Why is passive Endure Pain still here?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the sad part of this is that the elixir s auto proc was in a mandatory trait line for engi. lots of other classes got their passives removed but no one used the trait lines they were in, so they weren't really noticed. so, should we nerf another thing for war that is a (somewhat) mandatory trait line? if we do, we should nerf mandatory trait lines as well... well no LOL rather buff others, cuz you know, logic.

[Ceit.7619]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > > > @"warherox.7943" said:

> > > > > @"Lost Elegy.9276" said:

> > > > > Damage prevention is cancerous on all levels. Hell, the ACTIVES that let you do this is half the reason Elites turned the damage up so high. Gods forbid Warrior facetank an entire team and get punished for it! "HUR DUR, CHARGE IN, USE 5 MOVES AND SPIN OUT DURING MY BALANCED STANCE AND CONDI DAMAGE IMMUNITY!" Nothing is more frustrating than fighting a class with 10 seconds to IGNORE THE ENTIRE GAME. Evasion Spamming, Infinite Stability, Resistance and the like need to outright get removed from the game. It doesn't add complexity or skill to the game, it actively takes away from it.

> > > > > -) If Condis are bad, nerf them. Don't introduce something that screws over classes that aren't exploiting the condi system.

> > > > > -) If CC is bad, nerf the moves that have stuns, pulls, etc. Don't make a status that renders you immune to any form of lockdown that ALSO punishes classes with little access to it. Nothing ruins my enjoyment of this game faster than a man who is REALLY ANGRY ignoring a kitten explosion.

> > > > > -) If Damage is too high, nerf it. Don't introduce ways to completely lock out the classes that aren't abusing 2-second burst combos.

> > > > >

> > > > > WoW, a terrible MMO, understood these simple concepts and had a massive PvP playerbase because the combat was straightforward, easy to learn and hard to master. Guild Wars 2 will never have an active PvP playerbase with a system this janky and illogical. Nothing ruins my enjoyment of this game faster than a man who is REALLY ANGRY ignoring a kitten explosion. Or a mage obsessed with butterflies becoming immune to all forms of damage because they have illusion magic. Like. How do illusions protect you from an explosion the size of the MAP!? How do illusions take a BULLET for you?

> > > >

> > > > It's funny because all they have to do to balance the game is look at GW1. GW1 had a great CC system. You couldn't use a knock down skill on someone already knocked down, you had to time it so your knock down lands the moment they get up. In this game, you don't need to time CC at all because CC will overwrite each other. They need to make it so you can't get CC'd again while you're currently CC'd. Also, every stunbreak should have a stack of stability when you successfully break a stun.

> > >

> > > Sure...but you can also look at GW1 to see why Anet was also bad at balancing the game. Shadowform is basically the predicessor to the issues gw2 is having right now. Having complete immunity to the game, meanwhile being able to do damage, essentially makes it overpowered and a god mode button.

> >

> > Shadowform built into it it's own weakness, which is that your damage was not able to go over a certain, fairly small amount based on trait allocation in pve. In pvp, your 'god mode button' would literally take 95% of your hp when it ended, so... yeah. Sounds way more balanced than what we are dealing with here, which in essential that damage scaled up way too fast compared to defense.

>

> Shadowform usto not be so nerfed...all those things that made shadowform do negative effects were repercussions of constant nerfing to the skill over years,

>

> They didn't want to go and smiters boon nerf it because players were playing the game literally only to farm with this build (Underworld speed clears and the like) and everytime it was nerfed there was an uproar. That's how broken this skill was that people had become dependent on it to clear hours worth of content in 20 minutes.

>

> But like i said, Shadowform is the precurser to what we have now. The invuln procs while being able to do damage is far worse than shadowform, even though shadowform was the worst offender of gw1 history. Just shows how kittened up the balancing is for gw2.

>

>

 

Shadow Form:

"Elite Enchantment spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, all hostile spells targeting you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 health."

Energy 5, Cast time 1 second, Recharge 60.

 

This was the ORIGINAL skill description. In 2006, they increased the energy cost to 10. Nearly two years later they split it from pvp and increased the duration to 5/25/30 in pve. It was here with the buffed duration that some people started farming with it, which is why two months after the duration increase, they added in damage reduction by 50% while it's active. A month later they changed this to 33% less instead. A few months later they played around with the uptime by reducing both the duration and cooldown. Two years after this, they changed how the skill functioned altogether, making it arguably easier to build for farming with a 30 second recharge, base 21 second duration, the inability to be targetted by spells, and flat damage reduction that could be combined with Prot Spirit to have physical immunity while still being struck for on-hit effects or hexes. The pvp version of this skill NEVER changed again, remaining to this day as it was when it was split.

