Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible. > > So if Anet stripped **all rewards** from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game? No, but you will have people that will raid, get their Armor then leave. Then you will have people who will raid get their Armor and stay, that’s all. I would say the latter likes raiding more and enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zencow.3651" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Debatable, I personally completely disagree with the spvp legendary armor but the objective of that one is clear: get people to play the mode. > > > Well no, it was meant to be so main sPvPers had a way to access the same levels of PvE gear so they weren't disconnected from the rest of the community. Ascended glory shards were hard to get and were a reflection of skill back pips could also be lost. PvErs pvping solely because it's an easy way to get legendary armor was a side-effect that came with making the rewards farmable and negatively introduced players who really don't care whether they win or lost into the game mode. > > > > I disagree, spvp players have access to gear which is far beyond what most pve players have access to, since the vast majority of pve players do not raid. On top of which spvp costs nearly no gold or resource investment, so access to pve gear from rewards gained in spvp is quite easy. I'm fine with spvp players having access to legendary armor, it still does not make sense. > > > > The major reason to add useless (to the mode) legendary armor to spvp was to keep the mode semi active. Similar to how season 5 handed out 1 set of free ascended armor in spvp (from the minimal effort required perspective). > > > > As with all things (raids too), the price is coming due. People are finishing their legendary armor spvp sets, finishing their 1st, 2nd, 3rd or x-th raid set and the interest is waning. Having something like this happen on a broad scale (by introducing a to easy to acquire "final" gear set for the vast majority of pve players) could be quite a blow to the game or would need to be designed around properly. Hence why I believe an alternative pve legendary set would be heavily time gated and/or expensive. > > Most of the components are the same, except the provisionor tokens. The precursor pieces will end up costing some money too potentially with the crafting marks system. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor > > You still need the T6, T5, T4, T5 mats as well, same with the cube of stabilized energy. > > The PvP Armor also takes a minimal of 3 leagues for the league tickets. This takes a lot of time and effort to complete, speaking as someone who has created a set of PvP Legendary Armor and the effort it takes is nothing to scoff at, especially if you are going for the Mistforged Glorious Hero Armor. > > Edit: Mistforged costs additional ascended shards, crafting marks and ectos as well has having unlocked the ardent set and having a PvP rank of 100. True, I didn't say spvp legendary armor was free, I said it is being handed out in a game mode for which it has 0 use and requires very little skill (if at all). As of right now: Full legendary light spvp armor cost (Ardent Glorious Light): 1,814 gold Full legendary light perfect envoy armor: 1,947 gold That is not factoring for ANY: - expenses or crafting of mystic clovers - gearing of characters - buff food - time gates like provisioner tokens or chack eggs - collections required (for the pve precursor) - practice or training for raids to actually clear wing 1-4 bosses - etc. The spvp legendary has 1 thing: a 3 season time gate. Nearly no expenses while acquiring materials, requires only time commitment and no skill, gets a ton of the required materials in form of spvp reward chests (mystic clovers for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible. > > > > So if Anet stripped **all rewards** from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game? > > No, but you will have people that will raid, get their Armor then leave. Then you will have people who will raid get their Armor and stay, that’s all. I would say the latter likes raiding more and enjoy it. And the same can be said about everything else in the game. Very few people will do things just for the fun of it after the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"zencow.3651" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > Debatable, I personally completely disagree with the spvp legendary armor but the objective of that one is clear: get people to play the mode. > > > > Well no, it was meant to be so main sPvPers had a way to access the same levels of PvE gear so they weren't disconnected from the rest of the community. Ascended glory shards were hard to get and were a reflection of skill back pips could also be lost. PvErs pvping solely because it's an easy way to get legendary armor was a side-effect that came with making the rewards farmable and negatively introduced players who really don't care whether they win or lost into the game mode. > > > > > > I disagree, spvp players have access to gear which is far beyond what most pve players have access to, since the vast majority of pve players do not raid. On top of which spvp costs nearly no gold or resource investment, so access to pve gear from rewards gained in spvp is quite easy. I'm fine with spvp players having access to legendary armor, it still does not make sense. > > > > > > The major reason to add useless (to the mode) legendary armor to spvp was to keep the mode semi active. Similar to how season 5 handed out 1 set of free ascended armor in spvp (from the minimal effort required perspective). > > > > > > As with all things (raids too), the price is coming due. People are finishing their legendary armor spvp sets, finishing their 1st, 2nd, 3rd or x-th raid set and the interest is waning. Having something like this happen on a broad scale (by introducing a to easy to acquire "final" gear set for the vast majority of pve players) could be quite a blow to the game or would need to be designed around properly. Hence why I believe an alternative pve legendary set would be heavily time gated and/or expensive. > > > > Most of the components are the same, except the provisionor tokens. The precursor pieces will end up costing some money too potentially with the crafting marks system. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor > > > > You still need the T6, T5, T4, T5 mats as well, same with the cube of stabilized energy. > > > > The PvP Armor also takes a minimal of 3 leagues for the league tickets. This takes a lot of time and effort to complete, speaking as someone who has created a set of PvP Legendary Armor and the effort it takes is nothing to scoff at, especially if you are going for the Mistforged Glorious Hero Armor. > > > > Edit: Mistforged costs additional ascended shards, crafting marks and ectos as well has having unlocked the ardent set and having a PvP rank of 100. > > True, I didn't say spvp legendary armor was free, I said it is being handed out in a game mode for which it has 0 use and requires very little skill (if at all). > > As of right now: > Full legendary light spvp armor cost (Ardent Glorious Light): 1,814 gold > Full legendary light perfect envoy armor: 1,947 gold > > That is not factoring for ANY: > - expenses or crafting of mystic clovers > - gearing of characters > - buff food > - time gates like provisioner tokens or chack eggs > - collections required (for the pve precursor) > - practice or training for raids to actually clear wing 1-4 bosses > - etc. > > The spvp legendary has 1 thing: a 3 season time gate. Nearly no expenses while acquiring materials, requires only time commitment and no skill, gets a ton of the required materials in form of spvp reward chests (mystic clovers for example). Yeah skill is not required for the Armor, in theory you could lose your way to the Armor, it would be an agonizingly slow grind of pure death, but it’s not impossible. What skill does do in PvP is it gets you to your goal much faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > I'd rather they not further reduce the incentives to raid by introducing a far more accessible competitor. > > > Unfortunately it’s too late for that, since the Legendary WvW and PvP already compete against the raid armor. > > WvW and PvP are entirely different formats, and their armor is basically an ugly consolation reward without even proper art assets gated behind massive timegates on top of cost. Fractals directly compete with raids. They use the same builds more or less, with the similar dominant specs and they're logistically far easier to manage so if fractals gave legendary armor, unless it was some hideous bland set of armor with just stat swapping, it would seriously drain from the raiding pool. Fractal rewards are more than fine as is. If anything, raiding needs massively improved monetary rewards to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > I'd rather they not further reduce the incentives to raid by introducing a far more accessible competitor. > > > > > Unfortunately it’s too late for that, since the Legendary WvW and PvP already compete against the raid armor. > > > > > > WvW and PvP are entirely different formats, and their armor is basically an ugly consolation reward without even proper art assets gated behind massive timegates on top of cost. > > Fractals directly compete with raids. They use the same builds more or less, with the similar dominant specs and they're logistically far easier to manage so if fractals gave legendary armor, unless it was some hideous bland set of armor with just stat swapping, it would seriously drain from the raiding pool. > > Fractal rewards are more than fine as is. If anything, raiding needs massively improved monetary rewards to begin with. Ok, but what does that say about raiding, if it’s threatened by Legendary Fractal Armor. Also ugly is an opinion as well as personal taste. I like the Mistforged Glorious Set over Envoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible. > > > > > > So if Anet stripped **all rewards** from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game? > > > > No, but you will have people that will raid, get their Armor then leave. Then you will have people who will raid get their Armor and stay, that’s all. I would say the latter likes raiding more and enjoy it. > > And the same can be said about everything else in the game. Very few people will do things just for the fun of it after the first time. So the people who have the Armor set or multiple sets, are still raiding for what purpose? It’s not like you make a lot of gold off of Raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Cutter.9376 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Zenith.7301" said: > I'd rather they not further reduce the incentives to raid by introducing a far more accessible competitor. If legendary armor is the only thing getting people to raid (especially people who didn't _want_ to raid in the first place, but have no alternative for legendary armor in the game mode they prefer), then raids have failed as a game mode. There is literally no reason you can't craft legendary armor the way you craft legendary weapons, other than Anet trying to strongarm people into doing content they specifically didn't intend to be accessible to most players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Not necessary to be legendary armor. Would be happy if its just some intricated Golden Armor Skins crafted using golden fractal relics (I need a sink for these :tongue:). With the same