Are Black Lion Keys "Loot Boxes" ?

[Palador.2170]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

 

You didn't buy a key, that's great. But others have. And if all you're after is Item A, then getting Item B doesn't mean you won. It means you've lost, and are now tempted to take another shot to get Item A.

 

Right now, there's a throne in the BLCs that can only be gotten from the BLCs. So, we'll use that as an example. Now, let's say someone spends $50 on keys trying to get it. They buy their keys, and they do get a lot of stuff, but not the throne. For them, this feels like a loss. Maybe what they DID get will be worth more than $50 in gems, maybe it won't be, it's hard to say but it's not guaranteed to be. People CAN lose, and it's all based on luck. This is why it's gambling. If YOU lose or not doesn't change that.

 

Also, that key you didn't pay for? Yes, there's a few ways to get them in-game, even without exchanging gold to gems. That's not done out of the kindness of ANet's heart, though. Like the old saying goes, "The first one's free". The chests themselves are basically an advertisement to remind you that the keys are there for sale if you want them. The free keys are like someone offering you a free cigarette in the hopes that you'll become addicted to them. Maybe you won't, but some people will.

 

Now, to ANet's defense: Their loot boxes are hardly the worst out there, and they've taken steps towards moving away from that. They've not made the final jump, but I can see progress and I hope they're getting ready to do it willingly rather than wait until they're forced.

[Neutra.6857]

I think a lot of the problem can be solved if the items you get from the box could be bought on the TP, rather then having them be account bound it would also solve the issue of people having the infinite version and then getting more of the single use items). It means that there is a way to get the item you want in game without paying (yes I know you can get keys by key farming but that is only once a week, map completion, and very rare drops from mobs).

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Palador.2170" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

>

> You didn't buy a key, that's great. But others have. And if all you're after is Item A, then getting Item B doesn't mean you won. It means you've lost, and are now tempted to take another shot to get Item A.

>

> Right now, there's a throne in the BLCs that can only be gotten from the BLCs. So, we'll use that as an example. Now, let's say someone spends $50 on keys trying to get it. They buy their keys, and they do get a lot of stuff, but not the throne. For them, this feels like a loss. Maybe what they DID get will be worth more than $50 in gems, maybe it won't be, it's hard to say but it's not guaranteed to be. People CAN lose, and it's all based on luck. This is why it's gambling. If YOU lose or not doesn't change that.

>

> Also, that key you didn't pay for? Yes, there's a few ways to get them in-game, even without exchanging gold to gems. That's not done out of the kindness of ANet's heart, though. Like the old saying goes, "The first one's free". The chests themselves are basically an advertisement to remind you that the keys are there for sale if you want them. The free keys are like someone offering you a free cigarette in the hopes that you'll become addicted to them. Maybe you won't, but some people will.

>

> Now, to ANet's defense: Their loot boxes are hardly the worst out there, and they've taken steps towards moving away from that. They've not made the final jump, but I can see progress and I hope they're getting ready to do it willingly rather than wait until they're forced.

 

...and it is entirely up to you to spend or not. I don't have the throne, and yet, none of my eight toons are unable to play w/out it. So, if takes me a year, or if I never get it, it doesn't matter. Being in a hurry to get something, or wanting something now, isn't the fault of a gaming company for making that item available. It's a problem for the person that's not willing to wait, and for someone with the disposable income, it's not a problem at all, until or unless that item is required, such as the last Star Wars thing. That was shady, what we have here? Nope. The argument has been put forward in this thread that not having the indestructible tools is asinine, and so they are P2W. I'm thinking that the 30ish silver a week I spend on tools isn't costing me a dime, therefore isn't all that asinine. That poster believed that they were needed to play, but they're not. Neither is the throne in your example. When did someone else's lack of self control become someone else's problem? Because trying to blame ANet for someone really wanting a throne, and throwing money at it is doing just that, especially on an item you don't need to progress.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Will.9785" said:

> Yes, and I hope they are removed from all games including GW2. If you want to sell me something then do it. Don't try to hind it behind lootbox RNG (looking at you mount pack #1, desert king throne, etc).

>

> I know 2 people who opened over 50 chests each to get the new chair and only 1 of them actually got it.

>

> This seems like something that would be VERY easy to manipulate.... like if you know someone is inclined to spend more cash then you would lower the drop rate for them to bleed them for more money. And no one would be able to tell because "RNG".

 

Got my throne on the 12key and I was really after the wild glider.

No harm done can buy it for statuettes later

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > Loot boxes arent legally gambling in most countries. They are gambling by every other definition of the word. Especially when it comes down to the psychological manipulation they utilize. I believe the only reason they arent legally gambling in most countries is because laws regarding technology are so out of date.

> > Gaming commissions have been utterly incompetent at self regulation, totally ignoring their own guide lines in favor of profits. So while I dont like government regulation, I believe in this case, where the industry has totally failed to self regulate, they are needed.

