Can we plz get rid of sick em and attack of opportunity?

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

First off, since this is the internet, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to bully you here. I will correct you though for the sake of making sure facts are straight.

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> In the meantime, I calculated again, and the numbers are these:

> vs 3.3k armor you could do 9,381 damage

> vs 1k armor you could do 30,958 damage

> Maybe I am wrong, please someone correct me

And ...

> Instead, if he was without 3.3k armor, but only 1k armor (as glass cannon build) total damage could be = 6,079,150 / 1000 = 6,079 + all adds you could hit a damage = 28 k ...

 

First off, nobody at lvl 80 has 1k armor unless they are naked. You have 1k base toughness + about ~1.1k defense from your gear. The defense will vary about 200 based on armor class and exotic vs ascended. Toughness + Defense = Armor. **This gives a total of 2.1k armor for glass cannons.** 3.3k armor is about 1.2k bonus toughness from gear. **3.3k armor is only about 33% damage reduction compared to glass cannon.**

 

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> I am asking you this because I did some calculation:

> Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) , on this we could add Vulnerability, Attack of Opportunity and ofc Crit Damage.

>Snip...

> Maybe my calculation are not very accurate, but still from 8,462 damage to 32,000 it is a looooong way.

 

It does seem like a long way but read on.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQFABW+DsFZgAQOx3H/gGwISD-jlRBABXt/o8DgHAAe6AM+CAYmSQKV/JAwBw5nHAO/8zP/8zr5nf+5nf+5nf+5lCIiJbA-w

Overall, this equation is correct but you are missing sic'em, probably a moment of clarity which is 50%, 7% bonus damage with fury, 5% bonus after CC, "scholar bonuses" of 10% BM, 10% from SB, 5% from scholar. 10% with a GS. Maybe sigil of force/impact for another 5, 3 and 7%. Your crit damage calculation is also wrong. That's 3267 power while merged so close enough to your 3158. **So let's take the base damage of 1,842 vs 3.3k armor you calculated.** This math is right.

 

DMG = 1,842 (your number) X 2.68 (crit) X 1.4 (sic'em) X 1.5 (MoC AoO) X 1.25 (Maul AoO) X 1.25 (remorseless) X 1.1 (previous maul 5 vuln + 5 vuln from opening strike) X 1.1 X 1.1 X 1.05 (triple scholar) X 1.1 X 1.05 (sigils) X 1.07 X 1.05 X 1.1 (fury, TaV, GS traits)

Feel free to copy paste into a calculator = 1,842X2.68X1.4X1.5X1.25X1.25X1.1X1.1X1.1X1.05X1.1X1.05X1.07X1.05X1.1 = **32,313 dmg vs someone with 3.3k armor.** This also assumes the one shot was with Maul with a 1.75 coeff. With the same setup, WI would hit about 35k.

 

Do you see how crazy this gets when you go from 1.8k base damage to 33k final?

**This is only 10 vuln, zero might.**

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQFAGSAAAYA-jVhXABhqDIYlfAs/A0KBjV9HA-w

**A full minstrel druid has 3.3k armor and 22k health. This would 1 hit KO a full minstrel druid!**

 

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> I am trying to find the reason you quote me ... why? because:

> 1. I said that all enemies are glass cannon due the fact their toughness is 1000 - 1200. Also, like you said prot has 33% damage reduction, but most of the enemies were sleeping or were very-very bad.

> 3. I don't know where did you get the idea that I thought that build is fun to play, please hold your horses and don't make an assumption for something I didn't say or though.

 

You claimed that 500 bonus toughness (2.1.k base +500 toughness = 2.6k armor) would save them from a 1 shot. Having seen the above math, do you still think 500 bonus toughness from gear will save you from this combo? When the same combo sometimes does 20-23k and sometimes does 12k, that's ~40% damage reduction. They may not have much vitality but some of those enemies have armor and are still getting 1 shot.

 

I'm asking if it's fun to **play against**, not if it is fun to play. There is no "high horse." Just because something is balanced doesn't make it fun for both sides. If people aren't having fun playing the game (which is partially related to a sense of fairness), I don't think the game will flourish as much. Since I want to see the game do well, I think fun needs to dictate balance to some degree.

 

 

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" , I don't think all adds ("sic'em, probably a moment of clarity which is 50%, 7% bonus damage with fury, 5% bonus after CC, "scholar bonuses" of 10% BM, 10% from SB, 5% from scholar. 10% with a GS. Maybe sigil of force/impact for another 5, 3 and 7%" ) are multiplying with next result, then the next with the last result etc. I mean I think all multiplicators should multiply with Based Damage or something. I mean I don't think if you base damage is 3k and you have Sicm;em 40% and Remorseless the calculation it will be like (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k+3k * 40%) * 25%, but something more like : (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k + 3k * 25%) or something. Otherwise your final result it will escalate exponentially. Maybe I am wrong ...

Anyway, let's make a real test. I am on EU server, Seafarer's Rest. If you are on Desolation or other servers, come on WvW (or anyone from this forum who can help) and do some test. I'll come with 3.3k armor and 27-29k HP, and let's see if you can one-shot me with that build. I'll not use Protection, and also I'll not dodge or try to hit you before you go in invisibility.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" , I don't think all adds ("sic'em, probably a moment of clarity which is 50%, 7% bonus damage with fury, 5% bonus after CC, "scholar bonuses" of 10% BM, 10% from SB, 5% from scholar. 10% with a GS. Maybe sigil of force/impact for another 5, 3 and 7%" ) are multiplying with next result, then the next with the last result etc. I mean I think all multiplicators should multiply with Based Damage or something. I mean I don't think if you base damage is 3k and you have Sicm;em 40% and Remorseless the calculation it will be like (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k+3k * 40%) * 25%, but something more like : (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k + 3k * 25%) or something. Otherwise your final result it will escalate exponentially. Maybe I am wrong ...

