage.7145" said:

> > Herald Renegade Chrono Scrapper Firebrand spellbreaker weaver tempest scourge even reapers. There are more viable specs for WvW, for zerging alone, than never before tbh, people who think is only FB and scourge are just bads who never played with a good guild and whatnot.

>

> Other specs being viable does not negate what the OP states.

>

> Take scrapper healbot for example, yes it is a viable spec for zerging, but that does not change that firebrand and scourge are ridiculously dominant. Out of 50 players 50% or more will typically be FB/Scourge, 2 of 9 classes accounting for 50%+ of the places, that in itself is pathetic. Meanwhile that viable scrapper healbot you only want 2 or 3.

>

> Then the icing on the cake is you don't even need those scrappers, sure it might be marginally optimal to have a couple, but you'll still be able to have your zerg without them, unlike FB/Scourge which are basically a requirement.

>

> As for "bads", I hate to break it to you but a pretty dead, relatively low skilled game mode in a 6 year old MMORPG is not the place good gamers are hanging out. (and that includes most of the players in "good" guilds)

 

Only reasson Scourge and FB are so dominant on pug zergs it is because they are the easiest classes to play right, on guild compositions where u have skilled players u can get away to play higher skill celling classes and this is what good guilds do imo, sure u will see a lot of FBs and scourges but wasnt the same case since the start of the game tho? wasnt double guard party mandatory for zerging since the start? double guards basically meant that 40% to 50% of the whole zerg were guardians alone, plus at least 1 necro per party that mean before PoF guards and necros were between 60% and 80% of the whole zerg, with PoF this number greatly reduced, the optimal setup needs only 1FB 1 scourge per party currently, sure some parties may have 2 FBs or 2 scourges but it is not optimal for zerging.