> >

> > Gw2's lootboxes arent that bad compared to other game companies (EA). However being the lesser of 2 evils doesn't mean they are ok, or that they wont cause gambling addictions for some people.

> >

> > Usually I hate the 'think of the children' argument but in the case of addictive vices, I think its a valid consideration. Blaming parents wont solve the issue of children getting addicted to gambling. There are afk parents who raise their children through games and credit cards however many many children spend their own personal money on these practices and thats not always something a parent can regulate. Especially in the age of online purchases where money can be spend in seconds, any hour of the day.

> >

> > While I personally have a hatred for lootboxes, I dont think they necessarily should be 100% removed from games. However I do think they should adhere to regulations that every other company who sells addictive products or experiences go through. Including being limited to 18+ only, and sometimes requiring a licence or being required to cut off customers they see who have a serious problem.

> >

> > Overall if regulations of loot boxes did happen, which I believe they will sooner or later, I cant predict whether it will be good or bad for gw2. On one hand, it would force the company to listen to concerns and try and please ALL its customers, and not just the whales that buy boxes, or when outrage is so widespread it reaches news media. Id much prefer that my concerns are listened to without having to spend upwards of 1k a month.

> > On the other hand, it would force anet to adopt a different money making practice which wont be as predatory but still might suck for consumers. Gem store prices would rise and I could see in game rewards being severely limited, to push gem store sales further.

>

> How many times have you opened a loot box and gotten nothing? When I gamble, if I lose, I get nothing. When I open a chest here, I'm guaranteed to get at least 4 things, 5 if the bonus slot opens, and I know one of them will be a Lion Statuette. If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

 

Gambling - Play games of chance for money; bet. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result. - oxford dictionary

Having the option to spend real life money to gain a specific result (usually a unque skin in gw2) with a risk of getting an undesired reward like a revive orb is gambling by the dictionary definition. Like I explained above, its not legally classed as gambling in most countries because you cant 'cash out'. That doesn't stop it being a random reward of which 90% of the items are considered less value than the box itself. Regardless of whether you get a reward or not, its still gambling.

 

Furthermore, loot boxes rely upon the very same psychological manipulations other gambling businesses use to keep their customers spending more and more money.

Especially the sunken cost fallacy, and incremental spending.

[Palador.2170]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> When did someone else's lack of self control become someone else's problem? Because trying to blame ANet for someone really wanting a throne, and throwing money at it is doing just that, especially on an item you don't need to progress.

 

When something, by its nature, lends itself to self-destructive behavior, that's when. Apparently. Because that's usually when the government steps in and tries to set laws to limit the risks. Drinking, smoking, and yes, even gambling. And this is gambling.

 

Also, while I can't blame ANet for how much someone wants the throne, I CAN and do blame them for making the BLC gamble the ONLY way to get it. Maybe we'll be able to get it with the statuettes some day, but there's no promise of that. Gambling is the only way, and time may be limited. I can also blame them for not posting the actual odds of getting any particular chance items out of the BLC, making it harder for people to make fully informed decisions.

 

Now, please let me be clear about something: I don't want the laws changed. I want the industry to get its act together and control itself (but apparently they too have poor impulse control). Because they haven't, what we're going to get is a bunch of gods-awful laws that do more harm than good. Once these laws get passed, it'll take years to sort out the mess and who knows what long term damage will be done? The gaming industry is bringing this down upon all of us.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"Palador.2170" said:

> > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

> >

> > You didn't buy a key, that's great. But others have. And if all you're after is Item A, then getting Item B doesn't mean you won. It means you've lost, and are now tempted to take another shot to get Item A.

> >

> > Right now, there's a throne in the BLCs that can only be gotten from the BLCs. So, we'll use that as an example. Now, let's say someone spends $50 on keys trying to get it. They buy their keys, and they do get a lot of stuff, but not the throne. For them, this feels like a loss. Maybe what they DID get will be worth more than $50 in gems, maybe it won't be, it's hard to say but it's not guaranteed to be. People CAN lose, and it's all based on luck. This is why it's gambling. If YOU lose or not doesn't change that.

> >

> > Also, that key you didn't pay for? Yes, there's a few ways to get them in-game, even without exchanging gold to gems. That's not done out of the kindness of ANet's heart, though. Like the old saying goes, "The first one's free". The chests themselves are basically an advertisement to remind you that the keys are there for sale if you want them. The free keys are like someone offering you a free cigarette in the hopes that you'll become addicted to them. Maybe you won't, but some people will.

> >

> > Now, to ANet's defense: Their loot boxes are hardly the worst out there, and they've taken steps towards moving away from that. They've not made the final jump, but I can see progress and I hope they're getting ready to do it willingly rather than wait until they're forced.