> Anyway, let's make a real test. I am on EU server, Seafarer's Rest. If you are on Desolation or other servers, come on WvW (or anyone from this forum who can help) and do some test. I'll come with 3.3k armor and 27-29k HP, and let's see if you can one-shot me with that build. I'll not use Protection, and also I'll not dodge or try to hit you before you go in invisibility.

 

I assure you that the math is correct from day 1 of gw2. PvE DPS maximizing in dungeons, fotm and eventually raids was based on that and that's how you get crazy DPS in PvE: stack all the mods exponentially!

https://imgur.com/a/6U7SWCr

Go back to my previous post which analyzes that picture in detail. Those 20k, 23k, 31k and 41k WI are all on the same type of PvE enemy with the **exact same armor**. I have zero might on all of those. No one else is buffing me. It's just the difference of MoC, Maul and scholar bonuses stacking exponentially. All that PvE gear is there in WvW.

 

I just realized an important value is missing. Unbuffed WI vs that shark.

https://imgur.com/a/YTZTiW4

3.7k when it doesn't crit nor is it buffed by AoO/sic'em/opening strike. All the scholar bonuses, sigil of force, no food/might. Exact same build/gear although minor balance patches have happened. So that's your LOOONNNG stretch from 3.7k to 41k. It's even longer than the 8k to 33k ^^.

 

I am on NA SBI so unfortunately we can't test together. I offer to help test if anyone else is willing on NA. Here is how that test goes:

All I would need you to do is staff auto me since that's easy to interrupt. Precast maul. I cast Sic'em and WI mid staff auto, beastly warden/opening strike kicks in, you would take around 25-30k.

 

All that being said, for the most part, I don't think this build is OP after the first attack in combat. Here's why:

1) 33% more damage reduction with protection. Nobody runs around with perma protection before combat starts. Even with the update of protection on combat, I'm 99% certain that rune of defender doesn't protect against the first hit because the first hit is what then procs protection. However, it will against the second and after.

2) The scholar bonuses can easily disappear so that's ~27% damage that can easily be countered once a fight starts.

3) Regaining opening strike/interrupting someone in combat when stability is a thing is much harder than when it's from stealth.

4) Learn to dodge >.<. By extension, learn to interrupt, corrupt boons, apply weakness, blind etc... specific to your class.

 

**It really just comes down to the fact that I don't think the majority of this combo should be possible from the first hit from stealth**. Minor damage on sic'em would prevent a lot of this. Again, this applies to DE too etc.

 

Precasting maul also seems wrong to me. Like if you wiff in combat and your next attack gets buffed, fine. If you wiff in combat, then wiff all attacks for the next 4 seconds, you shouldn't be able to maul AoO buff your next maul when it comes off CD after 4 seconds. 2-3 seconds of AoO is enough for practical use. It also greatly reduces the ability to stealth cheese this.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" , I don't think all adds ("sic'em, probably a moment of clarity which is 50%, 7% bonus damage with fury, 5% bonus after CC, "scholar bonuses" of 10% BM, 10% from SB, 5% from scholar. 10% with a GS. Maybe sigil of force/impact for another 5, 3 and 7%" ) are multiplying with next result, then the next with the last result etc. I mean I think all multiplicators should multiply with Based Damage or something. I mean I don't think if you base damage is 3k and you have Sicm;em 40% and Remorseless the calculation it will be like (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k+3k * 40%) * 25%, but something more like : (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k + 3k * 25%) or something. Otherwise your final result it will escalate exponentially. Maybe I am wrong ...

> Anyway, let's make a real test. I am on EU server, Seafarer's Rest. If you are on Desolation or other servers, come on WvW (or anyone from this forum who can help) and do some test. I'll come with 3.3k armor and 27-29k HP, and let's see if you can one-shot me with that build. I'll not use Protection, and also I'll not dodge or try to hit you before you go in invisibility.

 

you do realize tho that your second example will result in a higher value than your first? you basically add for each modifier a full base damage there.

but regardless the way Duck is calculating them is how it currently works ingame with any profession.

 

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> I'm asking if it's fun to **play against**, not if it is fun to play. There is no "high horse." Just because something is balanced doesn't make it fun for both sides. If people aren't having fun playing the game (which is partially related to a sense of fairness), I don't think the game will flourish as much. Since I want to see the game do well, I think fun needs to dictate balance to some degree.

 

fun usually comes with balance as such. but the problem in gw2 WvW is that the population inbalance and the lack of resulting rewards makes people not actually play to win the match. these different priorities make it seem as if the balance is wrong. you would precieve most of the 'unfun' builds in a different way if you would actually play to win the match instead of going out there on a random profession and see what you may run into. and if you would play the game to win the match you would again feel the unfair population ruining your fun. players usually like to win or feel that what they do matters for the win, for example imagine spvp for some weird reason you have a 1 vs 1 for nearly the entire match on a node controlled by you and you keep the node for the entire fight and shortly before the match ends you die, then you still won the fight. in WvW the context, the mode doesnt work as its not balanced with that players 'need' encounter based balance wich is something completly different and nearly impossible to achieve with variable groupsizes. no changes to any builds will make the people in WvW overall feel more fair, there will allways be mostly 'unfair' fights when taken out of context or the context made irrelevant.

