Classic Perception.2507 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Again, nerfing things that reward awareness/intelligent plays. I use to main thief (not so much in this meta), and i'm in a perfect position as a decapper and as a roamer to say that maybe 85 % of the mesmers in this game drop portal but don't even has the awareness to realise they're getting decapped and activate it back. Regarding good portal plays, maybe 5 mesmers in the game actually do them right now and I will give an example of how bad the others are with it. Last week, i was playing a ranked game (plat 2-3), we are fighting on mid a 3v3 (mesmer - rev - necro) and our mesmer has a portal on close. It's actually a 2v3 because our mesmer is on node (capping) while the fight is happening litteraly 3 meters away from him. So he stands there afking, saying in team chat "FIGHT ON NODE". Considering this actual 2v3, our necro dies, then i get heavily pressured. I'm kiting/juking around to survive while targeting him and even have time to type OPEN PORTAL. He refuses because we are not ON node. Bottom line, mesmers have no clue nowadays what a disengage portal is / swapping for good matchups...Etc. In summary, it's such a bad nerf because portal rewarded awareness/strategic plays (like adding a cast time on blinding powder, adding stealth on dodge,etc. You just have a global dumbing down of the game each balance patch) but then again no one actually uses portal correctly nowadays so its global impact on playerbase is low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > 2012 Mesmer mains: We don't like that we have to Portal our team around to be competitive! I just want to be able to fight on equal grounds. > > 2018 Mesmer mains: Now that we can fight on equal grounds, I still need that extra 30s to portal my team around too, this is UNJUST! Recalling the "only useful for portal" in pvp and "only useful for portal and veil" in wvw, if I still played pvp, having been in the former camp advocating portal either be a class mechanic, elite skill or entirely removed from the game, I would still be in favour of and happy about this - so they can finally balance mesmer without taking portal into account outside of highly organised teams. But I don't play pvp anymore so my point of view is irrelevant. Just wanted to state it as someone who never liked mandatory portal use and even in team comps would prefer to play without it. I acknowledge other mesmer players who would prefer portal not be nerfed so extremely - that is their right and I respect that, but just felt it important to highlight that you shouldn't generalise about all mesmer mains' opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I'm curious to see the next mAt now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > Portal was insanely OP, good riddance. > > > > > > Nerfing portal like this is like halving the range of thieve's Infiltrator's Arrow and Shadowstep. It's a lynch pin of the entire class just like those are for thief, had a very high skill ceiling that greatly rewarded smarter play, is responsible for the most exciting and interesting plays the class can make and in conquest history throughout the entire game mode. But people can't see beyond their nose of think of anything other than "Nerf mesmer." > > > > You misunderstand me. I don't think Mesmer as a class needed much nerf, as far as I'm concerned condi mirage has been overrated since last balance update. But Portal itself has always been a BS skill and it's years overdue for a nerf. > > Again, it's like saying Shadow Step and Infiltrator's Arrows are BS capabilities of thieves because it allows them to decap and rotate faster than anything else in the game and halving the range on both of those things. It completely steam roles the entire class's identity and their entire role in conquest all at once. Shadowstep has a range of 1200 and time to step back of 10 second. I think we should not compare it to range 5000 and time to portal back of 30 second. Also portal is not a part of weapon skillset, better it's not the single reason of a weapon usage, so comparing it to IA is also not advised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"djoun.3425" said: > Actually insane how spoiled mesmers are. Has the most broken skill in the game reduced from mandatory and they cry. And completely overlooking it was an universal nerf to almost everyone and overlooking alternatives; > Even if portal actually was useless, which it isnt, u can still go full 1v1, triple utility and win every 1v1, including soulbeast. They had the option to do that before the patch too and ppl conciously ran portal anyways (they would still win with portal if the sb got unlucky with plasmas afaik, not 100% familiar with the matchup tho), which shows how broken portal and mesmer with portal was and how justified the nerf was. I think the real issue isn't that portal is so good and now it isn't it's that portal has gone from being so good to a mockery of it's former self like how Bountiful Disillusionment stab went from abused in some situations but not being over bearing