concept as crafting Requiem skins. No harm having more rewards for any content imo :smiley:. What could possibly happen? Aside from rants about Locking exclusive rewards behind T4 fractals wall... :bleep_bloop: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Eramonster.2718" said: > Would be happy if its just some intricated Golden Armor Skins crafted using golden fractal relics I like this idea better. I'd rather each mode have its own set of unique rewards rather than have an alternative option for the same thing in every mode. Unfortunately, there's a limit to the amount of skins ANet can offer. They'll never sate our lust for more, for shinier, for glowier, for skimpier (for less skimpy), and so on. I'm all in favor of more; I just don't think any gaming studio can be expected to deliver enough 'more'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible. > > So if Anet stripped **all rewards** from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game? People do like to be rewarded, that's true. But is there any reason for them to be rewarded specifically for raids, over a different type of content? Is pushing people towards content they don't like instead of allowing them to get rewards in a mode they prefer healthy for the game? In realiy, from the developer's point of view, there should be no difference whatsoever in which content players are going to obtain their legendary armor, as long as doing so will keep them engaged for about the same time. So, if a fractal legendary armor will cause some people to move from raids to fractals, it's not a problem at all. In fact, it can be beneficial, because players tend to stay longer in the game if they enjoy the content more. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. You can easily lock it behind the legendary mastery, which would require buying an expac. Or, you know, use the provisioner tokens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > People do like to be rewarded, that's true. But is there any reason for them to be rewarded specifically for **any type of content**? Revised the question for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > People do like to be rewarded, that's true. But is there any reason for them to be rewarded specifically for **any type of content**? > > Revised the question for you. Depends on the game. Most of them ae doing perfectly fine with no rewards whatsoever. MMOs though unfortunately do have an expectation that players are going to get rewarded for playing, and it would be too hard to change that now. So yeah, there is a reason for players to be rewarded for playing any type of content. _Specific_ content, however... Remember, from the developer's point of view it doesn't matter if player plays content A or content B, as long as they play and use the gemshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > People do like to be rewarded, that's true. But is there any reason for them to be rewarded specifically for **any type of content**? > > > > Revised the question for you. > Depends on the game. Most of them ae doing perfectly fine with no rewards whatsoever. MMOs though unfortunately do have an expectation that players are going to get rewarded for playing, and it would be too hard to change that now. So yeah, there is a reason for players to be rewarded for playing any type of content. _Specific_ content, however... > **Remember, from the developer's point of view it doesn't matter if player plays content A or content B, as long as they play and use the gemshop.** Not quite true. It absolutely matters in both reward and implementation. For example: handing out a free legendary to each active account for simply loging in on a specific day would most certainly drive login rates through the roof. It would also not last long and would crash the market for a set period of time. How does this relate to pve legendary armor? Simple, make legendary armor to easily available to the vast majority of the player base in the most played game mode, and there will be issues down the road. Raid legendary armor was always implemented with the idea that not the entire player base will get it. The addition of spvp and wvw legendary armor later was likely due to the effect of legendary armor on the market and games economy being smaller than expected. A huge issue is that the cost disparity between legendary armor and ascended weapons is not as big as with weapons. Armor you get once and at a fraction of the cost compared to upgrading ascended to legendary weapons (and given how weapons are balanced, specific weapons work with specific builds). Weapons cost almost as much as an entire armor set while the armor set works for all builds. Those are unfortunately economic factors which developers have to design around. Clearly visible in the Sigil/Rune change which was changed mostly to accommodate new realities in which legendary items have Sigil/Rune swapping capabilities (and to promote upgrade extractors and BLSK). Hence why I said: tie it to Fractal God for pve (or a lower tier of the title, maybe rank 2 or 3). The length of acquiring this is longer than spvp and wvw but not impossible, while being good enough allows for a faster completion by doing CMs both encouraging people to improve their game play as well as promote fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > **Remember, from the developer's point of view it doesn't matter if player plays content A or content B, as long as they play and use the gemshop.