>

> ...and it is entirely up to you to spend or not. I don't have the throne, and yet, none of my eight toons are unable to play w/out it. So, if takes me a year, or if I never get it, it doesn't matter. Being in a hurry to get something, or wanting something now, isn't the fault of a gaming company for making that item available. It's a problem for the person that's not willing to wait, and for someone with the disposable income, it's not a problem at all, until or unless that item is required, such as the last Star Wars thing. That was shady, what we have here? Nope. The argument has been put forward in this thread that not having the indestructible tools is asinine, and so they are P2W. I'm thinking that the 30ish silver a week I spend on tools isn't costing me a dime, therefore isn't all that asinine. That poster believed that they were needed to play, but they're not. Neither is the throne in your example. When did someone else's lack of self control become someone else's problem? Because trying to blame ANet for someone really wanting a throne, and throwing money at it is doing just that, especially on an item you don't need to progress.

 

While p2w loot boxes increase the risk of developing a gambling additction, cosmetic only boxes definitly have a large possibility of creating an addiction too. CS GO, and overwatch for example have purely cosmetic loot boxes however you still see the same overspending and gambling addictions happening that you get in games like FIFA.

 

Just because the box is cosmetic only, doesnt mean it isnt a problem. Now I will agree that gw2's particular loot boxes arent half as bad as most, with the majority of items obtainable through other means, but because of the few items that are blc exclusive, they are still not OK when it comes to whether the game is psychologically manipulating its players.

 

Its reasonable for adults to be expected to choose whether to spend or not. However this game is 12+ and therefore has children playing who cant reasonably be expected to control their spending when faced with predatory practices that encourage spending the way loot boxes do. 16 year olds with part time jobs and their own income can also play. Some are also not mature enough to regulate their own spending and thats not their parents fault.

 

If video games want to keep loot box style monetization thats fine, but they should have to follow the same laws and regulations that other businesses do when selling a product that is psychologically proven to lead to reckless spending in many cases and gambling addictions in others.

[Warlord.9082]

> @"Donutdude.9582" said:

> I would be incredibly surprised if ArenaNet was ever stung by this loot box controversy. Every item in this game can be obtained without spending a single penny on gems and I think this is the sole reason why ArenaNet are safe. Other games offer keys to their loot boxes without any means of obtaining them in-game, making them more susceptible to the gambling accusation.

 

Whether or not that is the case is not relevant to whether or not this is gambling.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> The future...

>

> FTC... “Lootboxes are bad for kids. no more lootboxes.”

>

> Gamers... “Oh yeah, we won! Rejoice my sisters and bros!”

>

> Game Companies... “FTC ruling has killed off a source of income that helps pays the bills and employees, funds future development and maintenance... so here are your awesome new monthly membership options... $20 monthly basic membership, $30 monthly advanced membership, $40 monthly premiere membership, $50 monthly super VIP membership...”

>

> Game Companies part 2 “You can now purchase ALL items on the gem store (triple the original cost)! We also removed the gold to gems exchange function as a result of this awesome new QoL direct buy feature!”

>

> Gamers... “QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ“

>

>

>

 

i would happily pay a monthly fee if all items are achievable ingame. game is already to gem store centric.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Neutra.6857" said:

> I think a lot of the problem can be solved if the items you get from the box could be bought on the TP, rather then having them be account bound it would also solve the issue of people having the infinite version and then getting more of the single use items). It means that there is a way to get the item you want in game without paying (yes I know you can get keys by key farming but that is only once a week, map completion, and very rare drops from mobs).

 

How is turning gold to gems then buying the single use items on the gem store any dif then buying them from the trading post?

Same with black lion keys aswell.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > Loot boxes arent legally gambling in most countries. They are gambling by every other definition of the word. Especially when it comes down to the psychological manipulation they utilize. I believe the only reason they arent legally gambling in most countries is because laws regarding technology are so out of date.

> > Gaming commissions have been utterly incompetent at self regulation, totally ignoring their own guide lines in favor of profits. So while I dont like government regulation, I believe in this case, where the industry has totally failed to self regulate, they are needed.

> >

> > Gw2's lootboxes arent that bad compared to other game companies (EA). However being the lesser of 2 evils doesn't mean they are ok, or that they wont cause gambling addictions for some people.

> >

> > Usually I hate the 'think of the children' argument but in the case of addictive vices, I think its a valid consideration. Blaming parents wont solve the issue of children getting addicted to gambling. There are afk parents who raise their children through games and credit cards however many many children spend their own personal money on these practices and thats not always something a parent can regulate. Especially in the age of online purchases where money can be spend in seconds, any hour of the day.

> >

> > While I personally have a hatred for lootboxes, I dont think they necessarily should be 100% removed from games. However I do think they should adhere to regulations that every other company who sells addictive products or experiences go through. Including being limited to 18+ only, and sometimes requiring a licence or being required to cut off customers they see who have a serious problem.

> >

> > Overall if regulations of loot boxes did happen, which I believe they will sooner or later, I cant predict whether it will be good or bad for gw2. On one hand, it would force the company to listen to concerns and try and please ALL its customers, and not just the whales that buy boxes, or when outrage is so widespread it reaches news media. Id much prefer that my concerns are listened to without having to spend upwards of 1k a month.