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" , I don't think all adds ("sic'em, probably a moment of clarity which is 50%, 7% bonus damage with fury, 5% bonus after CC, "scholar bonuses" of 10% BM, 10% from SB, 5% from scholar. 10% with a GS. Maybe sigil of force/impact for another 5, 3 and 7%" ) are multiplying with next result, then the next with the last result etc. I mean I think all multiplicators should multiply with Based Damage or something. I mean I don't think if you base damage is 3k and you have Sicm;em 40% and Remorseless the calculation it will be like (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k+3k * 40%) * 25%, but something more like : (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k + 3k * 25%) or something. Otherwise your final result it will escalate exponentially. Maybe I am wrong ...

> > Anyway, let's make a real test. I am on EU server, Seafarer's Rest. If you are on Desolation or other servers, come on WvW (or anyone from this forum who can help) and do some test. I'll come with 3.3k armor and 27-29k HP, and let's see if you can one-shot me with that build. I'll not use Protection, and also I'll not dodge or try to hit you before you go in invisibility.

>

> you do realize tho that your second example will result in a higher value than your first? you basically add for each modifier a full base damage there.

> but regardless the way Duck is calculating them is how it currently works ingame with any profession.

>

My mistake I want to say : (3k+3k * 40%) + (3k * 25%) ... @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" understand anyway.

 

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > I'm asking if it's fun to **play against**, not if it is fun to play. There is no "high horse." Just because something is balanced doesn't make it fun for both sides. If people aren't having fun playing the game (which is partially related to a sense of fairness), I don't think the game will flourish as much. Since I want to see the game do well, I think fun needs to dictate balance to some degree.

>

> fun usually comes with balance as such. but the problem in gw2 WvW is that the population inbalance and the lack of resulting rewards makes people not actually play to win the match. these different priorities make it seem as if the balance is wrong. you would precieve most of the 'unfun' builds in a different way if you would actually play to win the match instead of going out there on a random profession and see what you may run into. and if you would play the game to win the match you would again feel the unfair population ruining your fun. players usually like to win or feel that what they do matters for the win, for example imagine spvp for some weird reason you have a 1 vs 1 for nearly the entire match on a node controlled by you and you keep the node for the entire fight and shortly before the match ends you die, then you still won the fight. in WvW the context, the mode doesnt work as its not balanced with that players 'need' encounter based balance wich is something completly different and nearly impossible to achieve with variable groupsizes. no changes to any builds will make the people in WvW overall feel more fair, there will allways be mostly 'unfair' fights when taken out of context or the context made irrelevant.

>

 

Yes and no. In general, pure RNG games are perfectly balanced but I wouldn't consider them fun to play or play against. There are of course other problems such as the population imbalance. I don't have much to comment on that since I don't think there is anything I could say to help Anet out there.

 

What I mean by fun to play against is more like old school thief stealth:

Shadow refuge means you nuke the area/use aoe knockbacks to try and counter it.

You see a D/P thief use p5? Stand in it so that you get hit by d2 and reveal the thief.

You messed up and they are stealthed now? Try to mind game them so your back isn't exposed for double damage.

Ppl still complained about perma stealth etc back then but it didn't feel as cheap to me.

 

Now it's dodge with a rifle equipped. You don't even have to be kneeling for it. Then the elite counters reveal. There is nothing to counter there compared to the above. Position matter less since flanking isn't a big deal. It's unblockable. RIP.

 

Despite all that, I actually consider it balanced in PvP. I just don't think it's fun to play against, especially in WvW. The closest you can get to population balance in WvW is reset night when all maps are full q. I'm ok being ganked by a bigger team. That means somewhere else on the map, my team outnumbers them in theory. Commaders obviously get it since they keep yelling at ppl not to squirrel. So I get the playing the game mode aspect. I would much prefer a DD or base thief fight over DE though.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > I'm asking if it's fun to **play against**, not if it is fun to play. There is no "high horse." Just because something is balanced doesn't make it fun for both sides. If people aren't having fun playing the game (which is partially related to a sense of fairness), I don't think the game will flourish as much. Since I want to see the game do well, I think fun needs to dictate balance to some degree.

> >

> > fun usually comes with balance as such. but the problem in gw2 WvW is that the population inbalance and the lack of resulting rewards makes people not actually play to win the match. these different priorities make it seem as if the balance is wrong. you would precieve most of the 'unfun' builds in a different way if you would actually play to win the match instead of going out there on a random profession and see what you may run into. and if you would play the game to win the match you would again feel the unfair population ruining your fun. players usually like to win or feel that what they do matters for the win, for example imagine spvp for some weird reason you have a 1 vs 1 for nearly the entire match on a node controlled by you and you keep the node for the entire fight and shortly before the match ends you die, then you still won the fight. in WvW the context, the mode doesnt work as its not balanced with that players 'need' encounter based balance wich is something completly different and nearly impossible to achieve with variable groupsizes. no changes to any builds will make the people in WvW overall feel more fair, there will allways be mostly 'unfair' fights when taken out of context or the context made irrelevant.