outside of those abused times (CS) to a complete joke of 1s. If they had removed the stab people would have been less salty but leaving it at a token amount is like rubbing salt in a wound. Same thing here, you make portal vastly reduced in effectiveness when it already was bad outside of coordinated teams/top 50 players. They should have removed portal and made a different skill but then people would have to actually do jumping puzzles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Classic Perception.2507" said: > Again, nerfing things that reward awareness/intelligent plays. > > I use to main thief (not so much in this meta), and i'm in a perfect position as a decapper and as a roamer to say that maybe 85 % of the mesmers in this game drop portal but don't even has the awareness to realise they're getting decapped and activate it back. > > Regarding good portal plays, maybe 5 mesmers in the game actually do them right now and I will give an example of how bad the others are with it. Last week, i was playing a ranked game (plat 2-3), we are fighting on mid a 3v3 (mesmer - rev - necro) and our mesmer has a portal on close. It's actually a 2v3 because our mesmer is on node (capping) while the fight is happening litteraly 3 meters away from him. So he stands there afking, saying in team chat "FIGHT ON NODE". Considering this actual 2v3, our necro dies, then i get heavily pressured. I'm kiting/juking around to survive while targeting him and even have time to type OPEN PORTAL. He refuses because we are not ON node. Bottom line, mesmers have no clue nowadays what a disengage portal is / swapping for good matchups...Etc. > > In summary, it's such a bad nerf because portal rewarded awareness/strategic plays (like adding a cast time on blinding powder, adding stealth on dodge,etc. You just have a global dumbing down of the game each balance patch) but then again no one actually uses portal correctly nowadays so its global impact on playerbase is low. Basically. People have mostly complained about Mirage cloak dodging while CC, and Mirage damage. Portal on the otherhand is a class capability that's defined mesmer since 2012, rewarded skilled mesmers over worse ones, allowed for unique and fun team play, and is easily one of the most exciting things in conquest. Period Going back over conquest history and casting, the things that always gathered the most hype with awesome thief plays and awesome portal plays. I would rather see portal have a 60 second duration with a 90 or 100 second cooldown, which would have been a better nerf that retained it's complete and unique functionality while being less spammy with less overall ability to flip games again and again. The one thing I like about this change is that mesmers do have to suffer some kind serious cooldown if they just let a portal run out without using it. But the 30 second duration makes it not worth using over just running three standard utility skills to help with direct combat, which I don't think anyone was asking for mesmers. Make Portal's duration 60 seconds, nerf it so it has a 90-100 second cooldown and goes on a 30 second cooldown if the mesmer lets the portal run out. I think that would be a far more fair nerf that allowed portal to be unique and useful but less spammy and less impact while punishing less useful thoughtless uses of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Xstein.2187" said: > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > > Portal was insanely OP, good riddance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing portal like this is like halving the range of thieve's Infiltrator's Arrow and Shadowstep. It's a lynch pin of the entire class just like those are for thief, had a very high skill ceiling that greatly rewarded smarter play, is responsible for the most exciting and interesting plays the class can make and in conquest history throughout the entire game mode. But people can't see beyond their nose of think of anything other than "Nerf mesmer." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You misunderstand me. I don't think Mesmer as a class needed much nerf, as far as I'm concerned condi mirage has been overrated since last balance update. But Portal itself has always been a BS skill and it's years overdue for a nerf. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, it's like saying Shadow Step and Infiltrator's Arrows are BS capabilities of thieves because it allows them to decap and rotate faster than anything else in the game and halving the range on both of those things. It completely steam roles the entire class's identity and their entire role in conquest all at once. > > > > > > Fallacy of false equivalence. > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it is a false equivalence. Infiltrators arrow can give 12,600 units of distance in 72 sec ((72/6)+2)X900)=12,600). Portal gives 5,000 distance in 72 seconds. With infiltrators arrow providing around 252% more distance per 72 sec it's like comparing apples to grapes. > > > > > > > > Infiltrator's Arrow can be used twice in a row and cover 1800 distance by the time the