> > On the other hand, it would force anet to adopt a different money making practice which wont be as predatory but still might suck for consumers. Gem store prices would rise and I could see in game rewards being severely limited, to push gem store sales further.

>

> How many times have you opened a loot box and gotten nothing? When I gamble, if I lose, I get nothing. When I open a chest here, I'm guaranteed to get at least 4 things, 5 if the bonus slot opens, and I know one of them will be a Lion Statuette. If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

 

If you buy a lottery ticket and lose you've still got a lovely ticket so by your definition playing the lottery isn't gambling. Same if I bet on a horse and it comes last, I've still got the betting slip, which is lovely, so it wasn't gambling. Heck, if the betting slips had randomised, collectible pictures of famous race horses then you'd practically be winning even if you lose! Imagine the value of a gold bordered Seabiscuit?!

 

This is what I meant about the legal definition of gambling as opposed to the dictionary definition. The legal definition of gambling is there to clearly state what gambling is and indirectly it also states what it isn't. It's there to close loopholes and periodically will need to be updated to cover new trends and technologies. It probably needs to be updated to cover loot boxes, specifically those that _can_ be bought with real money. It doesn't really matter if you personally haven't spent real money on them. Some do.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

It's honestly pretty naive to think that these won't be put under scrutiny. If Anet was smart they'd remove the keys from the gem store and integrate them more into the game proper as drops and find another source of revenue like battle passes or something.

[Neutra.6857]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Neutra.6857" said:

> > I think a lot of the problem can be solved if the items you get from the box could be bought on the TP, rather then having them be account bound it would also solve the issue of people having the infinite version and then getting more of the single use items). It means that there is a way to get the item you want in game without paying (yes I know you can get keys by key farming but that is only once a week, map completion, and very rare drops from mobs).

>

> How is turning gold to gems then buying the single use items on the gem store any dif then buying them from the trading post?

> Same with black lion keys aswell.

If they want to keep black lion chests and not sell them as single items, there is a pretty big difference, namely that those who do not want to buy black lion chests can get them from the tp and those who do not mind using black lion chests get a chance to sell things they will not use. Hell even if they do make it so you can buy single use items, so long as black lion chests exist being able to sell on tp allows those who want to get rid of items they will not use can sell them to those who do want them.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > > > The only marketing I've ever received is the Newsletter, which gives information on major releases.

> > > > > Anyone else received anything in their emails?

> > > >

> > > > Not yet, but this new sweepstake, is iirc, much like the recent joint promo competition mess, tied in with other companies, not just the ANET newsletter. Let's hope those companies act responsibly with the material they might choose to push out (if any at all) to players who sign/signed up.

> > > >

> > > > EDIT - Of course BL keys in a total GW2 sense can't be totally classed as a loot box gamble, being how we can loot keys and chests in game, get awarded with keys through story/levelling/map completion so there is nothing to loose in that regards. I guess one of the arguments in defence of BL keys/chests is the fact you always get a guaranteed return of the statuette and are guaranteed 3 sometimes 4 additional items all of which have a use in game, whether players want it or not.

> > >

> > > It's not the first time ArenaNet has offered sweepstakes/contests with joint partners (Alienware, For Fans By Fans, Razer, etc.). I've always been "opted-in", and still yet to receive anything but the Newsletter. I don't know why these same partners would not have sent promotional material before; or are you suggesting ArenaNet is suddenly going to sell the information now, when they have had the opportunity to do so ever since the first partnership?

> > >

> > > Besides, the Official Rules state:

> > >

> > > _By entering this Promotion, any personal information entrants submit will be disclosed to the Administrator and Sponsor and will be used *only* by ArenaNet and Administrator consistent with Sponsor’s privacy policy. Sponsor may use entrants’ personal information, including postal and email addresses, to contact entrants regarding Sponsor related goods and services and any other offers and/or promotions that they believe might be of interest to entrants._

> > >

> > > Who is the 'Sponsor'?

> > >

> > > _ArenaNet (“Sponsor”)_

> >

> > No didn't say or mean anything about what ANET might do with our details.. that is clearly defined and has always been.. so it's our choice.

> > But ANET do not control or censor anything that their partners may choose to send out.. if they choose to send anything.. which is what I already said.

> > As I stated one of the main issues with child gambling in the UK is the unrestricted advertising of such things. That isn't to say ANET or their partners will ever engage in such practices, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility in this day and age.

>

> And how would their partners, in this instance (or any other), get the information on where to send anything? As stated above, *only* ArenaNet is privy to that information.

 

I think you might want to read those rules maybe Inc... Sponsors may use entrants personal info including ….

We consent to the use of our info, but neither we or ANET control what can come through from it.. is all I am saying.

But please understand, I am not saying this will happen, only it is not unheard of or beyond the realm of possibility in this day and age that marketing material may contain additional carrots and hooks which children may fall fowl of or into. If it didn't happen, then why has there been attention drawn to child gambling and advertising of such materials these past few years, in the UK at least.