 

My point, regardless, is that you are misrepresenting GW1's balance efforts.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> I think many of you miss the point. It‘s not about removing the skill, it‘s about the passive part. Redesign it so it is an active skill that you need to click. Idk make it so that if you fall under X% of health you get a Y second window to activate endure pain (could be a pop up in the window for special skills). Everything‘s better than letting the game cover for you.

 

Except Warrior's passives are very easily played around. Happens all the time. Why? The people doing it know what they are doing. My Eviscerate will get dodged constantly unless I bait an enemy into it, my CC will get dodged unless I bait an enemy into it, enemies will force a Last Stand proc to deny me Stability pulses and kite me while they wait for it to go away, they will burst me down if I'm not careful and force a Defy Pain proc and then just kite me while it ticks away. Do you know how frequently I see another player in WvW or sPvP just *for no reason* dodge roll two times in a row or dodge roll a melee auto attack when they still have at least 70% health left and either many other defensive skills or mobility skills? Often. I mean *often*. I 1v2 or 1v3 those players because they don't know what they are doing, they just button mash and hope for the best. Its the same reason why people have such a glaring problem with Full Counter, because they don't grasp the concept of stowing their weapon yet, or to just not hit it.

 

Warrior sustain is typically gated behind aggressive play and needing to land their Burst skills and actively looking to NOT have their passives proc off of something right out of the gate in a fight. If an actual skilled player procs my Last Stand very early on in a fight then I am not in a good spot to win, they take advantage of that situation and kite out the duration of the stance, they do the same for Defy Pain. Once they know its gone they press harder to force the Warrior to use Endure Pain and other defensive skills.

 

Warrior has some of the most telegraphed skills in the game that are very easily avoided, especially by skilled players. I see it happen all the time and hell I do it to other Warriors myself. I don't want to see Mirages of all things complaining about Warrior passives, you're playing something purposefully *because* its overtuned.

 

Warrior has fallen to the way side in higher tiers of play *because* better players can read Warrior's highly telegraphed skills and avoid them. Are you telling me you *don't* see that Eviscerate coming? The Warrior hangs in the air, even at point blank range, for a good second before that hit lands. Arcing Slice has a visible wind up before the damage even goes out. Bull's Charge puts you into a hip check animation before it even begins to travel its appropriate distance. Shield Bash had its cast time increased a long while ago, and the animation is very clear as day before it even lands the CC on someone. Even the skills in Rampage share the same highly telegraphed animations. Are you telling me you don't see that leap into the air? The hip check? The boulder throw that has the Warrior literally spin around and toss a rock through the air? The kick in Rampage has the fastest activation time out of any of them and thats just the one skill and its still a 1/2 second activation time.

 

If you're telling me you're having issues with Warrior's passives then you're not playing as well as you probably think you are because those passives don't mean *anything* if they don't have Adrenal Health stacks and you can *still* interrupt a Warrior trying to heal with Mending or To the Limit even through Endure Pain, and if you're still hitting a Warrior while they have Defiant Stance active then you're making the problem all on your own.

 

 

[Derenaya.3479]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > I think many of you miss the point. It‘s not about removing the skill, it‘s about the passive part. Redesign it so it is an active skill that you need to click. Idk make it so that if you fall under X% of health you get a Y second window to activate endure pain (could be a pop up in the window for special skills). Everything‘s better than letting the game cover for you.

>

> Except Warrior's passives are very easily played around. Happens all the time. Why? The people doing it know what they are doing. My Eviscerate will get dodged constantly unless I bait an enemy into it, my CC will get dodged unless I bait an enemy into it, enemies will force a Last Stand proc to deny me Stability pulses and kite me while they wait for it to go away, they will burst me down if I'm not careful and force a Defy Pain proc and then just kite me while it ticks away. Do you know how frequently I see another player in WvW or sPvP just *for no reason* dodge roll two times in a row or dodge roll a melee auto attack when they still have at least 70% health left and either many other defensive skills or mobility skills? Often. I mean *often*. I 1v2 or 1v3 those players because they don't know what they are doing, they just button mash and hope for the best. Its the same reason why people have such a glaring problem with Full Counter, because they don't grasp the concept of stowing their weapon yet, or to just not hit it.

