Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. Nah, that spot is for mesmer only! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > The point of the topic is the mentality of everyone not allowing necros in groups for PVE > > It happens if you're a necro. > > If you're a guardian main or an engineer, you're not going to understand why and come up with whatever means you can get so you don't have a necro outdps you, I get that. > > But, the point of the topic is that people don't want a Necro for their serious PvE content, serious spvp (except one build), or serious raiding due to low dps and nothing brought to the table. (among other problems) > > We have lower dps then other classes with conditions, it's a fact, and "educating" other necros with "advice" doesn't solve this mentality because we're not always the ones leading the groups. > > everyone? really? thats complete BS. > i also have very rarly the issue when joining a group as war dps (very very rarly) but through my amazing social interaction skills, i always got at least one try to "proof my worth" to the group. > so you mean one meta build for pvp issn´t enough? you might want to disscuss this in other class forums with 0 builds in the current meta. > necro is meta on various bosses, sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > on freaking paper, yes. i have been in pug runs with necros on top dps spot. get a static, problem solved. Personally you sound a little angry. I want to add my 2 cents: I think that you can get groups, its just that there are those that are elitists about the dps thing, and go for whoever do the highest dps. Sure there are certain niches that necro fit under, like boon corrupt and rez bot, but rez bots are of limited use if you got a team who is already super good, and boon corrupt is not useful in raids. I think what dragonfury is talking about, is the fact that necromancers don't have much of a choice of role if its dps or support, because even our support role isn't as god as lets say firebrand, or mesmers with the chronomancer, who provide a whole lot of different buffs. Boon corrupt and condi corrupt are a type of support, but it cant shine if there is nothing to corrupt. Furthermore yes you are correct as well that if you get a guild who allows you to raid with them, you can just ignore the random pugs of raids and get in, you just need a not elitist guild with people who are understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > i constantly pug/static with necro/scourges, or what action do you mean? > > > > nice proof you send me of you playing as halo > >  > > > > i proofed that necros & scourges are exeptet in pug/static groups, nothing else. i myself just play necro in fractals, i do not log my runs though. i have a scourge but its barly used, not because its unplayable in raids, because its unfun for me to play. sorry that my bad that make you a necro expert becasue you pug with necro not as a necro ofc we have the best community becasue i pug with my necro alot in fractal and raid but when you get a 2 to 3 kick in a week before you enter the wing that will change your mind and getting OMG a necro in wing x learn to play a real dps profession/ elite is a nice touch to get not even from the commander of the squad clearly you have a very strong opinion about necro for someone not even playing the profession other than AFK farming OFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > i constantly pug/static with necro/scourges, or what action do you mean? > > > > > > nice proof you send me of you playing as halo > > >  > > > > > > > i proofed that necros & scourges are exeptet in pug/static groups, nothing else. i myself just play necro in fractals, i do not log my runs though. i have a scourge but its barly used, not because its unplayable in raids, because its unfun for me to play. > > sorry that my bad that make you a necro expert becasue you pug with necro not as a necro > ofc we have the best community becasue i pug with my necro alot in fractal and raid but when you get a 2 to 3 kick in a week before you enter the wing that will change your mind > and getting OMG a necro in wing x learn to play a real dps profession/ elite is a nice touch to get not even from the commander of the squad > clearly you have a very strong opinion about necro for someone not even playing the profession other than AFK farming OFC ok, dealing with your "passion" has become a wast of time. feel free to let your anger flow. i will happily continue raiding, with and without necros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > There is more to this game than straight DPS, the sooner you understand that the better. > > not ture in this game you can skip a lot of mechanics if you have high enough dps > no updraft Gorseval , less canon in sabetha , less mushroom in Slothasor , less green in dhuum etc > that is why its a dps driven meta where you cant have the lowest dps class in end game > > You.are.wrong. If you offer something else you don't need DPS. Stop fixating on DPS, it's holding you back from finding the content you want. So long as you fixate on DPS you **WILL NEVER** get what you want out of the game. **Never.** Necro's can group if you know what you're doing. You, clearly, do not know what you are doing nor do you care to learn what you need to do in order play Necromancer in end game PvE content. Since you clearly do not want to listen to any advice and repeat the same tired old refrain over and over and over again (like talking to a wall) I won't bother responding to whatever you decide to respond with. Won't even bother to read it. You consistently ignore the help you are given. You call other players liars. This is not a productive conversation in the least. Will not bother to read your response to me because it is not worth my time. You simply want to complain. > @"Farkon.2170" said: > The point of the topic is the mentality of everyone not allowing necros in groups for PVE > It happens if you're a necro. > If you're a guardian main or an engineer, you're not going to understand why and come up with whatever means you can get so you don't have a necro outdps you, I get that. > But, the point of the topic is that people don't want a Necro for their serious PvE content, serious spvp (except one build), or serious raiding due to low dps and nothing brought to the table. (among other problems) > We have lower dps then other classes with conditions, it's a fact, and "educating" other necros with "advice" doesn't solve this mentality because we're not always the ones leading the groups. PvP it doesn't matter. They can't kick you and there are folks who do fine in PvP. Honestly, I don't see why folks complain about PvP when they can play it and do well. Also, you may not lead the groups all the time but you can always start your own group. Or get some friends together. Or join a guild. Basically you can find the people who are willing to let you play Necromancer. The PUG community isn't going to change its mindset and ANet isn't likely to balance the game based on artifically limitations set by the players. So your choice is to either complain, learn to group, or learn to how to play in PvP. The options are there. It's up to you to take them. It's not like Necromancer is the only one in this boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... The real reason to not buff necros is because of SPVP and WvW. It has to do with boon corrupt, and the way shroud is. Necromancers will always be perceived as overpowered so long as people see the life bar and the shroud and boon corrupt in spvp, because it puts them at a d disadvantage if you use big AOE spams. There are necros on the forum who argued to lower for instance the aoe range of scourge, but of course it got ignored and got nerfed in a different way, thus gutting the