Stand The Wall.6987 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > No one has disputed this fact. Everyone is in agreement about this. seemed like the discussion was veering off in favor of opinions, but I did come in late so I may be off base here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 If we are going into opinions: Yes I think necros are on the lowish side of everything in pve, and yes the game requires some more skill split. it is absolutely ridiculous that a spec which offers little to nothing such as scourge, underperforms even in the support route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Swamurabi.7890" said: > But both Necro and Ele suffer from the same things. It's their class theme and the mechanics of one game mode and the lack of skill splitting that is causing both classes to suffer. > > Lowering Ele DPS to make them less meta in PvE would make them even more irrelevant in PvP where their low health is their glaring weakness. > Raising Necro DPS to make them desirable in PvE makes them OP in PvP, even though they still need to be babysat in PvP. > > It's Anet's stubbornness in splitting skills that's hurting both classes I'll have to disagree with you, the necromancer and the elementalist's problems are similar but the elementalist issue have nothing to do with it's dps. Even if ANet chose to gut the elementalist's strong PvE dps tools, it wouldn't really affect PvP. Don't get me wrong, in PvE the elementalist rely on it's ability to stack aoe under it's foe's feet to reach it's maximum dps efficiency and such tactic is just irrelevant in PvP. Where the necromancer lack raw damage in PvE, the elementalist lack the ability to open window of opportunity to land it's burst in PvP. Nerfing elementalist's damage don't really affect it's performance in PvP. Yes, as player it feel like this is the problem but even if those damage were boosted through the roof the elementalist's would still be in the same lame spot in sPvP. Honnestly the problems are very different even if they look similar. More skillsplit might help the necromancer in PvE since ANet's policy for skillsplit is to only touch numbers, however this wouldn't help the elementalist at all. All in all, the elementalist's issue could be sumed up as: Water magic. It's not that the traitline is bad, it's that the traitline carry the elementalist in PvP to the point that it's essential to use it. Elementalists just can't work in sPvP without the sustain and the condi cleanse that this traitline provide because their active skills lack the tools to do these jobs. You could say that fire magic now have condi cleanse and weaver don't lack evade but none of those allow the elementalist to really unleash it's burst with it's mind at ease. If anything, I think that ANet should severly reduce the purely offensive dual attunment skills cast time, which aren't really justified anyway. This wouldn't solve the issue but at least it would make weaver's life better in sPvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Swamurabi.7890" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Swamurabi.7890" said: > > > Maybe the Necro community should ask Gaile to start a "Concerns for Necro" thread > > > > To have such attention, you need to repeatedly open threads about how bad the profession is in the sPvP subforum. The necromancer having a strong niche in this gamemode make such threads irelevant... Worse, If we did it, ANet would probably flood us with more PvP tools when it's the fact that our tools are to focused on PvP that the necromancer can't reach the average level of efficiency in PvE. > > > > Also, I don't think that the "concern for elementalist" thread led to any good change to the profession since it's been created. At best, this thread act like the mesmer's skill _Decoy_ at the moment. _Break stun_ -> "Don't go elsewhere! We are there, we listen to you!" -> _stealth mode activated_. > > But both Necro and Ele suffer from the same things. It's their class theme and the mechanics of one game mode and the lack of skill splitting that is causing both classes to suffer. > > Lowering Ele DPS to make them less meta in PvE would make them even more irrelevant in PvP where their low health is their glaring weakness. > Raising Necro DPS to make them desirable in PvE makes them OP in PvP, even though they still need to be babysat in PvP. > > It's Anet's stubbornness in splitting skills that's hurting both classes Necromancers problems move well beyond skill splitting not being employed enough. A lot of the core issues that plague Necromancer would not be resolved with skill splitting so ANet's perceived stubbornness on the issue really has no bearing. This focus on pure DPS continues to create problems that really don't help in terms of offering ANet solid critiques of Necromancer's issues and how to best resolve them. Also, folks really need to stop talking about being babysat as if it were a bad thing. PvP in this game is a team activity. People are meant to work as a team. There is nothing wrong with support builds needing a babysitter as they are support and it helps them perform their job better when they are able to focus on support. If PvP wasn't a team sport in which there is a lower emphasis on going out there and killing folks then needing a babysitter would be a bad thing. This isn't the case though. I see far too many games lost because people didn't get the teamwork aspect and all they wanted to go do was duel the opposing team. Meanwhile, the opposing team is racking up points because while everyone is tied up fighting it out their roamer is capping points for their team and decapping points for the opposing team. I've seen a lot of loses that can be attributed to a lack of support and/or a lack of a babysitter helping out the entire team as a whole. Even the professions and builds that don't need a babysitter can easily be hacked to pieces when they don't have one but the other team does have one to support not only the support of the team but the death-dealing squad on the team. Pretty much everyone on a team benefits from a well-played babysitter, not just the support builds that need it. Even when I'm playing one of my builds that is good at dueling and killing I always do better when I'm being babysat as it removes the pressure to play perfectly and minor mistakes don't spell doom. Since PvP is a team game that places it focus on things other than killing other people needing a babysitter to work is not a bad thing. > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > No one has disputed this fact. Everyone is in agreement about this. > seemed like the discussion was veering off in favor of opinions, but I did come in late so I may be off base here. > > The nature of the conversation, at least from my end and others who are advancing a similar position, is not that Necromancer doesn't have problems. The idea that Necromancer needs some mechanical changes to improve its performance is something we all agree on, even if other people, such as the OP, try to paint us as not acknowledging the problems of Necromancer. The point of contention from our end is that Necromancer players are not as helpless as some folks, again such as the OP, argue and that despite Necromancer's shortcomings it can complete the content, though clearly not at the level of other professions. Since it can complete such content (and we have even gone so far as to support such case with videos of it being done) we are arguing that if you learn how to group you can avoid some of the toxicity that prevents Necromancer from being allowed into groups. It is our position that you can either be passive and complain to ANet and hope at some point the changes you think are needed come or you can be proactive and take your play experience into your own hands and work to find people who aren't dismissive or prejudiced against Necromancer. That doesn't mean that Necromancer is fine and doesn't need fixing. It just means that it is not completely useless to the point that it can't perform. Necromancer's low DPS can be mitigated so that people can still play the end game content with their favorite profession. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Swamurabi.7890" said: > > But both Necro and Ele suffer from the same things. It's their class theme and the mechanics of one game mode and the lack of skill splitting that is causing both classes to suffer. > > > > Lowering Ele DPS to make them less meta in PvE would make them even more irrelevant in PvP where their low health is their glaring weakness. > > Raising Necro DPS to make them desirable in PvE makes them OP in PvP, even though they still need to be babysat in PvP. > > > > It's Anet's stubbornness in splitting skills that's hurting both classes > > I'll have to disagree with you, the necromancer and the elementalist's problems are similar but the elementalist issue have nothing to do with it's dps. Even if ANet chose to gut the elementalist's strong PvE dps tools, it wouldn't really affect PvP. Don't get me wrong, in PvE the elementalist rely on it's ability to stack aoe under it's foe's feet to reach it's maximum dps efficiency and such tactic is just irrelevant in PvP. > > Where the necromancer lack raw damage in PvE, the elementalist lack the ability to open window of opportunity to land it's burst in PvP. Nerfing elementalist's damage don't really affect it's performance in PvP. Yes, as player it feel like this is the problem but even if those damage were boosted through the roof the elementalist's would still be in the same lame spot in sPvP. > > Honnestly the problems are very different even if they look similar. More skillsplit might help the necromancer in PvE since ANet's policy for skillsplit is to only touch numbers, however this wouldn't help the elementalist at all. All in all, the elementalist's issue could be sumed up as: Water magic. It's not that the traitline is bad, it's that the traitline carry the elementalist in PvP to the point that it's essential to use it. Elementalists just can't work in sPvP without the sustain and the condi cleanse that this traitline provide because their active skills lack the tools to do these jobs. You could say that fire magic now have condi cleanse and weaver don't lack evade but none of those allow the elementalist to really unleash it's burst with it's mind at ease. If anything, I think that ANet should severly reduce the purely offensive dual attunment skills cast time, which aren't really justified anyway. This wouldn't solve the issue but at least it would make weaver's life better in sPvP. I think this is a really solid breakdown. I just wanted to add that in addition to Water Arcane often has to be taken to shore up Elementalist current weakness. This leaves Core Elementalist with little room for build variation and it pretty much traps Tempest and Weaver into a small subset of builds centered around Water and Arcane. This creates a similar problem that Revenant faces in which due to some of its shortcomings build diversity drops as there is only so much you can do when everyone is using the same three specializations. This also has the side effect of making such professions easily predictable as everyone becomes very familiar with those builds and countering them becomes second nature. Thus making winning in PvP more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 2, 2018 Author Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > This thread is litereally @"Obtena.7952" and @"DragonFury.6243" throwing insults at each other :confused: i am very sorry about that but i cant help it but all i can say is i am sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > > > And you either dont raid or get carried by your team. And you spend your time talking with authority about necros place in raids, this is truely pathetic. Again i have my cm titles. Killed all but samerog in cm with necro. Have you? You sound like climate change denier the news puts up next to scientists during interviews. You haven't got a clue. > > > > That's not the experience I have ingame playing my necro ... because I have figured out how to play. If that's you experience, I feel sorry for you because you can do something to change that. > > we all wrong and you are the only one who have no problem that is the very definition of a something that i cant say any more because i just got a warning so i cant respond more than that > seems fair i call you something and i get a warning and you call me the same and got nothing now this treatment make me feel i am a necro main after all > > PS > the first thread i make on the same subject got deleted about 2 month ago and i gess this one also in the near future > feelsbadman This isn't a me vs. everyone else thing; there are lots of people who have learned to play necro and get teams for raids; You have even been provided video evidence of it that you requested. Maybe you didn't watch the video, or maybe you think it's just more lies in a conspiracy theory to prevent you from raiding. Not sure what the barrier is here, but be assured, people do learn to play, get teams and raid on their necros, regardless of a lack of anything the class has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > _snips_ alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 Im not fighting anyone me and dace talked about the intricacies of the class and balance.Not once did I or he insult each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkon.2170 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd. https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4 Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4 On the sPvP side of problems:* * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!. * I get out ranged by every fking class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback. * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility. * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar. * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well. * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential. * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options. *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill. As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table. https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Farkon.2170" said: > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd. > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4 > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4 > > On the sPvP side of problems:* > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!. > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback. > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility. > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar. > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well. > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential. > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options. > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill. > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table. > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible. In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 2, 2018 Author Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Farkon.2170" said: > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd. > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4 > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4 > > On the sPvP side of problems:* > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!. > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback. > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility. > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar. > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well. > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential. > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options. > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill. > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table. > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png > every one is telling me you are playing the wrong profession in PvP my team till me to Q with a support because we dont want to carry this profession in PvE i get insta kick because no one want to carry this profession example  > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue) yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Crinny.6190 