> >

>

> Yes and no. In general, pure RNG games are perfectly balanced but I wouldn't consider them fun to play or play against. There are of course other problems such as the population imbalance. I don't have much to comment on that since I don't think there is anything I could say to help Anet out there.

>

> What I mean by fun to play against is more like old school thief stealth:

> Shadow refuge means you nuke the area/use aoe knockbacks to try and counter it.

> You see a D/P thief use p5? Stand in it so that you get hit by d2 and reveal the thief.

> You messed up and they are stealthed now? Try to mind game them so your back isn't exposed for double damage.

> Ppl still complained about perma stealth etc back then but it didn't feel as cheap to me.

>

> Now it's dodge with a rifle equipped. You don't even have to be kneeling for it. Then the elite counters reveal. There is nothing to counter there compared to the above. Position matter less since flanking isn't a big deal. It's unblockable. RIP.

>

> Despite all that, I actually consider it balanced in PvP. I just don't think it's fun to play against, especially in WvW. The closest you can get to population balance in WvW is reset night when all maps are full q. I'm ok being ganked by a bigger team. That means somewhere else on the map, my team outnumbers them in theory. Commaders obviously get it since they keep yelling at ppl not to squirrel. So I get the playing the game mode aspect. I would much prefer a DD or base thief fight over DE though.

 

so its more like i dont like to play professions that dont have boonrip anymore because it is super annoying if you see your opponent with 10 boons and you cant counter it. or i dont really enjoy invulnerabilities / evades during wich my opponents hit me. i also dont like my opponents having access to more mobility or having more range. pretty much anything that can help my opponents to win against me or to avoid them losing against me (getting away) is something i may consider unfun and anet should do something about it :3

i could now go on about how you cant compare the relevance of stealth from a d/p DD and a rifle deadeye but i doubt that belongs here.

 

but the main important point was that the context of the fight is one of the major factors for anything you do during the fight. again just look at how people fight 1 vs 1 over a node in spvp compared to how they fight in a duel in WvW. in WvW only killing your opponent matters, in spvp its much more important how you kill them and considering old bunker meta the killing as such is not even important. with context attacking your opponent will be just one method of fighting them. currently when you die in WvW during roaming you basically 'lost'. sure its just pixels and we dont need to care but we still rather win. with context you can die and still win or kill your opponent and still lose wich will make you precieve every little mechanic in a different light than if it would be kill = win, die = lose.

 

the problem with the population means that i might pull off an excellent performance in running around the block with 20 opponents chasing me for half an hours and the same server still outnumbers my server on every map on top! wich kind of makes my performance irrelevant and it would have been better to gank at spawn one by one for more rewards and same overall result maybe even overall more score for my server as i personally have made more direct score.

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > I'm asking if it's fun to **play against**, not if it is fun to play. There is no "high horse." Just because something is balanced doesn't make it fun for both sides. If people aren't having fun playing the game (which is partially related to a sense of fairness), I don't think the game will flourish as much. Since I want to see the game do well, I think fun needs to dictate balance to some degree.

> > >

> > > fun usually comes with balance as such. but the problem in gw2 WvW is that the population inbalance and the lack of resulting rewards makes people not actually play to win the match. these different priorities make it seem as if the balance is wrong. you would precieve most of the 'unfun' builds in a different way if you would actually play to win the match instead of going out there on a random profession and see what you may run into. and if you would play the game to win the match you would again feel the unfair population ruining your fun. players usually like to win or feel that what they do matters for the win, for example imagine spvp for some weird reason you have a 1 vs 1 for nearly the entire match on a node controlled by you and you keep the node for the entire fight and shortly before the match ends you die, then you still won the fight. in WvW the context, the mode doesnt work as its not balanced with that players 'need' encounter based balance wich is something completly different and nearly impossible to achieve with variable groupsizes. no changes to any builds will make the people in WvW overall feel more fair, there will allways be mostly 'unfair' fights when taken out of context or the context made irrelevant.

> > >

> >

> > Yes and no. In general, pure RNG games are perfectly balanced but I wouldn't consider them fun to play or play against. There are of course other problems such as the population imbalance. I don't have much to comment on that since I don't think there is anything I could say to help Anet out there.

> >

> > What I mean by fun to play against is more like old school thief stealth:

> > Shadow refuge means you nuke the area/use aoe knockbacks to try and counter it.

> > You see a D/P thief use p5? Stand in it so that you get hit by d2 and reveal the thief.

> > You messed up and they are stealthed now? Try to mind game them so your back isn't exposed for double damage.

> > Ppl still complained about perma stealth etc back then but it didn't feel as cheap to me.

> >

> > Now it's dodge with a rifle equipped. You don't even have to be kneeling for it. Then the elite counters reveal. There is nothing to counter there compared to the above. Position matter less since flanking isn't a big deal. It's unblockable. RIP.

> >

> > Despite all that, I actually consider it balanced in PvP. I just don't think it's fun to play against, especially in WvW. The closest you can get to population balance in WvW is reset night when all maps are full q. I'm ok being ganked by a bigger team. That means somewhere else on the map, my team outnumbers them in theory. Commaders obviously get it since they keep yelling at ppl not to squirrel. So I get the playing the game mode aspect. I would much prefer a DD or base thief fight over DE though.