mesmer can travel 5000 meters through Portal. > > > > > > > > Portal has a much, much stronger and impactful effect. Thus, it is on a longer cooldown. Please, don't make it seem like Infiltrator's Arrow is on the same level as Portal... LOL > > > > > > > > "Mesmer mains" amirite xD > > > > > > You aren't counting the time it took for the mesmer to travel the 5000 difference to drop the Portal Entrance to Jump Trough in the first place. A meta thief can absolutely go from side to mid back to side almost as fast as a meta mirage using portal can do the same(About 5,000 units) and it can sustain that level of mobility for much longer where as that similar feat will leave Mirage completely drained of mobility. > > > > > > Also, even people regarded as being excellent Mesmer / Mirage mains like Shorts admit they do their ladder climbing on thief because it just wins more than Mirage did even before the previous patch. > > > > You keep leaving out the fact that Mesmer can teleport their whole team 5000 units while said Thief cannot. That’s a very large omission, and let’s not forget that a portal that was drop on a point effectively guaranteed a decap or forced an opponent not to be in a team fight or pushing other points for 60 seconds, again large omissions it’s like someone didn’t know the full extent of uses outside of personal transport of the skill. > > I already talked extensively about the beneficial team play Portal has, which have been significantly impacted or damaged. I've never ignored the team capabilities of Portal and in fact exactly what I liked about it so much. > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > > > > > Portal was the most broken skill in pvp. Maybe it'll be balanced instead of mandatory now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it still has an enormous amount of power and potential. It's just less insanely broken > > > > > > > > > > > > How does 30 seconds to go back to where you were equate to enormous power? You literally can't use it to defend. Mesmer's mobility is completely crippled. It's only use is a short range escape. Short range because you can only move so fast and get into a potential danger in 29 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's literally useless now. > > > > > > > > > > portal offers mobility for your entire team. It sounds like you didn't even realize just how strong portal is > > > > > > > > Correction: Was. It's a worse Sand Swell snow > > > > > > No it absolutely is 100% better than sand swell. > > > > > > The duration nerf simply means that portal is now used to perform rotation jukes rather than simply being something that gets dumped on a node and forgotten about. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to rotation juke and nothing else play a thief. They're infinitely better at that sort of thing now. > > > > It's only useful with Medic-Portals and Portal Bombing enemy players now. So about 3/5's of it's potential uses have been completely gutted. And even Medic-Portalling is less effective because your ability to Portal teammates to safes paces has been gutted in half as you need the foresight to believe a fight you're about to engage in might go poorly, create a safe exit before engaging, engaging, and it's only useful if the fight goes south in less than 30 seconds which means most fights are going to look stable long after your portal runs out anyway. > > > > Or you're rushing into a fight that is actively going south in the hopes of portaling people out as soon as you get there, in which case it's decidedly less useful than something like Merciful Intervention or Signet of Mercy so you might as well play a Firebrand and just do that better. > > > > It's been Smiter's booned. It's no longer going to be run over running 2 out of the following 3, Arcane Thievery, Illusion Ambush, or Signet of Midnight with Blink still being mandatory. And without Portal at it's previous level of effectiveness there's no reason to run Mesmers of any kind including Mirage over far better side noders, namely Spellbreaker and especially a Boonbeast who are now the second coming of post Phantasm Rework Chronobunker now that they have on demand Double Protection and Double Protection but against condition damage. > > But please lecture me some more about how I haven't talked about the team play with Portal. It's like someone didn’t read the full extent of the thread outside of literally the bottom post of the page. > > Shadowpass is the one talking about racing Mesmers and thieves like it's a 1-1 thing when both utilize mobility in different ways, Mesmer can allow itself and people near them to effectively be in two places at once at the cost of having had to be where they want to put people previously in a burstier way. Thieves can go anywhere they want at much higher more sustained speeds than a Mesmer. Meh, I may have quoted the wrong person was late when I was posting, but it wasn’t shadowpass who originally compared Thief Mobility to Mesmer Portal, lots of crying mesmers over the Nerf on this looks like I chose the wrong one this time, acting like Portal was