Solori.6025 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > > > > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > > > > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > > > > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: > > > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. > > > > > > > > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. > > > > > > > > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. > > > > > > > > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. > > > > > > > > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. > > > > > > You forget : > > > - master of manipulation which with mirage cloak allows the mesmer to have basically perma reflect or something close to it, healing while dodging receiving reflect on top, followed by distortion or blink or symmetry or else....same rotation till the target doesn't run out of CD, all of this ofc means we don't know how mesmer works. > > > > This actually proves that you don't know how mesmer works. > > Evasive mirror(dueling) is the trait that with mirage cloak allows reflect, not master of manipulation(chaos), with the vigor nerfs is no where near to perma, and if you spec evasive mirror you drop blind on shatter and consequently ineptitude, so you lose some of the burst. > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Hybrid_Horizon_Roamer, this is one of the many variant of mirage you can expect when roaming as ranger, in more than one occasion these guys show up with their heavy reflect up-time between blink and mirror healing into distortion into stealth which makes longbow completely redudant against mirages in most occasions, this is the reason why most rangers use double axe now and reason why reflect spammers wish for boonbeast nerf. > > No ! I don't main mesmer but denying that chaos mirages exist and fully viable...would be a blatant lie Why would you link a WvW build in an spvp discussion? That's irrelevant as the build does nothing in spvp. Also in WvW you will just be one shot by malicious backstab or outsustained by a holo or ranger. Secondly ranger has more than enough ways to make this build irrelevant. It's why it has The best dueling spec in the game. And that was buffed in WvW immensely. Complaining about mesmer as a ranger is very telling and troubling. ( l2p is probably not an option at that point). Lastly I don't think" permanent " means what you think it means. Edit: I figured out part of the problem. Even the person who listed the build doesn't even know how mesmer functions. In the description it says every shatter blinds yet they took the reflect trait. ( big oof) The build has barely any condition damage or duration and doesn't even use master or manipulation for your perma reflect claim. Like it is a straight up downgrade from trailblazer or even viper for WvW. This was a terrible example and you should probably not refer to meta battle as the end all be all in reference to the viability of a class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 "Wakes up and checks forum" "12 x mentioned" Looks like i sparked some discussion with a joke comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiah.3091 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Mesmer (including power mes and core mes) is getting nerfs every monthly updates. Meanwhile, already OP Boonbeast gets massive buff - noone gives a fuck. I wonder, if A-Net just flat-out delete mesmer from spvp -- will there still be people crying "mesmer is OP"? Voted Spellbreaker.Because the "super-trio" (sb, holo, boonbeaat) are still #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwolf.9571 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 I'll never understand why mesmer is always at the top of the list. They're easy to fight, and can't hold points. Playing alot of mesmer this past week, I'm constantly been able to be free casting all the time without issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcution.4768 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 I just think that the axe axe / sword warhorn soulbeast build needs nerf.....all other soulbeast builds are balanced tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Tiah.3091" said: > Mesmer (including power mes and core mes) is getting nerfs every monthly updates. > Meanwhile, already OP Boonbeast gets massive buff - noone gives a kitten. > > I wonder, if A-Net just flat-out delete mesmer from spvp -- will there still be people crying "mesmer is OP"? > > Voted Spellbreaker.Because the "super-trio" (sb, holo, boonbeaat) are still #1. They probably would People cried about Mesmer for a while. its always the same:WAAAH I cannot beat a scourge WAAAH druid has too much survivability WAAH thieves hit hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > > > > > It could also be that the player dedicated his build to dealing with boonbeasts and mirages? > > > That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals. > > > > > > But if If change my build to something else, something with more condi cleanse then my issues become that Thief, Ranger, Holo and spellbreaker becomes "OP" while mirage and scourge can be ignored because I took too much condi cleanse. > > > > > > Perspective is a funny thing, 2 people could argue completely different sides of the same story and both would be correct. > > > > Your build has downsides to it though. You become weak to multiple classes and builds especially ones that are considered meta in return for being strong against certain other meta builds. Soulbeast, holo and condi mirage lack this trade off for the most part and remain strong or decent against most builds currently in the meta. > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" That's your personal opinion, many players believe the