Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? Again, missing the important detail of my argument. If a spellbreaker pops FC mere frames before another attack lands (1-6 frames, which by the way is very easy to do for a seasoned player who has a good grasp on frame-durations) you will not see the obvious tell of FC for long enough to discern that they're using full-counter and be able to dodge. What you do see is frame or two of yellow particles appearing around the spell-breaker, followed by a yellow flash (the counter-strike) 0.25 to 0.5 seconds later. Here, I'll actually use some evidence to back up my argument: Method: try watching literally any spell-breaker video on youtube right now. Find a clip where you have a clean use of FC (1v1, you can clearly see the attack that triggers it). Start your stop watch the moment you see an attack strike full-counter, then stop it as soon as you see the yellow flash go out. If the opponent is in melee range, better - stop your watch the moment you see numbers pop up (opponent taking damage). Result: It seems to be 0.25 seconds exactly. I timed two different clips of FC being used, each with a sample size of 10. Average = 0.25 ± 0.03 and 0.25± 0.05s respectively. Confounding variables: How precise is my stop-watch? Well I have used it to time team mates in swim meets and was only ever off by about 0.1 to 0.17 seconds at most. How did I correct for my own human reaction time? I replayed the same clip over and over until I became accustomed to when an attack struck FC and exactly when damage was taken from FC. I included 10 data points that involved starting and stopping at these times as precisely as I could manage. Range: 0.22 to 0.27 seconds. Conclusion: Sorry mister super human. Faster. Than. Reaction. Speed. > @Caedmon.6798 said: > Lets assume im a billionaire and never have to work a day in my life again. Apparently, since you can't be bothered to even half-ass an argument in response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? > > Again, missing the important detail of my argument. If a spellbreaker pops FC mere frames before another attack lands (1-6 frames, which by the way is very easy to do for a seasoned player who has a good grasp on frame-durations) you will not see the obvious tell of FC for long enough to discern that they're using full-counter and be able to dodge. What you do see is frame or two of yellow particles appearing around the spell-breaker, followed by a yellow flash (the counter-strike) 0.25 to 0.5 seconds later. > > Here, I'll actually use some evidence to back up my argument: > > Method: try watching literally any spell-breaker video on youtube right now. Find a clip where you have a clean use of FC (1v1, you can clearly see the attack that triggers it). Start your stop watch the moment you see an attack strike full-counter, then stop it as soon as you see the yellow flash go out. If the opponent is in melee range, better - > stop your watch the moment you see numbers pop up (opponent taking damage). > > Result: It seems to be 0.25 seconds exactly. I timed two different clips of FC being used, each with a sample size of 10. Average = 0.25 ± 0.03 and 0.25± 0.05s respectively. > > Confounding variables: How precise is my stop-watch? Well I have used it to time team mates in swim meets and was only ever off by about 0.1 to 0.17 seconds at most. How did I correct for my own human reaction time? I replayed the same clip over and over until I became accustomed to when an attack struck FC and exactly when damage was taken from FC. I included 10 data points that involved starting and stopping at these times as precisely as I could manage. > > Range: 0.22 to 0.27 seconds. > > Conclusion: Sorry mister super human. Faster. Than. Reaction. Speed. > > > @Caedmon.6798 said: > > > Lets assume im a billionaire and never have to work a day in my life again. > > Apparently, since you can't be bothered to even half-kitten an argument in response. Full Counter is no different than Mace 2. If you are skilled and time Full Counter just right, you are rewarded. If you use Full Counter a little too early, an enemy can proc it then dodge, or not proc it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > > > > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? > > > > Again, missing the important detail of my argument. If a spellbreaker pops FC mere frames before another attack lands (1-6 frames, which by the way is very easy to do for a seasoned player who has a good grasp on frame-durations) you will not see the obvious tell of FC for long enough to discern that they're using full-counter and be able to dodge. What you do see is frame or two of yellow particles appearing around the spell-breaker, followed by a yellow flash (the counter-strike) 0.25 to 0.5 seconds later. > > > > Here, I'll actually use some evidence to back up my argument: > > > > Method: try watching literally any spell-breaker video on youtube right now. Find a clip where you have a clean use of FC (1v1, you can clearly see the attack that triggers it). Start your stop watch the moment you see an attack strike full-counter, then stop it as soon as you see the yellow flash go out. If the opponent is in melee range, better - > > stop your watch the moment you see numbers pop up (opponent taking damage). > > > > Result: It seems to be 0.25 seconds exactly. I timed two different clips of FC being used, each with a sample size of 10. Average = 0.25 ± 0.03 and 0.25± 0.05s respectively. > > > > Confounding variables: How precise is my stop-watch? Well I have used it to time team mates in swim meets and was only ever off by about 0.1 to 0.17 seconds at most. How did I correct for my own human reaction time? I replayed the same clip over and over until I became accustomed to when an attack struck FC and exactly when damage was taken from FC. I included 10 data points that involved starting and stopping at these times as precisely as I could manage. > > > > Range: 0.22 to 0.27 seconds. > > > > Conclusion: Sorry mister super human. Faster. Than. Reaction. Speed. > > > > > @Caedmon.6798 said: > > > > > Lets assume im a billionaire and never have to work a day in my life again. > > > > Apparently, since you can't be bothered to even half-kitten an argument in response. > > Full Counter is no different than Mace 2. If you are skilled and time Full Counter just right, you are rewarded. If you use Full Counter a little too early, an enemy can proc it then dodge, or not proc it at all. Yeah he even just described a scenario in which the Spellbreaker is playing smart and knows their stuff. It...really doesn't help their side of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > Full Counter is no different than Mace 2. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > Full Counter is no different than Mace 2. > Lol He isn't wrong. Lasts for about the same duration, counter attacks at the same speed and has about the same amount of damage.   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > Full Counter is no different than Mace 2. > > Lol > > He isn't wrong. Lasts for about the same duration, counter attacks at the same speed and has about the same amount of damage. >  > >  > Yeaaa.... but it's also single target, melee range, blockable, doesn't quite hit as hard, doesn't daze, doesn't transfer condis, doesn't grant boons has a longer cool down... It can also be counterplayed by blocking, using an attack then suddenly running in an unexpected direction (since it's melee range afterall), hitting the warrior with an unblockable attack, or honestly just eating it and counter-bursting because this is definitely an attack you can trade with. Look, I'm all about FC rewarding excellent gameplay and in the right hands FC does but it also shuts down counterplay simultaneously which is why it should receive small nerfs. If the time in between block and counterstrike for FC was increased to 0.75, or even 0.5s, would that really ruin spellbreaker? Fact of the matter is if you walk into an aoe field and hit F2, the only people who have a remote chance of being able to dodge the counter-strike a half second later are ones who are specifically watching for the spellbreaker/waiting for FC and have the endurance left to do so. That's pretty balanced if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > Let me get this straight... After a full year of warriors being the fodder of wvw and the laughing stock of spvp, you guys are mad that now for 2 weeks we are actually experiencing what you had for a YEAR? > > > > "Waaahhh we are not the UltraOP anymore, now because we aren't at the top we decided it's not fair" > > Just look at metabattle.com it has only one build in PvP meta. What's that? Your build. Wonder why not scourge? Because it's actually killable spec and dealing massive damage just like Spellbreaker but scourge has no survavibility. > > And btw warriors were in meta last 2 seasons before PoF. Warriors have consistently been bar none the weakest class in sPvP until now. They've always had serious troubles with proper sustain and condition cleanse and all their attacks have really obvious tells making them very easy to negate. There were something like 4 dragon hunters in the top 10 last season. Necros were also very strong. There were something like 5 warriors in the top 250 last season. Regardless of the tuning of Spellbreaker right now, spreading falsehoods in support of your position is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholy Pillager.3791 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Zeghart.9841 said: > > @Amadeus.5687 said: > > Im not talking about shatter dmg, that counts for dmg done by the mesmer! > > Im talking about thr silly auto attacks clones do that deal 5ish dmg, triggers the kitten thing! something I as a player have zero control over! > > it simply not okay, that full counter gets triggered by that! cause again, that just leads to spellbreakers spamming FC whenever its off CD... > > of cause it needs to trigger on shatters! ☺ > > Now if my clones randomly did not trigger full counter I might have time to try trigger it with blurrred frenzy myself... > > To be fair, that can be a double edged sword: If I was a Spellbreaker and I wasted my Full Counter block on a measly 15 damage hit by a clone - especially if the mesmer then dodges the counterdamage after or is simply out of range - I'd be pretty pissed. > > But I understand the frustration of not having control of the trigger, just as much as I dislike that Spellbreakers are pretty much guaranteed to activate Full Counter during teamfights due to how easy it is to simply jump into an AoE. It's definitely an issue that should be looked into, even though it might be a bit counterintuitive to balance. Having Full Counter be unaffected by clones while letting phantasms be able to trigger it could be a tad confusing. If you block a clone's attack, the FC activation is very likely to kill all of their active illusions. So, for a skill with 6.5 second cooldown, you quite possibly just destroyed pretty much all of your opponent's offensive potential, cleanse, etc. for the next 15 seconds (the shortest cooldown for an illusion-generating skill they use likely being ~8 seconds, with the average closer to 15). That isn't exactly a waste, especially since missing a FC isn't actually punished (seriously, 6.5 second cooldown on a defensive utility is _amazing_, especially with how much other defensive utility you get). > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > > > Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations. > > > > > > What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is **not** instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual **attack** is 1 and a half seconds. > > > > I suggest you take your own advice and test it. 1.5s is the total amount of time the full counter block animation will play for. AKA you have 1.5s to absorb a hit or else you don't deal the strike. The situation that both he and I are talking about is as follows: > > > > Imagine a ranger is using rapid-fire on you and you manage to close the gap while rapidfire is still going off. Lets say you pop full counter, then about 1-6 frames later, you are hit by an arrow. Then lets also assume you aren't affected by quickness and the ranger does NOT dodge and eats FC. The total amount of time between when you pressed f2 and when the ranger takes damage is about 0.25 to 0.5s. You know what the average human reflex time is? 0.26 to 0.3s. Then you factor in average click-to-action latency (about 0.07 to 0.16s). Oh, and this is all assuming that the ranger who is about to trigger FC stopped attacked so that they