>

> Warrior sustain is typically gated behind aggressive play and needing to land their Burst skills and actively looking to NOT have their passives proc off of something right out of the gate in a fight. If an actual skilled player procs my Last Stand very early on in a fight then I am not in a good spot to win, they take advantage of that situation and kite out the duration of the stance, they do the same for Defy Pain. Once they know its gone they press harder to force the Warrior to use Endure Pain and other defensive skills.

>

> Warrior has some of the most telegraphed skills in the game that are very easily avoided, especially by skilled players. I see it happen all the time and hell I do it to other Warriors myself. I don't want to see Mirages of all things complaining about Warrior passives, you're playing something purposefully *because* its overtuned.

>

> Warrior has fallen to the way side in higher tiers of play *because* better players can read Warrior's highly telegraphed skills and avoid them. Are you telling me you *don't* see that Eviscerate coming? The Warrior hangs in the air, even at point blank range, for a good second before that hit lands. Arcing Slice has a visible wind up before the damage even goes out. Bull's Charge puts you into a hip check animation before it even begins to travel its appropriate distance. Shield Bash had its cast time increased a long while ago, and the animation is very clear as day before it even lands the CC on someone. Even the skills in Rampage share the same highly telegraphed animations. Are you telling me you don't see that leap into the air? The hip check? The boulder throw that has the Warrior literally spin around and toss a rock through the air? The kick in Rampage has the fastest activation time out of any of them and thats just the one skill and its still a 1/2 second activation time.

>

> If you're telling me you're having issues with Warrior's passives then you're not playing as well as you probably think you are because those passives don't mean *anything* if they don't have Adrenal Health stacks and you can *still* interrupt a Warrior trying to heal with Mending or To the Limit even through Endure Pain, and if you're still hitting a Warrior while they have Defiant Stance active then you're making the problem all on your own.

>

>

 

Jesus christ you‘re the second one, is my english so bad that I don‘t get my point accros?

 

I‘m not talking about outplaying it, I‘m talking about a trait that is triggered by the game, automaticly, without your doing, you don‘t need to think about it or anything => Imo not very skilled. It should be you that play with all of it up - down sides. Forgot to dodge? Well you‘re dead now, ah wait passive trait saved my ass even tho I made a mistake. How is that skilled in any way or form?

 

All I suggest is to redesign traits like endure pain (not just warriors, all of them) so you need to actively use it. Active in like how I suggested above where you get a timeframe you can active the trait (like an utility) if you fall below 50% hp or whatever.

 

Atm the system just rewards bad player for not paying attention.

[Dadnir.5038]

Passive endure pain _defy pain_ stayed for the same reason than ranger's trait _stoneform_, thief trait _instant reflexes_, necromancer's _unholy sanctuary_, revenant's _versed in stone_, elementalist's _earth embrace_, guardian's _virtous solace_ or even engineer's _automated medical response_ stayed.

 

The answer is that ANet mostly chased away traits that were returning CC for CC and tuned down the engineer's invuln uptime. They didn't specifically touched life extending traits, they just touch the one that were "unfun" to play against.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Passive endure pain _defy pain_ stayed for the same reason than ranger's trait _stoneform_, thief trait _instant reflexes_, necromancer's _unholy sanctuary_, revenant's _versed in stone_, elementalist's _earth embrace_, guardian's _virtous solace_ or even engineer's _automated medical response_ stayed.

>

> The answer is that ANet mostly chased away traits that were returning CC for CC and tuned down the engineer's invuln uptime. They didn't specifically touched life extending traits, they just touch the one that were "unfun" to play against.

 

^

 

> @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > > I think many of you miss the point. It‘s not about removing the skill, it‘s about the passive part. Redesign it so it is an active skill that you need to click. Idk make it so that if you fall under X% of health you get a Y second window to activate endure pain (could be a pop up in the window for special skills). Everything‘s better than letting the game cover for you.