opposite. Besides if any idiot can slap on high toughness and healing they do no damage, rotato potato them, they're an idiot after all by your own evaluation. > > > > I have made my viewpoints very clear that holo gets too much free healing in holosmith in many threads for a while while I've also pointed out the condition stacking and bursting on mirage is not just too strong but entirely inconsistent with the statement from the balance team "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." I'm not witch hunting (would that be a standard hunt?) ranger specifically however it is exceptionally over tuned especially in WvW. > > Im not sure how you can assume all of that when I never posted a specific build? > > > I also feel like theres a sense of balance there too if a player has to decide to do well against mirages or to do well against boonbeasts... You said "That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals." So your build is strong vs some in the meta and has a clear weakness against others and all but maybe thieves and maybe spellbreakers are well represented across divisions. As I say mirage, soulbeasts and holosmiths don't have very big weaknesses, sure conditions might be stronger vs them but they are by no means weak against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolution.5409 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 nerf to the portal has not touched the amount of condition that Mirage is able to apply by pressing two keys and can reapply whenever he wants SB is strong but it is also easier to fight than a good mirage, the skills have obvious animations of what it is going to do, it has no invulnerability and the F3 skills have a cast of 1.2 and 1.4 sec, surely for those who know how to deal with them, they are not as invincible as many people think I would also add the incredible dps of Holo and Reaper even though my problem with them is that they can not be interrupted during their combo, having all that dps and stability that does not occupy a utility slot seems a bit excessive :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch.4810 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > And still probably to this day hasn't figured out how to find the real mesmer in melee range To be fair, i think he did figure it out at the end: Go Holo, pop stab, unleash (skill) 2 into 3 into 5 -> that clone that lived, THAT'S the real mesmer :P (/s) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > > > > > > > It could also be that the player dedicated his build to dealing with boonbeasts and mirages? > > > > That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals. > > > > > > > > But if If change my build to something else, something with more condi cleanse then my issues become that Thief, Ranger, Holo and spellbreaker becomes "OP" while mirage and scourge can be ignored because I took too much condi cleanse. > > > > > > > > Perspective is a funny thing, 2 people could argue completely different sides of the same story and both would be correct. > > > > > > Your build has downsides to it though. You become weak to multiple classes and builds especially ones that are considered meta in return for being strong against certain other meta builds. Soulbeast, holo and condi mirage lack this trade off for the most part and remain strong or decent against most builds currently in the meta. > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" That's your personal opinion, many players believe the opposite. Besides if any idiot can slap on high toughness and healing they do no damage, rotato potato them, they're an idiot after all by your own evaluation. > > > > > > I have made my viewpoints very clear that holo gets too much free healing in holosmith in many threads for a while while I've also pointed out the condition stacking and bursting on mirage is not just too strong but entirely inconsistent with the statement from the balance team "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." I'm not witch hunting (would that be a standard hunt?) ranger specifically however it is exceptionally over tuned especially in WvW. > > > > Im not sure how you can assume all of that when I never posted a specific build? > > > > > > I also feel like theres a sense of balance there too if a player has to decide to do well against mirages or to do well against boonbeasts... > > You said "That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals." So your build is strong vs some in the meta and has a clear weakness against others and all but maybe thieves and maybe spellbreakers are well represented across divisions. > > As I say mirage, soulbeasts and holosmiths don't have very big weaknesses, sure conditions might be stronger vs them but they are by no means weak against them. You either took that out of context on purpose or you didn't bother reading the next sentence. The very next few words were "but if I change my build.." I have the feeling you might have missed it and there are plenty of builds for Tempest to use too so please don't focus solely on the 2 examples I gave, it was the message in the examples that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > > > > > > > > > It could also be that the player dedicated his build to dealing with boonbeasts and mirages? > > > > > That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals. > > > > > > > > > > But if If change my build to something else, something with more condi cleanse then my issues become that Thief, Ranger, Holo and spellbreaker becomes "OP" while mirage and scourge can be ignored because I took too much condi cleanse. > > > > > > > > > > Perspective is a funny thing, 2 people could argue completely different sides of the same story and both would be correct. > > > > > > > > Your build has