aren't locked into part of an animation which would delay dodge.. Sorry bud, but it's faster than human reaction time as is every other skill in the game that can land in 0.25 to 0.5s after casted. Hell, even Spear of Justice on dragonhunter with its 0.75s cast time is still mildly difficult to dodge in 1v1s. > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? If you see them put it up and intentionally trigger it, of course you'll be able to dodge it. If not, then either you have the cooldown memorized (i.e. you've used it so much yourself that you know the timing of it, and so you're already about to dodge when they get it off cooldown and activate it), or you have exceptionally good reflexes and/or low latency. People with moderate or higher latency will have no chance to dodge it if they are already attacking when their target activates the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said: > > @Zeghart.9841 said: > > > @Amadeus.5687 said: > > > Im not talking about shatter dmg, that counts for dmg done by the mesmer! > > > Im talking about thr silly auto attacks clones do that deal 5ish dmg, triggers the kitten thing! something I as a player have zero control over! > > > it simply not okay, that full counter gets triggered by that! cause again, that just leads to spellbreakers spamming FC whenever its off CD... > > > of cause it needs to trigger on shatters! ☺ > > > Now if my clones randomly did not trigger full counter I might have time to try trigger it with blurrred frenzy myself... > > > > To be fair, that can be a double edged sword: If I was a Spellbreaker and I wasted my Full Counter block on a measly 15 damage hit by a clone - especially if the mesmer then dodges the counterdamage after or is simply out of range - I'd be pretty pissed. > > > > But I understand the frustration of not having control of the trigger, just as much as I dislike that Spellbreakers are pretty much guaranteed to activate Full Counter during teamfights due to how easy it is to simply jump into an AoE. It's definitely an issue that should be looked into, even though it might be a bit counterintuitive to balance. Having Full Counter be unaffected by clones while letting phantasms be able to trigger it could be a tad confusing. > > If you block a clone's attack, the FC activation is very likely to kill all of their active illusions. So, for a skill with 6.5 second cooldown, you quite possibly just destroyed pretty much all of your opponent's offensive potential, cleanse, etc. for the next 15 seconds (the shortest cooldown for an illusion-generating skill they use likely being ~8 seconds, with the average closer to 15). That isn't exactly a waste, especially since missing a FC isn't actually punished (seriously, 6.5 second cooldown on a defensive utility is _amazing_, especially with how much other defensive utility you get). > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > > > > Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations. > > > > > > > > What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is **not** instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual **attack** is 1 and a half seconds. > > > > > > I suggest you take your own advice and test it. 1.5s is the total amount of time the full counter block animation will play for. AKA you have 1.5s to absorb a hit or else you don't deal the strike. The situation that both he and I are talking about is as follows: > > > > > > Imagine a ranger is using rapid-fire on you and you manage to close the gap while rapidfire is still going off. Lets say you pop full counter, then about 1-6 frames later, you are hit by an arrow. Then lets also assume you aren't affected by quickness and the ranger does NOT dodge and eats FC. The total amount of time between when you pressed f2 and when the ranger takes damage is about 0.25 to 0.5s. You know what the average human reflex time is? 0.26 to 0.3s. Then you factor in average click-to-action latency (about 0.07 to 0.16s). Oh, and this is all assuming that the ranger who is about to trigger FC stopped attacked so that they aren't locked into part of an animation which would delay dodge.. Sorry bud, but it's faster than human reaction time as is every other skill in the game that can land in 0.25 to 0.5s after casted. Hell, even Spear of Justice on dragonhunter with its 0.75s cast time is still mildly difficult to dodge in 1v1s. > > > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? > > If you see them put it up and intentionally trigger it, of course you'll be able to dodge it. If not, then either you have the cooldown memorized (i.e. you've used it so much yourself that you know the timing of it, and so you're already about to dodge when they get it off cooldown and activate it), or you have exceptionally good reflexes and/or low latency. People with moderate or higher latency will have no chance to dodge it if they are already attacking when their target activates the skill. But that's how Full Counter is supposed to be used. The Spellbreaker is rewarded for timing Full Counter to counter an enemy attack. The Spellbreaker gets punished for mistiming it. I don't think the issue is Full Counter. I think the issue is how Full Counter interacts with the Defense line and Shield. The Spellbreaker can just turtle until Full Counter is up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > > > Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations. > > > > > > What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is **not** instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual **attack** is 1 and a half seconds. > > > > I suggest you take your own advice and test it. 1.5s is the total amount of time the full counter block animation will play for. AKA you have 1.5s to absorb a hit or else you don't deal the strike. The situation that both he and I are talking about is as follows: > > > > Imagine a ranger is using rapid-fire on you and you manage to close the gap while rapidfire is still going off. Lets say you pop full counter, then about 1-6 frames later, you are hit by an arrow. Then lets also assume you aren't affected by quickness and the ranger does NOT dodge and eats FC. The total amount of time between when you pressed f2 and when the ranger takes damage is about 0.25 to 0.5s. You know what the average human reflex time is? 0.26 to 