Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > > How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands? > > Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends. > > > > And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though. > > > >  > > > > > > Uh oh, that gap between highlands and new map doesn’t look nearly big enough for another map... does it give anyone else incredibly intense OCD at the mere thought of not one day mapping every last inch of the map? > > Edit: also yeah, that’s fricking monstrous! About as big of a gap as between Domain of Vabbi and... any other map, wouldn't you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenom.9457 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > > > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > > > How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands? > > > Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends. > > > > > > And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though. > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > Uh oh, that gap between highlands and new map doesn’t look nearly big enough for another map... does it give anyone else incredibly intense OCD at the mere thought of not one day mapping every last inch of the map? > > > > Edit: also yeah, that’s fricking monstrous! > > About as big of a gap as between Domain of Vabbi and... any other map, wouldn't you say? Hmm maybe so. I always wanted that gap around vabbi to be a raid map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > >and Zhaitan was nothing more than look big dragon shoot it with canons till it dies.. > > > Ignoring the entire Orr campaign where we cut it off from its food sources and intel gathering minions leaving it nearly powerless and blind before we fought it. > > > > > > > > > > Blind and hungry maybe but certainly not powerless. > > Zhaitan was unfortuantely the victim of time constraints and technical limitations.. all bravado but little threat which is why the entire fight was more or less kill minions and watch cutscenes. > > Many of us look back on Zhaitan with disappointment but forgive it due to the early days of the game and all that. > > > > Mordremoth on the other hand was far better handled mechanically, visually.. he really did feel like an Elder Dragon in the Dragon Stand Meta. > > But he was a little disappointing in the story mostly down to how we work out his weakness, formulate a plan and destroy him all in the final story instance while we've already started the final assault against him.. > > That was just ridiculous.. and a lot of players criticized it. > > I mean, "how well fed they are" for Elder Dragons is far more directly linked to how strong they are. It was more than just killing Eyes and Mouths though. We also cut off Zhaitan's connection to the five temples, each teeming with magic, as well as the Artesian Waters, which seems to be one of *the* strongest magical hotposts in Central Tyria. In addition to that, we learn in Arah Seer path that the Six Gods had weakened Zhaitan while it slept by siphoning magic from it to empower the Bloodstone when they shattered it into five pieces. On top of that, the weaponry used against Zhaitan was based off of Gorr's, Snaff's/Kudu's, and the Tequatl Megalaser research on Elder Dragon vulnerability, specifically focused towards risen/Zhaitan magic. > > I agree that the Zhaitan fight was disappointing, but in all honesty, other than Anet shoehorning in "unique weaknesses" later on and having to asspull a weakness for Zhaitan ("over-reliance on specialized minions caused a direct vulnerability to Zhaitan by killing said specialized minions") the fact Zhaitan was so weak actually was explained right away, both in the presentation up until, as well as in the immediate aftermath after. And that explanation wasn't too bad. > > Mordremoth's weakness and counterplanning presentation, I also agree, was horrible. That fight was more a win of luck than anything, as the Commander just rushed in without a plan and happened to rush in at the same time the Pact was futilely trying to kill Mordremoth. > > Hopefully ArenaNet learned from their mistake, but unless we're facing Kralkatorrik off in this episode, I don't think a loss is necessary or even a good thing. I mean, we already had two confrontations with Kralkatorrik where we lost in some manner - first at the end of Path of Fire, where our actions strengthened Kralkatorrik, and then at the end of episode 4 where we lost Blish. > > Given the trailer, I'm expecting another face-to-face confrontation with Kralkatorrik in this episode, but not as the main battle. And after four face-to-face meetings, having the main confrontation be a total loss would just be sour. It'd be like if we caught up to Balthazar during Beast of War, and he was scripted to win after all. We fought him four times already by that point, with a stalemate, a victory, and two losses, but still get forced to lose a third time. Would that honestly feel good to you? > > Sure as hell wouldn't to me. And I'm a fan of bittersweet stories where the hero dies in the end. Well better than killing an Elder Dragon in the living world rather than an expansion. Should he fall here an now it diminishes the need for expanions in my opinion, they'll more or less be restricted to big mechanical additions rather than epic story conclusions as they should be. Killing dragons in living world pretty much gives me the impression that expansions are unnecessary and while it's good to have big epic story moments in the living world I've always felt that these moments are at their best when they set up expansions thus getting us players very exited about the upcoming expansion. Taking such important players off the field for expansion content such as Elder Dragons doesn't inspire much confidence as to this games lifespan. Many of us tend to feel that with 4 dragons remaining we've at least 4 expansions to look forward to in the future.. thus 4 new elite specs per class and 4 batches of new masteries, content dumps and maps etc but if they can be thrown out in the living world then that holds no weight any longer and makes us wonder after 7 years.. how much longer we'll get to enjoy new story content. What if 2 years from now all the dragons are gone.. and only 1 new expansion has been released.. that would be a colossal disappointment in my opinion. They need to be saved for expansions imo or the very concept of Elder dragons being the main antagonists and biggest threats in Gw2 is just wasted. There's much more potential in a loss right now than a win. The fallout of Kralkatorrik could be huge.. one example being Aurine being branded thus sending us seeking out the Forgotten finally bringing them to the world in order to bring Aurine back just like they did with her mother which was a huge moment in Guildwars History that we never got to witness and still holds a lot of mystery. A loss could also see us forced to flee the continent into Cantha or a new region entirely and open up so much potential there while we wait for Aurine to grow and develop the power she needs to defeat Kralkatorrik which will lead to an even bigger encounter with him later on in an expansion. If we kill him now we loose him forever as a threat and gain an Elder Dragon ally who could potentially act as our get out and win card every time we're in trouble. Either that or because she'll be OP and godlike she'll have to be written out such as going to sleep which will suck and deprive us of a popular character that still has so much to offer. 