scourges. I personally like that reapers have more power in their hits in exchange for shroud duration. Would I love shroud duration back? Sure, but that's not going to happen unless ANET somehow finds a way to balance it so that necros have to do damage outside shroud and lose some of its durability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > i constantly pug/static with necro/scourges, or what action do you mean? > > > > > > > > nice proof you send me of you playing as halo > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > i proofed that necros & scourges are exeptet in pug/static groups, nothing else. i myself just play necro in fractals, i do not log my runs though. i have a scourge but its barly used, not because its unplayable in raids, because its unfun for me to play. > > > > sorry that my bad that make you a necro expert becasue you pug with necro not as a necro > > ofc we have the best community becasue i pug with my necro alot in fractal and raid but when you get a 2 to 3 kick in a week before you enter the wing that will change your mind > > and getting OMG a necro in wing x learn to play a real dps profession/ elite is a nice touch to get not even from the commander of the squad > > clearly you have a very strong opinion about necro for someone not even playing the profession other than AFK farming OFC > > ok, dealing with your "passion" has become a wast of time. > feel free to let your anger flow. i will happily continue raiding, with and without necros. oh you mean without necros. thank you for saying the truth and passion to play the game is a wast of time. thank you for that too and i believe you are a necro main because only necro player think they are wasting their time playing necro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > > The point of the topic is the mentality of everyone not allowing necros in groups for PVE > > > It happens if you're a necro. > > > If you're a guardian main or an engineer, you're not going to understand why and come up with whatever means you can get so you don't have a necro outdps you, I get that. > > > But, the point of the topic is that people don't want a Necro for their serious PvE content, serious spvp (except one build), or serious raiding due to low dps and nothing brought to the table. (among other problems) > > > We have lower dps then other classes with conditions, it's a fact, and "educating" other necros with "advice" doesn't solve this mentality because we're not always the ones leading the groups. > > > > everyone? really? thats complete BS. > > i also have very rarly the issue when joining a group as war dps (very very rarly) but through my amazing social interaction skills, i always got at least one try to "proof my worth" to the group. > > so you mean one meta build for pvp issn´t enough? you might want to disscuss this in other class forums with 0 builds in the current meta. > > necro is meta on various bosses, sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > on freaking paper, yes. i have been in pug runs with necros on top dps spot. get a static, problem solved. > > Personally you sound a little angry. > > I want to add my 2 cents: > > I think that you can get groups, its just that there are those that are elitists about the dps thing, and go for whoever do the highest dps. Sure there are certain niches that necro fit under, like boon corrupt and rez bot, but rez bots are of limited use if you got a team who is already super good, and boon corrupt is not useful in raids. > > I think what dragonfury is talking about, is the fact that necromancers don't have much of a choice of role if its dps or support, because even our support role isn't as god as lets say firebrand, or mesmers with the chronomancer, who provide a whole lot of different buffs. > > > Boon corrupt and condi corrupt are a type of support, but it cant shine if there is nothing to corrupt. > > Furthermore yes you are correct as well that if you get a guild who allows you to raid with them, you can just ignore the random pugs of raids and get in, you just need a not elitist guild with people who are understanding. > yeah,sorry for that, hearing the same stuff, for every class every fw month, with the same arguments get tyring. you are right, there are, but from my expierence, the "elitist" you are refearing to are nothing but tryhards,and very few. the really exp ppl in pugs do not really care. 2 chronos? check! banners? check! Druid? check! 1 healer? check. dps? don´t suck, be condi/power. check! to be honest, the rare cases of class toxicity i only expierenced in low (<300Li) groups. no idea about support necro, but there isn´t anythin that comes close to chrono/druid/bs anyway. on the healer part, scourge,firebrand,scrapper are pretty aligned, everyone is happy when that slot is filled. dps in actuall raids is as told before, fine. pretty sure if you get along with the people in your guild they will let you play what you want, as long as you don´t stand in thw way of their progres st omuch (which again, isn´t a class thing, it has more to to with personal skill) declaired speedrun/world record groups are obviously excluded from my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > There is more to this game than straight DPS, the sooner you understand that the better. > > > > not ture in this game you can skip a lot of mechanics if you have high enough dps > > no updraft Gorseval , less canon in sabetha , less mushroom in Slothasor , less green in dhuum etc > > that is why its a dps driven meta where you cant have the lowest dps class in end game > > > > > > You.are.wrong. If you offer something else you don't need DPS. Stop fixating on DPS, it's holding you back from finding the content you want. So long as you fixate on DPS you **WILL NEVER** get what you want out of the game. **Never.** hmm when i wanted to join as a necro i got kick but when i join as a holo i got the clear BTW my holo is all exotic and i am not the best holo someone like you **WILL NEVER** understand what that mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... I have never once disagreed with the statement that Necromancer is underpowered. Ask any Necromancer player on this forum and they will tell you that I actually agree with many of their commentaries on the profession. Where I differ with most of them is on what to do about it. As for the rest, I don't buy any argument that wants to pretend that ANet doesn't want a profession played. That is just complete and utter marlarkey. ANet wants all it's professions played and Necromancer is actually very popular. They've said as much. Necromancer is the 5th most played profession and even beats out Mesmer when it comes to playtime in the game. However, increasing DPS doesn't solve your problem. They don't buff DPS because DPS isn't a true issue. The address mechanical issues. Mechanically Necromancer can do the content. The problem is social in nature, people don't want Necromancer because they are being elitest and placing a very high emphasis on DPS. That creates an artifical imbalance, which ANet will not address by buffing DPS. They won't address it because Necromancers can do it. There are people in this thread who have said as much. So I 100% don't buy your scenario and won't spend anymore time on it as I find conspraicy theories about a gaming company out to get its players as dull and unintersting. > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... > > The real reason to not buff necros is because of SPVP and WvW. It has to do with boon corrupt, and the way shroud is. Necromancers will always be perceived as overpowered so long as people see the life bar and the shroud and boon corrupt in spvp, because it puts them at a d disadvantage if you use big AOE spams. > > There are necros on the forum who argued to lower for instance the aoe range of