> >

> > Except Warrior's passives are very easily played around. Happens all the time. Why? The people doing it know what they are doing. My Eviscerate will get dodged constantly unless I bait an enemy into it, my CC will get dodged unless I bait an enemy into it, enemies will force a Last Stand proc to deny me Stability pulses and kite me while they wait for it to go away, they will burst me down if I'm not careful and force a Defy Pain proc and then just kite me while it ticks away. Do you know how frequently I see another player in WvW or sPvP just *for no reason* dodge roll two times in a row or dodge roll a melee auto attack when they still have at least 70% health left and either many other defensive skills or mobility skills? Often. I mean *often*. I 1v2 or 1v3 those players because they don't know what they are doing, they just button mash and hope for the best. Its the same reason why people have such a glaring problem with Full Counter, because they don't grasp the concept of stowing their weapon yet, or to just not hit it.

> >

> > Warrior sustain is typically gated behind aggressive play and needing to land their Burst skills and actively looking to NOT have their passives proc off of something right out of the gate in a fight. If an actual skilled player procs my Last Stand very early on in a fight then I am not in a good spot to win, they take advantage of that situation and kite out the duration of the stance, they do the same for Defy Pain. Once they know its gone they press harder to force the Warrior to use Endure Pain and other defensive skills.

> >

> > Warrior has some of the most telegraphed skills in the game that are very easily avoided, especially by skilled players. I see it happen all the time and hell I do it to other Warriors myself. I don't want to see Mirages of all things complaining about Warrior passives, you're playing something purposefully *because* its overtuned.

> >

> > Warrior has fallen to the way side in higher tiers of play *because* better players can read Warrior's highly telegraphed skills and avoid them. Are you telling me you *don't* see that Eviscerate coming? The Warrior hangs in the air, even at point blank range, for a good second before that hit lands. Arcing Slice has a visible wind up before the damage even goes out. Bull's Charge puts you into a hip check animation before it even begins to travel its appropriate distance. Shield Bash had its cast time increased a long while ago, and the animation is very clear as day before it even lands the CC on someone. Even the skills in Rampage share the same highly telegraphed animations. Are you telling me you don't see that leap into the air? The hip check? The boulder throw that has the Warrior literally spin around and toss a rock through the air? The kick in Rampage has the fastest activation time out of any of them and thats just the one skill and its still a 1/2 second activation time.

> >

> > If you're telling me you're having issues with Warrior's passives then you're not playing as well as you probably think you are because those passives don't mean *anything* if they don't have Adrenal Health stacks and you can *still* interrupt a Warrior trying to heal with Mending or To the Limit even through Endure Pain, and if you're still hitting a Warrior while they have Defiant Stance active then you're making the problem all on your own.

> >

> >

>

> Jesus christ you‘re the second one, is my english so bad that I don‘t get my point accros?

>

> I‘m not talking about outplaying it, I‘m talking about a trait that is triggered by the game, automaticly, without your doing, you don‘t need to think about it or anything => Imo not very skilled. It should be you that play with all of it up - down sides. Forgot to dodge? Well you‘re dead now, ah wait passive trait saved my kitten even tho I made a mistake. How is that skilled in any way or form?

>

> All I suggest is to redesign traits like endure pain (not just warriors, all of them) so you need to actively use it. Active in like how I suggested above where you get a timeframe you can active the trait (like an utility) if you fall below 50% hp or whatever.

>

> Atm the system just rewards bad player for not paying attention.

 

Except I just explained to you how it can be detrimental against better players. They force the proc and then just wait it out because they are passive and we have no control over them other than avoiding hits which can't be done indefinitely. Of course players who aren't as good are going to have tremendous issues with it because they are the ones not yet aware of ICD lengths and what specs do what when you run into them, they are also the ones who don't yet know animations or what every skill does and what ones they need to avoid or what animations leave a class open.

[Daishi.6027]

Unpopular opinion, and I don’t like passives like that in the game. But I find at least for warrior it’s thematic of a sturdy body and with it, it doesn’t feel like a problem after the patch; particularly more so after the changes to full counter.

 

Warrior having it feels more balanced than Engie’s passive S for various reasons.

[Crozame.4098]

The lesson is, if you want to make a point, don't only mention one class that has been heavily nerfed again and again. You need to mention all the other classes that also have this passive proc.

 

Moreover, the passive endure pain is not even possible on the strength line variant of the war, that trait is on the defense line.That Strength variant war can be killed very fast, if not played careful. For the dagger/shield defense traditional build, passive endurepain is possible, but its a bunker and it has way less dmg. So, it is not fair to say war has insane DMG as well as high sustain. Failing to acknowledge the above fact shows you do not understand the game well, and your opinions are not informative at all.