>

> so its more like i dont like to play professions that dont have boonrip anymore because it is super annoying if you see your opponent with 10 boons and you cant counter it. or i dont really enjoy invulnerabilities / evades during wich my opponents hit me. i also dont like my opponents having access to more mobility or having more range. pretty much anything that can help my opponents to win against me or to avoid them losing against me (getting away) is something i may consider unfun and anet should do something about it :3

> i could now go on about how you cant compare the relevance of stealth from a d/p DD and a rifle deadeye but i doubt that belongs here.

>

On some level yeah.

 

I don't like playing against enemies that have too much invul/evade while hitting me. However, if I smartly disengage/bait out an enemies invuln then reengage, I can enjoy that moment so long as it's not 10 seconds of invuln kinda thing. Anet realizes this and reduced the duration and CD of various invuln so that they are more timing/skill based while greatly increasing the CD of passive invuln proc from traits. I think both current and past iterations of endure pain are/were balanced but this new iteration is a lot more fun to fight. There are also attacks that cannot be blocked or evaded so using those at the right time is rewarding.

 

I don't like playing enemies with more range IFF they have too much mobility to keep that distance but that's why Anet tends to balance melee weapons with more mobility than ranged weapons. PvP maps have terrain so you can try to duck and weave as you get close to your enemies and I enjoy that.

 

I'm also ok having disadvantages if my teammates can help me with them. I wouldn't main necro in PvP if I didn't. I wouldn't say everyone but at least some people have fun relying and supporting their teammates

 

So I don't consider disadvantages and fun mutually exclusive. In fact, I think well balanced disadvantages and counters are what make games fun to me. However, I don't get how anyone could enjoy getting 1 shot out of stealth in WvW though. Nor do I think perfect population balance would change that. Since you link to sirlin ptw, I'll just say this: I' don't think I'm calling it unfun as a scrub. I'm not calling it broke in WvW like Akuma. I think 1 shots from stealth are on Old Sagat levels of unfun which eliminates half the available cast in roaming. I suspect, although I have no real proof, stuff like this makes population balance worst.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> So I don't consider disadvantages and fun mutually exclusive. In fact, I think well balanced disadvantages and counters are what make games fun to me. However, I don't get how anyone could enjoy getting 1 shot out of stealth in WvW though. Nor do I think perfect population balance would change that. Since you link to sirlin ptw, I'll just say this: I' don't think I'm calling it unfun as a scrub. I'm not calling it broke in WvW like Akuma. I think 1 shots from stealth are on Old Sagat levels of unfun which eliminates half the available cast in roaming. I suspect, although I have no real proof, stuff like this makes population balance worst.

 

IMO if the game had full maps 24/7 etc. on WvW and people would play to win a match. then only builds with stealth would be running solo, not because of the other solo roamers they face but because of the groups they face. assuming close skill level you wouldnt stand a chance in an outnumbered fight. and then we havent even covered possible disadvantagous matchups that you need to avoid. then again when only stealthers are solo roaming, they probably wont even fight each other much but more scouting/sabotage supply lines etc.

but yeah i wouldnt be opposed to a complete rework to the stealth system along with a thief rework, that might allow me to avoid groups with stealth while not 'forcing' me to tailor my fights around it aswell. basically i would like stealth to be mostly a mechanic for between fights to pick the fights and not within the fight. i will still play with mostly stealth when solo just for picking even if that means i have to ruin my opponents fun during the fight.

[Substance E.4852]

>Ranger basic competence as a class being mistaken as "overpowered'ness"

 

6 years of this shit...

[Lazze.9870]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

>

> 1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.

> 2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

>

> both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for **PETS**. not for the ranger himself.

>

> and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

>

>

 

I will give you something to think about.

 

Soulbeast RELIES on these damage modifier to stay relevant for power damage in raids. Doesn't that say something about how severly underpowered ranger's power coefficients are in the first place?

 

Why do I mention raids in a thread about wvw whining? Becasuse a nerf to sic'em and AoO means they (finally) need to buff the baseline coefficients of the ranger's weapon. And yes, that applies to wvw and pvp too.

 

You're talking about damage modifiers being introduced to the pet, not the ranger, without realizing the ranger has had its own damage gutted since launch for having a pet in the first place.

[Xtinct.7031]

I don't think it is a coincidence that we are seeing more and more longbow rangers of various specs getting into the wvw roaming scene and attempting to +1 enemy targets.

It is pretty easy to do so with high reward, especially if the target has a stun break on CD. So, I agree with the op, Anet does needs to take another look at all these ranger +Direct traited dmg modifiers, Maul shouldn't hit people for over 30k or whatever and certainly an axe main hand auto shouldn't oneshot people.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

> >

> > 1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.

> > 2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

> >

> > both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for **PETS**. not for the ranger himself.

> >

> > and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

> >

> >

>

> I will give you something to think about.

>

> Soulbeast RELIES on these damage modifier to stay relevant for power damage in raids. Doesn't that say something about how severly underpowered ranger's power coefficients are in the first place?

>

> Why do I mention raids in a thread about wvw whining? Becasuse a nerf to sic'em and AoO means they (finally) need to buff the baseline coefficients of the ranger's weapon. And yes, that applies to wvw and pvp too.

>

> You're talking about damage modifiers being introduced to the pet, not the ranger, without realizing the ranger has had its own damage gutted since launch for having a pet in the first place.

 

I fully agree with you and just finished 2h of raiding on my power SB that I really enjoy playing. So let's discuss this. There are a few ways to balance PvP/WvW without breaking functionality in PvE.