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 lol Necro is OP in PvP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue) > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents No, you don't get that all the time; that's just you lacking comprehension ... or purposefully misinterpreting. Either way, the DPS a profession is capable of is not dependent on knowing how to play or team up. The DPS ceiling is simply a function of an optimal rotation of skills. Now, the ACTUAL DPS a person can execute with a profession and a specific build .. that IS dependent on knowing how to play. But make sure you understand the difference between what the theoretical and actual DPS outputs are based on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"Farkon.2170" said: > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd. > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4 > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4 > > On the sPvP side of problems:* > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!. > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback. > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility. > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar. > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well. > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential. > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options. > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill. > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table. > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png > If you can reach Plat with Mesmer/Mirage but struggle with Necromancer then to some extent it is an issue of learning to play the profession. Also, Necromancer isn't the only one that gets hunted like a dog. A guildmate asked me to switch from playing Dragonhunter to Firebrand (for the first time) and attention was focused on me to an absurd degree. Part of the reason why Necromancer gets hunted down so heavily in PvP is because Scourge is a fairly strong build and can wreck peoples day if they don't respond to it correctly. So rather than having to wade through condi cleanses people just opt to kill it. It is the nature of PvP that certain professions and Elites gain far more attention than others. If you don't enjoy being hunted down like a dog then you shouldn't play Necromancer. People hunt it down because it can be effective. Despite any claims that it sucks in PvP if it truly sucked it wouldn't be a high priority target. I typically play Dragonhunter this season and Dragonhunter is not a high priority target and as such, I don't draw nearly as much attention as I did when I played Firebrand, because Firebrand is a high priority target that can ruin peoples day. Deadeye is also something that people tend to hunt down like a dog. Also, not being able to 1v1 is not a bad thing. Dueling in PvP, in this game at least, is a secondary concern to maintain control of nodes. I've won games where I didn't win a single duel but still was the top scorer on Offense and Defense. If dueling is your thing then you have to stick with a profession or Elite that is geared towards that. It is the case that not everything in PvP is meant to be a 1v1 dueler. This isn't an issue unique to Necromancer. Elementalist (both Weaver and Tempest) are not good duelers. Power Herald is a +1 and can fold real fast in a duel, especially if it becomes protracted. The PvP experience is simply not designed around the idea that everyone needs to be a dueler. Designing some professions in such a way as to not be duelers helps to make sure that the teams have a bit of diversity in capabilities that supports how matches are won. You could be the best dueler in the game and you can still lose the match if you aren't actually doing what is required to win a match. I've seen it happen plenty of times, both as an aspect of other people on my team and as something an opposing team did. However, being bad a dueling doesn't render Necromancer as moot as it has a solid support role in PvP. A lot of the side problems you list are only issues when you try to play PvP in a fashion the profession or Elite was not designed to do in the first place. One of the things I notice a lot is people really do have a problem accepting what something is good at doing vs the flavor of what they want to play and how they want to play. I see it with plenty of other professions. There is a lot of love for Revenant, as an example, and some of those folks who love the concept of Revenant hate how it is played because how it actually works is very different from the flavor that they adore so much. With that said, Repear, when played to its strengths does very well in PvP. It can also do very well in Raids. You just need to know how to find groups. [As for WoW](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760896334 "As for WoW"), WoW [has it's ](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623522336 "has it's ")own [balance issues](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623442327 "balance issues") and not everything is viable there. Their forums have [plenty of threads](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767608963 "plenty of threads") that complain about the [same balance issues](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759637242 "same balance issues") that [happen here](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762046841 "happen here"). > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible. > > In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable. > I'm of the opinion that balance is a myth that we tell ourselves when we feel bad about losing. Even WoW, with the Holy Trinity, still has balancing issues that people get very upset over. Since balance is an impossible thing to reach I think what really should be strived for is reducing the amount of imbalance as much as possible. Just because balance cannot be acheived doesn't mean the game needs to be severally out of alignment. In that regard I don't think ArenaNet is worse at it than other games and companies (I've seen complaints on this forum express on other games forums, for instance. Right down to the assumption that the balance team is incompetent or stupid). In regards to Necromancer, I think due to some of the design flaws that the profession has, balancing it to a level that makes most people happy is a bit harder than some of the professions (Though not all of them. I'm also of the opinion that the sheer number of weapon skills for Elementalist makes balancing that profession a nightmare). I also think the design flaws it has prevents it from being all things to every Necromancer players. So for example, I find the odds Necromancer being a good 1v1 dueler as opposed to a good +1 support are small. Though I do feel that Elite specs provide some hope. Due to the fact that you can take more chances with the mechanics on an Elite spec it may be possible to at least design an Elite spec that gets Necromancer to the place where some people want it to go without trashing Necromancer as it currently stands so that the people who currently enjoy it as is are also happy. I find Scourge to be a promising sign that experimitation with with the Shroud mechanic can yield posistive results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue) > > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents > > No, you don't get that all the time you really like to tell people what to do , say and think and if you are like that ingame you ll be on my block list and when i say something i mean it unlike you when you say i play necro in end game mode and refuse to show evidence > Now, the ACTUAL DPS a person can execute with a profession and a specific build .. that IS dependent on knowing how to play. But make sure you understand the difference between what the theoretical and actual DPS outputs are based on. and this make me laugh so hard because the "theoretical" DPS of the necro is less than the lowest "actual" DPS of any other profession and do you know what even funnier is that their is no good reason