0.3s. Then you factor in average click-to-action latency (about 0.07 to 0.16s). Oh, and this is all assuming that the ranger who is about to trigger FC stopped attacked so that they aren't locked into part of an animation which would delay dodge.. Sorry bud, but it's faster than human reaction time as is every other skill in the game that can land in 0.25 to 0.5s after casted. Hell, even Spear of Justice on dragonhunter with its 0.75s cast time is still mildly difficult to dodge in 1v1s. > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? It is called prediction and a bit of luck. For instance we all have dodged steal many times, doesn't mean we actually reacted to the animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Sartharina.3542 said: > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > @BurrTheKing.8571 said: > > > > The most i would accept is a 10 second CD and have the daze only got the one who triggered it. Anything more and you'll destroy the sped and make it useless in all modes. > > > > > > This. > > > > > > People seem to think that Warrior shouldn't be viable. They just don't want to learn how to kite a melee class, so instead they cry and cry until anet nerfs and it becomes a trash class for the next season. This is because warrior is a class that has no stealth and is almost entirely confined to single target melee damage, as opposed to being able to 12345 a billion ranged AoE abilities like many of the other classes. As a result of these limitations, Warrior *has* to be tough to kill or else it immediately becomes fodder. > > > > > > Hopefully anet has learned to ignore the over-reaction people have this time. > > > > Yeah, as if any class but thief or druid could actually kite a greatsword warrior. Nobody's buying your BS. > > > > A necro isn't going to kite a warrior, a guardian isn't going to kite a warrior. An engineer is not going to kite a warrior, and especially an elementalist isn't going to kite a warrior. > > > > Drop the crap. > > Elementalist can't kite a warrior? what league are you in, bronze?! > > Engineer has plenty of tools to kite a warrior, or otherwise shut it down. Guardians can go toe-to-toe with warriors with a 50/50 chance of winning. > > Necros don't kite warriors - they just feed those boons right back to them, while laughing off the Warrior's attempts to scratch their excessive health (Barrier/Shroud). If you really think Warrior can't crap all over > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said: > > > @Zeghart.9841 said: > > > > @Amadeus.5687 said: > > > > Im not talking about shatter dmg, that counts for dmg done by the mesmer! > > > > Im talking about thr silly auto attacks clones do that deal 5ish dmg, triggers the kitten thing! something I as a player have zero control over! > > > > it simply not okay, that full counter gets triggered by that! cause again, that just leads to spellbreakers spamming FC whenever its off CD... > > > > of cause it needs to trigger on shatters! ☺ > > > > Now if my clones randomly did not trigger full counter I might have time to try trigger it with blurrred frenzy myself... > > > > > > To be fair, that can be a double edged sword: If I was a Spellbreaker and I wasted my Full Counter block on a measly 15 damage hit by a clone - especially if the mesmer then dodges the counterdamage after or is simply out of range - I'd be pretty pissed. > > > > > > But I understand the frustration of not having control of the trigger, just as much as I dislike that Spellbreakers are pretty much guaranteed to activate Full Counter during teamfights due to how easy it is to simply jump into an AoE. It's definitely an issue that should be looked into, even though it might be a bit counterintuitive to balance. Having Full Counter be unaffected by clones while letting phantasms be able to trigger it could be a tad confusing. > > > > If you block a clone's attack, the FC activation is very likely to kill all of their active illusions. So, for a skill with 6.5 second cooldown, you quite possibly just destroyed pretty much all of your opponent's offensive potential, cleanse, etc. for the next 15 seconds (the shortest cooldown for an illusion-generating skill they use likely being ~8 seconds, with the average closer to 15). That isn't exactly a waste, especially since missing a FC isn't actually punished (seriously, 6.5 second cooldown on a defensive utility is _amazing_, especially with how much other defensive utility you get). > > > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > > > > > Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations. > > > > > > > > > > What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is **not** instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual **attack** is 1 and a half seconds. > > > > > > > > I suggest you take your own advice and test it. 1.5s is the total amount of time the full counter block animation will play for. AKA you have 1.5s to absorb a hit or else you don't deal the strike. The situation that both he and I are talking about is as follows: > > > > > > > > Imagine a ranger is using rapid-fire on you and you manage to close the gap while rapidfire is still going off. Lets say you pop full counter, then about 1-6 frames later, you are hit by an arrow. Then lets also assume you aren't affected by quickness and the ranger does NOT dodge and eats FC. The total amount of time between when you pressed f2 and when the ranger takes damage is about 0.25 to 0.5s. You know what the average human reflex time is? 0.26 to 0.3s. Then you factor in average click-to-action latency (about 0.07 to 0.16s). Oh, and this is all assuming that the ranger who is about to trigger FC stopped attacked so that they aren't locked into part of an animation which would delay dodge.. Sorry bud, but it's faster than human reaction time as is every other skill in the game that can land in 0.25 to 0.5s after casted. Hell, even Spear of Justice on dragonhunter with its 0.75s cast time is still mildly difficult to dodge in 1v1s. > > > > > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > > > > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? > > > > If you see them put it up and intentionally trigger it, of course you'll be able to dodge it. If not, then either you have the cooldown memorized (i.e. you've used it so much yourself that you know