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Fenom.9457 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Where the hell id this thing? Should already be live Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands? > Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends. > > And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though. > >  > wooooosh, if they did maintain the same scale as Mount Maelstron, this is gonna be massively big(i hope so). its seems twice the size of timberline falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Well better than killing an Elder Dragon in the living world rather than an expansion. > Should he fall here an now it diminishes the need for expanions in my opinion, they'll more or less be restricted to big mechanical additions rather than epic story conclusions as they should be. > Killing dragons in living world pretty much gives me the impression that expansions are unnecessary and while it's good to have big epic story moments in the living world I've always felt that these moments are at their best when they set up expansions thus getting us players very exited about the upcoming expansion. To be fair, ArenaNet never had interest in expansions. They wanted to do nothing but continuous Living World updates from the get go. They just didn't have a good system, and needed an expansion to reignite interest and income. And besides that, ArenaNet already confirmed months ago that "big events" won't be restricted to expansions anymore, starting with Season 4/5. So it's pretty much guaranteed that we'll kill Kralkatorrik before whenever expansion 3 is. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Many of us tend to feel that with 4 dragons remaining we've at least 4 expansions to look forward to in the future.. thus 4 new elite specs per class and 4 batches of new masteries, content dumps and maps etc but if they can be thrown out in the living world then that holds no weight any longer and makes us wonder after 7 years.. how much longer we'll get to enjoy new story content. You're the first I've ever seen suggest this. Most folks I've seen, in fact, stated they're tired of the "one dragon = one paid release" style since Mordremoth. And you're making it sound like the game cannot, and will not, have focuses other than the Elder Dragons. Despite the fact our previous expansion was about something other than an Elder Dragon. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > What if 2 years from now all the dragons are gone.. and only 1 new expansion has been released.. that would be a colossal disappointment in my opinion. Depends on how its done, in all honesty. Two years from now would mean Season 5 and, most likely, both expansion 3 and Season 6 are done (or nearly so). Expansion 4 could be on the horizon, and by "gone", it could simply mean "Primordus and Jormag are still asleep", meaning they could come back, but on top of that, with the game still going, we're doing new plots, not a constant return to Glint's Legacy over, and over, and over again as we deal with dragon, and dragon, and dragon again. And to me, that would be better than "one expansion for every elder dragon". > @"Teratus.2859" said: > The fallout of Kralkatorrik could be huge.. The fallout of Kralkatorrik winning is a game over, pure and simple. The plot has been established to the point that if we do not kill Kralkatorrik ASAP, there is no living for anyone in the world. Not even fleeing to Cantha would be an option. Having us survive a crushing defeat to Kralkatorrik would undermine **EVERYTHING** about episode 4's revelations. And that would be worse than if we killed Kralkatorrik in All or Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Well better than killing an Elder Dragon in the living world rather than an expansion. > > Should he fall here an now it diminishes the need for expanions in my opinion, they'll more or less be restricted to big mechanical additions rather than epic story conclusions as they should be. > > Killing dragons in living world pretty much gives me the impression that expansions are unnecessary and while it's good to have big epic story moments in the living world I've always felt that these moments are at their best when they set up expansions thus getting us players very exited about the upcoming expansion. > > To be fair, ArenaNet never had interest in expansions. They wanted to do nothing but continuous Living World updates from the get go. They just didn't have a good system, and needed an expansion to reignite interest and income. > Expansions are important for income but more importantly for big content dumps which is something this community has been asking for since HoT.. One of the biggest complaints is that the expansions don't deliver enough content. Living world being free is great but Anet should take advantage of expansions for both financial gain and community demand. If there's one thing I see often is Gw2 fans wanting to support this game financially.. through gem store.. expansions.. hell I even see people literally asking for an optional sub fee.. seriously. > And besides that, ArenaNet already confirmed months ago that "big events" won't be restricted to expansions anymore, starting with Season 4/5. So it's pretty much guaranteed that we'll kill Kralkatorrik before whenever expansion 3 is. > True and we can have that although it's still smart to save certain antagonists deaths for expansions. Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world. The dragons can and should be part of the living world and I for one would love to have multiple encounters with them. I would certainly have loved to have had a few scraps with Zhaitan and Mordremoth before finally putting them down.. and I don't mean just their minions but them too. Kralk has been delivering on this since Path of Fire and I've very much enjoyed each encounter with him directly even when not directly fighting him.. (escaping the mists was very fun) > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Many of us tend to feel that with 4 dragons remaining we've at least 4 expansions to look forward to in the future.. thus 4 new elite specs per class and 4 batches of new masteries, content dumps and maps etc but if they can be thrown out in the living world then that holds no weight any longer and makes us wonder after 7 years.. how much longer we'll get to enjoy new story content. > > You're the first I've ever seen suggest this. Most folks I've seen, in fact, stated they're tired of the "one dragon = one paid release" style since Mordremoth. And you're making it sound like the game cannot, and will not, have focuses other than the Elder Dragons. Despite the fact our previous expansion was about something other than an Elder Dragon. > I've spoken to many others who feel a dragons death in the living world would be a waste. We can have many lesser antagonists as great villains for the living world.. just look at Joko. But an expansion doesn't need to focus on killing a dragon either like PoF didn't although Kralkatorrik was important to that story too. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > What if 2 years from now all the dragons are gone.. and only 1 new expansion has been released.. that would be a colossal disappointment in my opinion. > > Depends on how its done, in all honesty. Two years from now would mean Season 5 and, most likely, both expansion 3 and Season 6 are done (or nearly so). Expansion 4 could be on the horizon, and by "gone", it could simply mean "Primordus and Jormag are still asleep", meaning they could come back, but on top of that, with the game still going, we're doing new plots, not a constant return to Glint's Legacy over, and over, and over again as we deal with dragon, and dragon, and dragon again. And to me, that would be better than "one expansion for every elder dragon". > I expect the third expansion will be out by then.. I highly doubt Anet will do another living world directly after season 6.. people will likely be asking why no expansion? if that's the case. The dragons can only die if they're replacable.. the story has made this very clear and Kralkatorrik is the only one we can even do that with right now. Glint's legacy will end with his death.. and I expect Primordus and Jormag are off the table right now because there is no plan to deal with them (the main reason why Kralkatorrik is the only one who's active) Glint is only related to one dragon as is Aurine so I am more than willing to bet that neither of them will be relevant when dealing with the other 3 dragons. I expect the Norn will be the main focus when we deal with Jormag.. and the Asura will be the main focus with Primordus (maybe Tengu too) Sea Dragon I expect will be saved for Canthan based content. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > The fallout of Kralkatorrik could be huge.. > > The fallout of Kralkatorrik winning is a game over, pure and simple. The plot has been established to the point that if we do not kill Kralkatorrik ASAP, there is no living for anyone in the world. Not even fleeing to Cantha would be an option. > > Having us survive a crushing defeat to Kralkatorrik would undermine **EVERYTHING** about episode 4's revelations. > > And that would be worse than if we killed Kralkatorrik in All or Nothing. Depends on how the new story content ends.. (I expect we both know by now but I don't want to spoil anything for anyone) This is my main point though.. the way they've bigged up Kralkatorrik has been fantastic and his threat level has been on an entirely different level to any of the other dragons. To loose with so much on the line is far more interesting than destroying him. Kralkatorrik has been potrayed as unstoppable and nothing will solidify that feeling more than suffering a massive defeat to him. That's the main reason I want to loose this battle and experience the many different consequences it could bring. One of the biggest being how our reputation could suffer and the commander is thrown into a world where instead of being praised and admired by most as we have been for the entire game since the personal story more or less.. we're now held responsible for failing and potentially dooming the world.. Joko himself stated that we're not the hero the world thinks we are and in many way's we're the bad guy. It'll be good to see that come around and have many in the world feel the same way about us.. everyone loves a good redemption story right? And having suffered such a huge loss to Kralkatorrik and enduring the hardships of it.. it will make his eventual death all the more satisfying. That's why I want to loose.. and that's why I feel killing him now would be a waste.. there's so much more story potential if we loose this battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Expansions are important for income but more importantly for big content dumps which is something this community has been asking for since HoT.. > One of the biggest complaints is that the expansions don't deliver enough content. > Living world being free is great but Anet should take advantage of expansions for both financial gain and community demand. > If there's one thing I see often is Gw2 fans wanting to support this game financially.. through gem store.. expansions.. hell I even see people literally asking for an optional sub fee.. seriously. Ironically enough, I feel confident in believing the content quantity is exactly why we're going from Season 4 to Season 5. And the plot demands going after Kralkatorrik now, even before they hyped him in A Star to Guide Us. All that to say, just because we may fell an Elder Dragon in a Living World episode, doesn't mean expansion become any less important or prominent in their plots. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world. See, I don't get this argument. Why is it a waste? You say "because it doesn't feel right". My only reaction is [this]( ). And never anything else. You say living world having big events would lessen expansions. But would you say HoT or PoF were lessened by the fact that a major player hub got totally wrecked in the living world? I would argue no. The idea seems to stem from the belief that the living world releases are "lesser" to an expansion. But as I see it, the only difference - especially now that ArenaNet is no longer nicely compacting the episodes with their own neat little tidy conclusion (just look at the ending of Episodes 4; technically 5 too) - is that an expansion allows you to play through the whole plot in one singular go, instead of forcing you to wait bit by bit. And to me, that's not reason enough to argue they are at all lesser. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > I expect the third expansion will be out by then.. I highly doubt Anet will do another living world directly after season 6.. people will likely be asking why no expansion? if that's the case. > The dragons can only die if they're replacable.. the story has made this very clear and Kralkatorrik is the only one we can even do that with right now. > Glint's legacy will end with his death.. and I expect Primordus and Jormag are off the table right now because there is no plan to deal with them (the main reason why Kralkatorrik is the only one who's active) > Glint is only related to one dragon as is Aurine so I am more than willing to bet that neither of them will be relevant when dealing with the other 3 dragons. > I expect the Norn will be the main focus when we deal with Jormag.. and the Asura will be the main focus with Primordus (maybe Tengu too) > Sea Dragon I expect will be saved for Canthan based content. Well, I got multiple disagreements here, but this segment is off-topic. If you want to continue, feel free to PM me. I wouldn't mind tossing theories and interpretations and hopes and dreams back and forth. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Depends on how the new story content ends.. (I expect we both know by now but I don't want to spoil anything for anyone) > This is my main point though.. the way they've bigged up Kralkatorrik has been fantastic and his threat level has been on an entirely different level to any of the other dragons. > To loose with so much on the line is far more interesting than destroying him. > Kralkatorrik has been potrayed as unstoppable and nothing will solidify that feeling more than suffering a massive defeat to him. > That's the main reason I want to loose this battle and experience the many different consequences it could bring. > One of the biggest being how our reputation could suffer and the commander is thrown into a world where instead of being praised and admired by most as we have been for the entire game since the personal story more or less.. we're now held responsible for failing and potentially dooming the world.. > Joko himself stated that we're not the hero the world thinks we are and in many way's we're the bad guy. > It'll be good to see that come around and have many in the world feel the same way about us.. everyone loves a good redemption story right? > And having suffered such a huge loss to Kralkatorrik and enduring the hardships of it.. it will make his eventual death all the more satisfying. > That's why I want to loose.. and that's why I feel killing him now would be a waste.. there's so much more story potential if we loose this battle. I'll leave a link to [this spoiler thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/793818/#Comment_793818) for my thoughts about the ending. But I don't consider it the loss you're wanting it to be per se, because I doubt we'll be seeing that "having to recover while Kralkatorrik rampages for an entire season and expansion". I am still 110% certain we'll kill him in the next episode (unless ArenaNet pulls a fast one and makes the season seven episodes long; if so, then we'll kill him in episode 7). Honestly, if ArenaNet were to leave Kralkatorrik gaining power for several episodes still, let alone an entire season an expansion, all for us to kill him, then the build up would be like the battle against Lonai in A Bug in the System - starts fun, becomes epic, then turns silly due to over-the-topness. It'd be like bringing in a world-ender, and killing him with a bb gun, because at that level of hyping him up, there should be nothing capable of stopping him short of reversing time itself (and by that point, Kralkatorrik would have no doubt reached the Rift and have access to all time and space anyways so even *that* wouldn't be possible). Also, Joko is a big arse liar and his very reasoning for "why people so easily believed his taking credit for killing Elder Dragons" was total BS, as great as the voicing for the speech was. But his speech was just the recent in a long line of ArenaNet habituation "the hero saves the day and it's better than if the bad guys won, but the world is still worse off than where it was when the plot began, in large thanks to the hero's actions." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world. > > See, I don't get this argument. Why is it a waste? You say "because it doesn't feel right". My only reaction is [this]( ). And never anything else. > > You say living world having big events would lessen expansions. But would you say HoT or PoF were lessened by the fact that a major player hub got totally wrecked in the living world? I would argue no. > That's not what I said.. Living world can have big events and should have them.. but the death of something like an Elder Dragon or God is by far one of the biggest and most impactful things that can possibly happen in the game in terms of lore. These kinds of moments are so important that they both need and deserve to be as big and as epic as they possibly can be.. and I don't believe the living world is the right place for that. Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no. Joko's demise despite being great could have been even better if we'd actually had more of the moon fortress to explore.. I believe I even heard that the devs originally planned that location to be much bigger and more explorable but due to time constraints had to limit that area. Living world just has too many restrictions.. even now when it's better than it's ever been it is still restricted by time a lot more than expansions are. Should we ever fell a dragon in the living world it will never be big and as epic as it could have been in an expansion.. of that I firmly believe. But thankfully Gw2 has proven with Balthazar, Joko and Kralkatorrik that we can have multiple enjoyable encounters with these villains before putting them down so I am completely ok if not excited by having some of these encounters go badly and actually loosing them. > The idea seems to stem from the belief that the living world releases are "lesser" to an expansion. But as I see it, the only difference - especially now that ArenaNet is no longer nicely compacting the episodes with their own neat little tidy conclusion (just look at the ending of Episodes 4; technically 5 too) - is that an expansion allows you to play through the whole plot in one singular go, instead of forcing you to wait bit by bit. > > And to me, that's not reason enough to argue they are at all lesser. > Living world is far more time restricted than expansions.. sure we can have a chapter delayed every now and then and I do support the devs when they do this but overall this does make the living world lesser for it. I don't particularly like saying they are lesser though.. the living world has been phenominal these last few years specially compared to the first year but expansions are still better to have for those big content dumps and our continued support of this game. I don't enjoy waiting months for new content I literally complete on the day it's released.. and it's because most of us do this that new living world maps often end up with grind based rewards/content which were very common in season 2 and 3. Unbound Magic.. the various map currencies and Karma sinks.. these were not particularly recieved well after the first few maps and it made them feel quite grindy and the reward costs feel quite excessive. There's only so many times most can run the same events over and over before they start getting bored and wanting to leave and never come back to that map again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world. > > > > See, I don't get this argument. Why is it a waste? You say "because it doesn't feel right". My only reaction is [this]( ). And never anything else. > > > > You say living world having big events would lessen expansions. But would you say HoT or PoF were lessened by the fact that a major player hub got totally wrecked in the living world? I would argue no. > > > That's not what I said.. Living world can have big events and should have them.. but the death of something like an Elder Dragon or God is by far one of the biggest and most impactful things that can possibly happen in the game in terms of lore. > These kinds of moments are so important that they both need and deserve to be as big and as epic as they possibly can be.. and I don't believe the living world is the right place for that. As I said before. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no. I mean, Dragon's Stand was basically a lane variant of Silverwastes in design, and Vabbi has nothing special going for it, and of course I think the final confrontations that happen in those maps can be a living world release, so I'm going to give a full resounding yes. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Joko's demise despite being great could have been even better if we'd actually had more of the moon fortress to explore.. I believe I even heard that the devs originally planned that location to be much bigger and more explorable but due to time constraints had to limit that area. Did we play the same Episode 3? Joko's death was pathetically cliched and ultimately a gag death. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Living world just has too many restrictions.. even now when it's better than it's ever been it is still restricted by time a lot more than expansions are. The only restrictions it has, is time and duration. Expansions have that same issue, just a larger scale of it. I mean, HoT suffered from them completely. LW releases will from time to time, and sometimes they won't (like I'd argue Ep4 and 5 didn't seem to suffer from any restrictions), but the same will go towards expansions. What will prevent these restrictions from effecting releases is not the size of the release, but ArenaNet's scope for the release, and their planning capabilities. To the rest, we're just going in circles. Ultimately, like I said, it falls down to opinion. Not fact like you're presenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no. Judging by the latest episodes, sure. The final fight of episode five might have been easier mechanically than the last battle in PoF, but there was a lot more going on in the presentation. Expansions are basically clusters of LS content bundled with features they believe people will pay for (mounts, e-specs, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no. > I mean, Dragon's Stand was basically a lane variant of Silverwastes in design, and Vabbi has nothing special going for it, and of course I think the final confrontations that happen in those maps can be a living world release, so I'm going to give a full resounding yes. > Significantly bigger than Silverwastes not to mention a significantly bigger and more complex boss at the end than a flower that you can't even attack directly. Sorry but the Vinewrath battle is nothing compared to Mordremoth.. sure there are similarities in the map design/concept but I firmly believe that a map like Dragonstand would never have been possible as a living world release back then... none of the HoT maps would have been possible as living world. PoF map designs are much simpler but there's not really that much you can do with a desert in all honesty.. thier size was far more important than their complexity due to mounts. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Joko's demise despite being great could have been even better if we'd actually had more of the moon fortress to explore.. I believe I even heard that the devs originally planned that location to be much bigger and more explorable but due to time constraints had to limit that area. > > Did we play the same Episode 3? Joko's death was pathetically cliched and ultimately a gag death. > They could have dragged him out longer by making us loose to him a few more times but I thought you didn't like that idea.. Joko wasn't around for that long admittedly but he was fantastic. Sure he brought some comedy to the game but that's just who he is, his death was one of the best cutscene segments in the game thus far and final fight with him was pretty enjoyable as well. I think a lot of people would agree that they prefer him as a character over Balthazar or any of the other humanoid villians like Caudicus and Lazarus. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Living world just has too many restrictions.. even now when it's better than it's ever been it is still restricted by time a lot more than expansions are. > The only restrictions it has, is time and duration. Expansions have that same issue, just a larger scale of it. I mean, HoT suffered from them completely. LW releases will from time to time, and sometimes they won't (like I'd argue Ep4 and 5 didn't seem to suffer from any restrictions), but the same will go towards expansions. What will prevent these restrictions from effecting releases is not the size of the release, but ArenaNet's scope for the release, and their planning capabilities. > > To the rest, we're just going in circles. Ultimately, like I said, it falls down to opinion. Not fact like you're presenting. Well Episode 5 took almost a whole month longer to release, part due to the holiday events but I expect they needed that extra development time considering the content we got (which was very good) The big difference between an expansion and living world is that up until an expansions release the entire expansion load of content can be tweaked and improved where needed before the release. Living world cannot once an episode has been released and the Moon Fortress is a good example of this. Fans asked if the devs would revisit the Gandara map and improve the meta event there and the explorable area of the moon fortress and I recall they said something like focusing on new content rather than going back and reworking disapointing elements of previous releases. It's a statement they regularly make when conversations about old content come up such as personal story and living world 1 reworks.. Personally this is one of the biggest issues I have with the Gw2 dev teams and I find that attitude to be pretty disappointing in all honesty. I'm fine with having new content delayed if the benefit is fixing and improving old content from time to time.. I really dislike when older content feels abandoned just because the devs want to push something new out asap. Expansions are handled far better in this regard as there is a bigger time frame for improvements and fixes between the release of an expansion and the start of a new living world season. For the living world.. once a new chapter releases the previous one pretty much gets brushed aside like it doesn't really matter anymore and the devs rarely ever go back to that content again even if it has a lot of potential. Add to that due to the nature of a living world release no new release can force the player to return to a previous release's location and map.. I don't need to tell anyone that because of this a significantly large amount of iconic locations in the Guildwars Franchise have become utterly useless after being used only once.. Thunderhead keep and the Forge, Sunspear refuge, Moon fortress, Gandara, Bloodstone Fen, Istan... We'll never be able to have new additional content in these iconic places because of the living world and how it works.. and that is severely disappointing to a huge fan like me. That does not apply in the same way to expansions which for every living world season before the next expanion new story content in said living world episodes can utalize any location in any of the expansion maps at any time.. we've seen this multiple times in Season 4 already because the developers know that everyone playing this living world content will need to have those expansion maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Significantly bigger than Silverwastes not to mention a significantly bigger and more complex boss at the end than a flower that you can't even attack directly. > Sorry but the Vinewrath battle is nothing compared to Mordremoth.. sure there are similarities in the map design/concept but I firmly believe that a map like Dragonstand would never have been possible as a living world release back then... none of the HoT maps would have been possible as living world. > PoF map designs are much simpler but there's not really that much you can do with a desert in all honesty.. thier size was far more important than their complexity due to mounts. > I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I agree that SW pales to DS, but Season 4 maps dwarf SW and are now on par with HoT and core maps in terms of size. Amala, Inquest Specimen Chamber, and Death-Branded Shatterer are all three more complex than Vinewrath and even Octovine and Chak Gerent. But SW proves that they can create a map that focuses almost solely on its meta while providing an episodic story. And that's what I was getting at. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > They could have dragged him out longer by making us loose to him a few more times but I thought you didn't like that idea.. > Joko wasn't around for that long admittedly but he was fantastic. > Sure he brought some comedy to the game but that's just who he is, his death was one of the best cutscene segments in the game thus far and final fight with him was pretty enjoyable as well. > I think a lot of people would agree that they prefer him as a character over Balthazar or any of the other humanoid villians like Caudicus and Lazarus. You got the opposite. I prefered he was the focus of all of Season 4's six episodes, and that we confronted him and lost or walked away thinking he was dead when he wasn't. But I was talking about his actual death. The "Aurene tackles him from an impossible location out of nowhere for a quick shock gag monologue-interrupting joke" death. A death that was very unbefitting Joko, especially after his "I won't fight you personally" speech in Rata Primus, where he... lures us into fighting him personally... All that, after utterly devastatingly destroying the build up about the Scarab Plague with the illogical BS of "it only infects humans, oh and the Commander is immune even if they're human". > Fans asked if the devs would revisit the Gandara map and improve the meta event there and the explorable area of the moon fortress and I recall they said something like focusing on new content rather than going back and reworking disapointing elements of previous releases. > It's a statement they regularly make when conversations about old content come up such as personal story and living world 1 reworks.. > Personally this is one of the biggest issues I have with the Gw2 dev teams and I find that attitude to be pretty disappointing in all honesty. This is an issue with the developer's philosophy, not big events being in the LW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Significantly bigger than Silverwastes not to mention a significantly bigger and more complex boss at the end than a flower that you can't even attack directly. > > Sorry but the Vinewrath battle is nothing compared to Mordremoth.. sure there are similarities in the map design/concept but I firmly believe that a map like Dragonstand would never have been possible as a living world release back then... none of the HoT maps would have been possible as living world. > > PoF map designs are much simpler but there's not really that much you can do with a desert in all honesty.. thier size was far more important than their complexity due to mounts. > > I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. > > I agree that SW pales to DS, but Season 4 maps dwarf SW and are now on par with HoT and core maps in terms of size. Amala, Inquest Specimen Chamber, and Death-Branded Shatterer are all three more complex than Vinewrath and even Octovine and Chak Gerent. > > But SW proves that they can create a map that focuses almost solely on its meta while providing an episodic story. And that's what I was getting at. > Yeah they can.. though with the map sizes growing so much it's probably not as easy to do it. Designing a large map around the same concept of pushing into one giant battle with a huge opponant is far more complicated than what we're currently getting in living world. Specially if that boss is to be largely animated which it will probably need to be. Death Branded Shatterer was great and all but it was just a reskin of the original model and reusing most if not all of the old models animations too. If they had had to create that world boss from scratch I expect it would have taken a lot longer to get that patch out.. or they might not have bothered putting the boss in at all. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > They could have dragged him out longer by making us loose to him a few more times but I thought you didn't like that idea.. > > Joko wasn't around for that long admittedly but he was fantastic. > > Sure he brought some comedy to the game but that's just who he is, his death was one of the best cutscene segments in the game thus far and final fight with him was pretty enjoyable as well. > > I think a lot of people would agree that they prefer him as a character over Balthazar or any of the other humanoid villians like Caudicus and Lazarus. > > You got the opposite. I prefered he was the focus of all of Season 4's six episodes, and that we confronted him and lost or walked away thinking he was dead when he wasn't. > I would have been ok with that as well. > But I was talking about his actual death. The "Aurene tackles him from an impossible location out of nowhere for a quick shock gag monologue-interrupting joke" death. A death that was very unbefitting Joko, especially after his "I won't fight you personally" speech in Rata Primus, where he... lures us into fighting him personally... > > All that, after utterly devastatingly destroying the build up about the Scarab Plague with the illogical BS of "it only infects humans, oh and the Commander is immune even if they're human". > She came in through the open windows behind him and ambushed him. I actually enjoyed that moment, Joko's final cutscene is one of the best in the game imo specially the speech up until his demise. Joko was many things.. and his joker-esque personality is what made him so entertaining. It's rather fitting his death was funny considering he was a comical villain in general. The commander was immune to it because we had died in PoF.. Although the idea it only effects humans isn't that bad, considering his targets for unleashing the plague were mostly human targets (Elona, Kryta etc) Conquering the human kingdoms and reviving them into awakened would have been enough for Joko to have gained a dominant presence in Tyria and an army big enough to wipe out the Asura, Sylvari and Norn without much effort, and adding those races to his ranks as well would probably have been enough to wipe out the Charr too. > > Fans asked if the devs would revisit the Gandara map and improve the meta event there and the explorable area of the moon fortress and I recall they said something like focusing on new content rather than going back and reworking disapointing elements of previous releases. > > It's a statement they regularly make when conversations about old content come up such as personal story and living world 1 reworks.. > > Personally this is one of the biggest issues I have with the Gw2 dev teams and I find that attitude to be pretty disappointing in all honesty. > > This is an issue with the developer's philosophy, not big events being in the LW. It's both.. as I said the Gandara meta could have been bigger and better if the devs had delayed the patch to get it done right which they should have done. But they didn't and now that part of the game will always be lacking as a result and the location could be regarded as wasted. If you ask me what the devs should be doing with living world maps is making the maps always availabe.. just the maps. By all means lock the story behind timed living world but when new maps are added they should be added to the core game for everyone to be able to access through a teleport to friend even if they don't have the living world chapter that introduced the map. If they did this then one of the living worlds biggest restrictions (only using a map location once for one living world release) wouldn't be a problem anymore and the developers could use any living world map location as many times as they wish for new story content which is something that's only done with expansion maps and core maps.. because those are the only ones the developers can