for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd. > > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4 > > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. > > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4 > > > > On the sPvP side of problems:* > > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!. > > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback. > > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it > > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility. > > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar. > > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well. > > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential. > > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options. > > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill. > > > > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table. > > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png > > > > If you can reach Plat with Mesmer/Mirage but struggle with Necromancer then to some extent it is an issue of learning to play the profession. Also, Necromancer isn't the only one that gets hunted like a dog. A guildmate asked me to switch from playing Dragonhunter to Firebrand (for the first time) and attention was focused on me to an absurd degree. Part of the reason why Necromancer gets hunted down so heavily in PvP is because Scourge is a fairly strong build and can wreck peoples day if they don't respond to it correctly. So rather than having to wade through condi cleanses people just opt to kill it. It is the nature of PvP that certain professions and Elites gain far more attention than others. If you don't enjoy being hunted down like a dog then you shouldn't play Necromancer. People hunt it down because it can be effective. Despite any claims that it sucks in PvP if it truly sucked it wouldn't be a high priority target. I typically play Dragonhunter this season and Dragonhunter is not a high priority target and as such, I don't draw nearly as much attention as I did when I played Firebrand, because Firebrand is a high priority target that can ruin peoples day. Deadeye is also something that people tend to hunt down like a dog. > > Also, not being able to 1v1 is not a bad thing. Dueling in PvP, in this game at least, is a secondary concern to maintain control of nodes. I've won games where I didn't win a single duel but still was the top scorer on Offense and Defense. If dueling is your thing then you have to stick with a profession or Elite that is geared towards that. It is the case that not everything in PvP is meant to be a 1v1 dueler. This isn't an issue unique to Necromancer. Elementalist (both Weaver and Tempest) are not good duelers. Power Herald is a +1 and can fold real fast in a duel, especially if it becomes protracted. The PvP experience is simply not designed around the idea that everyone needs to be a dueler. Designing some professions in such a way as to not be duelers helps to make sure that the teams have a bit of diversity in capabilities that supports how matches are won. You could be the best dueler in the game and you can still lose the match if you aren't actually doing what is required to win a match. I've seen it happen plenty of times, both as an aspect of other people on my team and as something an opposing team did. However, being bad a dueling doesn't render Necromancer as moot as it has a solid support role in PvP. > > A lot of the side problems you list are only issues when you try to play PvP in a fashion the profession or Elite was not designed to do in the first place. One of the things I notice a lot is people really do have a problem accepting what something is good at doing vs the flavor of what they want to play and how they want to play. I see it with plenty of other professions. There is a lot of love for Revenant, as an example, and some of those folks who love the concept of Revenant hate how it is played because how it actually works is very different from the flavor that they adore so much. > > With that said, Repear, when played to its strengths does very well in PvP. It can also do very well in Raids. You just need to know how to find groups. [As for WoW](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760896334 "As for WoW"), WoW [has it's ](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623522336 "has it's ")own [balance issues](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623442327 "balance issues") and not everything is viable there. Their forums have [plenty of threads](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767608963 "plenty of threads") that complain about the [same balance issues](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759637242 "same balance issues") that [happen here](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762046841 "happen here"). > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible. > > > > In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable. > > > > I'm of the opinion that balance is a myth that we tell ourselves when we feel bad about losing. Even WoW, with the Holy Trinity, still has balancing issues that people get very upset over. Since balance is an impossible thing to reach I think what really should be strived for is reducing the amount of imbalance as much as possible. Just because balance cannot be acheived doesn't mean the game needs to be severally out of alignment. In that regard I don't think ArenaNet is worse at it than other games and companies (I've seen complaints on this forum express on other games forums, for instance. Right down to the assumption that the balance team is incompetent or stupid). > > In regards to Necromancer, I think due to some of the design flaws that the profession has, balancing it to a level that makes most people happy is a bit harder than some of the professions (Though not all of them. I'm also of the opinion that the sheer number of weapon skills for Elementalist makes balancing that profession a nightmare). I also think the design flaws it has prevents it from being all things to every Necromancer players. So for example, I find the odds Necromancer being a good 1v1 dueler as opposed to a good +1 support are small. Though I do feel that Elite specs provide some hope. Due to the fact that you can take more chances with the mechanics on an Elite spec it may be possible to at least design an Elite spec that gets Necromancer to the place where some people want it to go without trashing Necromancer as it currently stands so that the people who currently enjoy it as is are also happy. I find Scourge to be a promising sign that experimitation with with the Shroud mechanic can yield posistive results. > > "balance is a myth" then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game and what are the reason for not allowing the necro as a profession to have a good DPS in PvE and we have split??? some balance change from PvP and WvW affected scourge in PvE (and we have something called split) here some examples -0.5 delay on all scourge F skills (this make it harder to use barrier to mitigate some immediate damage thus restricting scourge ability to support) -[Dhuumfire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire "Dhuumfire") the 1 second icd (such burst needed in instant content like CM 99 and 100 fractal and some raid) -[Nefarious Favor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nefarious_Favor "Nefarious Favor") split this skill to its original design (this make scourge more support) what are the reason for that to have them in PvE??? 