the timing of it, and so you're already about to dodge when they get it off cooldown and activate it), or you have exceptionally good reflexes and/or low latency. People with moderate or higher latency will have no chance to dodge it if they are already attacking when their target activates the skill. > > But that's how Full Counter is supposed to be used. The Spellbreaker is rewarded for timing Full Counter to counter an enemy attack. The Spellbreaker gets punished for mistiming it. I don't think the issue is Full Counter. I think the issue is how Full Counter interacts with the Defense line and Shield. The Spellbreaker can just turtle until Full Counter is up again. Spellbreaker does not get punished for missing FC, the evade frames are to thank for that. The worst thing to happen is you're both reset in the engagement. FC is at most on an 8 sec CD that takes one bar of adrenaline; you don't even need to turtle someone for something that readily available to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > @Sartharina.3542 said: > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > > @BurrTheKing.8571 said: > > > > > The most i would accept is a 10 second CD and have the daze only got the one who triggered it. Anything more and you'll destroy the sped and make it useless in all modes. > > > > > > > > This. > > > > > > > > People seem to think that Warrior shouldn't be viable. They just don't want to learn how to kite a melee class, so instead they cry and cry until anet nerfs and it becomes a trash class for the next season. This is because warrior is a class that has no stealth and is almost entirely confined to single target melee damage, as opposed to being able to 12345 a billion ranged AoE abilities like many of the other classes. As a result of these limitations, Warrior *has* to be tough to kill or else it immediately becomes fodder. > > > > > > > > Hopefully anet has learned to ignore the over-reaction people have this time. > > > > > > Yeah, as if any class but thief or druid could actually kite a greatsword warrior. Nobody's buying your BS. > > > > > > A necro isn't going to kite a warrior, a guardian isn't going to kite a warrior. An engineer is not going to kite a warrior, and especially an elementalist isn't going to kite a warrior. > > > > > > Drop the crap. > > > > Elementalist can't kite a warrior? what league are you in, bronze?! > > > > Engineer has plenty of tools to kite a warrior, or otherwise shut it down. Guardians can go toe-to-toe with warriors with a 50/50 chance of winning. > > > > Necros don't kite warriors - they just feed those boons right back to them, while laughing off the Warrior's attempts to scratch their excessive health (Barrier/Shroud). > > If you really think Warrior can't crap all over > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said: > > > > @Zeghart.9841 said: > > > > > @Amadeus.5687 said: > > > > > Im not talking about shatter dmg, that counts for dmg done by the mesmer! > > > > > Im talking about thr silly auto attacks clones do that deal 5ish dmg, triggers the kitten thing! something I as a player have zero control over! > > > > > it simply not okay, that full counter gets triggered by that! cause again, that just leads to spellbreakers spamming FC whenever its off CD... > > > > > of cause it needs to trigger on shatters! ☺ > > > > > Now if my clones randomly did not trigger full counter I might have time to try trigger it with blurrred frenzy myself... > > > > > > > > To be fair, that can be a double edged sword: If I was a Spellbreaker and I wasted my Full Counter block on a measly 15 damage hit by a clone - especially if the mesmer then dodges the counterdamage after or is simply out of range - I'd be pretty pissed. > > > > > > > > But I understand the frustration of not having control of the trigger, just as much as I dislike that Spellbreakers are pretty much guaranteed to activate Full Counter during teamfights due to how easy it is to simply jump into an AoE. It's definitely an issue that should be looked into, even though it might be a bit counterintuitive to balance. Having Full Counter be unaffected by clones while letting phantasms be able to trigger it could be a tad confusing. > > > > > > If you block a clone's attack, the FC activation is very likely to kill all of their active illusions. So, for a skill with 6.5 second cooldown, you quite possibly just destroyed pretty much all of your opponent's offensive potential, cleanse, etc. for the next 15 seconds (the shortest cooldown for an illusion-generating skill they use likely being ~8 seconds, with the average closer to 15). That isn't exactly a waste, especially since missing a FC isn't actually punished (seriously, 6.5 second cooldown on a defensive utility is _amazing_, especially with how much other defensive utility you get). > > > > > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > > > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > > > > > > Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is **not** instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual **attack** is 1 and a half seconds. > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you take your own advice and test it. 1.5s is the total amount of time the full counter block animation will play for. AKA you have 1.5s to absorb a hit or else you don't deal the strike. The situation that both he and I are talking about is as follows: > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a ranger is using rapid-fire on you and you manage to close the gap while rapidfire is still going off. Lets say you pop full counter, then about 1-6 frames later, you are hit by an arrow. Then lets also assume you aren't affected by quickness and the ranger does NOT dodge and eats FC. The total amount of time between when you pressed f2 and when the ranger takes damage is about 0.25 to 0.5s. You know what the average human reflex time is? 0.26 to 0.3s. Then you factor in average click-to-action latency (about 0.07 to 0.16s). Oh, and this is all assuming that the ranger who is about to trigger FC stopped attacked so that they aren't locked into part of an animation which would delay dodge.. Sorry bud, but it's faster than human reaction time as is every other skill in the game that can land in 0.25 to 0.5s after casted. Hell, even Spear of Justice on dragonhunter