only ever a one person one time teleport and try to compare it to Thief IA which requires the use of much more resources and opportunity costs to even less than travel half the distance. It’s almost like the classes are meant to do different things in different manners or something. Being able to effectively lock down a point for a minute without actually being there was OP and saying otherwise is pretty delusional, but most people in this game can’t look at things objectively. Yes thieves are highly mobile on some builds, but they also have lower sustainnin combat lower sustained damage in combat and their burst damage has been getting nerfed in a lot of the recent patches(which is objectively good, burst across the board needed to lowered, but so does a lot of the sustain and passive defenses) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Lul @ non mesmer players thinking they know how to portal play better than mesmers. Regarding the change, one less thing to qq about. Waiting for all people that said over the years that mesmer couldn't be buffed because portal was so op, to show up B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Xstein.2187" said: > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Portal was insanely OP, good riddance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing portal like this is like halving the range of thieve's Infiltrator's Arrow and Shadowstep. It's a lynch pin of the entire class just like those are for thief, had a very high skill ceiling that greatly rewarded smarter play, is responsible for the most exciting and interesting plays the class can make and in conquest history throughout the entire game mode. But people can't see beyond their nose of think of anything other than "Nerf mesmer." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You misunderstand me. I don't think Mesmer as a class needed much nerf, as far as I'm concerned condi mirage has been overrated since last balance update. But Portal itself has always been a BS skill and it's years overdue for a nerf. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, it's like saying Shadow Step and Infiltrator's Arrows are BS capabilities of thieves because it allows them to decap and rotate faster than anything else in the game and halving the range on both of those things. It completely steam roles the entire class's identity and their entire role in conquest all at once. > > > > > > > Fallacy of false equivalence. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it is a false equivalence. Infiltrators arrow can give 12,600 units of distance in 72 sec ((72/6)+2)X900)=12,600). Portal gives 5,000 distance in 72 seconds. With infiltrators arrow providing around 252% more distance per 72 sec it's like comparing apples to grapes. > > > > > > > > > > Infiltrator's Arrow can be used twice in a row and cover 1800 distance by the time the mesmer can travel 5000 meters through Portal. > > > > > > > > > > Portal has a much, much stronger and impactful effect. Thus, it is on a longer cooldown. Please, don't make it seem like Infiltrator's Arrow is on the same level as Portal... LOL > > > > > > > > > > "Mesmer mains" amirite xD > > > > > > > > You aren't counting the time it took for the mesmer to travel the 5000 difference to drop the Portal Entrance to Jump Trough in the first place. A meta thief can absolutely go from side to mid back to side almost as fast as a meta mirage using portal can do the same(About 5,000 units) and it can sustain that level of mobility for much longer where as that similar feat will leave Mirage completely drained of mobility. > > > > > > > > Also, even people regarded as being excellent Mesmer / Mirage mains like Shorts admit they do their ladder climbing on thief because it just wins more than Mirage did even before the previous patch. > > > > > > You keep leaving out the fact that Mesmer can teleport their whole team 5000 units while said Thief cannot. That’s a very large omission, and let’s not forget that a portal that was drop on a point effectively guaranteed a decap or forced an opponent not to be in a team fight or pushing other points for 60 seconds, again large omissions it’s like someone didn’t know the full extent of uses outside of personal transport of the skill. > > > > I already talked extensively about the beneficial team play Portal has, which have been significantly impacted or damaged. I've never ignored the team capabilities of Portal and in fact exactly what I liked about it so much. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > > > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > > > > > > Portal was the most broken skill in pvp. Maybe it'll be balanced instead of mandatory now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it still has an enormous amount of power and potential. It's just less insanely broken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How does 30 seconds to go back to where you were equate to enormous power? You literally can't use it to defend. Mesmer's mobility is completely crippled. It's only use is a short range escape. Short range because you can only move so fast and get into a potential danger in 29 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's literally useless now. > > > > > > > > > > > > portal offers mobility for your entire team. It sounds like you didn't even realize just how strong portal is > > > > > > > > > > Correction: Was. It's a worse Sand Swell snow > > > > > > > > No it absolutely is 100% better than sand swell. > > > > > > > > The duration nerf simply means that portal is now used to perform rotation jukes rather than simply being something that gets dumped on a node and forgotten about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to rotation juke and nothing else play a thief. They're infinitely better at that sort of thing now. > > > > > > It's only useful with Medic-Portals and Portal Bombing enemy players now. So about 3/5's of it's potential uses have been completely gutted. And even Medic-Portalling is less effective because your ability to Portal teammates to safes paces has been gutted in half as you need the foresight to believe a fight you're about to engage in might go poorly, create a safe exit before engaging, engaging, and it's only useful if the fight goes south in less than 30 seconds which means most fights are going to look stable long after your portal runs out anyway. > > > > > > Or you're rushing into a fight that is actively going south in the hopes of portaling people out as soon as you get there, in which case it's decidedly less useful than something like Merciful Intervention or Signet of Mercy so you might as well play a Firebrand and just do that better. > > > > > > It's been Smiter's booned. It's no longer going to be run over running 2 out of the following 3, Arcane Thievery, Illusion Ambush, or Signet of Midnight with Blink still being mandatory. And without Portal at it's previous level of effectiveness there's no reason to run Mesmers of any kind including Mirage over far better side noders, namely Spellbreaker and especially a Boonbeast who are now the second coming of post Phantasm Rework Chronobunker now that they have on demand Double Protection and Double Protection but against condition damage. > > > > But please lecture me some more about how I haven't talked about the team play with Portal. It's like someone didn’t read the full extent of the thread outside of literally the bottom post of the page. > > > > Shadowpass is the one talking about racing Mesmers and thieves like it's a 1-1 thing when both utilize mobility in different ways, Mesmer can allow itself and people near them to effectively be in two places at once at the cost of having had to be where they want to put people previously in a burstier way. Thieves can go anywhere they want at much higher more sustained speeds than a Mesmer. > > Meh, I may have quoted the wrong person was late when I was posting, but it wasn’t shadowpass who originally compared Thief Mobility to Mesmer Portal, lots of crying mesmers over the Nerf on this looks like I chose the wrong one this time, acting like Portal was only ever a one person one time teleport and try to compare it to Thief IA which requires the use of much more resources and opportunity costs to even less than travel half the distance. It’s almost like the classes are meant to do different things in different manners or something. > > Being able to effectively lock down a point for a minute without actually being there was OP and saying otherwise is pretty delusional, but most people in this game can’t look at things objectively. > > Yes thieves are highly mobile on some builds, but they also have lower sustainnin combat lower sustained damage in combat and their burst damage has been getting nerfed in a lot of the recent patches(which is objectively good, burst across the board needed to lowered, but so does a lot of the sustain and passive defenses) Funny how you called me stupid in so many words in your initial post directed at me but couldn't be bothered to even read the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > To put this into perspective, if you drop your portal exit on Waterfall and then run towards Graveyard at base movement speed, it takes you 15 seconds to reach mid. _That's half your time to portal back_ just spent getting somewhere else with an objective. It's worthless now. Straight up Smiter's Booned. This needs to be reversed. > Good luck. Its half the treatment thief got for Ambush trap. It used to allow you to port through walls and back to the trap. Now it requires line of sight, and the line of sight barely working correctly makes it completely unusable. To put it in perspective... This only transported the thief, and ate up a util slot. The thief could not teleport to it at will... Only if something not aligned to the thief triggered the trap. The is not a big circle, but only a line that really could only be placed in door ways. I will eat a cactus if Anet reveresed this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Lmao mesmer mains complains about losing all their mobility,what? Thieves are still jealous of all ur mobility,it’s all they have, u guys have more mobility,utility,great damage and even stealth. Man I get u guys took a hit but perspective needed here I think, class is still heavily loaded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 U guys will be ok! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Lmao mesmer mains complains about losing all their mobility,what? Thieves are still jealous of all ur mobility,it’s all they have, u guys have more mobility,utility,great damage and even stealth. Man I get u guys took a hit but perspective needed here I think, class is still heavily loaded Mesmer used to have unique team mobility, but thieves still have leagues better sustained mobility than mesmers ever had even with portal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > To put this into perspective, if you drop your portal exit on Waterfall and then run towards Graveyard at base movement speed, it takes you 15 seconds to reach mid. _That's half your time to portal back_ just spent getting somewhere else with an objective. It's worthless now. Straight up Smiter's Booned. This needs to be reversed. > > > > Good luck. Its half the treatment thief got for Ambush trap. It used to allow you to port through walls and back to the trap. > > Now it requires line of sight, and the line of sight barely working correctly makes it completely unusable. > > To put it in perspective... This only transported the thief, and ate up a util slot. The thief could not teleport to it at will... Only if something not aligned to the thief triggered the trap. The is not a big circle, but only a line that really could only be placed in door ways. > > I will eat a cactus if Anet reveresed this. They changed it so you can now (try to) teleport to the trap at will. Also Shadow trap is 10,000 range not 5,000. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroy_Shadow_Trap Doesn't require LoS but does do a terrain check which can put you in weird halfway spots or not work at all. Still buggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Haha not a chance,thieves have a slight advantage with infiltrate arrows when comes to running away but mirage in particular have 5 times the evade frames in combat that’s less counterable compared to vault and bound dodge spam.mirage has insane in combat evades mobility and can reset almost as easy as thief between blink, jaunt and stealth utilities combined with evade frames on dodge somtime easier to escape as mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Yes it was a unique mech and didn’t need nurfing I agree it was a great skill and was fine as is, im just saying mesmer did not lose its mobility and is still a great strong class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Arenet Nurfs make little sense most times when their are more obvious worse issues present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Haha not a chance,thieves have a slight advantage with infiltrate arrows when comes to running away but mirage in particular have 5 times the evade frames in combat that’s less counterable compared to vault and bound dodge spam.mirage has insane in combat evades mobility and can reset almost as easy as thief between blink, jaunt and stealth utilities combined with evade frames on dodge somtime easier to escape as mesmer Dude why are you bringing up vault and bounding dodger no one serious runs that. DP Daredevil and SD Thief have eons more speed and rotational ability. Even taking Sword ambush, blink, portal, and classic 3x Jaunt thieves were still more mobile. The difference is that Mesmers and Mirage had less than half the speed of thieves in exchange for being able to move themselves and teammates around in limited bursts. And with portal so heavily nerfed, it's not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Haha not a chance,thieves have a slight advantage with infiltrate arrows when comes to running away but mirage in particular have 5 times the evade frames in combat that’s less counterable compared to vault and bound dodge spam.mirage has insane in combat evades mobility and can reset almost as easy as thief between blink, jaunt and stealth utilities combined with evade frames on dodge somtime easier to escape as mesmer I dont think thats what this discussion is about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I wasn’t talking about what’s more effective I was naming skills that have best mobility ties to them,d/p relies on stealth which I hate using,sword hits like a noodle these days,the poke and port out works still but is easy to read and I mostly wvw and have far better duels with staff even tho s/d is gospel for dueling. My point is yeah portal was unique and useful and should not have been nurfed, but don’t say mesmers mobility is bad and or loses to thief in mobility and dueling in most cases thief loses out, unless ur skilled like say sindrener as in example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Half speed off thieves? And way higher ranged bursting potential,mirage doesn’t even have to be in melee range to burst people down, DE is garbage that shouldn’t have existed so don’t bring up their ranged