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Axl.8924 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd. > > > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4 > > > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. > > > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4 > > > > > > On the sPvP side of problems:* > > > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!. > > > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback. > > > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it > > > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility. > > > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar. > > > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well. > > > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential. > > > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options. > > > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill. > > > > > > > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table. > > > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png > > > > > > > If you can reach Plat with Mesmer/Mirage but struggle with Necromancer then to some extent it is an issue of learning to play the profession. Also, Necromancer isn't the only one that gets hunted like a dog. A guildmate asked me to switch from playing Dragonhunter to Firebrand (for the first time) and attention was focused on me to an absurd degree. Part of the reason why Necromancer gets hunted down so heavily in PvP is because Scourge is a fairly strong build and can wreck peoples day if they don't respond to it correctly. So rather than having to wade through condi cleanses people just opt to kill it. It is the nature of PvP that certain professions and Elites gain far more attention than others. If you don't enjoy being hunted down like a dog then you shouldn't play Necromancer. People hunt it down because it can be effective. Despite any claims that it sucks in PvP if it truly sucked it wouldn't be a high priority target. I typically play Dragonhunter this season and Dragonhunter is not a high priority target and as such, I don't draw nearly as much attention as I did when I played Firebrand, because Firebrand is a high priority target that can ruin peoples day. Deadeye is also something that people tend to hunt down like a dog. > > > > Also, not being able to 1v1 is not a bad thing. Dueling in PvP, in this game at least, is a secondary concern to maintain control of nodes. I've won games where I didn't win a single duel but still was the top scorer on Offense and Defense. If dueling is your thing then you have to stick with a profession or Elite that is geared towards that. It is the case that not everything in PvP is meant to be a 1v1 dueler. This isn't an issue unique to Necromancer. Elementalist (both Weaver and Tempest) are not good duelers. Power Herald is a +1 and can fold real fast in a duel, especially if it becomes protracted. The PvP experience is simply not designed around the idea that everyone needs to be a dueler. Designing some professions in such a way as to not be duelers helps to make sure that the teams have a bit of diversity in capabilities that supports how matches are won. You could be the best dueler in the game and you can still lose the match if you aren't actually doing what is required to win a match. I've seen it happen plenty of times, both as an aspect of other people on my team and as something an opposing team did. However, being bad a dueling doesn't render Necromancer as moot as it has a solid support role in PvP. > > > > A lot of the side problems you list are only issues when you try to play PvP in a fashion the profession or Elite was not designed to do in the first place. One of the things I notice a lot is people really do have a problem accepting what something is good at doing vs the flavor of what they want to play and how they want to play. I see it with plenty of other professions. There is a lot of love for Revenant, as an example, and some of those folks who love the concept of Revenant hate how it is played because how it actually works is very different from the flavor that they adore so much. > > > > With that said, Repear, when played to its strengths does very well in PvP. It can also do very well in Raids. You just need to know how to find groups. [As for WoW](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760896334 "As for WoW"), WoW [has it's ](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623522336 "has it's ")own [balance issues](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623442327 "balance issues") and not everything is viable there. Their forums have [plenty of threads](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767608963 "plenty of threads") that complain about the [same balance issues](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759637242 "same balance issues") that [happen here](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762046841 "happen here"). > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible. > > > > > > In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable. > > > > > > > I'm of the opinion that balance is a myth that we tell ourselves when we feel bad about losing. Even WoW, with the Holy Trinity, still has balancing issues that people get very upset over. Since balance is an impossible thing to reach I think what really should be strived for is reducing the amount of imbalance as much as possible. Just because balance cannot be acheived doesn't mean the game needs to be severally out of alignment. In that regard I don't think ArenaNet is worse at it than other games and companies (I've seen complaints on this forum express on other games forums, for instance. Right down to the assumption that the balance team is incompetent or stupid). > > > > In regards to Necromancer, I think due to some of the design flaws that the profession has, balancing it to a level that makes most people happy is a bit harder than some of the professions (Though not all of them. I'm also of the opinion that the sheer number of weapon skills for Elementalist makes balancing that profession a nightmare). I also think the design flaws it has prevents it from being all things to every Necromancer players. So for example, I find the odds Necromancer being a good 1v1 dueler as opposed to a good +1 support are small. Though I do feel that Elite specs provide some hope. Due to the fact that you can take more chances with the mechanics on an Elite spec it may be possible to at least design an Elite spec that gets Necromancer to the place where some people want it to go without trashing Necromancer as it currently stands so that the people who currently enjoy it as is are also happy. I find Scourge to be a promising sign that experimitation with with the Shroud mechanic can yield posistive results. > > > > > > "balance is a myth" > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game > and what are the reason for not allowing the necro as a profession to have a good DPS in PvE and we have split??? > some balance change from PvP and WvW affected scourge in PvE (and we have something called split) here some examples > -0.5 delay on all scourge F skills (this make it harder to use barrier to mitigate some immediate damage thus restricting scourge ability to support) > -[Dhuumfire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire "Dhuumfire") the 1 second icd (such burst needed in instant content like CM 99 and 100 fractal and some raid) > -[Nefarious Favor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nefarious_Favor "Nefarious Favor") split this skill to its original design (this make scourge more support) > what are the reason for that to have them in PvE??? Because of the perceived unfairness of having shroud that absorbs more health. Like I said:If we get more power, people will cry because necros would have a advantage against other players in roaming, and perceive that to be overpowered. After all, we got more power now, and combine more power with survivability, and you have a recipe for disaster. Plus reaper does have aoes. Could you imagine a reaper going into shroud having it last 15 and up seconds and having it do the damage it does now? yeah you would have a lot of non necros crying, especially all the elementalists who are having trouble winning right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > how is that any different from what you're doing here though? The point is that unless concerns are voiced, everything will be seen as okay, and nothing will be done. > > It's very simple, something I've said numerous time but for some reason people ignore. I don't disagree that Necromancer has some severe problems that need addressing. I have said as much on several occasion (and multiple times in this thread). I have discussed at length with various Necromancer players on what could be done