ANET are one sponsor in this, there are others making it a collaboration, much like the KFT mess a few months back. Thankfully though the companies involved in this sweepstake are a bit more street savy imo.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

And you might read who the 'Sponsor' is...I posted it; it's ArenaNet and solely ArenaNet.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Palador.2170" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

>

> You didn't buy a key, that's great. But others have. And if all you're after is Item A, then getting Item B doesn't mean you won. It means you've lost, and are now tempted to take another shot to get Item A.

>

> Right now, there's a throne in the BLCs that can only be gotten from the BLCs. So, we'll use that as an example. Now, let's say someone spends $50 on keys trying to get it. They buy their keys, and they do get a lot of stuff, but not the throne. For them, this feels like a loss. Maybe what they DID get will be worth more than $50 in gems, maybe it won't be, it's hard to say but it's not guaranteed to be. People CAN lose, and it's all based on luck. This is why it's gambling. If YOU lose or not doesn't change that.

>

> Also, that key you didn't pay for? Yes, there's a few ways to get them in-game, even without exchanging gold to gems. That's not done out of the kindness of ANet's heart, though. Like the old saying goes, "The first one's free". The chests themselves are basically an advertisement to remind you that the keys are there for sale if you want them. The free keys are like someone offering you a free cigarette in the hopes that you'll become addicted to them. Maybe you won't, but some people will.

>

> Now, to ANet's defense: Their loot boxes are hardly the worst out there, and they've taken steps towards moving away from that. They've not made the final jump, but I can see progress and I hope they're getting ready to do it willingly rather than wait until they're forced.

 

Actually.. the first one is free is kinda moot imo. That's why key farming is a thing, that's why you can reroll to your hearts content, that's why there is a gold to gems conversion.

Now of course you can argue it takes time to farm or time to accumulate wealth to convert.. but your essentially playing the game anyway so that argument kinda falls by the wayside as well.

You are correct though there are hooks attributed to the chest contents to entice players to try their luck. Though looking at the way the statuette vendor is updated with those hook items now, perhaps its now beginning to make chests/keys more like a currency exchange with benefits. If the throne is the toy of the month, there is a good chance it will be yesterdays toy being sold at the vendor next month.

But yes, when part of your target audience is younger players, more needs to be done to offset the enticement to gamble or do away with it entirely, by offering statuettes for direct sale instead and placing all items/new items within the vendor even if only for a short period of time on a rotation. I mean isn't that what essentially happens now with most of the items and the BL Weapons (claim tickets)

[Kerynean.3624]

I'd say yes BLC are a loot box by definition, definitely - but they're a well done loot box in their current state, especially now with the guaranteed drops of redeemable statues. I actually left GW2 mad with it's previous no-preview/no guarentee's model for about two years before coming back - seeing this improvement, especially being able to preview what the drops were was definitely a step in the right direction. The fact that everything is largely cosmetic (boosts enter a sort of grey area but then again the amount of boosts I've got in my bank from just doing story junk and birthdays is obscene so that too becomes kind of irrelevant) is the difference between what I think constitutes a 'good' loot box and a bad one (i.e. Pay to win loot boxes).

 

There's also the fact you can buy keys for in-game currency if you feel like converting your gold over which also redeems the whole loot-box thing _to a degree_ but ultimately unless you're a market mogul or something, it's kind of a dumb move. I feel like this system of in-game currency to premium currency for keys could be BLC's loot box saving grace but with the way gold rates are and the drop rate % of keys ... well all I can say is I don't feel the future of them is AS safe in the face of possible future legislation as it could be if they for example, upped the drop rate of keys just from regular activity. Destiny 2 for example drops a premium engram which drops random premium items every time you level up a maxed character. Completely different games I know, and with GW2's loot system/trade post it's entirely impractical, but maybe one every 30 days? Or a bunch of levels? What I'd give for a weekly guaranteed keydrop or something ...

 

I mean when you have people trying to dig up ways to farm keys and it's constantly getting nerfed despite the insane amount of effort to get said keys ... maybe it's time to have a look at your drop rate, idk.

[Daishi.6027]

Statuette system is all I needed for this to no longer feel like gambling. Being able to get exactly what you want after a certain price point (or a chance to RNG get it earlier) is exactly what the rest of the industry needs to fall in line with.

 

All I have to do is ask if 7 keys for every 10 USD (while being Canadian) is worth whatever I'm going for. I think these numbers are a little inflated; like having to pay over 70 bucks for a guarantee for a tonic is a bit absurd. However a suggestion I have to counteract this and have the current value prices remain is to be able to trade in gemstore items, including ones you get from in game sources; into Statuettes.

 

This incentives players in many ways, including just logging in for daily; which is something MMO's really want to get people to do. It also means that patient long term loyal players are rewarded, while still having the original quick system at a higher price point for those who want something immediately presuming their RNG isn't favorable.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > The future...

> >

> > FTC... “Lootboxes are bad for kids. no more lootboxes.”