 

Moreover, it is not immune to condi, it can be cced, blinded etc. And more importantly, it only has 2 seconds and the CD is f***ing long. So, for all the war haters out there, you guys are just bad and probably complain every class that is not your main.

 

 

 

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

As a warrior main for the longest time I can say with confidence that defy pain has been completely useless ever since the nerf months ago. I'm with the OP that it shouldn't exist, but solely for how bad it is, rather than complaining about "broken passives."

 

A 90 second internal cooldown on a skill that lasts only 2 seconds(Less than Elixir S) and that doesn't negate conditions or any CC. It's actually laughable if anyone considers that unfair in any way. By comparison RAMPAGE has a shorter or equal cooldown than that.

 

So yeah, get rid of it. Maybe that's the first step that needs to be taken to make the defense line great again.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > I think many of you miss the point. It‘s not about removing the skill, it‘s about the passive part. Redesign it so it is an active skill that you need to click. Idk make it so that if you fall under X% of health you get a Y second window to activate endure pain (could be a pop up in the window for special skills). Everything‘s better than letting the game cover for you.

>

> Except Warrior's passives are very easily played around. Happens all the time. Why? The people doing it know what they are doing. My Eviscerate will get dodged constantly unless I bait an enemy into it, my CC will get dodged unless I bait an enemy into it, enemies will force a Last Stand proc to deny me Stability pulses and kite me while they wait for it to go away, they will burst me down if I'm not careful and force a Defy Pain proc and then just kite me while it ticks away. Do you know how frequently I see another player in WvW or sPvP just *for no reason* dodge roll two times in a row or dodge roll a melee auto attack when they still have at least 70% health left and either many other defensive skills or mobility skills? Often. I mean *often*. I 1v2 or 1v3 those players because they don't know what they are doing, they just button mash and hope for the best. Its the same reason why people have such a glaring problem with Full Counter, because they don't grasp the concept of stowing their weapon yet, or to just not hit it.

>

> Warrior sustain is typically gated behind aggressive play and needing to land their Burst skills and actively looking to NOT have their passives proc off of something right out of the gate in a fight. If an actual skilled player procs my Last Stand very early on in a fight then I am not in a good spot to win, they take advantage of that situation and kite out the duration of the stance, they do the same for Defy Pain. Once they know its gone they press harder to force the Warrior to use Endure Pain and other defensive skills.

>

> Warrior has some of the most telegraphed skills in the game that are very easily avoided, especially by skilled players. I see it happen all the time and hell I do it to other Warriors myself. I don't want to see Mirages of all things complaining about Warrior passives, you're playing something purposefully *because* its overtuned.

>

> Warrior has fallen to the way side in higher tiers of play *because* better players can read Warrior's highly telegraphed skills and avoid them. Are you telling me you *don't* see that Eviscerate coming? The Warrior hangs in the air, even at point blank range, for a good second before that hit lands. Arcing Slice has a visible wind up before the damage even goes out. Bull's Charge puts you into a hip check animation before it even begins to travel its appropriate distance. Shield Bash had its cast time increased a long while ago, and the animation is very clear as day before it even lands the CC on someone. Even the skills in Rampage share the same highly telegraphed animations. Are you telling me you don't see that leap into the air? The hip check? The boulder throw that has the Warrior literally spin around and toss a rock through the air? The kick in Rampage has the fastest activation time out of any of them and thats just the one skill and its still a 1/2 second activation time.

>

> If you're telling me you're having issues with Warrior's passives then you're not playing as well as you probably think you are because those passives don't mean *anything* if they don't have Adrenal Health stacks and you can *still* interrupt a Warrior trying to heal with Mending or To the Limit even through Endure Pain, and if you're still hitting a Warrior while they have Defiant Stance active then you're making the problem all on your own.

>

>

 

That truth bomb !

[Opopanax.1803]

O would happily give up warrior stances if I could get some baseline evasion mechanics and other useful skills that other classes have. Warriors toolkit is extremely small.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> So yeah, get rid of it. Maybe that's the first step that needs to be taken to make the defense line great again.

That's the issue with warrior and spellbreaker. In PvP is was balanced long before the FC nerf. In WvW both specs are still broken as endure and defy pain last for 4 seconds to a total amount of 8s - enough time to win every single matchup. The higher cooldown is irrelevant as the spec offers enough kiting and rampage to cover this issue.