downsides to it though. You become weak to multiple classes and builds especially ones that are considered meta in return for being strong against certain other meta builds. Soulbeast, holo and condi mirage lack this trade off for the most part and remain strong or decent against most builds currently in the meta. > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" That's your personal opinion, many players believe the opposite. Besides if any idiot can slap on high toughness and healing they do no damage, rotato potato them, they're an idiot after all by your own evaluation. > > > > > > > > I have made my viewpoints very clear that holo gets too much free healing in holosmith in many threads for a while while I've also pointed out the condition stacking and bursting on mirage is not just too strong but entirely inconsistent with the statement from the balance team "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." I'm not witch hunting (would that be a standard hunt?) ranger specifically however it is exceptionally over tuned especially in WvW. > > > > > > Im not sure how you can assume all of that when I never posted a specific build? > > > > > > > > > I also feel like theres a sense of balance there too if a player has to decide to do well against mirages or to do well against boonbeasts... > > > > You said "That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals." So your build is strong vs some in the meta and has a clear weakness against others and all but maybe thieves and maybe spellbreakers are well represented across divisions. > > > > As I say mirage, soulbeasts and holosmiths don't have very big weaknesses, sure conditions might be stronger vs them but they are by no means weak against them. > > You either took that out of context on purpose or you didn't bother reading the next sentence. > The very next few words were "but if I change my build.." > > I have the feeling you might have missed it and there are plenty of builds for Tempest to use too so please don't focus solely on the 2 examples I gave, it was the message in the examples that matter. > No I understand you. You're saying you can run 1 build and be strong vs certain classes and weak vs the others however you can change build and that flips. You can then change to another build and your strengths and weaknesses likewise change. That's how it should be. What I'm saying is that soulbeast, holo and mirage (as the 3 top examples) lack this within their meta builds where they're strong against a lot of classes and builds but not really considered weak against others. They also have a few other options to run which while aren't as good are still pretty strong and lack clear weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted December 16, 2018 Author Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. Fighter who is weird isn't necessarily toxic. I think Mesmer and by association Chronomancer and Mirage should contribute to games less by conventionally slamming down kills and more by just being weird and unconventional, and what kills they do slam down should be by confusing and outplaying the enemy than just blowing them the fuck up with condition damage. It's why I hate the portal change so much. Mesmer should be almost primarily loaded with tons of stuff like portal and their ability to win games should hinge less on their ability to blow people the fuck up and more with how fucking unusually they move around the map, and how unusually they impact a game and unpredictably they impact games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horan.7013 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Mirage can still dodge/jaunt while CC’d right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted December 16, 2018 Author Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. > > That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. Yet, you have a poll on this same forum, stating with 75% approval that there is too much damage flying around... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63078/is-damage-too-high/p1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > > > > > > > > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. > > > > > > > > That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. > > > > > > Yet, you have a poll on this same forum, stating with 75% approval that there is too much damage flying around... > > > > I consider popular opinion about as useful as my stool. > > Interesting, coming from a guy that picked the most voted class on this poll... A broken clock, ect. ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. > > > > > > > > > > That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. > > > > > > > > Yet, you have a poll on this same forum, stating with 75% approval that there is too much damage flying around... > > > > > > I consider popular opinion about as useful as my stool. > > > > Interesting, coming from a guy that picked the most voted class on this poll... > > A broken clock, ect. ect. Let me spell it out for you: The guy belies my argument that mesmer design is toxic, while you basically stated that people dislike to play against it regardless of the balance situation. He states that my previous argument about needing more passive defenses is ridiculous, while we have 75% poll that says there is too much damage flying around. You stated that you do not care about popular choice, while picking the most "popular" op choice.... Do you notice a trend there?