scourge, but of course it got ignored and got nerfed in a different way, thus gutting the scourges. I personally like that reapers have more power in their hits in exchange for shroud duration. Would I love shroud duration back? Sure, but that's not going to happen unless ANET somehow finds a way to balance it so that necros have to do damage outside shroud and lose some of its durability. I won't deny that PvP and WvW factor into this. You and I have discussed Necromancer on many o occasion. I think the issue with Necromancer is complex and that there isn't any single magic reason. However, for the purpose of what the OP is pushing I'm focusing on the artifical limitations placed on Necromancer by the PUG community. I think that is an important thing to consider and discuss in these types of conversations. Tunnel vision on DPS doesn't allow people to find practical solutions to pick up the slack where ANet won't get invovled, likely because, as I say, the DPS situation is artifical in nature. I'm also disputing the narrative that Farkon pushes about how Necromancer sucks in PvP. Again, something you and I have discussed at length. I think people exagerate the issue and are being over dramatic. 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DragonFury.6243 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > > > The point of the topic is the mentality of everyone not allowing necros in groups for PVE > > > > It happens if you're a necro. > > > > If you're a guardian main or an engineer, you're not going to understand why and come up with whatever means you can get so you don't have a necro outdps you, I get that. > > > > But, the point of the topic is that people don't want a Necro for their serious PvE content, serious spvp (except one build), or serious raiding due to low dps and nothing brought to the table. (among other problems) > > > > We have lower dps then other classes with conditions, it's a fact, and "educating" other necros with "advice" doesn't solve this mentality because we're not always the ones leading the groups. > > > > > > everyone? really? thats complete BS. > > > i also have very rarly the issue when joining a group as war dps (very very rarly) but through my amazing social interaction skills, i always got at least one try to "proof my worth" to the group. > > > so you mean one meta build for pvp issn´t enough? you might want to disscuss this in other class forums with 0 builds in the current meta. > > > necro is meta on various bosses, sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > > on freaking paper, yes. i have been in pug runs with necros on top dps spot. get a static, problem solved. > > > > Personally you sound a little angry. > > > > I want to add my 2 cents: > > > > I think that you can get groups, its just that there are those that are elitists about the dps thing, and go for whoever do the highest dps. Sure there are certain niches that necro fit under, like boon corrupt and rez bot, but rez bots are of limited use if you got a team who is already super good, and boon corrupt is not useful in raids. > > > > I think what dragonfury is talking about, is the fact that necromancers don't have much of a choice of role if its dps or support, because even our support role isn't as god as lets say firebrand, or mesmers with the chronomancer, who provide a whole lot of different buffs. > > > > > > Boon corrupt and condi corrupt are a type of support, but it cant shine if there is nothing to corrupt. > > > > Furthermore yes you are correct as well that if you get a guild who allows you to raid with them, you can just ignore the random pugs of raids and get in, you just need a not elitist guild with people who are understanding. > > > > yeah,sorry for that, hearing the same stuff, for every class every fw month, with the same arguments get tyring. > you are right, there are, but from my expierence, the "elitist" you are refearing to are nothing but tryhards,and very few. the really exp ppl in pugs do not really care. 2 chronos? check! banners? check! Druid? check! 1 healer? check. dps? don´t suck, be condi/power. check! you forgot no necro . check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > > There is more to this game than straight DPS, the sooner you understand that the better. > > > > > > not ture in this game you can skip a lot of mechanics if you have high enough dps > > > no updraft Gorseval , less canon in sabetha , less mushroom in Slothasor , less green in dhuum etc > > > that is why its a dps driven meta where you cant have the lowest dps class in end game > > > > > > > > > > You.are.wrong. If you offer something else you don't need DPS. Stop fixating on DPS, it's holding you back from finding the content you want. So long as you fixate on DPS you **WILL NEVER** get what you want out of the game. **Never.** > > hmm when i wanted to join as a necro i got kick but when i join as a holo i got the clear > BTW my holo is all exotic and i am not the best holo > someone like you **WILL NEVER** understand what that mean Just curious, but do you have a raid guild? and are you raiding with them? When I raided, I did so with my guild and open raid on teamspeak to learn how to raid, and they didn't auto kick me. I will admit I did get some serious trash talk when I was in the raiding lobby area, because I was asking around about strategies to get better on necro, and I was insulted and told to play another class and so on and so on, so I know the full extent of the toxicity.I couldn't even believe in fact how toxic people were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > > > > There is more to this game than straight DPS, the sooner you understand that the better. > > > > > > > > not ture in this game you can skip a lot of mechanics if you have high enough dps > > > > no updraft Gorseval , less canon in sabetha , less mushroom in Slothasor , less green in dhuum etc > > > > that is why its a dps driven meta where you cant have the lowest dps class in end game > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You.are.wrong. If you offer something else you don't need DPS. Stop fixating on DPS, it's holding you back from finding the content you want. So long as you fixate on DPS you **WILL NEVER** get what you want out of the game. **Never.** > > > > hmm when i wanted to join as a necro i got kick but when i join as a holo i got the clear > > BTW my holo is all exotic and i am not the best holo > > someone like you **WILL NEVER** understand what that mean > > Just curious, but do you have a raid guild? and are you raiding with them? When I raided, I did so with my guild and open raid on teamspeak to learn how to raid, and they didn't auto kick me. > > I will admit I did get some serious trash talk when I was in the raiding lobby area, because I was asking around about strategies to get better on necro, and I was insulted and told to play another class and so on and so on, so I know the full extent of the toxicity.I couldn't even believe in fact how toxic people were. > no i pug all the raid because i want to raid when i have time ( you know real life dps loss ) and i already know all the mechanic and the necro rotation and provide KP to prove that but you ll get same treatment which is a kick and i also familiar with L2P a real dps profession or change your profession or you are playing the wrong profession talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... > > I have never once disagreed with the statement that Necromancer is underpowered. Ask any Necromancer player on this forum and they will tell you that I actually agree with many of their commentaries on the profession. Where I differ with most of them is on what to do about it. > > As for the rest, I don't buy any argument that wants to pretend that ANet doesn't want a profession played. That is just complete and utter marlarkey. ANet