with its 0.75s cast time is still mildly difficult to dodge in 1v1s. > > > > > > > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > > > > > > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? > > > > > > If you see them put it up and intentionally trigger it, of course you'll be able to dodge it. If not, then either you have the cooldown memorized (i.e. you've used it so much yourself that you know the timing of it, and so you're already about to dodge when they get it off cooldown and activate it), or you have exceptionally good reflexes and/or low latency. People with moderate or higher latency will have no chance to dodge it if they are already attacking when their target activates the skill. > > > > But that's how Full Counter is supposed to be used. The Spellbreaker is rewarded for timing Full Counter to counter an enemy attack. The Spellbreaker gets punished for mistiming it. I don't think the issue is Full Counter. I think the issue is how Full Counter interacts with the Defense line and Shield. The Spellbreaker can just turtle until Full Counter is up again. > > Spellbreaker does not get punished for missing FC, the evade frames are to thank for that. The worst thing to happen is you're both reset in the engagement. FC is at most on an 8 sec CD that takes one bar of adrenaline; you don't even need to turtle someone for something that readily available to come back. Landing Full Counter refreshes Bursts and keeps momentum. Being able to Arcing Slice-->Full Counter-->Arcing Slice is a potentially 20k Damage AOE combo. Mess up Full Counter and you lose out on a lot of burst damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > > @Sartharina.3542 said: > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > > > @BurrTheKing.8571 said: > > > > > > The most i would accept is a 10 second CD and have the daze only got the one who triggered it. Anything more and you'll destroy the sped and make it useless in all modes. > > > > > > > > > > This. > > > > > > > > > > People seem to think that Warrior shouldn't be viable. They just don't want to learn how to kite a melee class, so instead they cry and cry until anet nerfs and it becomes a trash class for the next season. This is because warrior is a class that has no stealth and is almost entirely confined to single target melee damage, as opposed to being able to 12345 a billion ranged AoE abilities like many of the other classes. As a result of these limitations, Warrior *has* to be tough to kill or else it immediately becomes fodder. > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully anet has learned to ignore the over-reaction people have this time. > > > > > > > > Yeah, as if any class but thief or druid could actually kite a greatsword warrior. Nobody's buying your BS. > > > > > > > > A necro isn't going to kite a warrior, a guardian isn't going to kite a warrior. An engineer is not going to kite a warrior, and especially an elementalist isn't going to kite a warrior. > > > > > > > > Drop the crap. > > > > > > Elementalist can't kite a warrior? what league are you in, bronze?! > > > > > > Engineer has plenty of tools to kite a warrior, or otherwise shut it down. Guardians can go toe-to-toe with warriors with a 50/50 chance of winning. > > > > > > Necros don't kite warriors - they just feed those boons right back to them, while laughing off the Warrior's attempts to scratch their excessive health (Barrier/Shroud). > > > > If you really think Warrior can't crap all over > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said: > > > > > @Zeghart.9841 said: > > > > > > @Amadeus.5687 said: > > > > > > Im not talking about shatter dmg, that counts for dmg done by the mesmer! > > > > > > Im talking about thr silly auto attacks clones do that deal 5ish dmg, triggers the kitten thing! something I as a player have zero control over! > > > > > > it simply not okay, that full counter gets triggered by that! cause again, that just leads to spellbreakers spamming FC whenever its off CD... > > > > > > of cause it needs to trigger on shatters! ☺ > > > > > > Now if my clones randomly did not trigger full counter I might have time to try trigger it with blurrred frenzy myself... > > > > > > > > > > To be fair, that can be a double edged sword: If I was a Spellbreaker and I wasted my Full Counter block on a measly 15 damage hit by a clone - especially if the mesmer then dodges the counterdamage after or is simply out of range - I'd be pretty pissed. > > > > > > > > > > But I understand the frustration of not having control of the trigger, just as much as I dislike that Spellbreakers are pretty much guaranteed to activate Full Counter during teamfights due to how easy it is to simply jump into an AoE. It's definitely an issue that should be looked into, even though it might be a bit counterintuitive to balance. Having Full Counter be unaffected by clones while letting phantasms be able to trigger it could be a tad confusing. > > > > > > > > If you block a clone's attack, the FC activation is very likely to kill all of their active illusions. So, for a skill with 6.5 second cooldown, you quite possibly just destroyed pretty much all of your opponent's offensive potential, cleanse, etc. for the next 15 seconds (the shortest cooldown for an illusion-generating skill they use likely being ~8 seconds, with the average closer to 15). That isn't exactly a waste, especially since missing a FC isn't actually punished (seriously, 6.5 second cooldown on a defensive utility is _amazing_, especially with how much other defensive utility you get). > > > > > > > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > > > > > @KryTiKaL.3125 said: > > > > > > > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > > > > > > > Arc Diviner does not have a longer cast time than FC. Full Counter's 1.5 sec time is the duration of the skill, not the cast time; the cast is instant. If there is no tell between when the skill activates and when it begins to counter, then it is extremely difficult to predict and evade, especially if this was achieved through anything besides direct skill usage by you. No one is going to be able to react that quickly. Payoff for getting the skill to work is all well and good, but it is beyond easy to do in most situations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? No. Go into the PvP lobby and