> >

> > Gamers... “Oh yeah, we won! Rejoice my sisters and bros!”

> >

> > Game Companies... “FTC ruling has killed off a source of income that helps pays the bills and employees, funds future development and maintenance... so here are your awesome new monthly membership options... $20 monthly basic membership, $30 monthly advanced membership, $40 monthly premiere membership, $50 monthly super VIP membership...”

> >

> > Game Companies part 2 “You can now purchase ALL items on the gem store (triple the original cost)! We also removed the gold to gems exchange function as a result of this awesome new QoL direct buy feature!”

> >

> > Gamers... “QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ“

> >

> >

> >

>

> i would happily pay a monthly fee if all items are achievable ingame. game is already to gem store centric.

 

I don’t mind paying a monthly fee either, but that’s besides the points being made.

 

Our game is gem store centric because that’s how they generate revenue on the B2P model.

 

You can already get almost every item *directly, except a few select rng account bound skins from bl chests, by exchanging your in-game gold for gems... All players have been given a path to earn all items for FREE simply by playing the game and using the main game currency.

 

Gamers need to be careful what they wish for, especially when companies start to get regulated by the government.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > The future...

> > >

> > > FTC... “Lootboxes are bad for kids. no more lootboxes.”

> > >

> > > Gamers... “Oh yeah, we won! Rejoice my sisters and bros!”

> > >

> > > Game Companies... “FTC ruling has killed off a source of income that helps pays the bills and employees, funds future development and maintenance... so here are your awesome new monthly membership options... $20 monthly basic membership, $30 monthly advanced membership, $40 monthly premiere membership, $50 monthly super VIP membership...”

> > >

> > > Game Companies part 2 “You can now purchase ALL items on the gem store (triple the original cost)! We also removed the gold to gems exchange function as a result of this awesome new QoL direct buy feature!”

> > >

> > > Gamers... “QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ“

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > i would happily pay a monthly fee if all items are achievable ingame. game is already to gem store centric.

>

> I don’t mind paying a monthly fee either, but that’s besides the points being made.

>

> Our game is gem store centric because that’s how they generate revenue on the B2P model.

>

> You can already get almost every item *directly, except a few select rng account bound skins from bl chests, by exchanging your in-game gold for gems... All players have been given a path to earn all items for FREE simply by playing the game and using the main game currency.

>

> Gamers need to be careful what they wish for, especially when companies start to get regulated by the government.

 

with "available ingame" i meant, i have to achieve something other then farming gold to obtain it.

i know why it is how it is. im just stating that for me as a player the current system is not fun at all. personal opinion obviously.

you point, which is true only states that after every change there will be "outrage", but that doesn´t mean the EVERYONE would be unhappy.

i get your point, but its a bit to simplified to not comment on it (no offense)

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > Loot boxes arent legally gambling in most countries. They are gambling by every other definition of the word. Especially when it comes down to the psychological manipulation they utilize. I believe the only reason they arent legally gambling in most countries is because laws regarding technology are so out of date.

> > > Gaming commissions have been utterly incompetent at self regulation, totally ignoring their own guide lines in favor of profits. So while I dont like government regulation, I believe in this case, where the industry has totally failed to self regulate, they are needed.

> > >

> > > Gw2's lootboxes arent that bad compared to other game companies (EA). However being the lesser of 2 evils doesn't mean they are ok, or that they wont cause gambling addictions for some people.

> > >

> > > Usually I hate the 'think of the children' argument but in the case of addictive vices, I think its a valid consideration. Blaming parents wont solve the issue of children getting addicted to gambling. There are afk parents who raise their children through games and credit cards however many many children spend their own personal money on these practices and thats not always something a parent can regulate. Especially in the age of online purchases where money can be spend in seconds, any hour of the day.

> > >

> > > While I personally have a hatred for lootboxes, I dont think they necessarily should be 100% removed from games. However I do think they should adhere to regulations that every other company who sells addictive products or experiences go through. Including being limited to 18+ only, and sometimes requiring a licence or being required to cut off customers they see who have a serious problem.

> > >

> > > Overall if regulations of loot boxes did happen, which I believe they will sooner or later, I cant predict whether it will be good or bad for gw2. On one hand, it would force the company to listen to concerns and try and please ALL its customers, and not just the whales that buy boxes, or when outrage is so widespread it reaches news media. Id much prefer that my concerns are listened to without having to spend upwards of 1k a month.

> > > On the other hand, it would force anet to adopt a different money making practice which wont be as predatory but still might suck for consumers. Gem store prices would rise and I could see in game rewards being severely limited, to push gem store sales further.

> >

> > How many times have you opened a loot box and gotten nothing? When I gamble, if I lose, I get nothing. When I open a chest here, I'm guaranteed to get at least 4 things, 5 if the bonus slot opens, and I know one of them will be a Lion Statuette. If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

>

> If you buy a lottery ticket and lose you've still got a lovely ticket so by your definition playing the lottery isn't gambling. Same if I bet on a horse and it comes last, I've still got the betting slip, which is lovely, so it wasn't gambling. Heck, if the betting slips had randomised, collectible pictures of famous race horses then you'd practically be winning even if you lose! Imagine the value of a gold bordered Seabiscuit?!