wants all it's professions played and Necromancer is actually very popular. They've said as much. Necromancer is the 5th most played profession and even beats out Mesmer when it comes to playtime in the game. > > However, increasing DPS doesn't solve your problem. They don't buff DPS because DPS isn't a true issue. The address mechanical issues. Mechanically Necromancer can do the content. The problem is social in nature, people don't want Necromancer because they are being elitest and placing a very high emphasis on DPS. That creates an artifical imbalance, which ANet will not address by buffing DPS. They won't address it because Necromancers can do it. There are people in this thread who have said as much. > > So I 100% don't buy your scenario and won't spend anymore time on it as I find conspraicy theories about a gaming company out to get its players as dull and unintersting. > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > > > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > > > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > > > > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > > > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > > > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > > > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... > > > > The real reason to not buff necros is because of SPVP and WvW. It has to do with boon corrupt, and the way shroud is. Necromancers will always be perceived as overpowered so long as people see the life bar and the shroud and boon corrupt in spvp, because it puts them at a d disadvantage if you use big AOE spams. > > > > There are necros on the forum who argued to lower for instance the aoe range of scourge, but of course it got ignored and got nerfed in a different way, thus gutting the scourges. I personally like that reapers have more power in their hits in exchange for shroud duration. Would I love shroud duration back? Sure, but that's not going to happen unless ANET somehow finds a way to balance it so that necros have to do damage outside shroud and lose some of its durability. > > I won't deny that PvP and WvW factor into this. You and I have discussed Necromancer on many o occasion. I think the issue with Necromancer is complex and that there isn't any single magic reason. However, for the purpose of what the OP is pushing I'm focusing on the artifical limitations placed on Necromancer by the PUG community. I think that is an important thing to consider and discuss in these types of conversations. Tunnel vision on DPS doesn't allow people to find practical solutions to pick up the slack where ANet won't get invovled, likely because, as I say, the DPS situation is artifical in nature. > > I'm also disputing the narrative that Farkon pushes about how Necromancer sucks in PvP. Again, something you and I have discussed at length. I think people exagerate the issue and are being over dramatic. Sure there are many issues, such as boon corrupt has no place in pve, except fractals, along with condi corrupt. The question is: Is Anet going to step in and start fixing necro mechanically and do a overhaul? Because some of the stuff has to do with past changes that locked necros into a situation where mechanically speaking, they are made around boon corrupt and shroud. Eles for instance complain about their hp bar, and others would perceive necros to have a unfair advantage if they had high dps, while also being a damage sponge.I have seen it in the spvp area myself, so I know this to be true. What can be done though to fix necros? because short of raising all the hp, necros might see this as unfair too to have higher hp plus more mobility and dodges. Mechanically speaking too, how do you make condis useful without making them about instant burst? in games like world of Warcraft and everquest, condis do high damage over time, but you also got massive amounts of survivability on necromancers with hp drain and things like snares to keep enemies away while you run around and watch them slowly die. To me, it would be impossible to have a efficient slow damage over time class without at least some survivability added, but you have the major issue that if it deals too much damage like it did in gw2, it becomes a insta burst tech that's way overpowered and impossible to clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > > > The point of the topic is the mentality of everyone not allowing necros in groups for PVE > > > > It happens if you're a necro. > > > > If you're a guardian main or an engineer, you're not going to understand why and come up with whatever means you can get so you don't have a necro outdps you, I get that. > > > > But, the point of the topic is that people don't want a Necro for their serious PvE content, serious spvp (except one build), or serious raiding due to low dps and nothing brought to the table. (among other problems) > > > > We have lower dps then other classes with conditions, it's a fact, and "educating" other necros with "advice" doesn't solve this mentality because we're not always the ones leading the groups. > > > > > > everyone? really? thats complete BS. > > > i also have very rarly the issue when joining a group as war dps (very very rarly) but through my amazing social interaction skills, i always got at least one try to "proof my worth" to the group. > > > so you mean one meta build for pvp issn´t enough? you might want to disscuss this in other class forums with 0 builds in the current meta. > > > necro is meta on various bosses, sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > > on freaking paper, yes. i have been in pug runs with necros on top dps spot. get a static, problem solved. > > not true > > you are dreaming > > so i am a necro main and i had 24 qadim KP and i know the mechanic of W6 and i join a sqaud but they kick me before i even enter the wing and i wanted to prove my worth to the sqaud but i cant i get insta kick > > and your amazing social interaction skills wont help you at all as a necro > > > > So because of one incident with these circumstances you want the whole system changed. Doesn't sound reasonable to me sorry what am I dreaming? proof me wrong. One incident? Trying to play necro in most pugs is like queuing up in wow for a mythic ini. As a DPS player. Sometimes trying to find a group for up to two hours. Good luck. Have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > I have never once disagreed with the statement that Necromancer is underpowered. Ask any Necromancer player on this forum and they will tell you that I actually agree with many of their commentaries on the profession. Where I differ with most of them is on what to do about it. you mean Where I differ with most of them is i dont play it in raid because that is a smart good player choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > > > > The point of the topic is the mentality of everyone not allowing necros in groups for PVE > > > > > It happens if you're a necro. > > > > > If you're a guardian main or an engineer, you're not going to understand why and come up with whatever means you can get so you don't have a necro outdps you, I get that. > > > > > But, the point of the topic is that people don't want a Necro for their serious PvE content, serious spvp (except one build), or serious raiding due to low dps and nothing brought to the table. (among other problems) > > > > > We have lower dps then other classes with conditions, it's a fact, and "educating" other necros with "advice" doesn't solve this mentality because we're not always the ones leading the groups. > > > > > > > > everyone? really? thats complete BS. > > > > i also have very rarly the issue when joining a group as war dps (very very rarly) but through my amazing social interaction skills, i always got at least one try to "proof my worth" to the