go test it. Get Full Counter to proc and watch for the cast bar when it does. It has a 1 and a half second activation time after the counter attack is triggered, it is **not** instant. You can check for these things yourself extremely easily. To activate the skill it is instant, sure, but the duration is 2 seconds, it just doesn't list it but the activation time of the actual **attack** is 1 and a half seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you take your own advice and test it. 1.5s is the total amount of time the full counter block animation will play for. AKA you have 1.5s to absorb a hit or else you don't deal the strike. The situation that both he and I are talking about is as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a ranger is using rapid-fire on you and you manage to close the gap while rapidfire is still going off. Lets say you pop full counter, then about 1-6 frames later, you are hit by an arrow. Then lets also assume you aren't affected by quickness and the ranger does NOT dodge and eats FC. The total amount of time between when you pressed f2 and when the ranger takes damage is about 0.25 to 0.5s. You know what the average human reflex time is? 0.26 to 0.3s. Then you factor in average click-to-action latency (about 0.07 to 0.16s). Oh, and this is all assuming that the ranger who is about to trigger FC stopped attacked so that they aren't locked into part of an animation which would delay dodge.. Sorry bud, but it's faster than human reaction time as is every other skill in the game that can land in 0.25 to 0.5s after casted. Hell, even Spear of Justice on dragonhunter with its 0.75s cast time is still mildly difficult to dodge in 1v1s. > > > > > > > > > > I must be superhuman then because I've dodged another Spellbreaker's Full Counter after triggering it. Oh and man, I must be going up against other superhuman individuals because they have triggered and dodged the damage from my Full Counter as well. Man, can I be a super hero? No wait...am I Kirito? > > > > > > > > > > No but really...it isn't faster than human reaction time. Also most animations, even cast/channeled abilities can be animation cancelled. Dodge is one of the main ways to do this with several abilities. So...what are you even going on about? > > > > > > > > If you see them put it up and intentionally trigger it, of course you'll be able to dodge it. If not, then either you have the cooldown memorized (i.e. you've used it so much yourself that you know the timing of it, and so you're already about to dodge when they get it off cooldown and activate it), or you have exceptionally good reflexes and/or low latency. People with moderate or higher latency will have no chance to dodge it if they are already attacking when their target activates the skill. > > > > > > But that's how Full Counter is supposed to be used. The Spellbreaker is rewarded for timing Full Counter to counter an enemy attack. The Spellbreaker gets punished for mistiming it. I don't think the issue is Full Counter. I think the issue is how Full Counter interacts with the Defense line and Shield. The Spellbreaker can just turtle until Full Counter is up again. > > > > Spellbreaker does not get punished for missing FC, the evade frames are to thank for that. The worst thing to happen is you're both reset in the engagement. FC is at most on an 8 sec CD that takes one bar of adrenaline; you don't even need to turtle someone for something that readily available to come back. > > Landing Full Counter refreshes Bursts and keeps momentum. Being able to Arcing Slice-->Full Counter-->Arcing Slice is a potentially 20k Damage AOE combo. Mess up Full Counter and you lose out on a lot of burst damage. That's not punishment, that's simply missing the prerequisites for the effects, like missing Steal. Punishing something is creating direct adverse effects to what you did, like confusion damaging you on skill use. You aren't negativity affected by missing FC aside from the loss of one bar of adrenaline. Pulm punishes skill use on interrupt, FC punishes attacking a spellbreaker, nothing equivalent happens when you miss FC or directly because you used FC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenaos.8160 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 And add a better telegraph while you are at it. This is what happens when skills are designed for PvE,and are just thrown in PvP# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Aenaos.8160 said: > And add a better telegraph while you are at it. > > This is what happens when skills are designed for PvE,and are just thrown in PvP# You think visual clutter is not an issue in PvE? Please go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Aenaos.8160 said: > And add a better telegraph while you are at it. > > This is what happens when skills are designed for PvE,and are just thrown in PvP# you think full counter is designed for PvE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Aenaos.8160 said: > This is what happens when skills are designed for PvE,and are just thrown in PvP# **Snide Chuckling Noises** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > Spellbreaker does not get punished for missing FC, the evade frames are to thank for that. The worst thing to happen is you're both reset in the engagement. FC is at most on an 8 sec CD that takes one bar of adrenaline; you don't even need to turtle someone for something that readily available to come back. You are punished because you whiffed your most important attack. Same with any other attack. Fighting Games have survived for years with characters that have counter attack skills just like full counter without them breaking the game from Street Fighter, to BlazBlue, to Dead or Alive to Smash Bros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caedmon.6798 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Kitten.4162 said: > Go to any dueling server and look at how many warriors there are bashing skulls in while back pedalling and using their heal skill while counter is on CD and tell me to l2play LUL You actually think the qqers about spellbreaker bothered to duel them properly ? I bet most of them got killed in teamfights and start complaing.I can understand some that offer some valid concerns,only after they can say they have actually tried to duel and see how to counter