guarantee people playing their current living world content have access to.. They can't very well have a story instance in All or Nothing take us back to Jahai or Istan because they cannot guarantee that everyone playing All or Nothing has Daybreak and A Star to Guide us unlocked on their account.. and the last thing they want is people playing current content being locked out of the story because they missed a living world release a few months back. That is a big problem for them which is why they never re-use living world maps and it's one of the living worlds biggest restrictions in it's current form. Making just the maps available to everyone who owns the core game would fix that problem though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > She came in through the open windows behind him and ambushed him. > I actually enjoyed that moment, Joko's final cutscene is one of the best in the game imo specially the speech up until his demise. > Joko was many things.. and his joker-esque personality is what made him so entertaining. > It's rather fitting his death was funny considering he was a comical villain in general. The camera was **literally** facing those open windows. Her angle comes from the side, to our right, which is a big ol' wall with a bunch of tar. His death wasn't funny, it was a poor use of the sudden-death-during-speech gag, that wasn't really funny. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > The commander was immune to it because we had died in PoF.. > Although the idea it only effects humans isn't that bad, considering his targets for unleashing the plague were mostly human targets (Elona, Kryta etc) > Conquering the human kingdoms and reviving them into awakened would have been enough for Joko to have gained a dominant presence in Tyria and an army big enough to wipe out the Asura, Sylvari and Norn without much effort, and adding those races to his ranks as well would probably have been enough to wipe out the Charr too. The immunity coming out of literally freaking nowhere. Resurrection wasn't super rare centuries ago, there should have been a few that had been resurrected during the plague. And the idea the Scarab Plague, which are native parasitic insects in Elona, only being capable of incubating in a race that is foreign to the world, is bad. Firstly, how did they even evolve, let alone come out of nowhere. Secondly, no parasite is capable of incubating in only one species - some prefer one species over another, yes, but none are incapable of living off of only one species. Thirdly, and this is the worst part of it, devs confirmed that only humans were effected because they come from another world, so why are non-Elonian races like norn and asura also immune since they'd never get exposure? I can understand hylek and centaurs and harpies being immune. Hell, it'd make sense for Elonian humans to be immune as they could develop a resistance from Istan's previous exposure. I could even buy charr being immune due to the subtle hints of their presence in Elona in GW1 via the Awakened Defilers. But that argument being used and norn and asura being immune don't make any sense. Plus, it completely devastatingly destroyed all that build up with Joko having a plague that could wipe out all of Tyria and Elona if he wanted it to. It turned what was literally **THE** most horrific and devastating moments in GW's history, literally **THE** most devastating non-bacterial plague, and made it practically a non-threatening non-issue. Next, let's bring back the Afflicted and threaten to expose it to the heart of Lion's Arch, but oh, it only affects Canthan humans. > It's both.. as I said the Gandara meta could have been bigger and better if the devs had delayed the patch to get it done right which they should have done. > But they didn't and now that part of the game will always be lacking as a result and the location could be regarded as wasted. Except Episode 3 was delayed. It did get more time. But they didn't expand Gandara, not because of lack of time, but likely because they had no intention to expand it more than what we got. > If you ask me what the devs should be doing with living world maps is making the maps always availabe.. just the maps. > By all means lock the story behind timed living world but when new maps are added they should be added to the core game for everyone to be able to access through a teleport to friend even if they don't have the living world chapter that introduced the map. I agree. It's one of the better things from Season 2. Maps were available to all, and were expanded over time when need-be. Season 3 maps should all be available to those who own HoT, imo. And Season 4 maps available to all who own PoF. And the maps could be expanded when the story requests such. However, I do not think this at all is related to, or relevant with, killing massive villains like Kralkatorrik in the LW plots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Plus, it completely devastatingly destroyed all that build up with Joko having a plague that could wipe out all of Tyria and Elona if he wanted it to. It turned what was literally **THE** most horrific and devastating moments in GW's history, literally **THE** most devastating non-bacterial plague, and made it practically a non-threatening non-issue. I mean, the beetles still voraciously killed non-humans. Ep 2 showed that, and PCs of any race take damage from them. They just weren't as successful at reproducing. Technically, it means they're a threat to anyone in an area populated by humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arden.7480 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 I think I cracked this "out of nowhere bit". Aurene can use a stealth mode, remember her in Precocious Aurene? Also Caithe must have taught her some stealthy and sneaky tricks, because as the commander says: Caithe raised her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > She came in through the open windows behind him and ambushed him. > > I actually enjoyed that moment, Joko's final cutscene is one of the best in the game imo specially the speech up until his demise. > > Joko was many things.. and his joker-esque personality is what made him so entertaining. > > It's rather fitting his death was funny considering he was a comical villain in general. > > The camera was **literally** facing those open windows. Her angle comes from the side, to our right, which is a big ol' wall with a bunch of tar. His death wasn't funny, it was a poor use of the sudden-death-during-speech gag, that wasn't really funny. > Each to their own there.. I personally found it funny for two reasons. 1. I wasn't expecting it. 2. I enjoy it when the bad guy dies in a horrible way ^^ and what better way to go than being ripped apart and eaten by a dragon. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > The commander was immune to it because we had died in PoF.. > > Although the idea it only effects humans isn't that bad, considering his targets for unleashing the plague were mostly human targets (Elona, Kryta etc) > > Conquering the human kingdoms and reviving them into awakened would have been enough for Joko to have gained a dominant presence in Tyria and an army big enough to wipe out the Asura, Sylvari and Norn without much effort, and adding those races to his ranks as well would probably have been enough to wipe out the Charr too. > The immunity coming out of literally freaking nowhere. Resurrection wasn't super rare centuries ago, there should have been a few that had been resurrected during the plague. > That was different.. that was people being revived by the living through magic bestowed by the gods.. that magic no longer exists and the gods have left the world. We came back through a different method.. apparently we're the only one who's done so. For the most part resurection is a mechanic not something to take too seriously in the lore. But if you want a reason as to why victims of the plague were not revived well the most likely reason is that their corpses still carried the plague scarabs and they would have died again and again each time they were revived not to mention those who revived them would likely have been infected too. The game explained our immunity through our death.. the scarabs don't infect the dead only the living which raises a few questions as to whether we are actually alive or some kind of undead. > And the idea the Scarab Plague, which are native parasitic insects in Elona, only being capable of incubating in a race that is foreign to the world, is bad. Firstly, how did they even evolve, let alone come out of nowhere. Secondly, no parasite is capable of incubating in only one species - some prefer one species over another, yes, but none are incapable of living off of only one species. Thirdly, and this is the worst part of it, devs confirmed that only humans were effected because they come from another world, so why are non-Elonian races like norn and asura also immune since they'd never get exposure? > Wish I could answer that but there is very little information about the original plague so unfortuantely it's all speculation. My best guess is that the plague isn't native to Tyria but rather something that was brought with the original humans, passed down and evolved over time or something from a foreign land that crossed into humans and became what it was or perhaps something that was artificially created by a namelss villain of the past.. Suffice to say I cannot answer this.. nobody can until the developers create a more fleshed out backstory for it. > Plus, it completely devastatingly destroyed all that build up with Joko having a plague that could wipe out all of Tyria and Elona if he wanted it to. It turned what was literally **THE** most horrific and devastating moments in GW's history, literally **THE** most devastating non-bacterial plague, and made it practically a non-threatening non-issue. > Well we stopped it.. sure it probably would have been a far more interesting story had Joko been successful and caused an epidemic but aside from massive amounts of dead NPC's we don't really care about that wouldn't have been worth doing tbh. Plagues are kinda dull as a big story tbh.. I much prefer unstopable monsters. > Next, let's bring back the Afflicted and threaten to expose it to the heart of Lion's Arch, but oh, it only affects Canthan humans. > The afflicted were not contagious nor were they a plague technically.. they were created, mutated into monsters by Shiro. I'd be glad to see them again in Guildwars but since Shiro is dead it's highly unlikely. > > It's both.. as I said the Gandara meta could have been bigger and better if the devs had delayed the patch to get it done right which they should have done. > > But they didn't and now that part of the game will always be lacking as a result and the location could be regarded as wasted. > > Except Episode 3 was delayed. It did get more time. But they didn't expand Gandara, not because of lack of time, but likely because they had no intention to expand it more than what we got. > I'd put my money on time more than lack of intention. There's only so long they can delay a release.. and when it comes to a delay they have to give priority to what's most important. I doubt improving Meta events are at the top of that last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > That was different.. that was people being revived by the living through magic bestowed by the gods.. that magic no longer exists and the gods have left the world. > We came back through a different method.. apparently we're the only one who's done so. > For the most part resurection is a mechanic not something to take too seriously in the lore. > But if you want a reason as to why victims of the plague were not revived well the most likely reason is that their corpses still carried the plague scarabs and they would have died again and again each time they were revived not to mention those who revived them would likely have been infected too. > The game explained our immunity through our death.. the scarabs don't infect the dead only the living which raises a few questions as to whether we are actually alive or some kind of undead. The way we resurrected sounds a lot like how Shiro resurrected, though in slightly different means, and sounds like how the Flame Legion planned on resurrecting Gaheron. It all dumbs down to "excess of life force to jumpstart living again". That's probably how the monk and ritualist spells worked too, even if different than "kill a demon who's been gorging on souls to release all that life force to imbue your corpse with life." I wasn't talking about the victims of the plague, btw, but rather people before the plague hit. Surely *someone* at *somepoint* in Istan was resurrected before the plague hit, if it was so common around GW1's time that [the fact adventurers can mess up resurrection and be fine](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reyna#Dialogue) is canon lore (Droknar's Forge explorable area dialogue). And there was no need to explain our immunity at all, imo. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Well we stopped it.. sure it probably would have been a far more interesting story had Joko been successful and caused an epidemic but aside from massive amounts of dead NPC's we don't really care about that wouldn't have been worth doing tbh. > Plagues are kinda dull as a big story tbh.. I much prefer unstopable monsters. We'd stop it regardless, I'm sure, if not just contain it to a singular small zone, but that doesn't mean the drama and impact of needing to stop it was destroyed by the fact that "oh, it's not that harmful after all". > @"Teratus.2859" said: > The afflicted were not contagious nor were they a plague technically.. they were created, mutated into monsters by Shiro. > I'd be glad to see them again in Guildwars but since Shiro is dead it's highly unlikely. Well, miasma was a thing that spread it. It was both, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > I wasn't talking about the victims of the plague, btw, but rather people before the plague hit. Surely *someone* at *somepoint* in Istan was resurrected before the plague hit, if it was so common around GW1's time that [the fact adventurers can mess up resurrection and be fine](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reyna#Dialogue) is canon lore (Droknar's Forge explorable area dialogue). Who's to say they hadn't? We've never heard that _everyone_ on Istan died, just that the population was spooked enough to abandon the island. In fact, didn't we learn about the fact that we were immune from either Nahlah or Dahlah? They'd have had to learn that from somewhere. Granted, all sorts of other bits of the expanded plague lore have issues, up to and including beetles being able to smell and recognize the Domain of the Lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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