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you have a poll on this same forum, stating with 75% approval that there is too much damage flying around... > > > > > > > > I consider popular opinion about as useful as my stool. > > > > > > Interesting, coming from a guy that picked the most voted class on this poll... > > > > A broken clock, ect. ect. > > Let me spell it out for you: > > The guy belies my argument that mesmer design is toxic, while you basically stated that people dislike to play against it regardless of the balance situation. > > He states that my previous argument about needing more passive defenses is ridiculous, while we have 75% poll that says there is too much damage flying around. > > You stated that you do not care about popular choice, while picking the most "popular" op choice.... > > Do you notice a trend there?. That the community recognizes that Boonbeast is out of control is an accident really. It's 2018 and people still whine about Core Thieves running away before they get killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Arioch.4810" said: > > > And still probably to this day hasn't figured out how to find the real mesmer in melee range > > To be fair, i think he did figure it out at the end: Go Holo, pop stab, unleash (skill) 2 into 3 into 5 -> that clone that lived, THAT'S the real mesmer > :P > > (/s) Now you know that's too many steps for most people in this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Horan.7013" said: > Mirage can still dodge/jaunt while CC’d right? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you have a poll on this same forum, stating with 75% approval that there is too much damage flying around... > > > > > > > > > > I consider popular opinion about as useful as my stool. > > > > > > > > Interesting, coming from a guy that picked the most voted class on this poll... > > > > > > A broken clock, ect. ect. > > > > Let me spell it out for you: > > > > The guy belies my argument that mesmer design is toxic, while you basically stated that people dislike to play against it regardless of the balance situation. > > > > He states that my previous argument about needing more passive defenses is ridiculous, while we have 75% poll that says there is too much damage flying around. > > > > You stated that you do not care about popular choice, while picking the most "popular" op choice.... > > > > Do you notice a trend there?. > > That the community recognizes that Boonbeast is out of control is an accident really. > > It's 2018 and people still whine about Core Thieves running away before they get killed. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you have a poll on this same forum, stating with 75% approval that there is too much damage flying around... > > > > > > > > > > I consider popular opinion about as useful as my stool. > > > > > > > > Interesting, coming from a guy that picked the most voted class on this poll... > > > > > > A broken clock, ect. ect. > > > > Let me spell it out for you: > > > > The guy belies my argument that mesmer design is toxic, while you basically stated that people dislike to play against it regardless of the balance situation. > > > > He states that my previous argument about needing more passive defenses is ridiculous, while we have 75% poll that says there is too much damage flying around. > > > > You stated that you do not care about popular choice, while picking the most "popular" op choice.... > > > > Do you notice a trend there?. > > That the community recognizes that Boonbeast is out of control is an accident really. > > It's 2018 and people still whine about Core Thieves running away before they get killed. The truth is...soulbeast is the only thing with a serious chance vs mirage at equal skill level...no wonders mesmers like you want it nerfed so badly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are pretty much describing TOXIC CLASS DESIGN. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a class that for what ever reason (which is completely irrelevant) its main defining attribute is that players hate to play against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > That comparison is about as sensible as your passive defense argument. > > > > > > > > > > Yet, you have a poll on this same forum, stating with 75% approval that there is too much damage flying around... > > > > > > > > I consider popular opinion about as useful as my stool. > > > > > > Interesting, coming from a guy that picked the most voted class on this poll... > > > > A broken clock, ect. ect. > > Let me spell it out for you: > > The guy belies my argument that mesmer design is toxic, while you basically stated that people dislike to play against it regardless of the balance situation. > > He states that my previous argument about needing more passive defenses is ridiculous, while we have 75% poll that says there is too much damage flying around. > > You stated that you do not care about popular choice, while picking the most "popular" op choice.... > > Do you notice a trend there?. Oh that was not the part about passive defenses I was addressing. I was addressing your previous trainwreck of a mesmer brigading thread. The one where if a skill has more than one function you called it passive. Good times. Although even if it was Mortrialus had the same reaction I would. Popular opinion doesn't mean anything. It just means a lot of people like hearing the same thing as other people. If ANet implemented a tenth of the horrible popular opinions on here every class would be garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > The truth is...soulbeast is the only thing with a serious chance vs mirage at equal skill level...no wonders mesmers like you want it nerfed so badly The truth is you refuse to get better and learn how to fight mesmer even after all nerfs... no wonder QQ'ers like you want it nerfed so badly . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. just roll zerk staff tempest like me :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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