busts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Half speed off thieves? And way higher ranged bursting potential,mirage doesn’t even have to be in melee range to burst people down, DE is garbage that shouldn’t have existed so don’t bring up their ranged busts Power GS Mirage hasn't been a thing since the Confounding Suggestions nerf last season. Even with portal, thieves rotational ability is leagues above mesmer / mirage. The compensation was how Mirage could portal themselves and teammates to places they've been before. This isn't even arguable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Haha not a chance,thieves have a slight advantage with infiltrate arrows when comes to running away but mirage in particular have 5 times the evade frames in combat that’s less counterable compared to vault and bound dodge spam.mirage has insane in combat evades mobility and can reset almost as easy as thief between blink, jaunt and stealth utilities combined with evade frames on dodge somtime easier to escape as mesmer > > I dont think thats what this discussion is about Ur right I apologize was just responding to a post saying mesmer has lost its mobility now, I’ll see myself out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Xstein.2187" said: > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Portal was insanely OP, good riddance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing portal like this is like halving the range of thieve's Infiltrator's Arrow and Shadowstep. It's a lynch pin of the entire class just like those are for thief, had a very high skill ceiling that greatly rewarded smarter play, is responsible for the most exciting and interesting plays the class can make and in conquest history throughout the entire game mode. But people can't see beyond their nose of think of anything other than "Nerf mesmer." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You misunderstand me. I don't think Mesmer as a class needed much nerf, as far as I'm concerned condi mirage has been overrated since last balance update. But Portal itself has always been a BS skill and it's years overdue for a nerf. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, it's like saying Shadow Step and Infiltrator's Arrows are BS capabilities of thieves because it allows them to decap and rotate faster than anything else in the game and halving the range on both of those things. It completely steam roles the entire class's identity and their entire role in conquest all at once. > > > > > > > Fallacy of false equivalence. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it is a false equivalence. Infiltrators arrow can give 12,600 units of distance in 72 sec ((72/6)+2)X900)=12,600). Portal gives 5,000 distance in 72 seconds. With infiltrators arrow providing around 252% more distance per 72 sec it's like comparing apples to grapes. > > > > > > > > > > Infiltrator's Arrow can be used twice in a row and cover 1800 distance by the time the mesmer can travel 5000 meters through Portal. > > > > > > > > > > Portal has a much, much stronger and impactful effect. Thus, it is on a longer cooldown. Please, don't make it seem like Infiltrator's Arrow is on the same level as Portal... LOL > > > > > > > > > > "Mesmer mains" amirite xD > > > > > > > > You aren't counting the time it took for the mesmer to travel the 5000 difference to drop the Portal Entrance to Jump Trough in the first place. A meta thief can absolutely go from side to mid back to side almost as fast as a meta mirage using portal can do the same(About 5,000 units) and it can sustain that level of mobility for much longer where as that similar feat will leave Mirage completely drained of mobility. > > > > > > > > Also, even people regarded as being excellent Mesmer / Mirage mains like Shorts admit they do their ladder climbing on thief because it just wins more than Mirage did even before the previous patch. > > > > > > You keep leaving out the fact that Mesmer can teleport their whole team 5000 units while said Thief cannot. That’s a very large omission, and let’s not forget that a portal that was drop on a point effectively guaranteed a decap or forced an opponent not to be in a team fight or pushing other points for 60 seconds, again large omissions it’s like someone didn’t know the full extent of uses outside of personal transport of the skill. > > > > I already talked extensively about the beneficial team play Portal has, which have been significantly impacted or damaged. I've never ignored the team capabilities of Portal and in fact exactly what I liked about it so much. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > > > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > > > > > > Portal was the most broken skill in pvp. Maybe it'll be balanced instead of mandatory now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it still has an enormous amount of power and potential. It's just less insanely broken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How does 30 seconds to go back to where you were equate to enormous power? You literally can't use it to defend. Mesmer's mobility is completely crippled. It's only use is a short range escape. Short range because you can only move so fast and get into a potential danger in 29 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's literally useless now. > > > > > > > > > > > > portal offers mobility for your entire team. It sounds like you didn't even realize just how strong portal is > > > > > > > > > > Correction: Was. It's a worse Sand Swell snow > > > > > > > > No it absolutely is 100% better than sand swell. > > > > > > > > The duration nerf simply means that portal is now used to perform rotation jukes rather than simply being something that gets dumped on a node and forgotten about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to rotation juke and nothing else play a thief. They're infinitely better at that sort of thing now. > > > > > > It's only useful with Medic-Portals and Portal Bombing enemy players now. So about 3/5's of it's potential uses have been completely gutted. And even Medic-Portalling is less effective because your ability to Portal teammates to safes paces has been gutted in half as you need the foresight to believe a fight you're about to engage in might go poorly, create a safe exit before engaging, engaging, and it's only useful if the fight goes south in less than 30 seconds which means most fights are going to look stable long after your portal runs out anyway. > > > > > > Or you're rushing into a fight that is actively going south in the hopes of portaling people out as soon as you get there, in which case it's decidedly less useful than something like Merciful Intervention or Signet of Mercy so you might as well play a Firebrand and just do that better. > > > > > > It's been Smiter's booned. It's no longer going to be run over running 2 out of the following 3, Arcane Thievery, Illusion Ambush, or Signet of Midnight with Blink still being mandatory. And without Portal at it's previous level of effectiveness there's no reason to run Mesmers of any kind including Mirage over far better side noders, namely Spellbreaker and especially a Boonbeast who are now the second coming of post Phantasm Rework Chronobunker now that they have on demand Double Protection and Double Protection but against condition damage. > > > > But please lecture me some more about how I haven't talked about the team play with Portal. It's like someone didn’t read the full extent of the thread outside of literally the bottom post of the page. > > > > Shadowpass is the one talking about racing Mesmers and thieves like it's a 1-1 thing when both utilize mobility in different ways, Mesmer can allow itself and people near them to effectively be in two places at once at the cost of having had to be where they want to put people previously in a burstier way. Thieves can go anywhere they want at much higher more sustained speeds than a Mesmer. > > Meh, I may have quoted the wrong person was late when I was posting, but it wasn’t shadowpass who originally compared Thief Mobility to Mesmer Portal, lots of crying mesmers over the Nerf on this looks like I chose the wrong one this time, acting like Portal was only ever a one person one time teleport and try to compare it to Thief IA which requires the use of much more resources and opportunity costs to even less than travel half the distance. It’s almost like the classes are meant to do different things in different manners or something. > > Being able to effectively lock down a point for a minute without actually being there was OP and saying otherwise is pretty delusional, but most people in this game can’t look at things objectively. > > Yes thieves are highly mobile on some builds, but they also have lower sustainnin combat lower sustained damage in combat and their burst damage has been getting nerfed in a lot of the recent patches(which is objectively good, burst across the board needed to lowered, but so does a lot of the sustain and passive defenses) This^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Half speed off thieves? And way higher ranged bursting potential,mirage doesn’t even have to be in melee range to burst people down, DE is garbage that shouldn’t have existed so don’t bring up their ranged busts > > Power GS Mirage hasn't been a thing since the Confounding Suggestions nerf last season. Even with portal, thieves rotational ability is leagues above mesmer / mirage. The compensation was how Mirage could portal themselves and teammates to places they've been before. This isn't even arguable. Thieves are +1 even top players don’t feel 1v1 are worth risk with thief even know there skilled with class and stuck to +1 fights and decap if pvp, a good mesmer is god ov 1v1 and some 1vs2 so ur right can’t compare there,and mirage has ample mobility especially when compared to how loaded the class is, I get that it’s ur class man and it’s a great class and fun but the portal nurf isn’t going to kill it and especially it’s mobility, I play a lot of thief and mirage but mostly ranger so I’m pretty unbiased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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