and what I feel the core problem and issue is. I have discussed what mechanical changes I feel would yield better results. I don't disregard the concerns of Necromancer players nor do I advance the idea that everything is fine. Where I differ, with many of them, is on what can be done to solve the problem. When people complain about not being able to get on teams to do endgame content I offer up suggestions for how to resolve that problem that doesn't require you to rely on ANet to offer a buff or fix. I can play my Reaper in Raids if I want to. You could too if you put in the work to do so. > > Also, there's a world of difference between voicing your concerns and simply complaining and rejecting anything that contradicts a myopic focus on details that don't matter nearly as much as people indicate. People should voice their concerns. Complaining, though, gets nothing done. It becomes so much white noise that it is ignorable. Threads that are constructive in nature, that are discussing actual fixes and solutions, are the kind of things a company pays attention to. This is the kind of thread a company ignores. A discussion on the weakness of the Shroud mechanic and how it holds Necromancer back in many ways can lead to ideas that could be implemented in future material. Complaining that you can't get into Raids and people kick you and you need more and more and more buffs leads nowhere. In part because Arena Net knows that the issue isn't completely created by lower DPS. So you agree that necro needs some work, bu don't like the way I post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > how is that any different from what you're doing here though? The point is that unless concerns are voiced, everything will be seen as okay, and nothing will be done. > > > > It's very simple, something I've said numerous time but for some reason people ignore. I don't disagree that Necromancer has some severe problems that need addressing. I have said as much on several occasion (and multiple times in this thread). I have discussed at length with various Necromancer players on what could be done and what I feel the core problem and issue is. I have discussed what mechanical changes I feel would yield better results. I don't disregard the concerns of Necromancer players nor do I advance the idea that everything is fine. Where I differ, with many of them, is on what can be done to solve the problem. When people complain about not being able to get on teams to do endgame content I offer up suggestions for how to resolve that problem that doesn't require you to rely on ANet to offer a buff or fix. I can play my Reaper in Raids if I want to. You could too if you put in the work to do so. > > > > Also, there's a world of difference between voicing your concerns and simply complaining and rejecting anything that contradicts a myopic focus on details that don't matter nearly as much as people indicate. People should voice their concerns. Complaining, though, gets nothing done. It becomes so much white noise that it is ignorable. Threads that are constructive in nature, that are discussing actual fixes and solutions, are the kind of things a company pays attention to. This is the kind of thread a company ignores. A discussion on the weakness of the Shroud mechanic and how it holds Necromancer back in many ways can lead to ideas that could be implemented in future material. Complaining that you can't get into Raids and people kick you and you need more and more and more buffs leads nowhere. In part because Arena Net knows that the issue isn't completely created by lower DPS. > > So you agree that necro needs some work, bu don't like the way I post? At no point have I ever advanced an argument that Necromancer doesn't need some work. However, complaining is pointless and gets no one anywhere. More so when ArenaNet says they look for constructive feedback and critiques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > > > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd. > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4 > > > > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class. > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4 > > > > > > > > On the sPvP side of problems:* > > > > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!. > > > > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback. > > > > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it > > > > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility. > > > > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar. > > > > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well. > > > > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential. > > > > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options. > > > > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table. > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png > > > > > > > > > > If you can reach Plat with Mesmer/Mirage but struggle with Necromancer then to some extent it is an issue of learning to play the profession. Also, Necromancer isn't the only one that gets hunted like a dog. A guildmate asked me to switch from playing Dragonhunter to Firebrand (for the first time) and attention was focused on me to an absurd degree. Part of the reason why Necromancer gets hunted down so heavily in PvP is because Scourge is a fairly strong build and can wreck peoples day if they don't respond to it correctly. So rather than having to wade through condi cleanses people just opt to kill it. It is the nature of PvP that certain professions and Elites gain far more attention than others. If you don't enjoy being hunted down like a dog then you shouldn't play Necromancer. People hunt it down because it can be effective. Despite any claims that it sucks in PvP if it truly sucked it wouldn't be a high priority target. I typically play Dragonhunter this season and Dragonhunter is not a high priority target and as such, I don't draw nearly as much attention as I did when I played Firebrand, because Firebrand is a high priority target that can ruin peoples day. Deadeye is also something that people tend to hunt down like a dog. > > > > > > Also, not being able to 1v1 is not a bad thing. Dueling in PvP, in this game at least, is a secondary concern to maintain control of nodes. I've won games where I didn't win a single duel but still was the top scorer on Offense and Defense. If dueling is your thing then you have to stick with a profession or Elite that is geared towards that. It is the case that not everything in PvP is meant to be a 1v1 dueler. This isn't an issue unique to Necromancer. Elementalist (both Weaver and Tempest) are not good duelers. Power Herald is a +1 and can fold real fast in a duel, especially if it becomes protracted. The PvP experience is simply not designed around the idea that everyone needs to be a dueler. Designing some professions in such a way as to not be duelers helps to make sure that the teams have a bit of diversity in capabilities that supports how matches are won. You could be the best dueler in the game and you can still lose the match if you aren't actually doing what is required to win a match. I've seen it happen plenty of times, both as an aspect of other people on my team and as something an opposing team did. However, being bad a dueling doesn't render Necromancer as moot as it has a solid support role in PvP. > > > > > > A lot of the side problems you list are only issues when you try to play PvP in a fashion the profession or Elite was not designed to do in the first place. One of the things I notice a lot is people really do have a problem accepting what something is good at doing vs the flavor of what they want to play and how they want to play. I see it with plenty of other professions. There is a lot of love for Revenant, as an example, and some of those folks who love the concept of Revenant hate how it is played because how it actually works is very different from the flavor that they adore so much. > > > > > > With that said, Repear, when played to its strengths does very well in PvP. It can also do very well in Raids. You just need to know how to find groups. [As for WoW](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760896334 "As for WoW"), WoW [has it's ](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623522336 "has it's ")own [balance issues](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623442327 "balance issues") and not everything is viable there. Their forums have [plenty of threads](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767608963 "plenty of threads") that complain about the [same balance issues](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759637242 "same balance issues") that [happen here](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762046841 "happen here"). > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible. > > > > > > > > In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable. > > > > > > > > > > I'm of the opinion that balance is a myth that we tell ourselves when we feel bad about losing. Even WoW, with the Holy Trinity, still has balancing issues that people get very upset over. Since balance is an impossible thing to reach I think what really should be strived for is reducing the amount of imbalance as much as possible. Just because balance cannot be acheived doesn't mean the game needs to be severally out of alignment. In that regard I don't think ArenaNet is worse at it than other games and companies (I've seen complaints on this forum express on other games forums, for instance. Right down to the assumption that the balance team is incompetent or stupid). > > > > > > In regards to Necromancer, I think due to some of the design flaws that the profession has, balancing it to a level that makes most people happy is a bit harder than some of the professions (Though not all of them. I'm also of the opinion that the sheer number of weapon skills for Elementalist makes balancing that profession a nightmare). I also think the design flaws it has prevents it from being all things to every Necromancer players. So for example, I find the odds Necromancer being a good 1v1 dueler as opposed to a good +1 support are small. Though I do feel that Elite specs provide some hope. Due to the fact that you can take more chances with the mechanics on an Elite spec it may be possible to at least design an Elite spec that gets Necromancer to the place where some people want it to go without trashing Necromancer as it currently stands so that the people who currently enjoy it as is are also happy. I find Scourge to be a promising sign that experimitation with with the Shroud mechanic can yield posistive results. > > > > > > > > > > "balance is a myth" > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game > > and what are the reason for not allowing the necro as a profession to have a good DPS in PvE and we have split??? > > some balance change from PvP and WvW affected scourge in PvE (and we have something called split) here some examples > > -0.5 delay on all scourge F skills (this make it harder to use barrier to mitigate some immediate damage thus restricting scourge ability to support) > > -[Dhuumfire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire "Dhuumfire") the 1 second icd (such burst needed in instant content like CM 99 and 100 fractal and some raid) > > -[Nefarious Favor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nefarious_Favor "Nefarious Favor") split this skill to its original design (this make scourge more support) > > what are the reason for that to have them in PvE??? > > Because of the perceived unfairness of having shroud that absorbs more health. Like I said:If we get more power, people will cry because necros would have a advantage against other players in roaming, and perceive that to be overpowered. After all, we got more power now, and combine more power with survivability, and you have a recipe for disaster. Plus reaper does have aoes. Could you imagine a reaper going into shroud having it last 15 and up seconds and having it do the damage it does now? yeah you would have a lot of non necros crying, especially all the elementalists who are having trouble winning right now. what make you think that i want a buff necro in PvP and WvW necro is good here but i want the buff in PvE i mean we have split after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue) > > > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents > > > > No, you don't get that all the time > you really like to tell people what to do , say and think and if you are like that ingame you ll be on my block list and when i say something i mean it unlike you when you say i play necro in end game mode and refuse to show evidence I'm not telling anyone what to do or say or think ... but I got no problem telling you why what you do, say or think doesn't work with how the game is **currently** designed. FACT: You **could** get a team as a necro, you just don't want it bad enough. You want it handed to you like you are entitled to it. All this back and forth is not just to argue with you for fun ... it's so we can demonstrate, as a community, that things we desire and ask for are sensible with the good of the game in mind. That's really important if you understand how devs interact with the community (or why they don't). You think it's OK for you to say something and it's taken at face value and meaningful .... but when anyone else says something you don't agree with, you make specific and semi-ridiculous requests for things with the premise that if they don't provide them, just are just liars. That's a very disingenuous way to have a discussion with people. > > Now, the ACTUAL DPS a person can execute with a profession and a specific build .. that IS dependent on knowing how to play. But make sure you understand the difference between what the theoretical and actual DPS outputs are based on. > and this make me laugh so hard because the "theoretical" DPS of the necro is less than the lowest "actual" DPS of any other profession and do you know what even funnier is that their is no good reason for that Saying that you have been told that a profession doesn't have DPS because people don't know how to play is a half truth; The DPS ceiling of a class has NOTHING to do with how someone plays; that's a purely academic limit based on an optimal rotation of skills. The fact is that you misrepresent what people are telling you and I believe you are doing it on purpose to attempt to make them look stupid for no reason other than to protect your poor-thought out ideas. I don't get why you think the best way to approach this discussion is to be as dishonest as possible with people that don't agree with you. As you have already experienced, that doesn't work well for you. > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > "balance is a myth" > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game Nice way to take his statement out of context. I didn't play GW1 but as I understand and based on checking it's Wiki page, it doesn't have multi-person raids likes GW2 ... so how is that comparison even make any sense? We ARE talking about multi-person raiding content here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamurabi.7890 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue) > > > > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents > > > > > > No, you don't get that all the time > > you really like to tell people what to do , say and think and if you are like that ingame you ll be on my block list and when i say something i mean it unlike you when you say i play necro in end game mode and refuse to show evidence > > I'm not telling anyone what to do or say or think ... but I got no problem telling you why what you do, say or think doesn't work with how the game is **currently** designed. FACT: You **could** get a team as a necro, you just don't want it bad enough. You want it handed to you like you are entitled to it. > > All this back and forth is not just to argue with you for fun ... it's so we can demonstrate, as a community, that things we desire and ask for are sensible with the good of the game in mind. That's really important if you understand how devs interact with the community (or why they don't). > > You think it's OK for you to say something and it's taken at face value and meaningful .... but when anyone else says something