>

> This is what I meant about the legal definition of gambling as opposed to the dictionary definition. The legal definition of gambling is there to clearly state what gambling is and indirectly it also states what it isn't. It's there to close loopholes and periodically will need to be updated to cover new trends and technologies. It probably needs to be updated to cover loot boxes, specifically those that _can_ be bought with real money. It doesn't really matter if you personally haven't spent real money on them. Some do.

 

Just, wow. I've read some real doozies in support of "but big bad businesses don't deserve any money after a game sale", but this one, I don't know, man, I don't know.

 

IF I bet on the ponies, and I actually haven't, I did bet on some greyhound racing a few decades back, but IF I did, and lost, I'd have nothing of value to show for that money. When one opens the chests here, they are guaranteed a Statue. How much do those sell for, or do they, I haven't really looked to know, just like I couldn't tell you how much the keys are, since I get mine for free. There is also a random bag that rotates out periodically? Then there are 2 more items, and possibly 3. It looks like your analogy is falling flat, since there are items of value in every chest you open. You see, that "items of value" makes all the difference in the world, as compared to your analogy.

 

I guess you're running out of stuff though, when you have to go this ridiculous to support your case? There's a link in my first post in this thread to what's in store for all of us if legislation is passed. Perhaps you should peruse that thread, it won't take you out of this forum, someone from Belgium has already found a major downside to "hooray, loot boxes are illegal". You think you're wallet's hurting now?

[Pifil.5193]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > Loot boxes arent legally gambling in most countries. They are gambling by every other definition of the word. Especially when it comes down to the psychological manipulation they utilize. I believe the only reason they arent legally gambling in most countries is because laws regarding technology are so out of date.

> > > > Gaming commissions have been utterly incompetent at self regulation, totally ignoring their own guide lines in favor of profits. So while I dont like government regulation, I believe in this case, where the industry has totally failed to self regulate, they are needed.

> > > >

> > > > Gw2's lootboxes arent that bad compared to other game companies (EA). However being the lesser of 2 evils doesn't mean they are ok, or that they wont cause gambling addictions for some people.

> > > >

> > > > Usually I hate the 'think of the children' argument but in the case of addictive vices, I think its a valid consideration. Blaming parents wont solve the issue of children getting addicted to gambling. There are afk parents who raise their children through games and credit cards however many many children spend their own personal money on these practices and thats not always something a parent can regulate. Especially in the age of online purchases where money can be spend in seconds, any hour of the day.

> > > >

> > > > While I personally have a hatred for lootboxes, I dont think they necessarily should be 100% removed from games. However I do think they should adhere to regulations that every other company who sells addictive products or experiences go through. Including being limited to 18+ only, and sometimes requiring a licence or being required to cut off customers they see who have a serious problem.

> > > >

> > > > Overall if regulations of loot boxes did happen, which I believe they will sooner or later, I cant predict whether it will be good or bad for gw2. On one hand, it would force the company to listen to concerns and try and please ALL its customers, and not just the whales that buy boxes, or when outrage is so widespread it reaches news media. Id much prefer that my concerns are listened to without having to spend upwards of 1k a month.

> > > > On the other hand, it would force anet to adopt a different money making practice which wont be as predatory but still might suck for consumers. Gem store prices would rise and I could see in game rewards being severely limited, to push gem store sales further.

> > >

> > > How many times have you opened a loot box and gotten nothing? When I gamble, if I lose, I get nothing. When I open a chest here, I'm guaranteed to get at least 4 things, 5 if the bonus slot opens, and I know one of them will be a Lion Statuette. If I'm opening these chests looking for a specific item, even if that item isn't there, I still get something. How is that gambling? No matter what, I'm coming out ahead, especially since I didn't buy a key. From where I'm sitting, that's more like getting a paycheck, than blowing a paycheck "gambling".

> >

> > If you buy a lottery ticket and lose you've still got a lovely ticket so by your definition playing the lottery isn't gambling. Same if I bet on a horse and it comes last, I've still got the betting slip, which is lovely, so it wasn't gambling. Heck, if the betting slips had randomised, collectible pictures of famous race horses then you'd practically be winning even if you lose! Imagine the value of a gold bordered Seabiscuit?!

> >

> > This is what I meant about the legal definition of gambling as opposed to the dictionary definition. The legal definition of gambling is there to clearly state what gambling is and indirectly it also states what it isn't. It's there to close loopholes and periodically will need to be updated to cover new trends and technologies. It probably needs to be updated to cover loot boxes, specifically those that _can_ be bought with real money. It doesn't really matter if you personally haven't spent real money on them. Some do.

>

> Just, wow. I've read some real doozies in support of "but big bad businesses don't deserve any money after a game sale", but this one, I don't know, man, I don't know.