group. > > > > so you mean one meta build for pvp issn´t enough? you might want to disscuss this in other class forums with 0 builds in the current meta. > > > > necro is meta on various bosses, sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > > > on freaking paper, yes. i have been in pug runs with necros on top dps spot. get a static, problem solved. > > > not true > > > you are dreaming > > > so i am a necro main and i had 24 qadim KP and i know the mechanic of W6 and i join a sqaud but they kick me before i even enter the wing and i wanted to prove my worth to the sqaud but i cant i get insta kick > > > and your amazing social interaction skills wont help you at all as a necro > > > > > > > So because of one incident with these circumstances you want the whole system changed. Doesn't sound reasonable to me sorry what am I dreaming? proof me wrong. > > One incident? > > Trying to play necro in most pugs is like queuing up in wow for a mythic ini. As a DPS player. > Sometimes trying to find a group for up to two hours. > > Good luck. Have fun In world of Warcraft because of the holy trinity, the classes at least have a role they fit in dps. Also, there isn't such a huge gap between dps classes. In the past, there was a gap between hybrid classes such as paladins and Druids and classes like warlock. Many of the players who play hybrid complained that it was unfair, because it locked them out of the possibility of being a dps class, and being stuck as either a healer or a tank class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > > > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > > > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > > > > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > > > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > > > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > > > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... > > > > I have never once disagreed with the statement that Necromancer is underpowered. Ask any Necromancer player on this forum and they will tell you that I actually agree with many of their commentaries on the profession. Where I differ with most of them is on what to do about it. > > > > As for the rest, I don't buy any argument that wants to pretend that ANet doesn't want a profession played. That is just complete and utter marlarkey. ANet wants all it's professions played and Necromancer is actually very popular. They've said as much. Necromancer is the 5th most played profession and even beats out Mesmer when it comes to playtime in the game. > > > > However, increasing DPS doesn't solve your problem. They don't buff DPS because DPS isn't a true issue. The address mechanical issues. Mechanically Necromancer can do the content. The problem is social in nature, people don't want Necromancer because they are being elitest and placing a very high emphasis on DPS. That creates an artifical imbalance, which ANet will not address by buffing DPS. They won't address it because Necromancers can do it. There are people in this thread who have said as much. > > > > So I 100% don't buy your scenario and won't spend anymore time on it as I find conspraicy theories about a gaming company out to get its players as dull and unintersting. > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > > > > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > > > > > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > > > > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > > > > > > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > > > > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > > > > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > > > > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... > > > > > > The real reason to not buff necros is because of SPVP and WvW. It has to do with boon corrupt, and the way shroud is. Necromancers will always be perceived as overpowered so long as people see the life bar and the shroud and boon corrupt in spvp, because it puts them at a d disadvantage if you use big AOE spams. > > > > > > There are necros on the forum who argued to lower for instance the aoe range of scourge, but of course it got ignored and got nerfed in a different way, thus gutting the scourges. I personally like that reapers have more power in their hits in exchange for shroud duration. Would I love shroud duration back? Sure, but that's not going to happen unless ANET somehow finds a way to balance it so that necros have to do damage outside shroud and lose some of its durability. > > > > I won't deny that PvP and WvW factor into this. You and I have discussed Necromancer on many o occasion. I think the issue with Necromancer is complex and that there isn't any single magic reason. However, for the purpose of what the OP is pushing I'm focusing on the artifical limitations placed on Necromancer by the PUG community. I think that is an important thing to consider and discuss in these types of conversations. Tunnel vision on DPS doesn't allow people to find practical solutions to pick up the slack where ANet won't get invovled, likely because, as I say, the DPS situation is artifical in nature. > > > > I'm also disputing the narrative that Farkon pushes about how Necromancer sucks in PvP. Again, something you and I have discussed at length. I think people exagerate the issue and are being over dramatic. > > Sure there are many issues, such as boon corrupt has no place in pve, except fractals, along with condi corrupt. > > The question is: Is Anet going to step in and start fixing necro mechanically and do a overhaul? Because some of the stuff has to do with past changes that locked necros into a situation where mechanically speaking, they are made around boon corrupt and shroud. > > Eles for instance complain about their hp bar, and others would perceive necros to have a unfair advantage if they had high dps, while also being a damage sponge.I have seen it in the spvp area myself, so I know this to be true. > > What can be done though to fix necros? because short of raising all the hp, necros might see this as unfair too to have higher hp plus more mobility and dodges. > > Mechanically speaking too, how do you make condis useful without making them about instant burst? in games like world of Warcraft and everquest, condis do high damage over time, but you also got massive amounts of survivability on necromancers with hp drain and things like snares to keep enemies away while you run around and watch them slowly die. To me, it would be impossible to have a efficient slow damage over time class without at least some survivability added, but you have the major issue that if it deals too much damage like it did in gw2, it becomes a insta burst tech that's way overpowered and impossible to clear. > Well, as I've said before, I find an overhaul unlikely. After six years some folks actually like Necromancer as is and thinks it handles wonderfully well. I don't think ANet is going to rock that particular boat. As for a mechanical fix, it's hard to fix mechanically issues that are social in nature. I don't think most folks get that straight up DPS buffs require rebalancing elsewhere to make sure things don't become too strong or work in unintended ways. When part of the issue is social in nature just buffing things will create more problems than it solves. Sure Necro players are happy in the immediate wake of the buffs but long term I think they would find themselves upset. This isn't like Elementalist where the issue is more mechanical than social. Boon corrupts is something that I think is tricky to balance. In order for that to work you would have to start stacking them on bosses but if you put too many then you would create a situation where content is extremely difficult to complete without a Necromancer, which in the short term sounds good but in the long term