 

Warriors are still the most seen class at duell spots. When I lost to them in WvW, it was not because FC did too much damage (it didn't even hit me), it was because the strengh traitline increases the overall damage too much. A spellbreaker that did not run strengh was beatable with some patience. I don't get that specific FC nerf as it's the spec mechanic. Maybe ANet somehow wanted to lower the impact, so that the opponent can decide to just eat it to save up a dodge for one of the other hardhitting or CC skills - which warrior has plenty of.

 

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> Are you telling me you *don't* see that Eviscerate coming?

FC is way easier to dodge than eviscerate which is an almost guaranteed hit with quickness sigil (does not affect eviscerate itself but the setup before) after a stun as the opponent has to stunbreak first and then to dodge. Argumenting that eviscerate has such a huge telegraph brings up the question whether the warrior is the worse player here as he is not capable of setting up his bursts correctly.

 

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> The kick in Rampage has the fastest activation time out of any of them and thats just the one skill and its still a 1/2 second activation time.

A 1/2s cast time is not dodgeable in a real world scenario. The game has an overall 80ms lag for a very good internet connection (the value in the F11 window shows only a part of the lag) and human reaction time is about 100 to 200ms and that's just the time to react. Adding the situation analysis and making a decission what to do next, increases the reaction time to about half a second on top of the lag.

 

You will never **notice, interpret, make a decission and react properly** to a 1/2s cast time skill in GW2! No way!

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > So yeah, get rid of it. Maybe that's the first step that needs to be taken to make the defense line great again.

> That's the issue with warrior and spellbreaker. In PvP is was balanced long before the FC nerf. In WvW both specs are still broken as endure and defy pain last for 4 seconds to a total amount of 8s - enough time to win every single matchup. The higher cooldown is irrelevant as the spec offers enough kiting and rampage to cover this issue.

>

> Warriors are still the most seen class at duell spots. When I lost to them in WvW, it was not because FC did too much damage (it didn't even hit me), it was because the strengh traitline increases the overall damage too much. A spellbreaker that did not run strengh was beatable with some patience. I don't get that specific FC nerf as it's the spec mechanic. Maybe ANet somehow wanted to lower the impact, so that the opponent can decide to just eat it to save up a dodge for one of the other hardhitting or CC skills - which warrior has plenty of.

>

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > Are you telling me you *don't* see that Eviscerate coming?

> FC is way easier to dodge than eviscerate which is an almost guaranteed hit with quickness sigil (does not affect eviscerate itself but the setup before) after a stun as the opponent has to stunbreak first and then to dodge. Argumenting that eviscerate has such a huge telegraph brings up the question whether the warrior is the worse player here as he is not capable of setting up his bursts correctly.

>

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > The kick in Rampage has the fastest activation time out of any of them and thats just the one skill and its still a 1/2 second activation time.

> A 1/2s cast time is not dodgeable in a real world scenario. The game has an overall 80ms lag for a very good internet connection (the value in the F11 window shows only a part of the lag) and human reaction time is about 100 to 200ms and that's just the time to react. Adding the situation analysis and making a decission what to do next, increases the reaction time to about half a second on top of the lag.

>

> You will never **notice, interpret, make a decission and react properly** to a 1/2s cast time skill in GW2! No way!

 

 

Yes you will because I do it and other people do it. Also you're referencing the *one* skill I mention as having a 1/2 second activation time. The rest have 3/4 second or 1 second activation times and thats not including after casts or travel distance. You could bring up the argument of the warrior being the worse player for not setting up their eviscerates better, but the Agility sigil isn't used in typical scenarios when playing a warrior. Its simply not worth taking over using Sigil Vision and Sigil of Cleansing in WvW with Energy and Hydromancy on greatsword. In sPvP you're going to see Sigil of agility used more on greatsword in conjuction with sigil of energy due to hundred blades being a damage option if a Spellbreaker is using dagger. Core may use that over Vision in sPvP but you would be giving up a guaranteed eviscerate crit after swapping should you set up your combo right.