 

I've put easily a thousand euro into this game through the gemstore so you're wrong there.

 

> IF I bet on the ponies, and I actually haven't, I did bet on some greyhound racing a few decades back, but IF I did, and lost, I'd have nothing of value to show for that money. When one opens the chests here, they are guaranteed a Statue. How much do those sell for, or do they, I haven't really looked to know, just like I couldn't tell you how much the keys are, since I get mine for free. There is also a random bag that rotates out periodically? Then there are 2 more items, and possibly 3. It looks like your analogy is falling flat, since there are items of value in every chest you open. You see, that "items of value" makes all the difference in the world, as compared to your analogy.

 

A statue is 1g a single key costs about €1.50.

 

> I guess you're running out of stuff though, when you have to go this ridiculous to support your case?

 

Nope, you're still missing the point in a fantastic fashion.

[Lanhelin.3480]

> @"Adoninilol.3180" said:

> > @"Lanhelin.3480" said:

> > No, the blc would be a loot-box if it was sold directly and opened without a key. But chests aren't sold, only keys are and these do what they're advertised - they open chests and nothing else.

> > Buying a chest = buying a pig in a poke.

> > Buying a key = getting a key.

> >

> >

>

> Lol it's still a loot box because they sell the item to open the boxes, which mind you are quite abundant and yet keys are not.

>

> It's the same exact thing as the RNG mount skin boxes, this can be coupled with the games other pay to win schemes such as unlimited tools, and the salvagers.

>

> Feel free to quote me and argue that it's not pay to win because it's not required to play. But it's a serious hinder to not have these items, and play this game in regularly to the point that most players buy them because otherwise, it makes for an asinine game experience.

 

While I'd want to agree that the directly sold rng-skin-pack meets certain conditions to be a loot-box (but I'm not sure anymore if it really does), the blc is no loot-box. According to the [belgian definition](https://www.koengeens.be/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving "belgian definition") from april 2018 what loot-boxes are, the blc doesn't meet this definition. The most important difference is, that the main gameplay element of all the games like CS:GO, Overwatch or Fifa, where the Publishers had or have to remove the loot-boxes in Belgium, are short-timed, competitive matches where opening loot-boxes promised advantages and to help to win. All competitive modes in GW2 like PvP, WvW and even Raids are free of blc item usage that would give a significant advantage to win against other players or NPCs. Furthermore most of blc items are bta so not sellable and only usable in restricted areas/game modes like open world, where players never can "win the game", only achieve this or that.

[Valeria Mudgarden.3054]

yes it's gambling/loot boxes. pure and simple. any attempts to defend it, is frivolous.

I found it disgusting that i had more BLACK LION CHESTS drop for me than exotics while farming the lab this year.

I even laughed out loud when i had the "old pillowcase" drop for me, on an account/character that has the devoted tag, been playing since the early access...

when that happened, my lab farm ended. I didn't keep count but i've had keys drop for me as well during this year's lab farm.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

>

> IF I bet on the ponies, and I actually haven't, I did bet on some greyhound racing a few decades back, but IF I did, and lost, I'd have nothing of value to show for that money. When one opens the chests here, they are guaranteed a Statue. How much do those sell for, or do they, I haven't really looked to know, just like I couldn't tell you how much the keys are, since I get mine for free. There is also a random bag that rotates out periodically? Then there are 2 more items, and possibly 3. It looks like your analogy is falling flat, since there are items of value in every chest you open. You see, that "items of value" makes all the difference in the world, as compared to your analogy.

 

Keys cost 125 gems ($1.56 US) for 1; 450 gems ($5.62 US) for 5; or 2100 gems ($26.25 US) for 25. Those numbers ignore that one cannot purchase gems in such increments with cash, though one can with gold.

 

Value is subjective when one is dealing with in-game, pixelated rewards. The truth is that none of the items dropped from chests has any value at all in the real-world sense. It's all just pixelated nothing. Value is solely in the eye of the receiver. So, for you, you always get value because you attribute some value to the items you receive. Someone solely interested in a particular gewgaw may perceive no value in any of the other stuff. To them, the stuff other than the thing they want may not even be seen as a consolation prize. Given that different people will attribute different value to things, the argument that every loot box drop holds value does not hold water.

 

Statuettes put a bottom-line real-word price on many (but not all) chest items. However, look at the numbers. A Black Lion Claim ticket, which can get you one black lion weapon skin (assuming the skins are in their one-ticket-per-skin phase) requires 50 Statuettes. That would mean your worst case scenario is that you need to open 50 BL Chests to get one skin. In real dollars, that would cost $52.50. If you want a skin that is at the 5 claim ticket price, the cost would be $$262.50. That's pretty pricey for a virtual gewgaw.

 

Sure, you can get extra Statuettes as one of the random drops. Maybe you can get a rare gewgaw that you can sell, then buy the skin on the TP. Or, in some cases, you may get a rare drop straight up. The idea that one may get lucky is the enticement angle in the loot box system.