is bad for the game. Flip side, I really don't think additional condi support is a good idea in a Mirage condi heavy meta. In the here and now, I don't think there is much that can be done, today. I think the next Elite might get Necromancer closer to where it needs to be. I think Reaper and then Scourge were each a positive step in the direction of solving mechanically something that is created socially by player elitism. If they get creative with how the Shroud mechanic works they could find ways to give Necromancer higher DPS (though I still find the single minded focus on that to be insane and myopic) without them also being a high HP damage sponge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > However, for the purpose of what the OP is pushing I'm focusing on the artifical limitations placed on Necromancer by the PUG community. Hmm, and _this_ is not a conspiracy theory? Artificial limitations??? pushed on the whole PUGing community??? uhu Let me tell you something about NCSoft and ArenaNet, they're not charities, they're main goal is to make profit, and say, they research what ingame effects could maximize their profits in the long run. Market researches like, what is your USP (in GW2 the Mesmer class can be considered as one of their USP's), and should we focus more or less on it, are quite normal things to do as a business. Like I said, I'm not sure about exact results, but I don't find it weird at all that factors like market research, profit maximization, sales numbers, etc. trickle down from a strategic level straight into the operational level: the game itself! It would only show you're a good business! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > > > > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > > > > > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > > > > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > > > > > > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > > > > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > > > > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > > > > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... > > > > > > I have never once disagreed with the statement that Necromancer is underpowered. Ask any Necromancer player on this forum and they will tell you that I actually agree with many of their commentaries on the profession. Where I differ with most of them is on what to do about it. > > > > > > As for the rest, I don't buy any argument that wants to pretend that ANet doesn't want a profession played. That is just complete and utter marlarkey. ANet wants all it's professions played and Necromancer is actually very popular. They've said as much. Necromancer is the 5th most played profession and even beats out Mesmer when it comes to playtime in the game. > > > > > > However, increasing DPS doesn't solve your problem. They don't buff DPS because DPS isn't a true issue. The address mechanical issues. Mechanically Necromancer can do the content. The problem is social in nature, people don't want Necromancer because they are being elitest and placing a very high emphasis on DPS. That creates an artifical imbalance, which ANet will not address by buffing DPS. They won't address it because Necromancers can do it. There are people in this thread who have said as much. > > > > > > So I 100% don't buy your scenario and won't spend anymore time on it as I find conspraicy theories about a gaming company out to get its players as dull and unintersting. > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > So basically, if I'm playing Weaver, what steps do I need to take as a Weaver player to get on the team. > > > > > Press join, and sit back until they begin the Raid/Fractal/CM? > > > > > > > > > > > Which is what creates the problem. One of the reasons why ANet doesn't just buff Corruption skills or buff Well skills or any other skills, I suspect, is that in all likeyhood those skills, from a purely mechanical game balance POV, are balanced for what they are intended to do. The core problem is that the limiations placed on Necromancer for PvE content are artifical in nature. Necromancer players who have done PvE end game content have reported being able to do the job. So the issue isn't that they can't mechaniclly perform at the level needed to do end game content. However, due to people's indivudal desires for a specfic level of effiency, they get left out. Since part of the issue involved is player community driven a straight up buff to DPS output isn't likely to produce the results you are looking for or be deemed as properly balanced for how those skills are intended to perform. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is difficult to fix artifical issues with straight up buffs to skills. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so this is interesting. But I would like to paint a scenario though. I've got a feeling that Necro is indeed underpowered, be it in DPS, Support, CC, Cleave, etc. or maybe even all of these (in the PvE endgame)! And I would feel that if you buff them a lot, it will fix the balancing (as I look at it) issue a LOT! But I believe the whole reason behind the fact that they won't (and history dictates they probably never will), might be because you will then see a LOT of Necro's out there. And I mean a **LOT**, as in: #1, played the most, **LOT**! > > > > > I sometimes really have the feeling that big chunks of this game are almost solely designed for the Necro, look at some of the weapons, armors, hell even the voice acting/lines is/are better than most of the other professions. At least IMO (and probably a lot other people with me)! I've got a slight feeling that ANet doesnt want the Necro to be played **that** much, and it _will_ be once it will be hitting DPS numbers compared to a Thief or Ele. Or will be _as_ godlike as a mesmer support-wise. > > > > > I believe that all this time we have been looking at the wrong _balancing_ scope .... It's not _just_ skills, traits, buffs, etc. It might also involve factors like look and feel, monetary value, MMO marketing principles, etc. .... > > > > > What to think of that though (as a player, not as an ANet/NCSoft board-member) .... > > > > > > > > The real reason to not buff necros is because of SPVP and WvW. It has to do with boon corrupt, and the way shroud is. Necromancers will always be perceived as overpowered so long as people see the life bar and the shroud and boon corrupt in spvp, because it puts them at a d disadvantage if you use big AOE spams. > > > > > > > > There are necros on the forum who argued to lower for instance the aoe range of scourge, but of course it got ignored and got nerfed in a different way, thus gutting the scourges. I personally like that reapers have more power in their hits in exchange for shroud duration. Would I love shroud duration back? Sure, but that's not going to happen unless ANET somehow finds a way to balance it so that necros have to do damage outside shroud and lose some of its durability. > > > > > > I won't deny that PvP and WvW factor into this. You and I have discussed Necromancer on many o occasion. I think the issue with Necromancer is complex and that there isn't any single magic reason. However, for the purpose of what the OP is pushing I'm focusing on the artifical limitations placed on Necromancer by the PUG community. I think that is an important thing to consider and discuss in these types of conversations. Tunnel vision on DPS doesn't allow people to find practical solutions to pick up the slack where ANet won't get invovled, likely because, as I say, the DPS situation is artifical in nature. > > > > > > I'm also disputing the narrative that Farkon pushes about how Necromancer sucks in PvP. Again, something you and I have discussed at length. I think people exagerate the issue and are being over dramatic. > > > > Sure