 

You're trying to pull a red herring, possibly unintentionally, by pointing out a single skill with a 1/2 second activation time on an Elite Skill that is not always available and trying to use that to support your point. You bring up that Warrior is still the most seen class at duel spots, and you're roughly right about that (I'd argue that Mirage shows up more but okay), and yes Tetherbreaker can be strong but it is also squishy. I'd argue that FC and Eviscerate are both equally easy to dodge, you bringing up that Quickness makes Eviscerate unbearable to try and dodge can easily be applied to FC and if Quickness was present when that procs. Quickness is not an easily available boon that Warriors have and just because a single sigil can apply it does not give you a strong basis as to your point when, in WvW, there are other *better* options to use that Warriors take advantage of. As telegraphed as their skills are what *I* personally find interesting about playing Core Warrior in WvW is how I need to be "clever" about how I put out my damage against good players. Sigil of Agility, or Rage, would not suddenly "fix" the issues or make Warrior too strong. If that were the case *everyone* would use the damn things with no questions asked.

[Sampson.2403]

Point of this thread has nothing to do with whether or not warrior is OP. It's about whether or not passive safety mechanics should exist in the game. Endure pain is just an example.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> Point of this thread has nothing to do with whether or not warrior is OP. It's about whether or not passive safety mechanics should exist in the game. Endure pain is just an example.

 

Then don't title and start the thread in the way that you did. You said *nothing* in your original post about this being about whether or not passive safety mechanics should exist in the game, you directly asked why Defy Pain is still there when they removed Elixir S passive. Its also ironic that a Mirage is the one making this thread, or questioning it, to begin with.

[Emprer.7256]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> *polishes his nails*

lol

 

I would also like to see the passive adjusted as well.

 

[Derenaya.3479]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > Point of this thread has nothing to do with whether or not warrior is OP. It's about whether or not passive safety mechanics should exist in the game. Endure pain is just an example.

>

> Then don't title and start the thread in the way that you did. You said *nothing* in your original post about this being about whether or not passive safety mechanics should exist in the game, you directly asked why Defy Pain is still there when they removed Elixir S passive. Its also ironic that a Mirage is the one making this thread, or questioning it, to begin with.

 

Ehm he did? At least I understood his point.

 

‚‚Why is (e.g.) Endure Pain (a passive trait) still in the game when they removed Elixier S (a passive trait).‘‘ => Why did they only remove certain passive traits and not all of them.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Nah passive endure pain is dumb. The fact that strength based builds are playable right now is a huge blessing in that Warriors have a viable non-monkey build to play.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> Ehm he did? At least I understood his point.

>

> ‚‚Why is (e.g.) Endure Pain (a passive trait) still in the game when they removed Elixier S (a passive trait).‘‘ => Why did they only remove certain passive traits and not all of them.

 

Then should we be wondering why they replaced Elixir S (a passive trait) by Elixir E (an equally passive trait)? The point is that Elixir S, by the way it worked, was passively breaking the flow of the fight for the engineer while the traits that remain (_Endure pain, stoneform, instant reflexes, unholy sanctuary, versed in stone, earth embrace, virtous solace or even automated medical response_ and _Elixir E_) don't prevent you from fighting "actively".

 

The patch was only removing from the game traits that were "unfun" to play or play against. Traits that answered CC for CC or traits that passively locked you out of your ability to actively play fell into this category.

 

Comparing _endure pain_ and _elixir S_ is really comparing apple and orange. One lock you out of active gameplay, while the other don't. One could be seen as being passively punished by your own traits and thus being unfun to "play", while the other don't affect the way you play.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> ‚‚Why is (e.g.) Endure Pain (a passive trait) still in the game when they removed Elixier S (a passive trait).‘‘ => Why did they only remove certain passive traits and not all of them.

Because endure/defy pain has a much bigger impact on warrior sustain than double elixier s on engineer sustain. Engineer has a much more versatile defensive arsenal than warrior. The latter would need further adjustments (e.g. more blocks) which the balancing team was obviously not capable of doing yet.

 

/threadclose

[Derenaya.3479]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > Ehm he did? At least I understood his point.

> >

> > ‚‚Why is (e.g.) Endure Pain (a passive trait) still in the game when they removed Elixier S (a passive trait).‘‘ => Why did they only remove certain passive traits and not all of them.

>

> Then should we be wondering why they replaced Elixir S (a passive trait) by Elixir E (an equally passive trait)? The point is that Elixir S, by the way it worked, was passively breaking the flow of the fight for the engineer while the traits that remain (_Endure pain, stoneform, instant reflexes, unholy sanctuary, versed in stone, earth embrace, virtous solace or even automated medical response_ and _Elixir E_) don't prevent you from fighting "actively".