you don't agree with, you make specific and semi-ridiculous requests for things with the premise that if they don't provide them, just are just liars. That's a very disingenuous way to have a discussion with people. > > > > Now, the ACTUAL DPS a person can execute with a profession and a specific build .. that IS dependent on knowing how to play. But make sure you understand the difference between what the theoretical and actual DPS outputs are based on. > > and this make me laugh so hard because the "theoretical" DPS of the necro is less than the lowest "actual" DPS of any other profession and do you know what even funnier is that their is no good reason for that > > Saying that you have been told that a profession doesn't have DPS because people don't know how to play is a half truth; The DPS ceiling of a class has NOTHING to do with how someone plays; that's a purely academic limit based on an optimal rotation of skills. The fact is that you misrepresent what people are telling you and I believe you are doing it on purpose to attempt to make them look stupid for no reason other than to protect your poor-thought out ideas. I don't get why you think the best way to approach this discussion is to be as dishonest as possible with people that don't agree with you. As you have already experienced, that doesn't work well for you. > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > "balance is a myth" > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game > > Nice way to take his statement out of context. I didn't play GW1 but as I understand and based on checking it's Wiki page, it doesn't have multi-person raids likes GW2 ... so how is that comparison even make any sense? We ARE talking about multi-person raiding content here. Search for GW1 speed clears and you'll see that there's plenty of content for teams comprised of specialized builds. This specialization has carried over into GW2 but it's nowhere nearly as bad. There is similarity between GW1 and GW2 in that groups would wait for a specific build/role and reject those that tried to join that didn't fill that need. There was more "elitism" in GW1 groups because of this specialization and for Necro players in GW2 this feels all too familiar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Swamurabi.7890" said: > Search for GW1 speed clears and you'll see that there's plenty of content for teams comprised of specialized builds. This specialization has carried over into GW2 but it's nowhere nearly as bad. There is similarity between GW1 and GW2 in that groups would wait for a specific build/role and reject those that tried to join that didn't fill that need. There was more "elitism" in GW1 groups because of this specialization and for Necro players in GW2 this feels all too familiar. Thanks for the information. At least we know that when DragonFury is pointing towards GW1 as a shining example of balance, just because he heard people say GW1 was 'really balanced', we don't have to simply take his word for it. Maybe I should have asked for a video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue) > > > > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents > > > > > > No, you don't get that all the time > > you really like to tell people what to do , say and think and if you are like that ingame you ll be on my block list and when i say something i mean it unlike you when you say i play necro in end game mode and refuse to show evidence > > I'm not telling anyone what to do or say or think ... but I got no problem telling you why what you do, say or think doesn't work with how the game is **currently** designed. FACT: You **could** get a team as a necro, you just don't want it bad enough. You want it handed to you like you are entitled to it. > > All this back and forth is not just to argue with you for fun ... it's so we can demonstrate, as a community, that things we desire and ask for are sensible with the good of the game in mind. That's really important if you understand how devs interact with the community (or why they don't). > > You think it's OK for you to say something and it's taken at face value and meaningful .... but when anyone else says something you don't agree with, you make specific and semi-ridiculous requests for things with the premise that if they don't provide them, just are just liars. That's a very disingenuous way to have a discussion with people. > > > > Now, the ACTUAL DPS a person can execute with a profession and a specific build .. that IS dependent on knowing how to play. But make sure you understand the difference between what the theoretical and actual DPS outputs are based on. > > and this make me laugh so hard because the "theoretical" DPS of the necro is less than the lowest "actual" DPS of any other profession and do you know what even funnier is that their is no good reason for that > > Saying that you have been told that a profession doesn't have DPS because people don't know how to play is a half truth; The DPS ceiling of a class has NOTHING to do with how someone plays; that's a purely academic limit based on an optimal rotation of skills. The fact is that you misrepresent what people are telling you and I believe you are doing it on purpose to attempt to make them look stupid for no reason other than to protect your poor-thought out ideas. I don't get why you think the best way to approach this discussion is to be as dishonest as possible with people that don't agree with you. As you have already experienced, that doesn't work well for you. > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > "balance is a myth" > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game > > Nice way to take his statement out of context. I didn't play GW1 but as I understand and based on checking it's Wiki page, it doesn't have multi-person raids likes GW2 ... so how is that comparison even make any sense? We ARE talking about multi-person raiding content here. The theoretical dps of necro is 28k dps and you 'll never achieve that in an actual raid you can get 24k to 26k but when I play on my holo with all exotic gear I get 28k to 30k in a raid and the necro have all ascended gear btw Stop telling people's it's about how to play because I know you don't know how to play necro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Swamurabi.7890" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue) > > > > > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents > > > > > > > > No, you don't get that all the time > > > you really like to tell people what to do , say and think and if you are like that ingame you ll be on my block list and when i say something i mean it unlike you when you say i play necro in end game mode and refuse to show evidence > > Saying that you have been told that a profession doesn't have DPS because people don't know how to play is a half truth; The DPS ceiling of a class has NOTHING to do with how someone plays; that's a purely academic limit based on an optimal rotation of skills. The fact is that you misrepresent what people are telling you and I believe you are doing it on purpose to attempt to make them look stupid for no reason other than to protect your poor-thought out ideas. I don't get why you think the best way to approach this discussion is to be as dishonest as possible with people that don't agree with you. As you have already experienced, that doesn't work well for you. no one told me that a profession have the lowest DPS in the game because i main that profession and i know for sure it have a low DPS and do you know who agree with me on that Anet partner if you take time to watch the video you hear teapot saying at 1:22:30 "at the end of the day a necro cant compete with raw dps output of these power classes at vale guardian all its good at is during the split phases " and what undeniable evidence that necro only good for epi bouncing and having 6 of them and after all it was nerfed and only effective in limited times and anet consider epi bounce as an exploit they tried to destroy it last balance patch but ended up just nerfing epi by 50% (bounce by 75%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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