there are many issues, such as boon corrupt has no place in pve, except fractals, along with condi corrupt. > > > > The question is: Is Anet going to step in and start fixing necro mechanically and do a overhaul? Because some of the stuff has to do with past changes that locked necros into a situation where mechanically speaking, they are made around boon corrupt and shroud. > > > > Eles for instance complain about their hp bar, and others would perceive necros to have a unfair advantage if they had high dps, while also being a damage sponge.I have seen it in the spvp area myself, so I know this to be true. > > > > What can be done though to fix necros? because short of raising all the hp, necros might see this as unfair too to have higher hp plus more mobility and dodges. > > > > Mechanically speaking too, how do you make condis useful without making them about instant burst? in games like world of Warcraft and everquest, condis do high damage over time, but you also got massive amounts of survivability on necromancers with hp drain and things like snares to keep enemies away while you run around and watch them slowly die. To me, it would be impossible to have a efficient slow damage over time class without at least some survivability added, but you have the major issue that if it deals too much damage like it did in gw2, it becomes a insta burst tech that's way overpowered and impossible to clear. > > > > Well, as I've said before, I find an overhaul unlikely. After six years some folks actually like Necromancer as is and thinks it handles wonderfully well. I don't think ANet is going to rock that particular boat. As for a mechanical fix, it's hard to fix mechanically issues that are social in nature. I don't think most folks get that straight up DPS buffs require rebalancing elsewhere to make sure things don't become too strong or work in unintended ways. When part of the issue is social in nature just buffing things will create more problems than it solves. Sure Necro players are happy in the immediate wake of the buffs but long term I think they would find themselves upset. This isn't like Elementalist where the issue is more mechanical than social. > > Boon corrupts is something that I think is tricky to balance. In order for that to work you would have to start stacking them on bosses but if you put too many then you would create a situation where content is extremely difficult to complete without a Necromancer, which in the short term sounds good but in the long term is bad for the game. Flip side, I really don't think additional condi support is a good idea in a Mirage condi heavy meta. In the here and now, I don't think there is much that can be done, today. I think the next Elite might get Necromancer closer to where it needs to be. I think Reaper and then Scourge were each a positive step in the direction of solving mechanically something that is created socially by player elitism. If they get creative with how the Shroud mechanic works they could find ways to give Necromancer higher DPS (though I still find the single minded focus on that to be insane and myopic) without them also being a high HP damage sponge. I think the whole nerf to abrasive grit is questionable, along with other stuff done to necromancers. Some would question the reason to nerf reaper at the time that scourge was brought out, and its a good question to me. Some of it makes you wonder if its nerfed purposefully just to make path of fire a no brainer upgrade you have to get in order to be competitive in pvp, since a lot of times in the past, the best builds were always the ones with the newest classes.Look at tempest, then look at weaver. Some of the nerfs in the past were very heavy handed, and even some folks left such as me, because I have doubts that necro will change. Folks wont all wait around forever to have necromancers fixed, and I can understand that. I haven't been around as long as some of you guys who were here since gw2 came out and many played gw1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > Boon corrupts is something that I think is tricky to balance. In order for that to work you would have to start stacking them on bosses but if you put too many then you would create a situation where content is extremely difficult to complete without a Necromancer, which in the short term sounds good but in the long term is bad for the game. Flip side, I really don't think additional condi support is a good idea in a Mirage condi heavy meta. In the here and now, I don't think there is much that can be done, today. I think the next Elite might get Necromancer closer to where it needs to be. I think Reaper and then Scourge were each a positive step in the direction of solving mechanically something that is created socially by player elitism. If they get creative with how the Shroud mechanic works they could find ways to give Necromancer higher DPS (though I still find the single minded focus on that to be insane and myopic) without them also being a high HP damage sponge. I do agree with what you say however I do think that boon corruption don't sound good for the short term in PvE. In the "short term" necromancer's boon corruption just can't face the mesmer's boon ripping, bosses are single entity that, as such, can only have so many boons and those entity, as mobs, don't rely on boons that would benefit the necromancer's boon corruption. Even if AN were to seriously increase bosses boon numbers the necromancer would stil be seriously impaired by it's teammates. As for the long term, other professions seem bound to gain more and more boon hate with each extension which will end up reducing the value of boon corruption in PvE even more. If anything, I think it is necessary to balance necromancer's (PvE only) condition number as if he don't have access at all to any kind of boon corruption. Or/and introduce an e-spec that don't rely on such mechanism for it's dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > However, for the purpose of what the OP is pushing I'm focusing on the artifical limitations placed on Necromancer by the PUG community. > Hmm, and _this_ is not a conspiracy theory? Artificial limitations??? pushed on the whole PUGing community??? uhu > > Let me tell you something about NCSoft and ArenaNet, they're not charities, they're main goal is to make profit, and say, they research what ingame effects could maximize their profits in the long run. Market researches like, what is your USP (in GW2 the Mesmer class can be considered as one of their USP's), and should we focus more or less on it, are quite normal things to do as a business. > Like I said, I'm not sure about exact results, but I don't find it weird at all that factors like market research, profit maximization, sales numbers, etc. trickle down from a strategic level straight into the operational level: the game itself! It would only show you're a good business! Well, no. What I speak of has basis in fact. What you speak of has no basis in fact. If I were to be generous I would say it is wild speculation. We know for a fact that Necromancer can complete end game PvE content. We know for a fact that the PUG community prefers to do speed runs and thus require a minium level of performance from the team. We know for a fact that Necromancer doesn't meet that minium. We know for a fact that if given the chance, however, a Necomancer can do the content. This isn't a problem unique to Necromancer. This is a problem that occurs across the board to anything that isn't deemed meta. The PUG commuinty is extremely meta driven. But you don't need to be meta in order to do end game content. Being meta just allows you to finish it faster and gives you a bit more cushion for mistakes since the builds involved are at the top of their game and thus folks aren't being required to carry. What