 

Splits:

Sic'em 40% in PvE, 25% in PvP/WvW.

Zero problem for PvE players.

 

Functionality change:

AoO on Maul only lasts 3 seconds.

Under no circumstance should you not immediately use GS4, GS5, WI, or Gazelle F2 after casting Maul. So changing AoO to last 3 second instead of 10 doesn't affect PvE DPS rotations while reducing ease of stealth 1 shots in PvP/WvW.

 

Nerf "PvP specific traits":

PvE: Farsighted/Predator's Onslaught is meta

PvP: MoC and Remorseless are "meta for glass cannons"

 

I think I'm one of the very few rangers that uses MoC/Remoreseless in PvE and that is only for Power Druid in fractals for the 50% stun/daze duration for break bars and easy vulnerability to further buff my allies. I don't care about the 50% or 25% damage mods in those situations nor does anyone serious DPS rotation use those traits. So they could nerf those components entirely, rework them (my personal wish for MM/opening strike) or split the nerfs if necessary.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

From my POV this is the bad and kitten idea. Many of you are complaining here about Sick'Em, that it is so powerful. Yes it is only with zerk gear, otherwise is just another skill who can help you to do more damage, when you wear a balanced gear.

Did you see the new meta Thief? Vault thief? 10-18k AOE damage, and in the same time evade? Which one of you, who want to nerf Sick'Em and Attack of opportunity fought in a glass cannon build vs this thief? or vs new weaver build, or vs mesmer or spellbreaker? I am pretty sure no one.

These are the classes who rules now the WvW (in small group fights) mesmer, thief (vault daredevil and deadeye), spellbreaker and weaver. All 4 classes can run a glass cannon build, and do the same amount of damage as a ranger, but with a lot more survivability skills.

When ranger will have the same chances in a glass cannon build as these 4 classes, then come here and ask for a nerf.

 

PS: This player @"Zero.3871" who started this post is a necromancer, he play most of the time necro. Zero, why did you come here and ask to nerf ranger? Aaaa, I know, because ranger is your highest opponent in this game.

I am wondering how many of rangers (and especially the one who agrees that their class be nerfed) are going on other class forum and make post to nerf that class.

 

GL & HF, we deserve to be nerfed ... because we ask for this ... shame ...

[Zero.3871]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> From my POV this is the bad and kitten idea. Many of you are complaining here about Sick'Em, that it is so powerful. Yes it is only with zerk gear, otherwise is just another skill who can help you to do more damage, when you wear a balanced gear.

> Did you see the new meta Thief? Vault thief? 10-18k AOE damage, and in the same time evade? Which one of you, who want to nerf Sick'Em and Attack of opportunity fought in a glass cannon build vs this thief? or vs new weaver build, or vs mesmer or spellbreaker? I am pretty sure no one.

> These are the classes who rules now the WvW (in small group fights) mesmer, thief (vault daredevil and deadeye), spellbreaker and weaver. All 4 classes can run a glass cannon build, and do the same amount of damage as a ranger, but with a lot more survivability skills.

> When ranger will have the same chances in a glass cannon build as these 4 classes, then come here and ask for a nerf.

>

> PS: This player @"Zero.3871" who started this post is a necromancer, he play most of the time necro. Zero, why did you come here and ask to nerf ranger? Aaaa, I know, because ranger is your highest opponent in this game.

> I am wondering how many of rangers (and especially the one who agrees that their class be nerfed) are going on other class forum and make post to nerf that class.

>

> GL & HF, we deserve to be nerfed ... because we ask for this ... shame ...

 

seems ur toxic. so i try to be Kind:

 

but first, it has Nothing to do with what i am playing and People who try to bring those discussions on a personal Level just Show me that they have no arguments. finally it is just fact, that a skill that is able to hit for 30k dmg should neither exist nor have a 4 sec cd. is 18 k vault balanced? no! but 1 broken skill doesnt justify another broken skill. in that Argumentation we could also say, revert dhuumfire and sand savant nerfes and see how scourges burn down the whole world again^^, not that great idea i think...

 

also a dmg modifier that increase your dmg by 40 % allow you to Play very tanky builds while still casting huge dmg. and rangers are by far not that defenseless like you try to say. even as full zerker you have a lot of evade/block Frames. GS4 already grant you 25 % block uptime (3 sec block with 12 sec cd) on range and since ranger is the 2nd fastest class in the game (because of double swoop every 10 sec) their opponents are barely able to trigger this block on melee range.

 

in Addition you have signet of Stone (3sec invul in wvw) and lesser signet of Stone (5 sec invul in wvw).

 

and sry to say that, but i see 50% of roamers currently playing ranger. sure, just my personal experience on Maps so Maybe other persons see more thiefes or mesmers. but this class has Access to greatest range in game. 2nd fastest in mobility. massive Sustain by blocks/invuls/dodges, great Access to heal and boons, plus one shoot potential.

 

i dont want ranger to be deleted from raoming. i just want dmg modifiers on soulbeast in line with other in game so that ranger requires more than, activate sickem, cast GS2 one time, and lets go (while invul).

 

and i also dont want nerfes against rangers in pve. like someone already mentioned. we are in 2018, not in 2012. we now have skillsplit and we should use it. my request was only for wvw. not spvp, not pve.

 

 

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > From my POV this is the bad and kitten idea. Many of you are complaining here about Sick'Em, that it is so powerful. Yes it is only with zerk gear, otherwise is just another skill who can help you to do more damage, when you wear a balanced gear.