>

> The patch was only removing from the game traits that were "unfun" to play or play against. Traits that answered CC for CC or traits that passively locked you out of your ability to actively play fell into this category.

>

> Comparing _endure pain_ and _elixir S_ is really comparing apple and orange. One lock you out of active gameplay, while the other don't. One could be seen as being passively punished by your own traits and thus being unfun to "play", while the other don't affect the way you play.

 

I actually did wonder why they didn‘t just remove the whole passive trait but instead added another effect but that‘s apparently just how they want the game to be so yeah...

 

And yeah I can see your argument, still not fun to play against it as a power profession. Idk I just don‘t like the passive mechanics, could be that I‘m just to biased from the MMO I played before tho.

[Artaz.3819]

Honestly the PvP version of Endure Pain is meh at just 2s in length... It's taken by almost every Warrior build because Defense line is basically still required and the other options in Master are just 'OK'.

 

I honestly think that ANet simply forgot that the Defy Pain trait was there or couldn't get to a 'balanced' Warrior trait option by the time the update happened.

[Sampson.2403]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > Point of this thread has nothing to do with whether or not warrior is OP. It's about whether or not passive safety mechanics should exist in the game. Endure pain is just an example.

>

> Then don't title and start the thread in the way that you did. You said *nothing* in your original post about this being about whether or not passive safety mechanics should exist in the game, you directly asked why Defy Pain is still there when they removed Elixir S passive. Its also ironic that a Mirage is the one making this thread, or questioning it, to begin with.

 

In my original post i say (and any other similar trait).

[Ario.8964]

Passive endure pain on war and instant reflexes on thief were both overlooked in the patch. Either they haven't thought of a good replacement trait for it yet, forgot about them, or are waiting to remove them until damage is reduced to avoid the classes getting one shot by all the absurd damage in game.

 

Note: I'm not justifying them existing, I think any passive damage immunities should be removed as they carry bad players. However, knowing anet, one of my listed reasons is probably correct and hopefully they'll fix those next balance patch and then work on reducing damage so the game isn't just 1 shot and invuln spam everywhere.

[Hitman.5829]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > > because warrior is a melee class.

> > > > Give warrior 1200 range in great sword auto attacks (like revenant hammer throw) and then you can take endure pain out of the game.

> > > > Give high mobility on range weapons for warrior and then we will not need endure pain.

> > > > Give us teleports and stealth then we will not need endure pain.

> > >

> > > You can have 50 endure pains for all i care so long as they require you to push a key to activate them. Passive safetys are the issue here.

> >

> > You do understand that being a melee class you are susceptible to the first burst in damage right?

> > For example: warrior vs ranger who hits first? The ranger. Now if you block with shield, then ranger can use unblockables to counter it, so either way warrior is going to hit first and hit hard. If you remove endure pain from auto casting, then by the time you reach the ranger, your health will be below 50% .

> >

> > Every range class has the initial DPS burst advantage on warrior; that is why warrior needs auto casting endure pain.

> > Like I said, remove auto endure pain but give us

> > * GS melee 1200 range (like revenant hammer)

> > * Teleports and high mobility on range weapons

> > * Give all our melee weapons 900 + range

> >

> > Then we will be able to do damage at the start of the fight and we will not need auto endure pain cast.

> > Now, in WvW that is a different thing. Endure pain is a must and auto casting will never be removed from that mode or else's warrior will become useless.

>

> I still don't see how any of this justifies a passive safety.

>

> EDIT - Why is the "auto-cast" necessary. In your example, if a ranger is bursting down a warrior from a distance, why does the warrior need an auto-casting endure pain versus actively pushing it? It feels funny asking this question given the fact that the warrior actually does have several things that he can actively do to mitigate the rangers damage but that's besides the point.

 

Well, looks like you dont play warrior. Warrior has access to a trait that activates endure pain if the health drops below 50%.

This is done to protect the melee warrior from getting 1 shot. Without this trait, warrior will die instantly to high range damage.

Also in WvW blob fights, auto casting endure pain is necessary to maintain the warrior alive because warrior is always in the front of the damage.

 

And if you don't believe me, go to WvW without auto endure pain and you will see that everyone will 1 shot you from far away.

In blob fights you will not have time to react because the damage is so huge that you will instantly go down.

 

It is very easy to complain about endure pain auto cast, but first try to play without it to see how it affects warrior survival.