you speak of is pure fiction. Also, you didn't tell me anything new about NCSoft or ArenaNet. I never argued that they are charities. I'm fully aware of what they are. Their main goal is to make profit, which is why what you said simply doesn't fly. Your scenario runs counter to a profit driven model in which they want everyone to be playing the game. The idea that an organization that is not a charity would be choosy about who plays what just doesn't add up. They know Necromancer is popular. Hell, we can see how popular it is on our own. Your scenario, as you outlined it, is just bad business. Since it runs counter to a for profit business model it is mostly a flight of fancy and I have little time for such conspiracies. > @"Axl.8924" said: > I think the whole nerf to abrasive grit is questionable, along with other stuff done to necromancers. > > Some would question the reason to nerf reaper at the time that scourge was brought out, and its a good question to me. > > Some of it makes you wonder if its nerfed purposefully just to make path of fire a no brainer upgrade you have to get in order to be competitive in pvp, since a lot of times in the past, the best builds were always the ones with the newest classes.Look at tempest, then look at weaver. > > Some of the nerfs in the past were very heavy handed, and even some folks left such as me, because I have doubts that necro will change. Folks wont all wait around forever to have necromancers fixed, and I can understand that. I haven't been around as long as some of you guys who were here since gw2 came out and many played gw1. > > I wouldn't call it questionable as they were honest about the logic, it was an immediate hot fix. The choice they had was a quick nerf to Abrassive Grit or let a problem that would have a negative impact on the game, as a whole, continue for however long it takes them to fix the rune or the interaction it has with Necromancer. In the grand scope of things it is logical and sensiable to have one faction take a temporay hit as opposed to the entire game. I'm not going to lie and act like it doesn't suck or act like it's fair because it does suck and it is not fair. However, that's how game balance works. I also don't buy the idea that Reaper was nerfed to force people to upgrade to Scourge. All things considered, Reaper isn't exactly weak in two modes of gameplay. Natural power creep would induce people to buy the new product. Plus they were adding mounts to the game so there is no reason to mechanically hobble the HoT Elites to get folks to buy (it's not like Chronomancer is worse off). Tempest and Weaver are victims of the difficulty involved in balancing Elementalist. There is also the matter that everything would have needed to be rebalanced when a slew of new mechanics is released so somethings will natrually become less powerful as other mechanics enter the meta. I also get not wanting to wait. However, as I stated, I don't think this is a simple problem of just do x,y, and z buffs and then Necromancer will be where you guys want it in PvE (because it is actually fairly solid in WvW and PvP). Adding DPS buffs looks and sounds easy but honestly it is not. From the outside it is hard to see just how screwy things could get with just a bunch of buffs. It is also hard to see how DPS wouldn't fix your situation when it's your favorite faction. Still, part of the problem are core design issues with Necromancer that buffing simply won't fix. It is also the case that, in many ways, the limitations placed on Necromancer are artifical. It's representive of elitism I find common in PUGing communities. I do feel, though, that with each new Elite Necromancer does get closer and closer to being where folks want it. Reaper was an improvement on Core and Scourge was an improvent on Reaper. Each new Elite spec allows them to find new and creative ways to address the issue that goes beyond the oft requested DPS buffs. Toying with the Shroud mechanic, like they did for Scourge, will likely lead to getting Necromancer where most folks want it. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > Boon corrupts is something that I think is tricky to balance. In order for that to work you would have to start stacking them on bosses but if you put too many then you would create a situation where content is extremely difficult to complete without a Necromancer, which in the short term sounds good but in the long term is bad for the game. Flip side, I really don't think additional condi support is a good idea in a Mirage condi heavy meta. In the here and now, I don't think there is much that can be done, today. I think the next Elite might get Necromancer closer to where it needs to be. I think Reaper and then Scourge were each a positive step in the direction of solving mechanically something that is created socially by player elitism. If they get creative with how the Shroud mechanic works they could find ways to give Necromancer higher DPS (though I still find the single minded focus on that to be insane and myopic) without them also being a high HP damage sponge. > > I do agree with what you say however I do think that boon corruption don't sound good for the short term in PvE. In the "short term" necromancer's boon corruption just can't face the mesmer's boon ripping, bosses are single entity that, as such, can only have so many boons and those entity, as mobs, don't rely on boons that would benefit the necromancer's boon corruption. Even if AN were to seriously increase bosses boon numbers the necromancer would stil be seriously impaired by it's teammates. As for the long term, other professions seem bound to gain more and more boon hate with each extension which will end up reducing the value of boon corruption in PvE even more. > > If anything, I think it is necessary to balance necromancer's (PvE only) condition number as if he don't have access at all to any kind of boon corruption. Or/and introduce an e-spec that don't rely on such mechanism for it's dps. I think Elite specs will likely give the options needed to be competitive at the level that PUGs want. I like the way it allows for changing the Core profession without removing the things that people have come to love and may not see as problematic. After all, there are people who feel there is nothing wrong with Necromancer and would be upset if it was radically changed to make a bunch of "whiners on the forums" happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > But, aside from that, there is a reason people want necro .... and it's not DPS. > > > > > > which was nerfed last balance patch thx to sanctuary rune Irrelevant to the discussion. People team necros, and NOT because of their DPS. So if you keep fixating on playing a DPS necro in PUGs that want meta play, then the only person to blame for your experience is yourself. Here we go: This is a L2P issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > But, aside from that, there is a reason people want necro .... and it's not DPS. > > > > > > > > > > which was nerfed last balance patch thx to sanctuary rune > > Irrelevant to the discussion. People team necros, and NOT because of their DPS. So if you keep fixating on playing a DPS necro in PUGs that want meta play, then the only person to blame for your experience is yourself. Here we go: > > This is a L2P issue. Mechanical issues related to ceilings of dps isn't a learn to play issue, but the person posting could have l2p issues if he cannot reach 30-31k who knows I don't, nor am I claiming so. I still think the nerf to grit is something that could be a issue, especially if you can no longer provide as much support with scourge with it due to the ICD. Mostly I do think necro is playable and should be fine for fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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