> > Did you see the new meta Thief? Vault thief? 10-18k AOE damage, and in the same time evade? Which one of you, who want to nerf Sick'Em and Attack of opportunity fought in a glass cannon build vs this thief? or vs new weaver build, or vs mesmer or spellbreaker? I am pretty sure no one.

> > These are the classes who rules now the WvW (in small group fights) mesmer, thief (vault daredevil and deadeye), spellbreaker and weaver. All 4 classes can run a glass cannon build, and do the same amount of damage as a ranger, but with a lot more survivability skills.

> > When ranger will have the same chances in a glass cannon build as these 4 classes, then come here and ask for a nerf.

> >

> > PS: This player @"Zero.3871" who started this post is a necromancer, he play most of the time necro. Zero, why did you come here and ask to nerf ranger? Aaaa, I know, because ranger is your highest opponent in this game.

> > I am wondering how many of rangers (and especially the one who agrees that their class be nerfed) are going on other class forum and make post to nerf that class.

> >

> > GL & HF, we deserve to be nerfed ... because we ask for this ... shame ...

>

> seems ur toxic. so i try to be Kind:

>

> but first, it has Nothing to do with what i am playing and People who try to bring those discussions on a personal Level just Show me that they have no arguments. finally it is just fact, that a skill that is able to hit for 30k dmg should neither exist nor have a 4 sec cd. is 18 k vault balanced? no! but 1 broken skill doesnt justify another broken skill. in that Argumentation we could also say, revert dhuumfire and sand savant nerfes and see how scourges burn down the whole world again^^, not that great idea i think...

>

> also a dmg modifier that increase your dmg by 40 % allow you to Play very tanky builds while still casting huge dmg. and rangers are by far not that defenseless like you try to say. even as full zerker you have a lot of evade/block Frames. GS4 already grant you 25 % block uptime (3 sec block with 12 sec cd) on range and since ranger is the 2nd fastest class in the game (because of double swoop every 10 sec) their opponents are barely able to trigger this block on melee range.

>

> in Addition you have signet of Stone (3sec invul in wvw) and lesser signet of Stone (5 sec invul in wvw).

>

> and sry to say that, but i see 50% of roamers currently playing ranger. sure, just my personal experience on Maps so Maybe other persons see more thiefes or mesmers. but this class has Access to greatest range in game. 2nd fastest in mobility. massive Sustain by blocks/invuls/dodges, great Access to heal and boons, plus one shoot potential.

>

> i dont want ranger to be deleted from raoming. i just want dmg modifiers on soulbeast in line with other in game so that ranger requires more than, activate sickem, cast GS2 one time, and lets go (while invul).

>

> and i also dont want nerfes against rangers in pve. like someone already mentioned. we are in 2018, not in 2012. we now have skillsplit and we should use it. my request was only for wvw. not spvp, not pve.

>

>

>

 

For that 30k damage from Maul, you can't have Signet of Stone or other defence utility. I am not toxic, I am saying the truth.

To build up that 30k damage on Maul, you need all other offensive traits and utility, is not like you are using Sic'Em and than land the Maul, and that's it, you get 30k, and in the same time you have all defensive you talk about. Definitely you didn't play Power ranger glass cannon vs classes I talked about, and definitely, you didn't play on Tier 1 WvW. Because on Tier 1 rarely you will find another glass cannon who sleeping, so you can land that 30k with Maul. You will die before you can get close to an enemy. I understand your frustration, because, as I said, you are necro, and we, rangers, are your nightmare. Still, this doesn't give you the right (well, it's a saying, because you have the right to post whatever you want and everywhere you want) to come on ranger forum and complain.

 

PS: 1. I am pretty sure that nobody cares if a ranger does more damage than other class in PVE .... when it comes about damage, usual ppl are complaining in sPVP and WvW.

2. Do you know that a glass cannon ranger who can land 30k with Maul, has zero condi clean? As I said, don't come here and cry if your power build is beaten by another build. Change to condi build, necro is still very powerful in condi build, so you have something to kill power glass cannon ranger, ranger doesn't, because ranger condi build are worst in WvW.

3. Even we use signet of stone and the trait Stoneform (even using this we will not land that 30k ever), again vs condi build that invulnerability is ZERO!!!.

 

 

 

[GW Noob.6038]

HA! The OP doesn't play a Ranger...he's prolly salty over a recent defeat at the hands of a Ranger!

[InsaneQR.7412]

Why not just make sick em give an attack of opportunity and AoO is now a short duration based buff.

So you only stack AoO which means less dmg, but you can stack it for a bit longer duration to deal dmg and not just 1 attack.

This would be the middle ground of both things. Now with the right trait interactions it should be something useful for PvE but surely opposing defensive traits so it wouldnt be top priority for PvP to go full on dmg.

I understand both sides that stacking dmg modifiers is bad design and annoying to play against. But ranger relies on self buffs to compensate for bad power modifiers and it sacrifices all its survivability.

 

 

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Yeah, naw. Don't listen to OP's advice here Dev's. Ranger needs more buffing honestly. What really needs to be done, if anything, is to find a way to make all classes inclusive to Zerging. Otherwise, if we are going to have dedicated classes for roaming then they need to be dedicated classes for roaming and as such buffed to the point that they have a purpose more than just flipping camps and scouting for the megablobs. Roamers need to have the ability to handle themselves in situations where they get 5v1 and such. And if we are going to make suggestions on nerfing other classes that we don't normally play, then nerf Scourge's red carpet of death and Thieve's stealth stacking. That kitten is more OP than a glassy Ranger.