the spec. @Amityel, Rather have 4 dh's again ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknicrofia.2604 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @mortrialus.3062 said: > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > Spellbreaker does not get punished for missing FC, the evade frames are to thank for that. The worst thing to happen is you're both reset in the engagement. FC is at most on an 8 sec CD that takes one bar of adrenaline; you don't even need to turtle someone for something that readily available to come back. > > You are punished because you whiffed your most important attack. Same with any other attack. Fighting Games have survived for years with characters that have counter attack skills just like full counter without them breaking the game from Street Fighter, to Blaze Blue, to Dead or Alive to Smash Bros. Cool, let me know when sPvP becomes a game mode of only 1v1 and not 5v5. Counter attacks work in arcade style fighting games because they reward actually landing a counter and punishes the attacker, why should the attacker be punished when the defender counters a hedgehog in the background and the attacker that had nothing to do with the defender v hedgehog get blasted by the full counter attack damage/stun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVJD.4912 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @witcher.3197 said: > > @JVJD.4912 said: > > and here i thought the duration of the spell needs to last longer cause most of the time its gets wasted > > > > Warriors have always sucked in pvp and are hardly represent in the legendary category, i think we can give them this niche to bridge that gap > > Always sucked in PvP? lol > > Warrior was meta many many times in PvP, just has a habit of going back and forth between gamebreaking and useless. Go look at the statistics for past pvp seasons in and tell me how many warriors were there in the legendary category? you can also dig the old forums posts in those seasons about how a warrior in your group has been viewed as a instant lose Don't know which game you are playing but its definitely not gw2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @mortrialus.3062 said: > > @CutesySylveon.8290 said: > > Spellbreaker does not get punished for missing FC, the evade frames are to thank for that. The worst thing to happen is you're both reset in the engagement. FC is at most on an 8 sec CD that takes one bar of adrenaline; you don't even need to turtle someone for something that readily available to come back. > > You are punished because you whiffed your most important attack. Same with any other attack. Fighting Games have survived for years with characters that have counter attack skills just like full counter without them breaking the game from Street Fighter, to Blaze Blue, to Dead or Alive to Smash Bros. I seriously hope you are not trying to compare punishing skills in fighting games like Tekken to this game. They are so vastly different that while the concept of punishing is something that can be done, the way they interact isn't even comparable. You are not punished for missing a FC; whiffing is not punishing because that took no input from another player to bring a negative effect for what you did. Counter attack skills are one thing, but the idea that this specific one is punishable is another, and it's not punishable. Not getting the effects of burst skills or damage etc because you missed a skill is no punishing because you don't lose things, you just don't gain them; big difference. If you were hurt when you whiffed FC, then that would be different, but all you lose is a bar of adrenaline, which is just a resource cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witcher.3197 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @JVJD.4912 said: > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > @JVJD.4912 said: > > > and here i thought the duration of the spell needs to last longer cause most of the time its gets wasted > > > > > > Warriors have always sucked in pvp and are hardly represent in the legendary category, i think we can give them this niche to bridge that gap > > > > Always sucked in PvP? lol > > > > Warrior was meta many many times in PvP, just has a habit of going back and forth between gamebreaking and useless. > > Go look at the statistics for past pvp seasons in and tell me how many warriors were there in the legendary category? you can also dig the old forums posts in those seasons about how a warrior in your group has been viewed as a instant lose > Don't know which game you are playing but its definitely not gw2 You said "always sucked" - for me "always" goes farther back than 1-2 seasons. Warrior was meta defining on several builds in the past - hambow, cele axe, shoutbow, gs/hammer, then with HoT condi longbow later gs mace. I love how warrior becomes bad for 1-2 seasons then gets the most broken build in the game and everyone's like "LOL IT'S FINE WAR WAS ALWAYS BAD WE NEED THIS". Fuck off dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukuni.8745 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 i got to page 2 of reading befor i decided to post this but yea. Leave FC alone, except make it only hit the target that triggered it, its the surviveability that makes SB strong not full counter, mind you full counter is retarded easy to trigger and anyone who says it isnt is just a really bad bandwagonner who likes to spam as much as the people hes saying is triggering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @ukuni.8745 said: > i got to page 2 of reading befor i decided to post this but yea. > Leave FC alone, except make it only hit the target that triggered it, its the surviveability that makes SB strong not full counter, mind you full counter is kitten easy to trigger and anyone who says it isnt is just a really bad bandwagonner who likes to spam as much as the people hes saying is triggering it. That would make Full Counter useless. If you go to use Full Counter on the target in melee, but someone at range or a minion triggers it (e.g. You go to Full Counter a Spellbreaker, but a Ranger arrow hits you)., then you've wasted Full Counter because the player who triggered it is not in range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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