** > > Not quite true. It absolutely matters in both reward and implementation. > > For example: > handing out a free legendary to each active account for simply loging in on a specific day would most certainly drive login rates through the roof. It would also not last long and would crash the market for a set period of time. We're not talking about free legendary though. We're talking about something that would keep the player similarily engaged and playing for at least the same amount of time. If a player spends 3 months of _dedicated_ play and a ton of gold/mats on it, it doesn't really matter which mode they were playing - fractals or raids. > How does this relate to pve legendary armor? > Simple, make legendary armor to easily available to the vast majority of the player base in the most played game mode, and there will be issues down the road. Fractals are hardly a "most played game mode". Even if they are more popular than raids. > Raid legendary armor was always implemented with the idea that not the entire player base will get it. Which of course means its player retain value was lost on most players. Which means you now have to give something for them as well. > The addition of spvp and wvw legendary armor later was likely due to the effect of legendary armor on the market and games economy being smaller than expected. Considering it was aimed at a small subset of players in the first place, you could hardly expect it to have any major impact. (and by "aimed at smal subset" i don't mean "not the entire player base will get it", but rather "only a small subset will ever consider pursuing it"). More likely it was added for the reason i mentioned above - envoy armor doing absolutely nothing to retain a huge majority of players, so other means are needed. > A huge issue is that the cost disparity between legendary armor and ascended weapons is not as big as with weapons. Armor you get once and at a fraction of the cost compared to upgrading ascended to legendary weapons (and given how weapons are balanced, specific weapons work with specific builds). Weapons cost almost as much as an entire armor set while the armor set works for all builds. Nah, the main issue is that _everyone_ can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so. Gen 1 weapons were a longterm goal for a whole game population, but armor sets are goals for only small subsets of it. That's why, even if the weapons cost more, there are (and will be) far more of people with them than it is for armor. Yes, the price difference will have an impact, but it's only going to get accerbated even more by the acquisition disparity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > **Remember, from the developer's point of view it doesn't matter if player plays content A or content B, as long as they play and use the gemshop.** > > > > Not quite true. It absolutely matters in both reward and implementation. > > > > For example: > > handing out a free legendary to each active account for simply loging in on a specific day would most certainly drive login rates through the roof. It would also not last long and would crash the market for a set period of time. > We're not talking about free legendary though. We're talking about something that would keep the player similarily engaged and playing for at least the same amount of time. And I'm talking about the medium and longterm effects which an improper implementation would have. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > If a player spends 3 months of _dedicated_ play and a ton of gold/mats on it, it doesn't really matter which mode they were playing - fractals or raids. > > > How does this relate to pve legendary armor? Because opening the problems that raid legendary armor has caused to an even bigger chunk of the player base is a bad idea. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Simple, make legendary armor to easily available to the vast majority of the player base in the most played game mode, and there will be issues down the road. > Fractals are hardly a "most played game mode". Even if they are more popular than raids. > I was talking about pve, pvp and WvW obviously since the arguments brought forth are for a similar difficulty and time commitment legendary for pve as the other modes. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Raid legendary armor was always implemented with the idea that not the entire player base will get it. > Which of course means its player retain value was lost on most players. Which means you now have to give something for them as well. That is a different issue but clearly identifies what problem a pve legendary armor would face down the road. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > A huge issue is that the cost disparity between legendary armor and ascended weapons is not as big as with weapons. Armor you get once and at a fraction of the cost compared to upgrading ascended to legendary weapons (and given how weapons are balanced, specific weapons work with specific builds). Weapons cost almost as much as an entire armor set while the armor set works for all builds. > Nah, the main issue is that _everyone_ can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so. > Gen 1 legendary have their very own issues, let's not get those involved as well. Suffice to say, any further legendary were proofed against dome of the issues no matter how they were acquired. Any implementation of armor would obviously follow the same rules, aka personal involvement AND high cost. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > Gen 1 weapons were a longterm goal for a whole game population, but armor sets are goals for only small subsets of it. That's why, even if the weapons cost more, there are (and will be) far more of people with them than it is for armor. Yes, the price difference will have an impact, but it's only going to get accerbated even more by the acquisition disparity. > True and also due to how Gen 1 legendary are available. If we were to take Gen 2 legendary as a base value of 2k gold per legendary (and most other legendary since). Then account for a way bigger part of the player population being made able to acquire legendary armor without a proper time sink or time gate. Expect the price for a general pve legendary armor to be tremendous. This we are back at my suggestion: Fractal legendary armor to keep it pve related, limit the availability, provide a time gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > Nah, the main issue is that _everyone_ can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so. > I don't think the justification is really true. Players that are willing to spend years working towards legendary equipment always have the option of buying raid kills. I've ran the math before on these forums, and if a player is willing to do a weekly clear of escort, spirit woods, and twisted castle, they can buy all other kills they need and get legendary armor in less than a year while only doubling the cost. We can debate whether or not those 3 events are really 'raiding', but I think from a practical standpoint of the type of players your talking about, they are not, i.e. virtually no chance of failure, very low expectations, little to no communication. I think its more accurate to say, there is wide spread unawareness or misinformation about buying raid kills. Players see the requirement of 150 li, and like 100 gold for a clear of a tough boss and they blindly assuming that getting legendary armor without really raiding would be over 15000 gold. In reality, you only really need to buy around 15 kills, and then grind the rest out at 3 per week. Either way, it has the same effect your arguing for, many players never even consider trying to get legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Nah, the main issue is that _everyone_ can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so. > > > > I don't think the justification is really true. Players that are willing to spend years working towards legendary equipment always have the option of buying raid kills. No. _People that can afford to buy a legendary out of their pocket money because they're in a hurry_ have option of buying raid kills. Those that pursue legendary for extended amount of time by just playing usually don't have that option. > I've ran the math before on these forums, and if a player is willing to do a weekly clear of escort, spirit woods, and twisted castle, they can buy all other kills they need and get legendary armor in less than a year while only doubling the cost. Yes, but they'd stil have to raid. Also, they'd need to get past the initial collection gate, which is unrealistic for most of the players. That's a very big threshold to pass. On the other side, you can drop a gen1 precursor even by accident, and do most of the tier1 legendary weapon collections without even trying. The real threshold is not activity or type of content played, but merely gathering necessary mats. _Common_ mats, at that. That's even more true of gen 2.5 weapons, as they don't even have the collections to worry about. Basically, with gen 2.5, at some point you decide to get yourself a legendary weapon, look in your bank, and realize that you are already well on your way towards that goal. You decide to get a legendary armor, and you realize, that you aren't even close to making a first step on that path. Unless you happen to play one of the three specific niche contents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible. > > So if Anet stripped **all rewards** from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game? Why do you feel that "rewards" are not a part of the "joy" of playing the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible. > > > > So if Anet stripped **all rewards** from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game? > > Why do you feel that "rewards" are not a part of the "joy" of playing the game? Because rewards are what keep players playing content. If the game had no rewards, how long do you think players would continue to play? Anyway, this all stemmed from the argument about nerfing the races and those that liked the challenge can do it based off of the leaderboard and that be a reward in if itself. They made that argument against one group that they were not a part of when their very same argument can apply to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Which is fair, however the comment comes off as, only Raids should be entitled to having nice things. Give players more choice. If the only reason people are going into Raids strictly for the Armor, then it’s not really someone who is there for the joy of raiding in the first place. Maybe that will develop into a love of the game mode, it’s certainly possible. > > > > So if Anet stripped **all rewards** from the game, only those who still play are the ones that do so for the joy of playing the game? Is that healthy for the game? > People do like to be rewarded, that's true. But is there any reason for them to be rewarded specifically for raids, over a different type of content? Is pushing people towards content they don't like instead of allowing them to get rewards in a mode they prefer healthy for the game? > > In realiy, from the developer's point of view, there should be no difference whatsoever in which content players are going to obtain their legendary armor, as long as doing so will keep them engaged for about the same time. So, if a fractal legendary armor will cause some people to move from raids to fractals, it's not a problem at all. In fact, it can be beneficial, because players tend to stay longer in the game if they enjoy the content more. > Yes because it gets players to play different content. Anet has actually made efforts to get players to do just that. You may see it as no different but they don’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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