[Atronach.8520]

I don't see what's wrong here honestly. Arguably every class except warrior has 1-shot builds or potential, and if you get hit by 30k maul from stealth that means either a) you weren't paying attention or b) you are very bad at roaming. Hell Sic 'em is a shout as well, its not like you got hit with that burst out of nowhere. Especially that SB can't really stealth stack. Rangers still need a place in wvw, we're looked upon as worthless most of the time, and don't bring in anything aside from roaming- which keeps getting nerfed again and again.

[Noha.3749]

During my time in WvW ive never encountered a situation where i find any rangerbuild to be "op" or "needing nerf".

 

Sure longbow spam from 1800 range is very annoying and can catch you offguard, but its not like there is enough projectile hate or that you can dodge plenty of the shots lul?

The only times i can get really pissed about a ranger is if im dueling or escaping a fight wounded and a random ranger smells me from outside of visionrange and starts casually throwing some hard hitting arrows after my scent trail and eventually downs me. Cutting off my escaperoute and allowing his/hers friends to catch up. Its kinda SALTY but sure as hell isnt "unfair". I play all professions except ranger and (condi/support)guardian, and have NEVER felt that rangers need a nerf. Not even once.

[anduriell.6280]

> @"Atronach.8520" said:

> I don't see what's wrong here honestly. Arguably every class except warrior has 1-shot builds or potential, and if you get hit by 30k maul from stealth that means either a) you weren't paying attention or b) you are very bad at roaming. Hell Sic 'em is a shout as well, its not like you got hit with that burst out of nowhere. Especially that SB can't really stealth stack. Rangers still need a place in wvw, we're looked upon as worthless most of the time, and don't bring in anything aside from roaming- which keeps getting nerfed again and again.

 

Although i agree with you i don't think promoting one shot builds from stealth is healthy for anything: when you get one shot and you can't see why it doesn't feel fair. Ever. And you can try to cope with that but eventually it will get you.

 

For the ranger to be tolerated in wvw my opinion is it needs improvements:

* excels at ranged single target combat at kitting. should be able to proc pojectile combo fields very often.

* revert back the nerfs to spirits. They have the tremedous potential to give the ranger a limited access to group support and ranged AoE the ranger lacks.

* It needs limited access to condi AoE. Traps, spirit actives and shortbow needs improvements. Improvements doesn't mean more direct damage but better design to be adaptable to the wvw situation.

 

Druid: group support, it should heal, soft CC and empower allies. Should not provide boons by itself to fight against the boon spam and to avoid all-in-one support it all.

* Crazy idea but it needs to compete with the scourge. Druid should be able to corrupt conditions into regeneration and limited access to protection.

* Druid needs to bring plain buffs to the group specific to the druid. The original GotL was a good idea, just needs another thought. Like the posibility to empower the boons the player has instead to give a new one. Those changes are already in runes and traits so my guess it's possible.

 

Soulbeast: Should be able to play closer to a guardian or warrior, with the melee block. Short range high dps and support with stances and pet skills, with an hybrid damage.

* great potential with the stances, they just need to be as great as they are for the group as for the ranger..

* needs less clunky mechanics with the pet merging.

* provide meaningfull effects when merged with the pet skills at the cost of high CD.

* Traits should reflect this, removing plain DpS increases (when merged or other circumstances) and increase damage at a range to allow the soulbeast to do high spikes in melee but not at range.

 

For next specialitation:

* ranged AoE hybrid Dps like the scourge or the elementalist.

 

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Nerfing or removing maul or attack of opportunity would our right cripple rangers melee viability aspecially against today’s melee power creep specs, holo,mirage,warrior to name a few no thanks, lowering the amount of viable classes makes things worse, now if mail and attack of opportunity were to get nerfed as part of a full game numbers lowered blanket nerf than that would be a good thing

[Dante.1763]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"bigo.9037" said:

> > > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > > When Mirages and Thieves lose their ridiculous ability to perpetually dodge, vanish, escape, ambush, etc. while still doing insta-kill DPS, then maybe we'll talk about what needs nerfed on Ranger. Or any other class for that matter. Stop trying to balance around PVP and WVW modes when the majority of the game is and always will be PVE.

> >

> > so just because more players are in pve we should ignore pvp balance?

> >

> >

> It would be nice for a change, I'm tired of our pets being gutted because of whiny PVPers.

>

 

I just love having a grand total of two pets im allowed to use in PVE, Iboga, and Tiger(dont run druid), the rest are trash, and theyve still gotten nerfs to make them worse.

[Teratus.2859]

Another I hate these skills in PvP erase them from the game posts :P

 

Well as a main Ranger who doesn't play PvP.. i'm gonna say absolutely not lol

I like these skills and I don't see why all us PvE and WvW players should have to miss out because you keep getting killed in PvP :P

 

Skill splitting is the only option Anet.. we need it per game mode or this problem is never going away.. either that or just get rid of PvP and WvW instead :P

 

Seriously though I really hate when players in one game mode screw over the others by constantly nagging to nerf something.. the game doesn't revolve around you or your preferred game mode.

Argue for skill splitting instead literally everyone wins that way.